iXTF.HSTATF.  COMMKHr 


I  MISSION 


KEPOI 


THE   UNIVERSITY 

OF   ILLINOIS 

LIBRARY 

385 

Un3lte 

COIP2. 


t 

6&ni  Congress!  SENATE  f  Documknt 

l  td  Session      f  I    No.  333 

f    ===================================  _^ 

TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BT 


INTEESTATE  COMMERCE  COMMISSION 


AT  MINNEAPOLIS,  MINN.,  DECEMBER  17,  18  AND  19,  1906,  AND 
AT  CHICAGO,  ILL.,  DECEMBER  20  AND  21,  1906, 


IN  THE  MATTER  OP 

CAR  SHORTAGE  AND  OTHER  INSUFFICIENT 
TRANSPORTATION  FACILITIES 


AND 


EEPOETS  THEEEON  BY  COMMISSIONEES  LANE  AND  HARLAN 


.  WASHINGTON 

GOVERNMENT  PRINTING  OFPICB 
V  1907 


THE  INTERSTATE  COMMERCE  COMMISSION. 


Hon.  MARTIN  A.  KNAPP,  of  New  York,  Chairman. 

Hon.  JUDSON  C.  CLEMENTS,  of  Georgia. 

Hon.  CHARLES  A.  PROUTY,  of  Vermont. 

Hon.  FRANCIS  M.  COCKRELL,  of  Missouri. 

Hon.  FRANKLIN    K.  LANE,  of  California. 

Hon.  EDGAR    E.  CLARK,  of  Iowa. 

Hon.  JAMES   S.  HARLAN,  of  Illinois. 

ED\A/^ARD   A.  MOSELEY,  Secretary. 


\ 


LETTER  OF  TRANSMITTAL. 


Interstate  Commerce  Commission, 

Wiishington,  February  19,  J907. 
Sir:  The  Interstate  Commerce  Coxmnission  has  the  honor  to  trans- 
mit herewith  in  response  to  resolution  of  the  United  States  Senate, 
dated  February  15,  1907,  a  transcript  of  the  testimony  recently  taken 
cj\3)  by  the  Commisssion  at  Minneapolis  and  Chicago,  respecting  the  short- 
age of  cars  for  the  movement  of  freight, 
f  Very  respectfully,  Martin  A.  Knapp, 

J-  Chairman. 

o         The  President  of  the  Senate  of  the  United  States. 

^  s 

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3780(>.' 


CAR  SHORTAGE  AND  INSUFFICIENT  TRANSPORTATION 

FACILITIES. 


United  States  Court  Room, 
Minneapolis,  Minn.,  December  17, 1906 — 10.05  a.  m. 

Commissioner  Lane.   Please  give  me  your  attention,  gentlemen. 

This  investigation  into  the  general  subject  of  car  shortage  is  under- 
taken upon  the  initiative  of  the  Intei"state  Commerce  Commission 
itself,  under  the  general  power  vested  in  that  body  by  section  12  of 
the  act  to  regulate  interstate  commerce,  and  related  sections  of  said 
act. 

The  inquiry  will  be  prosecuted  in  other  portions  of  the  country, 
but  it  is  appropriate  that  it  should  open  here,  because  it  was  prompted 
b^  the  facts  which  developed  at  the  hearing  recently  had  in  this 
city  covering  the  relations  of  the  grain  elevators  and  the  railroads, 
wherein  it  appeared  that  a  large  number  of  line  elevatoi-s  were  at 
that  time  filled  with  grain  and  had  been  closed;  that  the  grain 
buyers  had  in  some  cases  posted  notices  upon  their  elevators  stating 
that  they  could  no  longer  buy  grain  Decause  the  railroads  had 
failed  to  move  the  grain  already  on  hand,  and  that  as  a  result  many 
of  the  farmers  of  the  Northwest,  being  unable  to  market  their  crops, 
were  without  funds  to  meet  their  obligations  or  provide  against  the 
demands  of  the  oncoming  winter. 

A  controversy  arose  at  the  said  hearing  as  to  the  responsibility  for 
the  deplorable  conditions  then  prevailing.  On  the  part  of  the  rail- 
roads, Mr.  James  J.  Hill  presented  the  claim  that  the  terminal  ele- 
vators were  not  of  sufficient  capacity  for  the  needs  of  the  crops.  This 
view  was  controverted  by  Mr.  Heffelfinger,  representing  the  grain 
elevators,  who  cited  figures  showing  that  the  terminal  elevators  were 
almost  empty  and  had  been  so  throughout  the  ^rain-receiving  season. 

It  is  the  purpose  of  the  Commission  at  this  time  to  enter  fully 
into  the  conditions  and  i)ractices  respecting  the  movement  of  freight 
which  obtains  in  the  Northwest,  and  to  search  for  the  reasons  or 
causes  which  tend  to  justify  or  condemn  the  same.  We  wish  to  know 
whether  the  shipper  or  the  consignee  is  in  whole  or  in  part  to  blamt*, 
either  in  his  method  of  delivering  or  receiving  freight,  or  whether 
the  fault  lies  with  the  carriers,  because  of  eitner  their  indifference 
to  public  necessity,  their  lack  of  foresight  in  providing  necessary 
equipment  and  terminal  facilities,  or  their  too  great  regard  for 
interests  not  wholly  compatible  with  the  most  efficient  transporta- 
tion service.  We  wish  to  know  how  far  whatever  delinquencies  that 
are  apparent  may  be  excused  l)ocause  of  the  unparalloled  and  not  to 
be  expected  crop,  and  whether  all  reasonable  effort  was  made  to 
meet  the  ever-growing  demands  of  this  section  of  the  country.    We 

6 


6  CAB  SHOBTAGB. 

wish  to  learn  also  how  present  conditions  may  be  promptly  improve<l 
and  what  steps  have  been  taken  toward  effecting  such  improvement. 

And  it  is  further  desired  by  the  Commission  to  discover  whether 
conditions,  if  resulting  from  railroad  methods,  are  such  as  can  be 
remedied  by  the  carriers  themselves,  and  whether  such  is  their  de- 
termination, as  evidenced  by  policies  already  adopted  and  immedi- 
ately contemplated;  or  if  it  shall  be  necessary  to  advise  legislation 
by  the  Congress  which  will  insure  as  well  as  may  be  against  the 
recurrence  of  such  public  calamity  as  arises  from  so-called  car 
shortage. 

To  these  ends  the  Commission  had  had  a  corps  of  trained  investi- 
gators in  this  field  for  the  past  two  weeks  and  more,  who  have  re- 
ported not  only  an  inability  on  the  part  of  the  shipping  farmer  and 
country  dealer  to  secure  the  prompt  movement  of  his  freight  bound 
eastward  to  the  markets,  but  a  possibly  still  more  serious  misfortune 
in  the  inability  of  the  general  public  throughout  certain  portions  of 
the  Northwest,  especially  where  competitive  railroad  conditions  do 
not  exist,  to  secure  the  movement  of  coal  and  other  necessaries  which 
move  westward. 

This  present  hearing  will  therefore  proceed  to  develop  answers  to 
the  following  questions : 

1.  What  are  the  real  conditions  respecting  the  movement  of  freight 
in  the  States  of  Minnesota  and  North  and  South  Dakota  ? 

2.  Is  there  a  shortage  of  freight  cars  or  locomotives  in  the  roads 
serving  these  States ;  and  if  so,  has  all  practicable  been  done  to  over- 
come such  shortage? 

3.  Is  proper  and  profitable  use  made  of  all  cars  and  locomotives 
available  ? 

4.  Are  trains  so  made  up  and  operated  as  to  best  serve  the  interests 
of  the  public? 

5.  Is  it  within  the  power  of  the  railroads  to  remedy  the  present 
troubles  and  insure,  by  adopting  other  methods  of  handling  and 
interchanging  cars,  against  their  continuance? 

6.  What  legislation,  if  any,  would  serve  to  induce  the  more  prompt 
handling  of  freight  by  both  railroads,  shippers,  and  consignees  ? 

Mr.  John  H.  Marble  is  the  attorney  for  the  Commission,  represent- 
ing us  here. 

Air.  Marble,  you  may  call  vour  first  witness. 
Mr.  Masble.  I  will  call  ISlr.  Janmie. 

L.  T.  Jamme,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Janmie,  you  reside  in  the  city  of  Minneapolis? 

Mr.  Jamsie.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  secretary  of  the  chamber  of  commerce 
of  this  city  ? 

Mr.  Jam^fe.  I  am. 

Mr.  Marble.  AVhat  is  the  chamber  of  conmierce? 

Mr.  Jamme.  The  chamber  of  commerce  is  an  organization — a  vol- 
untary organization — consisting  of  individuals  engaged  in  dealing  in 
produce.  The  chamber  of  commerce  is  composed  primarily  of  indi- 
viduals— its  membership  is  individuals.  These  individuals  are  deal- 
ers, conmiission  men,  elevator  men,  millers,  and  brokers  in  mill 
products,  grain,  feed,  flour,  and  so  on. 


OAR  SHORTAGE.  7 

Mr.  Marble.  Practically  all  of  the  grain  trade  of  the  city  of  Minne- 
apolis is  done  through  your  exchange,  is  it  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Practically  so;  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  is  part  of  your  duty  as  secretary  to  keep  ac- 
count of  the  receipts  of  grain  in  this  market? 

Mr,  Jamme.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  From  year  to  year  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  have  done  so  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  vou  have  prepared  certain  comparative  sheets 
showing  the  receipts  for  this  year  as  compared  with  the  receipts  for 
other  years,  have  you? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yas,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  other  years  have  you  compared  those  figures 
with? 

Mr.  Jamme.  For  the  years  1905,  1904,  and  1903. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  comparison  is  month  by  month?  Is  that 
right  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Not  exactly,  Mr.  Marble.  The  comparison  I  have 
made  here  is  to  show  the  movement  of  all  kinds  of  grain  into  Minne- 
apolis during  the  first  three  months  of  the  crop,  September,  October, 
and  November  (I  have  not  gone  into  December)  as  compared  with  the 
total  movement  into  this  market  for  the  entire  crop.  It  makes  the 
comparisons  for  four  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  have  divided  those  figures  according  to  the 
railroads,  and  have  shown  what  each  of  the  railroads  has  done  for 
each  of  those  months  and  for  each  crop  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  year  did  you  begin  with? 

Mr.  Jamme.  I  began  with  the  year  1903. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  What  were  the  total  receipts  of  grain  in  this  market 
for  that  year? 

Mr.  Jamme.  The  total  receipts  of  grain  on  that  crop  of  1903? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  Jambie.  They  were  for  the  twelve  months  on  that  crop 
136,974,120  bushels. 

Mr.  JklARBLE.  And  for  the  three  months. 

Mr.  Jamme.  For  the  three  months — September,  October,  and  No- 
vember— the  total  receipts  of  all  grain  were  58,343,340  bushels. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  for  each  of  the  succeeding  years,  give  us  the 
similar  figures  showing  the  comparison. 

Mr.  Jamme.  The  total  receipts  of  grain  at  this  market  on  the 
crop  of  1904  were  139,333,200  bushels.  For  the  three  months  they 
were  61,330.460  bushels.  For  the  crop  of  1905,  the  total  receipts  were 
145,968,560  bushels.  For  the  three  months  they  were  66,197,190 
bushels.  For  the  crop  of  1906,  the  receipts  for  the  twelve  months — 
of  course,  I  can  not  give  it  so  as  to  make  a  comparison.  I  am  obliged 
to  take  the  three  months  of  Septemljer,  October,  and  November,  and 
then  estimate  the  other  nine  months  there  for  this  period  of  this  year. 
Is  that  clear? 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  clear.  It  is  an  estimate  for  the  year,  but  for 
the  three  months  you  have  the  exact  figures? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes,  sir. 


8  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  were  the  receipts  for  the  three  months  ? 

Mr.  Jam  ME.  They  were  42,983,220  busliels,  taking  the  first  three 
months  of  this  crop  year.  Using  the  nine  months  of  this  year — the 
preceding  nine  months — in  order  to  make  the  twelve  months,  we 
took  the  first  nine  months  and  the  total  receipts  were  138,423,290 
bushels. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  estimate  that  is  what  it  will  be? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes;  although  it  is  difficult  to  estimate  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  the  three  months — for  those  three  months  there 
you  might  say  that  you  were  24,000,000  bushels  short  in  this  market  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  As  compared  with  the  year  previous  we  were 
23 ,2 14,000  bushels  short  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  And  as  compared  with  two  years  ago,  you  are  about 
18,000,000  bushels  short? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes;  about  18,000,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  you  also  have,  as  secretary,  posted  daily  bul- 
letins of  vour  receipts,  have  you  not,  showing  the  comparison  of  the 
receipts  for  this  crop  year  with  the  corresponding  period  of  the  last 
crop  year  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  will  be  the  figures  for  to-day  on  that — about 
what  is  the  shortage  up  to  this  date  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  I  have  forgotten,  Mr.  Marble,  just  w^hat  those  figures 
are. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  in  the  neighborhood  of  20,000,000  bushels,  is 
it  not? 

Mr.  Jamme.  I  have  made  the  memorandum,  and  I  should  say  in 
the  neighborhood  of  20,000,000  bushels. 

Mr.  Marble.  Short  to-day  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  That  information  can  be  given  accurately.  I  would 
not  want  to  testify  to  that  as  being  correct. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  railways,  principally,  are  short  in  their  deliv- 
eries this  year  as  compared  with  their  deliveries  last  year. 

Mr.  Jamme.  Practically  all  of  the  lines  coming  to  Minneapolis. 
They  have  not  brought  as  much  grain  to  this  market  as  in  the  year 
previous,  with  the  exception  of  one  line.  Its  receipts  are  largely 
made  up  of  winter  wheat. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  line  is  the  Chicago  Great  Western  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes,  sir ;  that  line  is  the  Chicago  Great  Western. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  will  you  say  that  any  roads  in  particular  are 
responsible  for  the  deficit  in  the  market  as  shown  by  your  figures? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Our  figures  indicate  that  the  lines  which  deliver  the 
greatest  amount  of  grain  in  this  market — the  deficit  seems  to  be 
largely  with  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those,  of  course,  are  the  roads  running  to  the  North- 
west? 

Mr.  Jamme.  And  if  you  would  like  I  will  give  you  the  figures  or 
receipts  by  the  different  lines. 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes;  kindly  give  us  those  for  the  principal  lines. 

Mr.  Jamme.  The  Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul  received  during 
the  year  1903— the  crop  of  1903—31,401,830  bushels  of  all  grains, 
and  during  the  three  months,  September,  October,  and  November, 
their  receipts  were  11,471,200  bushels. 


OAB   SHORTAGE.  0 

For  1904  their  total  receipts  were  25,358,000  bushels;  during  the 
three  months  their  receipts  were  12,145.000  bushels. 

During  1905  their  total  receipts  were  28,560,000  bushels;  during 
the  three  months  their  receipts  were  14,000,000  bushels. 

In  1906 — muicing  the  same  comparison  as  I  did  before,  for  the  sake 
of  comparison — their  total  receipts  will  probably  be  26,931,000  bush- 
els, while  their  receipts  during  the  three  months  are  9,994,000  bushels; 
practically  10,000,000. 

The  Chicago,  St.  Paul,  Minneapolis  and  Omaha  Railway  received 
in  1903,20,594,000  bushels;  during  the  three  months, 9,060,000  bushels. 

In  1904  their  total  receipts  were  17,000,000  bushels;  during  the 
three  months  they  were  8,401,000  bushels. 

For  1905  the  total  receipts  were  19,503,000  bushels;  during  the 
three  months  they  were  10,145,000  bushels. 

For  1906,  estimated,  their  total  receipts  were  22,375,000  bushels; 
during  the  three  months  they  were  7,834.000. 

For  tlie  Minneapolis  and  St.  Louis  the  total  receipts  for  1903  were 
practically  7,909,000;  during  the  three  months  thev  were  2,620,000. 

During"  1904,  total  receipts  7,897,000,  as  compared 'with  3,429,000. 

During  1905  their  total  receipts  were  7,169,000,  as  compared  with 
8,395,000.     You  understand  the  way  I  am  giving  you  these  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Jamme.  In  1906,  estimated,  the  total  receipts  were  5,546,000, 
as  against  1,809,000  for  the  three  months. 

For  the  Wisconsin  Central  for  the  year  1903  the  total  receipts 
were  1,450,000,  as  compared  with  522,000. 

For  1904  the  total  receipts  were  211,000,  as  compared  with  8,000. 

The  Wisconsin  Central  lines  are  east  from  here. 

In  1905  the  total  receipts  were  293,000,  as  compared  with  10,000. 

In  1906,  estimated,  the  total  receipts  were  425,000,  as  compared 
with  8,000. 

Now,  take  the  Great  Northern.  The  total  receipts  for  the  year 
1903  were  42,561,000,  as  compared  with  19,094,000  for  the  three 
months. 

For  1904  the  total  receipts  were  48,242,000,  as  compared  with 
18,139,000  for  the  three  months. 

For  1905  the  total  receipts  were  60,982,000,  as  compared  with 
20,265,000  for  the  three  months. 

For  1906,  estimated,  the  total  receipts  were  45,188,000,  as  compared 
with  11,012,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  to  say,  for  the  three  months  of  crop  year 
last  year  the  Great  Northern  shipped  20,265,000  in  those  three  months 
and  in  this  year  11,012,000? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  a  9,253,000  deficit  is  to  be  found  there? 

Mr.  Jamme.  I  will  say  that  their  usual  receipts  for  the  three 
months  are  about  40  per  cent  of  the  crop  that  moves  during  the 
three  months,  and  this  year  the  percentage  is  24  per  cent  during  the 
three  months. 

Now,  take  the  Northern  Pacific  Railway.  For  the  year  1903  the 
total  receipts  were  8,344,000,  as  compared  with  4,865,000  for  the 
three  months. 

For  1904  the  total  receipts  were  13,007,000,  as  compared  with 
6,244,000  for  the  three  months. 


10  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

For  1005  the  total  receipts  were  12,139,000,  as  compared  with 
6,082,000  for  the  three  months. 

For  1906,  estimated,  the  total  receipts  were  9,598,000,  as  against 
2,552,000  for  the  three  months. 

The  Chicago  Great  Western's  total  receipts  for  1903  were  6,177,000, 
as  compared  with  2,027,000  for  the  three  months. 

For  1904  their  total  receipts  were  5,721,000,  as  against  2,424,000 
for  the  three  months. 

For  1905,  4,789,000,  as  compared  with  1,000,000  for  the  three 
months.  That  is,  in  reality,  for  the  three  months  they  were  1,709,000 
bushels. 

For  1906,  estimated,  the  total  receipts  were  5,992,000,  as  compared 
with  3,175,000  for  the  three  months. 

Those  receipts  are  largely  made  up  of  winter  wheat,  which  varies 
a  great  deal. 

Now,  take  the  Chicago,  Burlington  and  Quincy.  Their  total  re- 
ceipts during  the  year  1903  were  3,959,000  bushels,  as  compared  with 
934,000  bushels  for  the  three  months. 

For  1904  their  total  receipts  were  2,671,000  bushels,  as  compared 
with  725,000  for  the  three  months. 

For  1905  their  total  receipts  were  2,390,000,  as  compared  with 
589,000  for  the  three  months. 

Now,  the  estimated  total  receipts  for  1906  are  572,700,  as  compared 
with  69,000  for  the  three  months. 

The  Soo  Line's  total  receipts  for  the  year  1906  were  11,314,910; 
during  the  three  months,  6,450,000. 

Mr.  Marble.   1903,  don't  you  mean? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes;  1903.  There  were  total  receipts,  11,314,910,  and 
the  receipts  for  the  three  months,  6,450,000. 

For  1904  the  total  receipts  were  14,909,000  bushels;  during  the  three 
months  they  were  7,410,000  bushels. 

During  1905  the  total  receipts  were  16,548,000  bushels,  as  against 
8,693,000  bushels  for  the  three  months. 

For  1906,  estimated,  the  total  receipts  were  19,147,000  bushels,  as 
against  5,246,000  for  the  three  months. 

The  Chicago,  Rock  Island  and  Pacific's  total  receipts  for  1903 
were  3,260,000  bushels,  as  compared  with  1,296,000  for  the  three 
months. 

For  1904  their  total  receipts  were  4,049,000,  as  compared  with 
2,097,000  for  the  three  months. 

For  1905  their  total  receipts  were  3,586,000,  as  compared  with 
1,928,000  for  the  three  months. 

For  1906,  estimated,  the  total  receipts  for  the  year  were  2,643,000, 
as  compared  with  1,281,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  the  crop  to  the  south  of  Minneapolis  this  year 
been  a  fair  average  crop,  in  your  estimation,  from  your  advices  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  As  far  as  our  advices  indicate,  Mr.  Marble,  in  this 
southern  Minnesota  territory  the  weather  conditions  have  militated 
against  the  crop  during  the  harvest*  season  to  a  large  extent,  so  that 
possibly  it  would  be  a  fair  statement  to  make  that  our  crop  move- 
ment from  there  this  year,  in  total  bushels,  will  not  probably  be  as 
great  into  this  market  as  a  year  ago. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  the  crop  to  the  north  and  northwest;  is  that  a 
fair  average  crop  ? 


OAB  SHORTAGE.  11 

Mr.  Jamme.  I  think  I  am  safe  in  testifying  that  in  total  bushels  to 
move  on  that  crop  of  1906  that  the  volume  should  be  as  great  if  not 
greater  than  for  1905. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  much  greater? 

Mr.  Jamme.  That  would  be  impossible  to  state,  your  Honor. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Can  jou  not  approximate  it? 

Mr.  Jamme.  From  all  advices  we  can  receive  from  elevator  compa- 
nies and  others,  who  were  in  a  position  to  judge,  undoubtedly  the  total 
crop  in  northwest  and  northern  Minnesota  and  North  Dakota  will  be 
at  least  in  total  bushels  as  great  as  for  the  year  1905,  but  it  will  be 
impossible  now  to  state  the  volume.  The  wheat  has  probably  in- 
creased considerably,  but  it  is  a  problem  this  year  as  to  tne  concfition 
of  other  crops,  as  to  how  much  will  actually  he  marketed.  I  do  not 
think  that  anyone  would  be  in  a  position  to  state  accurately  as  to 
that  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  North  Dakota  alone.  Can  you  state  as  to  the 
crop  there,  whether  it  will  be  greater  or  less  than  last  year? 

Mr.  Jamme.  I  have  not  seen  any  advices,  Mr.  Marble,  that  would 
justify  a  definite  opinion  on  that.  I  think,  however,  that  it  would  be 
safe  to  assume  that  there  would  be  as  much  gi*ain  to  move  from  North 
Dakota,  if  not  more.  Certain  indications  indicate  a  larger  yield  this 
year  than  last. 

Mr.  Marble.  Certainly  you  could  say  that  there  is  no  failure  in 
crop  to  explain  that  failure  in  movement? 

Mr.  Jamme.  It  would  be  safe  to  say  that  there  was  no  such  basis. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  acquainted  with  the  elevator  conditions  in 
this  terminal,  are  you  not? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  say  whether  or  not  the  elevators  are  at  this 
point  responsible  for  the  delay  in  the  transportation  by  their  slowness 
m  unloading  cars? 

Mr.  Jamme.  I  think  I  am  safe  in  testifying,  Mr.  Marble,  that  the 
elevators  here  are  unloading  what  cars  are  set  at  their  houses  with 
dispatch.  There  undoubtedly  does  not  exist  any  delay  in  unloading 
cars  coming  to  the  elevators  in  Minneapolis. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  any  complaints  come  to  you  that  there  was 
delay  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  None. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  part  of  your  business,  to  keep  track  of  the 
cars  that  come  into  the  city,  is  it  not,  and  to  know  where  they  are 
set  and  how  long  it  takes  to  unload  them  into  the  elevators  ? 

Mr.  Jamme,  I  do  not  go  into  the  details  of  that  character,  but  one 
of  my  duties  is  to  see  that  our  business  here  is  handled  as  promptly  as 
possible. 

The  chamber  of  commerce  uses  its  efforts  to  secure  the  prompt 
movement  of  business  here  as  far  as  it  can,  in  the  interest  of  its 

Catrons,  as  well  as  its  own.     Necessarily,  the  prompt  handling  of 
usiness  here  is  an  advantage  to  this  market. 

Mr.  Marble.  These  figures  you  have  prepared — ^you  have  made 
those  up  from  your  Chamber  o^  Commerce  records? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes,  sir.     Now  there  is  tJie  question  of  grain  in  store. 
Mr.  Marble.  If  you  will  kindly  tell  us  the  amount  of  grain  in 
store  at  Minneapolis  last  year,  as  compared  with  this  year  at  this 
time? 


12  OAB  SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Jamme.  The  total  number  of  bushels  in  store  on  the  13th  of 
this  last  month,  1906,  was  7,245,095.  On  December  16,  1905,  we  had 
17,207,852  bushels  in  store.  On  December  17, 1904,  we  had  21,857,599. 
In  1903,  we  had  13,707,720. 

Mr.  Maiujle.  I  will  ask  that  these  figures  be  made  an  exhibit  to 
Mr.  Jamme's  testimony  and  tiled  in  the  record. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1 
to  Mr.  Jamme's  testimony.") 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know^  what  the  entire  crop  of  the 
Northwest  was  for  1903 — whether  there  are  any  official  figures  show- 
ing that? 

Mr.  Jamme.  I  can  give  that,  your  Honor,  partly  from  memory 
and  what  I  happen  to  have  here. 

The  crop  of  the  three  States  is  estimated  by  the  Government — 
their  final  estimate — I  think  I  have  a  memorandum  on  those  sheets 
I  was  using. 

(Securing  papers  desired.) 

The  final  estimate  of  the  Government  for  the  year  1903,  in  the 
three  States,  for  all  grain,  was  452,472,060  bushels. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  three  States? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Minnesota,  North  and  South  Dakota. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Now,  for  the  year  1904  and  the  year  1905, 
what  are  3^ our  advices  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  In  1904  it  was  468,390,803  bushels  for  the  three  States, 
and  in  1905  the  official  estimate  was  536,906,073  bushels. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  There  has  been  no  estimate  for  this  year? 

Mr.  Jamme.  There  has  been  no  estimate. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  it  your  understanding  that  this  year  is 
a  record  year  in  crops  ? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Early  conditions  indicated  that.  That  was  somewhat 
reduced  by  unfavorable  weather  conditions  during  the  harvest  season, 
so  that,  perhaps,  a  conservative  statement  would  be  to  the  effect  that 
we  have  about  the  same  crop  in  volume  as  we  had  last  year  in  the 
three  States. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

The  witness  was  excused. 

H.  B.  MooRE,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified  as 
follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Moore,  you  reside  in  the  city  of  Duluth  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  secretary  of  the  board  of  trade  of  that 
city? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  duties  are  to  keep  track  of  the  grain  receipts 
at  that  point,  among  other  things? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  prepared  figures  from  your  records  show- 
ing receipts  this  year  as  compared  with  previous  years?" 

Mr.  Moore.  I  nave. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  have  them  with  you? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  will  you  let  me  see  them  ?    Can  you  give  us  the 


GAB  SHOBTAGB.  13 

receipts  for  1903,  1904,  1905,  and  1906  in  the  manner  given  by  Mr. 
Jamme? 

Mr.  Moore.  Our  crop  year  at  Duluth  varies  from  the  Minneapolis 
crop  year,  I  think.  We  start  with  the  1st  of  August,  and  the  state- 
ment I  have  here  of  receipts  of  grain  for  the  years  1903,  1904,  1905, 
and  1906,  to  date,  are  figures  from  the  1st  of  August  to  date. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  wUl  you  read  those? 

Mr.  MooRE.  In  1903  tlie  number  of  cars  received  was  45,383;  in 
bushels,  44,403,863. 

In  1904  there  were  43,027  cars,  or  43,340,000  bushels. 

In  1905  the  cars  received  were  45,655,  and  in  bushels  50,272,000. 

In  1906,  from  August  1  to  December  13,  there  were  48,104  cars 
received,  or  54,120,811  bushels. 

Mr.  JMarble.  Now,  can  you  give  us  the  receipts  last  year  for  each 
period  corresponding — from  August  1  to  December  13 — so  as  to  make 
a  comparison? 

Mr.  Moore.  We  received  50,000,000  bushels,  in  round  numbers,  in 
1905,  and  54,000,000  in  1906  for  the  same  |)eriod. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  Duluth  has  received  about  4,000,000  bushels 
more  than  last  year? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  that  excess  made  up  of  durum  grain  ?  Of  what 
does  that  excess  consist  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  think  the  durum  wheat  made  quite  a  large  increase, 
being  about  12,000,000,  I  think,  on  this  crop,  against  some  7,000,000 
on  the  crop  of  1905.     That  is  my  recollection. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  you  say  you  have  received  more  or  less  spring 
wheat  this  year  than  you  did  for  the  shipping  season  last  year? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  can  not  say  positively,  but  I  should  think  less. 

Mr.  Marble.  Most  of  the  durum  wheat  is  shipped  abroad,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  wheat  consumed  at  Buffalo  and  eastern 
markets  coming  from  Duluth  would  be  the  spring  wheat? 

Mr.  Moore.   Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  think,  then,  that  of  the  wheat  consumed  in 
this  country  you  have  received  less? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  the  cars  loaded  more  heavily  this  year  than  they 
have  been  in  past  years  [handing  pa|>er  to  witness]  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  think  the  average  bushelase  per  car  of  wheat  in  1905 
was  957  bushels.  In  1906  it  was  1,036  busliels.  Com  is  a  little  less; 
oats  a  little  less ;  rye  is  greater ;  barley  is  greater,  and  flax  is  greater. 

Mr.  Marble.  Heavier  cars? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Heavier  loads. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  you  have  compiled  these  figures — what  do  these 
figures  show?     To  what  do  they  relate  [indicating]  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  In  1898  there  was  the  largest  crop  we  ever  received  at 
Duluth.  The  receipts  for  the  calendar  year  amounted  to  100,000,000 
bushels,  and  during  the  period  mentioned,  August  1  to  December  13 
of  that  year,  the  number  of  cars  received  was  79,220,  with  62,000,776 
bushels. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  have  the  same  railroads  then  as  now? 

Mr.  Moore.  Practically. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  communications  with  you,  addressed  to 


14  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

you  by  members  of  your  organization,  relating  to  the  movement  of 
cars,  have  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Let  me  see  those.  [The  witness  hands  papers  to  Mr. 
Marble.] 

Have  you  had  considerable  trouble — you  and  members  of  your 
board  of  trade — in  getting  the  delivery  of  cars  shipped  from  the 
country  this  year  ? 

Mr.  AlooRE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  has  been  your  trouble  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  Well,  that  is  hard  to  tell. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  trouble  was  you  could  not  get  the  cars,  was  it 
not? 

Mr.  MooRE.  The  trouble  was  that  a  long  time — a  seemingly  un- 
reasonable time — elapsed  between  the  date  of  shipment  and  the  de- 
livery of  cars  to  the  elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  there  one  company  only  that  suffered  from  that, 
or  the  entire  market  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  The  entire  market,  I  think. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  the  delay  in  getting  the  car  into  Duluth,  or  in 
spotting  it  at  the  elevator  after  arrival  in  the  yards  at  Duluth;  or 
do  you  know  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  I  think  both ;  in  getting  the  cars  to  Duluth,  and  after 
they  were  brought  there — the  yards  were  in  somewhat  of  a  congested 
condition. 

Mr.  JVIarble.  You  have  communicated  with  the  railroad  officials  of 
your  city  regarding  that  congestion,  have  you  not? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  this  a  copy  of  a  letter  which  you  sent,  prepared  by 
you  ?     [Hands  paper  to  witness.] 

Mr.  Moore  (examining  paper).  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  is  a  letter  sent  to  the  agents  of  the  Great  North- 
em,  the  Northern  Pacific,  and  the  Omaha  Railway,  and  is  as  follows 
[reading] : 

Duluth  Boabd  of  Trade, 

Secketaby's  Office, 
Duluth,  Minn.,  November  20,  1906. 

Sent  to  agents  Great  Northern  Railway,  Northern  Pacific  Railway,  Omaha 
Railway. 

Deab  Sib  :  The  grain  dealers  on  this  board  are  confronted  with  this  proposi- 
tion, which  to  them  is  an  exceedingly  important  and  serious  one,  viz,  they 
have  cars  en  route  to  the  head  of  the  Lakes  and  also  on  track  here  that  have 
been  here  twentj'  days,  and  many  a  longer  period.  These  cars  they  are  unable 
to  have  transferred  to  the  elevators.  Further,  that  much  of  this  grain  is  sold 
on  contract  for  November  delivery,  and  in  consequence  of  inadequate  facilities 
or  other  reasons  on  the  part  of  the  railroads  these  dealers  are  compelled  to 
suifer  a  great  loss. 

Is  it  not  possible  for  your  road  to  take  prompt  and  Immediate  action  to 
avoid  a  further  loss  to  our  dealers?  We  think  such  action  on  j'our  part 
imperative  and  due  to  the  shippers  and  receivers  of  grain  here.  It  seems  to  us 
that,  knowing  as  you  did  in  advance  that  there  was  a  large  crop  to  handle,  you 
have  been  derelict  in  your  duty  as  common  carriers  in  not  making  proper  pro- 
vision for  delivery  of  the  grain. 

Hoping  that  this  will  be  received  In  the  spirit  In  which  It  Is  sent  and  that  an 
immediate  remedy  will  be  applied,  we  remain. 
Respectfully, 

Duluth    Boabd  of  Trai«, 
By  H.  B.  MooBE,£r6cretar]/. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  15 

I  will  ask  that  that  be  put  in  the  record  and  marked  as  Exhibit  1 
to  Mr.  Moore's  testimony. 

(Received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1  to  Mr.  Moore's 
testimony.") 

Mr.  Marble.  You  received  replies,  did  you  not,  from  railroad 
officials  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  a  copy  of  a  reply  received  from  the  superin- 
tendent of  the  Northern  Pacific  Railroad  at  your  city  [handing  paper 
to  witness]  ? 

Mr.  Moore  (examining  paper).  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  copy  was  made  by  you,  was  it  not? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  read  the  letter.     [Reading:] 

DuLUTH,  Minn.,  November  21,  IDOG. 
Board  of  Trade, 

II.  D.  Moore,  Secretary,  Duhtth: 

This  will  ncknowledge  your  fnvor  of  the  20th  Instnnt  relative  to  handling 
all  grain  destined  to  head  of  Lakes.  The  Northern  Pacific  Railway  certainly 
appreciate  the  serious  condition  and  the  importance  of  moving  promptly  all 
prain  to  the  head  of  the  Lakes  and  placing  it  to  the  elevators.  I  think  you  are, 
however,  in  error  in  stating  that  many  cars  have  l)een  lying  in  the  Duluth 
yard  for  the  past  twenty  days  and  that  further  investigation  will  develop  the 
fact  that  these  oars  have  not  yet  reached  Duluth,  but  are  en  route.  I  can 
assure  you  personally  and  officially  that  we  will  do  everything  In  our  power 
to  see  that  you  are  given  the  best  possible  service,  as  it  is  certainly  to  our 
Interest  as  well  as  yours  to  move  the  cars  promptly  and  have  them  unloaded 
and  returned  for  another  car  of  grain.  The  elevatoi-s,  to  the  best  of  my 
knowledge,  have  been  doing  splendid  work  during  the  entire  fall,  being  willing 
to  work  on  Sundays  when  required  and  have  been  taking  care  of  the  grain 
very  promptly  that  has  been  delivered  to  them. 

Again  assuring  you  personally  and  on  the  part  of  the  Northern  Pacific  of 
our  hearty  cooperation  to  the  fullest  extent,  I  am, 
Youi-s,  very  resi)ectfully, 

E.  C.  BuiNcnABD,  Superintendent. 

I  Mill  ask  that  that  be  put  in  the  record  and  marked  " Exhibit  No.  2 
to  Mr.  Moore's  testimony." 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  2  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 

Commissioner  Lane.  Did  j'ou  find  out  whether  your  statement  or 
the  superintendent's  was  correct  as  to  those  cai-s  being  on  the  way 
twenty  days? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  compared  with  the  agent  of  the  Northern  Pacific. 
In  comparing  the  cars  received  by  that  road,  he  informed  me  that 
the  difference  between  his  figures  and  mine  must  bo  accounted  for  in 
the  cars  in  transit. 

Commissioner  Lane.  By  what? 

Mr.  Moore.  That  it  must  be  accounted  for  by  the  cars  in  transit 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  did  you  make  any  personal  investi- 
gation around  the  yards  at  Duluth  to  ascertain  yourself,  or  have  any- 
one do  it,  to  ascertain  the  number  of  cars  on  tracks  tliere  for  any  given 
time  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Not  personally ;  no,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Did  you  have  anyone  do  it  for  you? 

Mr.  Moore.  No,  sir. 

Conmiissioncr  Harlan.  In  other  words,  arc  you  f-epared  now  to 


16  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

say  that  at  any  given  time  there  Trere  a  great  many  cars  on  the  tracks 
at  Duluth  that  ought  to  have  been  switched  over  to  the  elevators  and 
were  not  in  the  proper  time? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  know  that  it  was  common  talk  with  the  members  on 
the  floor  of  the  exchange  that  there  were  a  great  many  cars  that  they 
could  not  get  disposition  of  or  delivery  at  the  elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  was  the  talk  that  that  delay  was  before  the  cars 
reached  Duluth  or  after  they  came  into  Duluth,  or  was  it  both? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Both. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  this  a  copy  of  a  letter  received  from  the  superin- 
tendent of  the  Great  Northern  Railway  [exhibiting  letter  to  witness]  ? 

Mr.  MooRE  (examining  paper).  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  read  the  letter.     [Reading:] 

SuPEEioB,  Wis.,  November  22,  1906. 
Mr.  H.  B.  Moore, 

Secretary  Duluth  Board  of  Trade,  Duluth,  Minn. 

My  Dear  Sir:  Answering  yours  of  the  20tli,  I  regret  being  obliged  to  confess 
that  our  Superior  cTud  Duluth  yards  are  very  badly  congested  by  reason  of  a 
big  increase  in  business,  which  consists  not  so  much  of  the  inbound-grain  busi- 
ness as  it  does  of  the  outbound  coal  and  merchandise  business,  taxing  our  yard 
facilities  to  their  utmost. 

At  this  time  of  the  year  and,  perhaps,  especially  this  year,  we  have  a  good  deal 
of  trouble  to  secure  sufficient  train  men  to  handle  our  yard  work.  We  have 
power  enough  and  nearly,  if  not  quite,  cars  enough,  and  are  making  every  pos- 
sible effort  to  straighten  things  up  by  delivering  the  old  eastbound  loads  and 
sending  out  the  old  westboimd  loads — that  is,  we  are  making  a  special  effort 
to  move  delayed  cars.  I  think  we  are  in  a  little  better  shape  now  than  we 
have  been  for  some  time  and  hope  to  make  still  further  improvement  to-morrow 
and  later. 

The  congestion  In  our  yard  is  not  entirely  our  fault,  but,  to  some  limited 
extent  the  result  of  congestion  in  the  yards  of  neighboring  railways.  I  think 
the  Northern  Pacific  and  the  Omaha  Railway  are  in  about  as  bad  condition  as 
ourselves.  I  assure  you,  however,  that  we  are  sparing  no  efforts  and  no  ex- 
pense to  bring  about  better  conditions. 

There  may  be  a  grain  of  comfort  in  the  knowledge  that  we  are  planning  to 
make  extensive  improvements  in  our  yard  just  as  soon  as  the  work  can  be  done 
next  spring,  which,  I  hope,  will  put  us  in  shape  to  avoid  trouble  of  this  kind 
another  year. 

In  closing  I  wish  to  thank  yourself  and  other  members  of  the  board  for 
being  so  patient  with  us  in  our  troublesome  times  and  plead  for  further  in- 
aulgcuce  for  a  couple  of  weeks. 

Yours,  truly,  D.  M.  Philbin, 

Assistant  General  Superintendent. 

Mr.  IMarble.  I  will  ask  that  this  be  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  3  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony." 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  3  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  date  of  that  letter? 

Mr.  Marble.  November  22.  [Addressing  witness.]  Did  you  re- 
ceive replies  from  another  railroad  company  than  these  two* 

Mr.  Moore.  I  received  a  verbal  reply  from  the  Omaha. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  was  that  verbal  reply? 

Mr.  Moore.  That  they  had  made  a  clean  up  of  nearly  all  of  the 
cars  in  their  yards.  By  way  of  explanation,  it  Avould  be  well  to  say 
that  tlicy  handle  but  a  few  cars  of  grain  at  Duluth,  at  the  best,  and 
the  whole  of  them  would  not  congest  a  very  large  yard. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  address  any  communication  to  the  Soo  Rail- 
way? 


CAB  SHOBTAGB.  17 

Mr.  Moore.  No;  for  the  reason  that  the  Xorthem  Pacific  handled 
the  Soo  and  Milwaukee  business  principally. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  elevators  at  that 
point  have  made  delays  in  unloading  cars  this  year? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  think  the  revei-se  is  true — that  they  have  not 

Mr.  Marble.  The  statement  made  in  that  letter  is  correct,  then, 
is  it,  that  they  have  handled  cars  promptly  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  letters^  written  you  as  secretary,  by  grain 
commission  merchants  of  your  city? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  figures  attached  are  made  up  by  your  mem> 
bers? 

Mr.  MooHE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Relating  to  the  length  of  time  cars  were  moved  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  have  here  a  letter  dated  Duluth,  Minn.,  December 
15,  1906,  to  H.  B.  Moore,  secretary,  city,  and  it  is  as  follows: 

Dbab  Sib  :  There  has  been  more  or  less  talk  and  discussion  in  regard  to  cars 
being  delayed  in  transit  this  last  fall  and  we  wish  to  give  yoxi  a  few  of  the 
cases  that  happened  to  cars  handled  by  us.  In  some  cases  the  loss  to  the 
shipper  was  considerable.  The  delay  was  not  all  before  Inspection,  as  list 
No.  2  will  show  several  cars  from  inspection  to  imloadiiig  more  than  two  weeks. 
List  No.  3  will  show  a  few  cars  shipped  during  November  that  have  not  been 
inspected  at  this  date. 

Yours,  truly,  McKindlet  &  Nicholls. 

"Where  are  the  cars  inspected  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  At  Cass  Lake,  Sandstone,  and  Staples. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  from  Duluth? 

Mr.  Moore.  Sandstone  is  probably  50  miles — I  do  not  know  the 
distance.  Cass  Lake,  I  do  not  know  the  distance;  probably  50  or  75 
miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  Staples  is  about  how  far  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  Staples  would  be  a  little  farther  than  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  hundred  miles? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  the  reference  to  inspection  means  that  the 
grain  was  all  that  length  of  time  in  going  50  or  75  or  100  miles,  or 
thereabouts  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  read  just  a  few  of  the  detentions  of  the  cars. 

The  attached  sheets  show  the  date  insjiected,  when  unloaded,  the 
initial,  the  number  of  the  car,  and  the  elevator. 

Here  is  one  inspected  November  7,  unloaded  November  26.  Here 
is  another  inspected  November  7  and  unloaded  November  24.  Here 
is  another  inspected  November  7  and  unloaded  November  27.  Here 
is  one  inspected  the  8th  of  November  and  unloaded  the  28th  of  No- 
vember. Here  is  one  inspected  November  12  and  unloaded  December 
4.  Here  is  another  inspected  November  14  and  unloaded  December 
1.  Another  inspected  November  30  and  unloaded  December  14. 
Then  again  here  is  one  insp)ected  October  15  and  unloaded  October 
80.  Here  is  another  inspected  on  the  19th  and  unloaded  November 
S.  Doc.  833, 59-2 2 


18  CAB  SHOBTAOB. 

28.  Here  is  one  inspected  the  20th  of  October  and  unloaded  No- 
vember 3.  Then  here  is  one  inspected  the  21st  of  October  and  un- 
loaded the  14th  of  November.     And  so  you  will  find  it  on  down. 

Where  does  this  grain  come  from — entirely  from  North  Dakota  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  I  think  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  here  is  the  date  advised  of  shipment,  the  date 
inspected,  the  initial,  and  the  car  number.  Here  is  one  where  the  date 
advised  of  shipment  is  November  6,  which  was  not  yet  inspected. 
Then  here  is  one,  advised  of  shipment  November  17,  three  cars,  which 
were  not  yet  inspected.  Then  here  is  one  of  November  24,  which  was 
not  yet  inspected.  I  will  ask  to  have  this  put  in  the  record  and 
marked  "  Exhibit  No.  4  to  Mr.  Moore's  testimony." 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  4  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  I  have  a  statement  which  was  furnished  you  as 
secretary  by  the  Minnesota  Grain  Company. 

Mr.  Moore.  I  think  it  was.     [Reading :] 

This  company  has  between  thirty-five  and  forty  thousand  bushels  of  flax 
loaded  at  pyder,  Douglas,  and  Plaza,  in  the  Soo  line.  It  was  loaded  in  the 
middle  of  November  and  in  plentj-  of  time  to  get  it  in  on  November  sales,  but 
up  to  December  12  the  cars  were  still  on  track  at  the  stations,  loaded,  and  no 
prospect  of  getting  them  moved.  Customers'  losses  over  $2,000  on  this  lot 
alone. 

There  are  here  several  elevator  companies  at  various  places  show- 
ing the  cars  they  shipped,  etc. 

Minot  station,  N.  Dak.,  on  the  Soo  and  Great  Northern  lines  has  received 
482,000  bushels  of  grain  up  to  December  1,  and  on  that  date  had  none  left  in 
the  stations.  All  had  been  shipped  out,  showing  cars  were  plenty  at  competitive 
points.  The  Robinson  Elevator  there  received  75,000  bushels  on  the  Great 
Northern  and  got  every  bushel  loaded  out,  so  he  could  get  it  on  November  sales. 

Now,  there  are  some  figures  relating  to  the  handling  of  the  cars  on 
the  Soo  road,  the  Great  Northern,  and  so  on.  I  will  read  just  a  few 
of  those. 

The  cars  and  numbers  are  given  in  each  instance. 

The  Soo  shipped  from  Ransom,  N.  Dak.,  a  car  on  September  9, 
which  was  unloaded  in  Duluth  October  2. 

The  Soo  also  shipped  a  car  from  Columbus,  N.  Dak.,  on  September 
12,  which  arrived  in  Duluth  November  10. 

The  Soo  also  shipped  a  car  from  Columbus,  N.  Dak.,  on  September 
18,  which  arrived  at  Duluth  October  25. 

The  Soo  also  shipped  a  car  from  Kermit,  N.  Dak.,  on  September  19, 
which  arrived  in  Duluth  October  24. 

It  also  shipped  a  car  from  Columbus,  N.  Dak.,  on  September  18, 
which  arrived  in  Duluth  on  October  29. 

The  Great  Northern  shipped  a  car  from  Granville,  N.  Dak.,  Sep- 
tember 21,  which  arrived  in  Duluth  October  28. 

There  are  a  great  number  of  other  cars  with  their  numbers  given 
there. 

I  will  ask  that  these  sheets  be  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  5  to  Mr. 
Moore's  testimony." 

(The  same  are  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  5  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  19 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  another  letter.     [Reading]  : 

DuLUTH,  Minn.,  December  15,  1906. 
H.  B.  Moore.  Esq., 

Secretary  Board  of  Trade,  DuUith,  Minn. 
Deab  Sib:  Attached  please  find  a  list  of  cars  shipped  to  me  on  various  roads, 
showing  the  date  of  shipment,  shipping  ix>int,  car  number,  date  unloaded  at 
elevator,  and  the  numl>er  of  days  these  cars  were  In  transit.  All  the  cars  in- 
cluded In  the  list  were  twenty  days  or  over  on  the  road  to  Duluth,  and  the 
facts  I  furnish  j'ou  are  true  to  my  best  knowledge  and  beUef.  I  have  several 
other  cars  at  the  present  time,  which  have  been  in  transit  over  twenty  days 
and  not  yet  heard  from.    I  am, 

Yours,  truly,  William  Dalbymfle. 

Following  is  a  list  of  cars  covering  about  a  page  and  a  (juarter, 
very  finely  written ;  probably  forty.  These  show  date  of  shipment, 
the  North  Dakota  point  of  origin,  the  car  number,  the  day  unloaded, 
and  the  numlwr  or  days  in  transit.  The  number  of  days  in  transit 
run  all  the  way  from  twenty,  twenty-two,  twenty-three,  thirty-three, 
thirty-five,  thirty-seven,  forty,  forty-seven,  twenty-three,  twenty- 
eight,  fifty-four,  fifty-nine,  forty,  twenty-three,  thirty-five,  and  so 
on  down.  The  smalLast  seems  to  be  twenty  or  twenty-one,  and  tho 
longest  fifty-eight  or  fifty-nine. 

Commissioner  Lane.  ^Miat  would  be  the  total  length  of  that  haul? 

Mr.  Marble.  The  names  of  the  points  are  given  here.  They  are  ail 
North  Dakota  points,  and  I  would  rather  look  it  up  exactly  before 
attempting  to  answer. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  I  would  like  to  know  the  average  on 
that  list  and  the  haul  per  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  ask  that  this  be  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  6  to  Mr. 
Moore's  testimony." 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  6  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 

Mr.  Marble.  This  is  another  letter  received  by  you  [handing  paper 
to  witness]  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  read  it.    [Reading]  : 

The  Gbain  Pboducebs  Elevatob  Compant, 

Duluth,  Minn.,  December  15,  1906. 
Mr.  H.  B.  Moose, 

Secretary  Duluth  Board  of  Trade,  Duluth,  Minn. 
Deab  Sib:  You  requested  us  this  a.  m.  to  make  you  a  statement  of  the  cars 
we  have  had  delinquent  In  reaching  their  destination.  While  we  could 
enumerate  at  least  20  cars  which  have  been  out  in  this  crop  twenty  days 
and  over  after  having  l)een  ordered  to  their  destination  by  us.  we  will  only 
call  your  s|KH'ial  attention  to  Soo  car  No.  10!>48,  loaded  with  barley,  which  was 
ordered  to  elevator  "  T "  at  Superior  on  November  7.  IIKK],  to  the  Globe 
Elevator  at  Su|>erlor  and  we  re<'elved  the  unload  on  the  above-named  car  ftn 
the  13th  day  of  December.  As  you  will  note,  this  car  was  thirty-six  daj^i  in 
getting  a  little  over  2  miles.  This  is  the  worst  case  I  think  we  have  had,  and 
the  only  case  which  we  wish  to  call  your  attention  to. 
Very  truly,  yours, 

Gbain  Pboducebs'  Elevatob  C!o. 

I  will  ask  that  the  same  be  put  in  the  record  and  marked  "  Exhibit 
No.  7  to  Mr.  Moore's  testimony." 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  7  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 


20  CAB  SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  have  a  number  of  other  letters  of  the  same  purport. 
I  want  to  put  them  in  just  as  rapidly  as  I  can.  All  of  these  letters 
were  received  by  you  as  secretary  of  the  Duluth  Board  of  Trade? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  a  letter  from  Randall-Gee  &  Mitchell,  of 
Duluth,  Minn.,  dated  December  15, 1906,  which  is : 

H.  B.  Moore, 

Secretary,  Duluth  Board  of  Trade,  Duluth,  Minn. 

Deab  Sib:  Complying  with  your  request,  we  attach  herewith  a  list  of  cars, 
giving  car  initial  and  niunber,  point  of  shipment,  date  of  shipment,  and  date 
of  arrival  in  Duluth. 

In  making  up  this  list,  we  have  not  included  any  car  that  was  less  than 
fourteen  days  in  transit.  We  could  give  you  a  very  long  list  if  we  included  all 
cars  that  were  ten  days  and  over  on  the  road. 

Yours,  very  truly,  Randaix-Gee  &  Mitchell. 

There  are  cases  shown  in  which  this  company  was  advised  of  ship- 
ments on  the  ninth  month  and  the  fifth  day,  which  arrived  the  same 
month  and  the  twenty-seventh  day.  Then  there  is  delay  from  the 
tenth  month  and  first  day  to  the  tenth  month  and  seventeenth  day, 
the  tenth  month  and  tenth  day  to  the  tenth  month  and  twenty-fifth 
day,  from  the  eleventh  month  and  fifteenth  day  to  the  twelfth  month 
and  tenth  day,  and  so  on.  The  information  is  given  on  the  sheet 
attached  to  the  letter,  and  I  will  ask  that  these  papers  be  put  in  and 
marked  "  Exhibit  No.  8  to  Mr.  Moore's  testimony. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  8 
to  ^Ir.  Moore's  testimony.") 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  a  letter  from  H.  Poehler  Company,  Duluth, 
Minn.,  dated  December  15,  1906,  addressed  to  H.  B.  Moore,  secretary, 
which  says: 

Herewith  please  find  list  of  cars  showing  date  of  shipment  and  time  of  arrival 
and  unloading  at  Duluth. 

It  gives  the  date  of  the  bill  of  lading,  the  initial  of  the  car, 
the  car  number,  the  station,  and  the  date  of  unloading.  Here  is  one 
that  was  billed  the  ninth  month  and  thirteenth  day,  and  unloaded 
October  15. 

Here  is  one  of  the  tenth  month  and  twenty-ninth  day,  unloaded 
November  26. 

Here  is  one  of  the  tenth  month  and  twelfth  day,  Clark,  S.  Dak.,  on 
the  Omaha,  unloaded  November  26. 

And  the  last  one  is  the  tenth  month  and  second  day,  Soo  car, 
Drake,  N.  Dak.,  which  had  not  arrived  December  14.  I  will  ask  that 
this  be  put  in  the  record  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  9  to  Mr.  Moore's 
testimony." 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  9  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Moore,  did  vou  make  anv  complaint 
to  the  carriers — to  the  railroad  companies  about  these  delays  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  Nothing  except  what  you  heard  in  that  letter  I  wrote 
them. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  I  want  to  get  at  is  this,  did  you  get 
from  the  railroad  companies  any  explanation  of  the  delays  on  par- 
ticular shipments?  I  heard  what  you  said  about  the  congestion  in  the 
yards.    But  these  particular  shipments  in  here  where  delays  extend 


OAR   SHOBTAGB.  21 

from  twenty-one  to  fifty-eight  days — did  you  get  any  explanation 
from  the  raihoad  companies,  as  to  the  delay  in  any  particular  case? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  did  not.  I  think  the  men  handling  the  cars  attended 
to  that  part  of  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  a  letter  from  the  Atwood-Larson  Company, 
of  Duluth,  Minn.,  dated  December  15,  190G,  to  Mr.  H.  B.  Moore, 
secretary,  city. 

Deab  Sib:  As  |)er  your  request  we  attach  partial  list  of  cars,  which  we  con- 
sider were  an  unreasonable  len);th  of  time  in  transit.    With  a  very  few  excep- 
tions we  have  made  no  mention  of  cars  which  were  not  thirty  days  or  more  In 
transit.    To  the  best  of  our  knowledge  and  belief,  the  lists  are  correct 
Yours,  truly, 

AtWOOD-LaBSON  Ck>UPANT, 

By  H.  J.  Atwood, 

President. 

The  list  follows,  as  in  the  papers  before,  and  here  is  a  car  shipped 
November  16,  Maddock,  N.  Dak.,  not  yet  delivered. 

Here  is  one  of  November  10,  Battle  Lake,  twenty-five  days  in 
transit. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  take  the  last  instance.  Can  you  tell 
me  what  the  normal  time  is ;  what  time  in  other  years  has  that  same 
road  taken  to  transport  freight  from  one  point,  from  that  particular 
point  to  Duluth? 

Mr.  Moore.  It  would  only  be  an  opinion  that  grain  delivery  from 
Dakota  points  within  ten  days  would  be  within  a  reasonable  time. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Normally  in  1905,  and  in  1904,  and  the  pre- 
ceding years,  it  would  take  about  ten  days'  time,  whereas  this  year  it 
has  taken  twenty  to  twenty-five  days? 

Mr.  MooRE.  tt  has  taken  a  great  deal  more  time  than  in  some 
years? 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  one  car  forty-one  days  in  transit  from  Wil- 
ton, and  another  forty-four  days  in  transit  from  Wilton.  Then  there 
is  one  on  November  28  from  Sneyenne,  not  delivered  yet.  November 
24,  November  28,  again,  December  5,  December  10,  December  11;  all 
of  them  not  delivered  yet.  The  second  list  shows  cars  on  the  way 
from  thirty-eight  days  to  sixty  days,  from  North  Dakota  points; 
and  another  list,  which  is  a  list  of  cars  shipped  during  the  season  of 
190G-7,  forty-two  days  down  to  thirty-two  days;  and  cars  that 
were  shipped  in  November  which  have  not  yet  been  delivered,  Novem- 
ber 13,  etc.  I  will  ask  that  the  same  be  put  in  the  record  and  marked 
Exhibit  No.  10,  to  Mr.  Moore's  testimony. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  10, 
to  Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  a  statement  from  the  John  Miller  Company, 
ffrain  commission,  of  Duluth,  Minn.,  dated  December  15,  1906,  to 
Mr.  Moore,  secretary,  Duluth,  which  says: 

In  reply  to  your  Inquiry  regarding  the  time  of  cars  of  grain  on  the  road  after 
shipment,  we  give  you  the  following  figures. 

He  shows  580  cars  received  previous  to  November  24;  there  were 
318  received  at  Duluth  ten  days  or  less  after  shipment,  214  in  ten  to 
twenty  days  after  shipment,  37  in  twenty  to  thirty  Javs  after  ship- 
ment, 2  in  thirty-three  days  after  shipment,  1  in  thirty-five  days 
after  shipment,  2  in  thirty-six  days  after  shipment,  1  in  forty-one 


22  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

days  after  shipment,  1  in  forty-five  da;^s  after  shipment,  1  in  forty- 
seven  days  after  shipment,  1  in  forty-nine  days  after  shipment,  1  in 
fifty-two  days  after  shipment,  1  in  seventy  days  after  shipment. 

Of  these  376  were  unloaded  in  five  days  or  less  after  arrival,  153 
in  six  to  ten  days,  32  in  eleven  to  fifteen  days,  14  in  sixteen  to  twenty 
days,  3  in  twenty-two  days,  1  in  twenty-eight  days,  and  1  in  twenty- 
nine  days. 

I  will  ask  that  this  be  put  in  the  record  and  marked  "  Exhibit 
No.  11  to  Mr.  Moore's  testimony." 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  11  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  here  is  a  letter  of  the  same  tenor  from  Freemire, 
Remund  &  Co.,  dated  December  15,  1906,  which  I  ask  to  have  put  in 
the  record  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  12  to  Mr.  Moore's  testimony." 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  12  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  here  is  one  from  Arbogast  &  Ball,  dated  Decem- 
ber 15,  1906,  inclosing  a  list  of  cars  which  they  consider  have  been 
delayed  an  unreasonable  length  of  time. 

I  ask  that  this  be  put  in  evidence  and  marked  as  an  exhibit  to  Mr. 
Moore's  testimony. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  13  to 
Mr.  Moore's  testimony.") 

Commissioner  Harlan.  "WTiat  is  the  scope  of  that  lot  of  cars  you 
have  given — the  number  of  days  after  arrival  ?  Does  that  mean  that 
the  elevator  delayed  in  unloading  the  cars,  or  was  the  delay  in  switch- 
ing the  cars? 

Mr.  Marble.  The  time  is  after  inspection.  It  might  be  a  delay  in 
moving  into  Duluth  or  in  the  yard  in  Duluth  or  at  the  elevator  in 
unloading.  We  will  have  testimony  later  of  railroad  men,  and  we 
will  have  other  witnesses,  I  presume,  as  to  whether  this  delay  was  in 
the  yard  of  the  company  or  between  the  point  of  shipment  and 
Duluth,  which  I  thyik  will  bring  it  out  fully. 

Mr.  Moore.  I  think  it  is  both  places. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  have  you  another  list  of  figures  you  have  pre- 
pared ? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  have  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  made  any  investigation  so  that  you  know 
the  reason  of  these  delays  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  IMr.  Moore,  have  you  stated  what  the  total 
elevator  capacity  of  Duluth  is  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  'fhirty-four  millions. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  on  any  given  date  in  this 
month  what  the  actual  number  of  bushels  in  the  elevators  was,  say, 
Deceml>er  13;  do  you  happen  to  know? 

Mr.  MooRE.  I  know  that  night  before  last  there  were  1,000,000  bush- 
els of  wheat  and  1,000,000  bushels  of  flax  in  the  elevators.  Those 
were  the  two  largest. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  was  the  total  number  of  bushels  of 
all  sorts  of  grain  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  No ;  wheat  and  flax. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  23 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Can  you  give  any  general  idea  of  the  total 
number  of  bushels,  including  all  grain  in  the  elevators,  night  before 
last? 

Mr.  MooRE.  No;  I  could  not. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Would  it  be  under  6,000,000? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  They  have  approximately  30,000,000  capacity 
not  in  use? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Not  quite  as  much  as  that.  The  total  capacity  in  all 
the  elevators  at  the  head  of  the  Lakes  is  34,000,000. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  there  would  be  28,000,000  difference. 

Commissioner  Hari^n.  Now,  do  you  know  what  the  present  con- 
ditions of  the  country  elevators  are  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  I  do  not. 

Commiasioner  Harlan.  Have  you  any  understanding  about  it — do 
you  understand  whether  they  are  full  or  empty? 

Mr.  MooRE.  I  understand  that  in  some  places  they  are  full  and 
that  grain  is  piled  up  outside. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Grain  that  would  naturally  come  to  your 
market  if  there  were  cars  to  move  it? 

Mr.  MooRE.  A  good  deal  of  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  vou  have  any  idea  what  the  number  of 
bushels  is  in  that  territory,  the  grain  in  the  country  now,  waiting 
to  be  moved  to  vour  market? 

Mr.  MooRE.  There  have  been  various  estimates  of  the  crop.  The 
early  estimates  have  been  reduced  somewhat.  It  would  be  a  hard 
matter  at  this  time  to  estimate  the  amount  in  the  shippers  hands. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  seems  to  you  to  be  a  conservative 
estimate,  from  all  the  information  you  have,  as  to  the  amount  of 
grain  in  country  elevators  and  piled  up  outside  waiting  to  be  moved 
toDuluth? 

Mr.  MooRE.  I  hardly  dare  to  make  an  estimate. 

Commi5»ioner  Harlan.  Can  you  tell  us  some  of  the  estimates  you 
have  heard,  from  reputable  sources? 

Mr.  MooRE.  I  have  heard  this,  that  there  was  probably  upward  of 
30  per  cent  of  their  grain  yet  in  the  farmers'  hands,  or  in  the  elevatoi*s 
in  the  country. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  you  mean  grain  that  is  ready  to 
move  when  cars  are  supplied  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Does  that  seere  to  you  to  be  a  conservative 
estimate  from  all  the  information  you  have? 

Mr.  M(x)RE.  Fairly  so. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  it  your  understanding  that  the  amount 
of  grain  held  in  the  country  at  this  time  is  in  excess  of  the  normal 
amount  in  other  vears  at  this  same  period  ? 

Mr.  Moore.  Tfiat  is  my  impression ;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  Mr.  Moore,  I  would  like  to  know 
whether  there  is  a  general  complaint  at  the  country  elevators  tribu- 
tary to  your  market  of  the  failure  of  railroads  to  supply  cars  to  move 
grain  from  them? 

Mr.  M(K)RE.  I  think  there  is  quite  a  general  complaint  of  that 
character. 


24  CAB  SHOBTAGB.      • 

G)mTnissioner  Harlan.  Now,  is  there  any  general  excuse  that  is 
given  by  the  railroads — any  general  explanation  for  their  failure  to 
supply  cars?  Do  they  say  they  have  not  cars  or  locomotives,  or  what 
do  they  say  ? 

Mr.' Moore.  I  think  that  question  is  answered  quite  fully  in  the 
letters  addressed  to  me  by  the  agents  of  the  Northern  Pacific 

Commissioner  Harij^n.  In  a  particular  case? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Not  in  particular  cases,  I  do  not  think. 

Mr.  C.  W.  BuNN.  I  represent  the  Northern  Pacific  and  I  would 
like  to  ask  a  few  questions,  if  j'ou  please. 

Commissioner  Lane.  All  right. 

Mr.  Bunk.  Mr.  Moore,  you  have  shown  that  the  elevators  at  Duluth 
are  about  empty  now  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  And  when  did  navigation  close  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  I  think  the  boats  were  loaded  up  to  about  the  11th 
or  l-2th. 

Mr.  BuNN.  The  11th  or  12th  of  December? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Buxx.  What  was  the  condition  of  your  elevators  during  the 
month  of  November? 

Mr.  MooRE.  They  were  receiving  and  shipping  all  the  time. 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  did  the  amount  of  grain  compare  then  with  what 
it  is  since  navigation  closed? 

Mr.  MooRB.  I  do  not  know.     I  could  not  give  that  to  you. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  said  there  were  about  6.000,000  bushels  there  now  ? 
Is  that  a  fair  showing  of  what  there  was  during  November  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  There  was  a  large  shipment  of  grain  during  November. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Was  not  there  very  much  more  grain  in  your  elevators 
for  the  month  of  November  than  since  the  boats  have  stopped 
running? 

Ml".  MooRE.  Possibly. 

Mr.  Marble.  iVIr.  Moore,  there  has  been  a  spread  in  the  price  of 
grain  between  Minneapolis  and  Duluth  all  this  season,  has  there  not  ? 

Mr.  MooRE.  I  could  not  tell  you. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  has  not  grain  been  worth  more  in  Duluth  than 
Minneapolis? 

Mr.  Moore.  I  could  not  tell  you. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  The  Duluth  grain  moves  out  over  the 
Lakes  usually,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  MooRE.  Most  of  it. 

Conmiissioner  Harlan.  Is  there  any  shipment  by  rail  to  Chicago? 

Mr.  MooRE.  That  is  a  comparatively  small  amount. 

Commissioner  Harlax.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Moore. 

The  witness  was  excused. 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  Call  your  next  witness. 

George  Spencer,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified 
as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  president  of  the  Duluth  Board  of  Trade, 
are  you,  Mr.  Spencer  ? 
Mr.  Spencer.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Marble.  And  also  in  the  grain  business! 


OAB  SHORTAGE.  25 

Mr.  Spencer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  You  have  terminal  elevators  at  Duluth  and  Superior! 

Mr.  Spencer.  I  am  interested  in  some. 

Mr.  Marble.  Interested  in  the  business? 

Mr.  Spencer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  have  you  country  elevators? 

Mr.  Spencer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Line  elevators? 

Mr.  Spencer.  Nothing  we  operate. 

Mr.  Marbiji.  You  receive  shipments  from* the  country? 

Mr.  Spencer.  To  some  extent.  We  are  large  receivers — grain 
shipping  merchants. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  buy  on  the  floor? 

Mr.  Spencer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  tell  whether  or  not  the  elevators  at  Duluth 
and  Superior  have  made  delays  in  unloading  cars  this  season? 

Mr.  Spencer.  I  do  not  think  they  have  ever. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  heard  no  complaint? 

Mr.  Spencer.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  your  elevators  made  any  delay  f 

Mr.  Spencer.  They  have  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  have  not? 

Mr.  Spencer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  figures  as  to  the  amount  stored  given  by  Mr. 
Moore ;  are  they  correct  as  far  as  you  know  ? 

Mr.  Spkxcer.  I  do  not  know  what  the  amounts  were.  I  do  not 
think  at  any  time  during  the  fall  there  was  more  than  ten  or  twelve 
millions  of  bushels  of  grain  in  store  in  the  elevators  and  the  amount 
is  a  good  deal  less  now,  because  the  shipping  season  is  over. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  less  in  the  elevators  now  than  the  normal 
amount  at  this  time  of  the  year  ? 

Mr.  Spencer.  I  do  not  think  there  is. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  the  same? 

Mr.  Spencer.  About  the  same,  I  think. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  Duluth  elevators  are  cleared  out  as  far  as  pos- 
sible before  navigation  closes,  and  then  they  fill  up  afterwards,  as 
grain  comes  in  for  shipment  out  in  the  spring? 

Mr.  Spencer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Grain  that  comes  into  Duluth  after  the  close  of 
navigation  remains  over  until  the  navigation  season  opens? 

Mr.  Spencer.  Most  of  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Some  goes  out  on  the  Omaha  road? 

Mr.  Spencer.  A  very  little. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  a  little  on  the  Soo? 

Mr.  Spencer.  A  very  little. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  very  small  by  your  company  ? 

Mr.  Spencer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Duluth  is  a  storage  point  after  navigation  closes? 

Mr.  Spencer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  grain  been  worth  more  this  .season  in  Duluth 
than  in  Minneapolis  f 

Mr.  Spencer.  I  think  it  has,  a  little.  Wheat  has  sometimes  been 
worth  half  a  cent  to  a  cent  more,  but  as  a  general  thing  the  Minne- 
apolis rates  have  been  fully  equal  to  ours. 


26  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  the  cars  shipped  to  you  come  through  in  good 
time? 

Mr.  Spencer.  We  have  a  good  deal  of  delay. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  at  what  points  these  delays  were  made? 
Whether  before  coming  into  the  Duluth  yards  or  after  arrival  ? 

Mr.  Spencer.  I  think  there  has  been  more  or  less  delay  in  starting 
from  the  originating  stations  and  delays  along  the  roads. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  you  say  applies  to  delays  in  the  terminals 
as  well? 

Mr.  Spencer.  There  has  been  considerable  delay  in  the  terminals. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  you  say  applies  to  shipments  received  over 
every  road? 

Mr.  Spencer.  The  principal  delay — the  principal  grain  we  get  is 
over  the  Great  Northern  and  the  Northern  Pacific  and  the  Soo,  al- 
though the  Soo  road  grain  is  handled  either  by  the  Great  Northern 
or  the  Northern  Pacific  and  is  brought  in  over  one  or  the  other  of 
those  roads,  and  there  is  where  the  principal  complaint  is  made  as 
against  those  three  roads — because  they  have  handled  more. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  this  complaint  has  been  as  to  the  slowness  of 
movement,  has  it? 

Mr.  Spencer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  well  as  inability  to  get  cars  to  put  the  grain  into  ? 

Mr.  Spencer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  anything  you  wish  to  offer  ? 

Mr.  Spencer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Mr.  Bunn,  do  you  wish  to  ask  any  questions? 

Mr.  Bunn.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Spencer. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  wish  to  say  at  this  time  that  if  there  are 
any  attorneys  for  the  railroad  here  who  desire  to  interrogate  any  of 
these  witnesses  they  are  quite  at  liberty  to  do  so. 

Now,  Mr.  Marble,  call  your  next  witness,  please. 

O.  G.  Major,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  at  Hope,  N.  Dak.? 

Mr,  Major.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  ^Larble.  And  you  are  president  of  the  Minnesota  Farmers' 
Exchange  ? 

Mr.  Major.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  exchange  is  an  organization  of  elevators — 
farmers'  elevators — is  it  not? 

Mr.  Major.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  where  have  you  elevators  ? 

Mr.  Major.  We  have  some  five  in  Minnesota.  We  have  one  at 
Pettit,  down  here,  Elko,  Long  Prairie,  Brownsville,  and  Ashby. 
That  is  all  that  we  conduct.  Then  we  have  stock  in  a  good  many 
elevators  in  North  Dakota.  I  think  there  are  about  27  in  North 
Dakota. 

Mr.  Marble.  Twenty-seven  points  in  North  Dakota?  , 

Mr.  Major.  Yes,  sir.     Local  elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  roads? 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  2^ 

Mr.  Major.  Most  of  them  are  on  the  Great  Northern.  Some  are 
on  the  Soo,  and  some  are  on  the  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  tlie  conditions  at  those  country 
elevators  ? 

Mr.  Major.  Pretty  fairly;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  conditions  at  other  points 
in  North  Dakota  ? 

Mr.  Major.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  travcliufj  recently? 

Mr.  Major.  I  have  traveled  some  in  the  last  two  or  three  weeks. 

Mr.  Marble.  Over  what  portions  of  the  State  of  North  Dakota? 

Mr.  Major.  I  have  been  up  on  the  Soo — as  far  as  possible  on  the 
Soo — and  on  the  Anita  branch,  and  to  the  end  of  the  line.  Nobody 
trails  very  much  there  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  situation  so  far  as  the  coal 
supply  is  concerned  ? 

Mr.  Major.  I  am,  to  some  extent,  at  certain  points. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  what  points? 

Mr.  Major.  Well,   for  instance,  at  Hope  and  Anita   and   other 
points  where  they  write  to  me  about  it.     We  have  no  coal  or  wood  in , 
Hope  at  all  at  present.     I  got  a  notice  this  morning  by  telephone  to 
try  and  ^et  them  coal  at  Duluth.    There  is  none  there  unhjss  they 
have  got  it  there  since. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Hoav  far  is  that  from  here? 

Mr.  Major.  About  300  miles. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  much  of  a  community  is  it? 

Mr.  Major.  A  thousand  people. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  are  they  doing  for  fuel? 

Mr.  Major.  Us  fellows  that  had  it  laid  .in  divided  up  with  the 
fellows  that  haven't  got  it.  We  have  been  doing  that,  and  when  we 
get  it  all  divided  up  I  suppose  we  will  have  to  quit. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  the  country  around  that  point — the  farm- 
ers?    Have  they  fuel? 

Mr.  Major.  No.  We  had  a  carload  in  the  hotel,  and  my  boys  have 
been  distributing  it  out  to  farmers,  and  that  is  very  nearly  gone,  and 
I  got  a  telephone  this  morning  to  go  to  Duluth  to  see  if  I  could  get 
some  coal  in  some  way  or  other. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  the  farmers  bum  coal  ? 

Mr.  Major.  Coal  and  wood. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  have  you  done  with  the  railroad  com- 
pajiv  to  ask  them  to  get  in  the  coal  ? 

Mr.  Major.  They  don't  bring  any.  We  have  our  coal  dealer  there, 
who  is  a  man  that  is  in  the  coal  business,  and  I  guess  he  is  about  as 
good  as  any  of  them  there,  and  he  tells  us  that  he  has  30  or  40  cars 
ordered  and  has  had  them  ordered  for  the  last  two  or  three  months. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Ordered  from  where? 

Mr.  Major.  From  Duluth. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  your  only  source  of  supply,  is  it? 

Mr.  Major.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  reason  do  they  give  for  not  delivering? 

Mr.  Major.  They  don't  give  any.  We  don  t  know  why  they  don't 
put  it  in.  They  simply  claim  they  can't  get  it.  They  are  bringing  up 
empty  cars,  however,  right  along  by  us  there. 


28  OAB   SHORTAGB. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  where  those  empty  cars  are 
destined  ? 

Mr.  Major.    What? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  yon  know  where  the  empty  cars  are 
destined  ? 

Mr.  Major.  They  drop  some  at  the  other  stations.  They  drop 
some  of  them  there  at  those  other  stations,  and  while  they  may  not 
be  very  many,  they  are  enough  to  supply  us  with  coal  if  they  bring 
them  lull.    I  understand  there  is  no  shortage  of  coal  in  Duluth. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  anybody  besides  this  one  coal  dealer 
in  vour  town?  Has  anybody  else  made  an  application  for  coal  in 
Duluth? 

Mr.  Major.  Of  course,  they  are  not  in  the  coal  business  and  there 
would  be  no  use.  I  ordered  a  couple  of  carloads  of  coal,  and  we 
could  not  buy  it,  and  they  told  me  that  they  would  not  sell  me  a  car- 
load of  coal. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  just  what  do  you  mean? 

Mr.  Major.  I  ordered  two  or  three  carloads  of  coal  and  the  man 
in  Duluth  would  not  sell  me. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  answer  did  he  give  you  ? 

Mr.  Major.  He  wrote  me  and  wanted  to  know  if  I  was  a  dealer. 
And  of  course  I  wrote  him  back  and  told  him  that  I  was  not,  and 
then  he  said  that  he  could  not  ship  me  because  he  had  to  ship  to  his 
dealers  and  protect  his  regular  coal  dealers. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  have  only  one  retail  dealer  there  ? 

Mr.  Major.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  he  has  made  demand  for  30  or  40  cars, 
and  had  his  order  in  two  or  three  months  ago  ? 

Mr.  Major.  Yes,  sir ;  he  has  had  the  coal  ordered  for  about  two 
months,  and  he  can't  get  it  in,  and  we  can't  get  wood  in  there. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  get  wood  from  Duluth  ? 

Mr.  Major.  The  wood  comes  from  here  in  Minnesota;  from  these 
stations  along  here  and  down  the  line. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  this  a  competitive  point  of  yours,  or  is 
there  only  one  railroad  in  there? 

Mr.  Major.  One  railroad  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  any  place  near  there  that  is  competi- 
tive? 

Mr.  Major.  Nothing  within  40  miles. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  is  on  the  Great  Northern,  is  it? 

Mr.  Major.  The  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  described  the  fuel  condition  at  Hope. 
What  is  the  condition  at  other  points  which  you  are  acquainted  with  ? 

Mr.  Major.  I  understood  from  some  fellows  that  came  down  on  the 
train  with  me  Wednesday  that  on  the  branch  they  were  short  of  coal 
and  short  of  fuel. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  understand  that  there  is  any  suffering? 

Mr.  Major.  Oh,  no;  I  do  not  know  as  there  is  yet.  Some  of  us 
folks  were  short  of  kerosene.  They  didn't  have  a  bit  of  kerosene  over 
there  when  I  left  there,  but  I  got  word  that  a  tank  had  come  in  since 
I  left.  There  was  not  a  barrel  of  kerosene  in  town  last  week.  We 
have  kerosene  there  now,  but  if  we  have  fuel  we  can  sit  in  the  dark 
and  we  don't  mind  that. 


OAR   SHORTAGE.  29 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  why  the  dealers  don't  order  coal  in  the 
summer  months  so  as  to  have  a  supply  on  hand  ? 

Mr.  Major.  I  want  to  say  for  our  man  there  that  he  ordered  this 
coal  early  and  he  usually  does.  Now.  I  am  satisfied  that  this  man 
that  deals  in  coal  there  has  had  his  order  in  there,  but  he  has  told  us 
all  the  time  that  he  could  not  get  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  conditions  at  competitive 
points? 

Mr.  Major.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  there  is  any  difference  in  the 
service  given  at  a  competitive  point  and  a  noncompetitive  point? 

Mr.  Major.  Nothing  but  what  a  man  told  me  about  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  was  that? 

Mr.  Major.  Thev  claim  that  at  these  competitive  points  they  have 
not  had  much  trouble. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  there  any  elevators  in  which  you  are  interested 
located   at  competitive   points? 

Mr.  Major.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  give  any  comparison  of  the  service  given  you 
at  competitive  points  as  compared  with  that  at  noncompetitive  points? 

Mr.  Major.  At  the  competitive  points  we  don't  experience  much 
difficulty  in  getting  rid  of  the  wheat. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  your  elevators  ? 

Mr.  Major.  That  is  where  there  is  two  roads,  you  know;  I  have 
had  no  complaint  there. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  are  your  elevators  blocked  at  all  at  noncompeti- 
tive points  ? 

Mr.  Major.  They  are  blocked  all  winter. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  ship  also  machinery  and  live  stock,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Major.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  the  cars  move  promptly  for  you — the  cars  you  are 
interested  in — after  being  loaded  ? 

Mr.  Major.  In  the  live-stock  business? 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  live  stock  first. 

Mr.  Major.  I  could  ship  a  carload  of  wheat  from  my  elevator — 
my  place — get  it  to  Dulutn  and  get  the  returns  back  in  a  little  over 
thirty  days — it  would  take  about  that  time  to  make  the  returns. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  wheat.     How  about  live  stock? 

Mr.  Major.  I  have  had  lots  of  trouble  with  live  stock. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  trouble — is  it  in  getting  into  the  market? 

Mr.  Major.  Well,  we  have  had  carloads  of  stock  from  my  town 
being  held  up  fortv-eight  to  sixty-two  hours  in  getting  into  St.  Paul. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^Vhat  is  the  distance? 

Mr.  Major.  Three  hundred  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  quickly  has  any  train  come  for  you  ? 

Mr.  Major.  I  do  not  think  I  could  get  in  here  under  twenty-four 
hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  made  it  in  twenty- four? 

Mr.  Major.  I  think  one  or  two  times. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  consider  that  fair  time? 

Mr.  Major.  That  would  be  fair  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  has  been  your  experience  with  your  ship- 
ments— how  about  your  machinery  ? 


30  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Major.  Well,  we  have  had  less  delay  on  machinery.  We  have 
not  had  much  trouble  on  that,  I  think. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  shipments  of  stock,  do  they  make  up  trains — 
stock  trains  exclusively,  and  put  it  through  as  through  freight? 

Mr.  Major.  Not  as  a  rule. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  as  a  rule? 

Mr.  Major.  They  have  a  regular  stock  train  that  runs  certain  days 
of  the  week  from  Minot.  We  are  cut  out  at  Casselton,  which  is  on 
our  branch,  and  then  our  fellows  run  into  Casselton  and  have  to  stay 
over  all  night. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  do  they  have  to  wait  over  all  night  ? 

Mr.  Major.  Because  there  is  no  extra  train  to  connect  with  and 
we  have  to  wait  th6re  until  some  train  comes  along  and  picks  us  up. 
Ten  of  us  fellows  laid  over  there  all  one  night  in  Casselton,  when  we 
were  right  in  a  blizzard,  with  stock,  and  we  were  expecting  to  catch 
an  extra  train.    But  we  did  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  did  you  have? 

Mr.  Major.  We  had  ten. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  why  did  they  not  put  an  engine  on  the  ten  cars 
and  haul  it  out? 

Mr.  Major.  Mr.  Hill  don't  do  that  kind  of  business.  He  is  haul- 
ing tonnage.  We  did  ask  to  have  them  put  an  engine  on  and  haul  it, 
and  they  said  that  they  were  going  to  send  one  up  there  and  we 
waited  all  night  but  they  didn't  do  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  understand  that  you  say  that  you  were  to  have  an 
engine  and  that  you  did  not  get  it  ? 

Mr.  Major.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  limit  of  time  that  cattle  may  be  kept  in 
the  cars,  according  to  the  law  ? 

Mr.  Major.  I  understand  the  Minnesota  law  is  twenty-four  hours. 
I  can  not  tell  you  what  the  Dakota  law  is  on  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  a  time  have  cattle  been  kept  in  cars  in  the 
last  year? 

Mr.  Major.  I  have  shipped  some,  but  I  could  not  actually  tell  you 
how  long  a  time  they  were  kept  in. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  inability  to  furnish  transportation — does  it 
affect  all  country  grain  dealers  alike,  or  was  it  inore  injurious  to  one 
class  than  another? 

Mr.  Major.  I  do  not  know ;  the  farmers'  elevator  men  have  been — 
we  have  been  having  the  most  trouble. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  is  that? 

Mr.  Major.  As  a  rule — we  have  got  the  largest  elevator  on  the  line ; 
and,  of  course,  at  these  points,  where  there  are  big  elevators,  we  get 
most  of  the  grain.  Our  elevator  companies  feel  as  great  a  demand 
for  cars  as  anybody;  then  we  got  our  proportion  of  cars  cut  to  one 
apiece  a  day.  I  will  tell  of  my  town.  Personally,  I  have  got  an 
interest  in  an  elevator  there.  Our  elevator  is  about  as  big  as  any- 
body else's  in  town,  and  we  got  cut  to  one  car;  consequently  our' 
competitors  filled  up,  and  they  do  just  as  large  a  business  as  they 
can  do;  if  we  could  get  cars  to  get  this  stuff  out,  we  could  do  two 
to  three  ti.ues  as  much  business  as  any  other  elevator  in  that  town. 
We  can  not  do  any  more  business,  because  we  can  not  get  our  share  of 
the  cars  in  proportion  to  the  amount  of  business  we  do. 


CAB   SHOBTAGE.  31 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  eflfect  upon  the  price  paid  to  the 
farmers? 

Mr.  Major.  It  has  made  about  2  cents  a  bushel  difference. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  put  any  grain  on  the  ground? 

Mr.  Major.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much? 

Mr.  Major.  About  3,000  bushels  on  when  the  snow  fell. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  what  point? 

Mr.  Major.  Hope. 

Mr.  Marble.  "\\  ill  grain  stored  on  the  ground  be  injured  by  the 
elements  ? 

Mr.  Major.  Well,  no;  not  overly  much.  It  is  owing  to  the  nature 
of  the  weather.  You  can  put  corn  in  a  round  pile  right  easy  if  it 
does  not  snow  too  much.  In  such  a  pile  a  few  inches  on  the  bottom 
will  be  lost,  and  excessive  rain,  of  course,  damages  it.  It  is  not  a 
good  place  to  put  it. 

Mr.  Marbij:.  Have  you  had  trouble  in  getting  through  the  Minne- 
sota Transfer  with  shipments  of  stock? 

Mr.  Major.  Delays  in  shipping? 

Mr.  Marbi^.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Major.  I  have  with  horses. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  was  that  delay? 

Mr.  Major.  Well,  they  hold  you  up — when  I  would  come  in  here 
from  the  West  we  go  into  transfer  and  we  have  to  hold  up  about  6 
or  7  o'clock  in  the  evening;  thej'  then  bunt  you  around  here  until  1 
o'clock,  and  it  takes  two  or  three  men  to  keep  tliem  up.  I  have  rode 
in  the  yard  all  night  trying  to  keep  my  horses  up.     They  butt 

Mr.  Marble.  \ou  mean  they  fall  in  the  cars? 

Mr.  Major.  Fall  down  in  the  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  is  your  idea  that  they  ought  to  get  started  in 
less  time? 

Mr.  Major.  They  ought  to  set  us  some  place  on  a  side  track  and 
let  us  remain  there  until  we  are  ready  to  go,  instead  of  riding  us 
around  all  night  on  a  switch  engine.  I  know  it  is  not  necessary.  I 
have  railroaded  about  forty  years  myself. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  these  cars  loaded  at  country  points,  have  they 
moved  promptlv  after  being  loaded? 

Mr.  Major,  f'airly  well.     They  have  started  away  anyhow. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  have  been  too  long  on  the  way  ? 

Mr.  Major.  Too  long  on  the  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  why  there  is  that  delay  ? 

Mr.  Major.  No,  sir;  I  could  not  tell  you  about  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(Witness  was  here  excused.) 

W.  G.  Holland,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified 
as  follows: 
Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Holland,  you  reside  at  Jamestown,  N.  Dak.? 
Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Marble.  A\Tiat  is  your  occupation? 
Mr.  Holland.  Chief  dispatcher. 
Mr.  Marble.  For  what  road  ? 
Mr.  Holland.  The  Northern  Pacific. 


32  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  are  your  duties  as  chief  dispatcher? 

Mr.  Holland.  Well,  it  is  a  complication  of  duties;  it  is  generally 
to  handle  trains  over  the  division. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  order  the  trains  made  up,  where  you  put  out 
special  trains? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes — ^you  mean  certain  cars  in  certain  trains? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  HoLi^ND.  Not  without  it  is  special. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  it  is  special  you  do? 

Mr.  Holland.  If  it  is  a  special  shipment,  why,  we  put  special  cars 
in  the  train;  but  it  is  hardly  ever  that  way.  You  mean  for  freight 
trains  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Freight  trains.  I  am  talking  about  freight  trains 
altogether. 

Mr.  Holland.  Oh,  yes;  why,  not  without  it  is  freight  preference 
stuff — stock. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  take  it  in  the  yards  of  Jamestown.  If  loaded 
cars  accumulate,  when  there  are  enough  to  send  out  a  freight,  who 
decides  when  that  freight  shall  be  made  up  and  what  cars  shall  be 
put  in  it? 

Mr.  Holland.  Why,  I  do. 

Mr.  Mardije.  You  do ;  and  you  give  your  orders  to  the  yard  master? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  you  want  a  train  at  such  an  hour  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  a  list  of  cars  standing  in  the  yard,  and 
from  that  list  you  tell  him  what  cars  to  put  into  the  train  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Tell  him  how  much  of  a  train  to  put  on,  according 
to  the  size  of  the  engine. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  do  you  decide  what  cars  will  be  put  on  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  yard  master  decides  that? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  give  the  tonnage  and  the  time  the  train  is  to  go  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  also  have  charge  of  the  distribution  of  empty 
cars? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  also  have  charge  of  directing  the  move- 
ments of  the  trains  on  the  track  in  transit? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes.  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  their  passing  each  other? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  giving  of  orders  to  the  train,  of  course,  fol 
lows  necessarily  as  a  part  of  the  charge  of  the  movement? 

Mr.  Holland.  That  is  a  part. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  giving  orders  to  the  yard  master  as  to  the  amount 
of  tonnage  to  put  in  a  train,  what  is  your  practice  in  that  matter,  as 
to  the  load  put  upon  the  engine — what  per  cent  of  its  capacity? 

Mr.  Holland.  Why.  it  depends  upon  the  physical  conditions, 
weather,  and  so  on.  There  is  no  hard  and  fast  rule  to  follow  in  that 
regard.  The  aim  is  not  to  give  an  engine  more  tonnage  than  it  will 
go  right  along  with. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  mean  that  answer  exactly  ? 


OAR  SHORTAGE.  33 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  Vou  aim  to  give  it  all  the  tonnage  it  can  carry. 

Mr.  Holland.  You  misunderstood  me. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  am  asking  you  juiothor  question.  I  understood  you. 
Is  it  the  aim  to  give  the  engines  all  they  can  carry? 

Mr.  Holland.  And  make  fair  time? 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  do  you  call  fair  time? 

Mr.  Holland.  Why 

Mr.  Marble.  Take*  the  run  from  Jamastown  to  Staples;  that  dis- 
tance is  101)  miles,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Holi^\nd.  Well,  Staples  is  not  on  my — in  my  territory.  Take 
Jamestown  to  Fargo. 

Mr.  MARiiLE.  What  is  that  distance? 

Mr.  Holland.  Ninety-three  miles. 

Mr.  MARiiLE.  Now,  for  a  trainload  of  dead  freight,  or  grain — 
loaded  as  you  say  you  load  engines,  so  they  can  get  along — what  do 
you  consider  a  fair  running  time  from  Jamestown  to  Fargo  ^ 

Mr.  Holland.  Why,  if  they  have  not  many  trains  to  meet  they  can 
make  in  about  eight  or  nine  hours,  usually. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  they  usually  have  many  trains  to  meet? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble.  What  do  they  make  it  in  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  All  the  way  from  six  to  twelve,  thirteen  or  fourteen 
houi-s. 
.  Mr.  Marble.  What  would  you  say — I  do  not  want  you  to  include 
the  oriental  freight  or  the  passenger  trains,  but  I  want  these  ship- 
ments of  heavy  tonnage ;  dead  freight — what  would  you  say  the  aver- 
age time  has  l)een  those  trains  have  made  during  the  last  three  months 
over  that  route? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  should  judge  about  twelve  or  thirteen  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  many  trains  out  longer  than  that  time? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  longer? 

Mr.  Holland.  Why,  they  have  been  out  fifteen  and  sixteen  hours,  I 
guess,  prob'ibly  in  some  cases  seventeen  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  seventeen  hours  is  the  limit  they  have  been 
out  in  the  hist  three  months  over  that  route? 

Mr.  Holland.  Probably,  except  in  cases  whore  they  have  been  out 
longer  than  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  exceptional  cases  do  you  think  there  have 
l)een? 

Mr.  Holland.  Well,  not  having  the  data  at  hand,  I  could  not 

Mr.  Marbi^.  You  brought  some  train  sheets  down  with  you,  did 
you  not? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marulk.  Where  are  thev? 

Mr.  Holland.  In  the  room  here. 

Mr.  Marulk.  And  Mr.  Winter  and  Mr.  Hawley  can  get  those  dur- 
ing the  noon  hour  and  examine  them? 

Mr.  Holland,  ^'es,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  they  can  go  over  them  with  you,  if  you  will  help 
them  or  if  you  will  leave  the  sheets  with  theuL    Those  train  sheets 
will  show  every  train  for  what  period  of  time? 
S.  Doc.  333,  59-2 3 


34  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Holland.  October  and  November. 

Mr.  Marble.  From  where;  between  Jamestown  and  Fariro? 

Mr.  Holland.  And  also  for  the  entire  division. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  would  be  what  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Between  Fargo  and  Mandan. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  they  show  the  running  time  of  each  train — time 
of  leaving  the  point  and  time  of  arrival — do  they  not? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  do  not  show  the  point  w^here  delays  occurred, 
or  causes  of  the  delay,  do  they  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Not  in  every  case ;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  prefer  to  finish  with  Mr.  Holland  after  the  exami- 
nation of  these  tram  sheets  and  to  call  somebody  else  now. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  said  that  if  it  were  not  for  passing  so  many  trains 
that  the  trains  would  run  between  Fargo  and  Jamestown  in  eight 
or  nine  hours,  if  I  understand  you  correctly  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunn.  You  also  said  that  there  were  a  great  many  trains  to 
pass  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  And  meet;  yes. 

Mr.  Bunn.  What  has  been  the  condition  of  the  railroads  in  this 
section  during  this  fall  as  to  the  number  of  passing  trains? 

Mr.  Holland.  The  number  of  trains? 

Mr.  Bunn.  Yes. 

Mr.  Holland.  Why,  we  have  been  handling  about  as  many  trains 
as  we  could  conveniently. 

Mr.  Bunn.  That  is  what  I  want  to  get  at.  Have  you  done  any 
more  than  you  have  been  doing  ordinarily? 

Mr.  Holland.  About  the  usual  business. 

Mr,  Bunn.  Has  the  railroad  on  your  division  l:>een  taxed  to  its 
capacity,  or  about  that? 

Mr.  Holland.  Probably;  between  certain  points  it  is. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Take  it  during  the  month  of  October — between  James- 
town and  Fargo? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes;  I  think  it  is;  particularly  between  Sanborn 
and  Oriska. 

Mr.  Marble.  Suppose,  Mr.  Holland,  if  you  made  up  smaller 
trains — trains  averaging  less  than  the  size  of  those  you  are  running, 
what  would  be  your  condition  then? 

Mr.  Holland.  Why,  we  could  not  handle  the  trains,  because  it 
would  make  that  many  more  meeting  points.  It  would  be  a  con- 
gestion of  traffic  that  we  could  not  overcome.  It  would  be  too  many 
trains  on  the  road  to  handle. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all.  Just  a  moment.  Suppose  instead  of 
making  the  train  half  the  size,  you  should  take  off  a  hundred  tons 
from  each  train ;  could  you  not  expect  to  make  the  round  trip  in  less 
time  than  these  trains  now  require  to  make  a  round  trip  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  it  be  made  any  faster  or  not? 

Mr.  Holland.  Practically  no  faster. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  you  consider  that  you  are  not  loading  engines 
to  the  point  that  you  lessen  their  speed? 

Mr.  Holland.  No,  sir. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  35 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  all  of  your  sidings  long  enough  for  your  trains 
at  passing  points? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  All  of  them  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  have  to  saw  any  trains  past  one  another? 

Mr.  Holland.  Not  unless  we  get  two  trains  on  a  siding. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  that  hapi)en  frequently? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  frequently? 

Mr.  Holland.  Well,  as  a  rule,  we  try  to  avoid  that  sort  of  a  condi- 
tion— that  is,  we  try  to  hold  the  trains  back,  so  that  they  won't  con- 
gregate at  one  point. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  succeed  in  doing  so  in  a  great  many  instances? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  occurs  frecjuently? 

Mr.  Holland.  It  is  bound  to  occur. 

Mr.  Marble.  Every  day  somewhere? 

Mr.  Holland.  No;  perhaps  not  every  day,  but  frequentlv. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  the  Cooi)ci*stown  branch — is  that  under 
your  control  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  condition  there  as  to  the  numl)er  of 
trains,  and  trains  passing  each  other? 

Mr.  Holland.  Why,  1  do  not  think  there  has  Ix'en  any  trouble 
of  that  sort. 


Mr.  Marble.  No  congestion  there? 
Mr.  Holland.  No,  sir. 


Mr.  Marble.  No  more  than  anywhere  else,  at  any  rate? 

Mr.  Holland.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  trains  have  you  had  in  the  last  two  weeks 
on  that  Coopei^stown  branch? 

Mr.  Holland.  We  run  a  passenger  each  way  a  day,  and  a  freight 
each  way  a  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  you  would  .say  you  have  had  twenty-eight 
freights  in  the  last  two  weeks? 

Mr.  Holland.  During  good  weather. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  it  been  good  weather  during  the  la.st  two  weeks? 

Mr.  Holi^\nd.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  days  bad  weather?  Is  that  line  blocked 
with  snow  ?     What  is  the  trouble? 

Mr.  Holland.  It  was  blocked  north  of  Cooperstown. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  how  long? 

Mr.  Holland.  Since  Friday  of  this  week. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  week  ago  Friday? 

Mr.  Holland.  This  last  Friday;  it  was  opened  up  yesterday. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  did  the  passenger  trains  make  regular  runs 
Friday  and  Saturday? 

Mr.  Holland.  As  far  as  Cooperstown  and  return. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  passenger  trains  were  blocked  as  well  as  the 
others? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  complaints  of  the  slowness  of  move- 
ment from  up  in  your  country — have  they  come  to  you  at  all  ? 


36  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Holland.  No;  only  in  a  general  way.  No  specific  charges, 
no  specific  cases. 

Mr.  Marble.  No  specific  cases  were  brought  to  your  attention? 

Mr.  Holland.  By  the  citizens,  you  mean? 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  by  anybody — the  shippers  complaining  about 
cars  being  delayed  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  No ;  I  can  not  say  that  there  has  been  any. 

Mr.  Marble.  None  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do  not  remember  any  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  consider  that  the  freight  on  your  division 
has  moved  expeditiously,  the  way  you  have  testified — that  there  has 
been  no  trouble  there  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Well,  there  has  been  more  or  less  congestion,  p>er- 
haps,  but  there  has  been  no  specific  complaint  made. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  your  power — have  you  got  plenty  of 
power? 

Mr.  Holland.  Well,  we  have  got  to  use  the  power  mostly  for 
stock,  this  fall,  to  keep  the  stock  moving. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then,  grain  has  not  moved  very  much  on  that 
account,  is  that  so? 

Mr.  Holland.  We  moved  stock  in  preference  to  grain. 

Mr,  Marble.  Have  you  moved  stock  in  preference  to  coal  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Coal  as  a  rule  moves  west  and  stock  moves  east. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  stock  shipments  taken  your  engines  away 
from  Duluth  at  all,  or  anything  of  that  sort,  so  that  you  could  not 
move  coal  west  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  No;  that  moves  in  the  opposite  direction  from 
that. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  much  more  stock  have  you  moved  this 
year  than  you  moved  last? 

Mr.  Holland.  1  think  it  is  about  the  same;  I  think  that  the  num- 
ber of  trains  run  this  year  were  about  the  same  as  last  year. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Moved  in  the  season,  Mr.  Holland? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes;  moved  later  in  the  season. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  has  been  the  volume  of  the  stock  move- 
ment this  year? 

Mr.  Holland.  Why,  I  think  that  probably  October  was  the  heavi- 
est month. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Ordinarily,  what  time  is  it? 

Mr.  Holland.  We  have  moved  a  good  deal  of  stock  this  year  in 
November. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Go  ahead,  Mr.  Holland. 

Mr.  Holland.  Last  year  a  great  deal  of  the  stock  moved  in  August. 

Conunissioner  Lane.  And  very  little  moved  in  November? 

Mr.  Holland.  Not  so  much  in  November  as — that  is,  the  fore  part 
of  November. 

Mr.  BuNN.  The  fact  is  that  the  movement  of  stock  is  exceptionally 
light  this  year — everybody  knows  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  true  that  grain  started  moving  exceptionallj^ 
earlv  this  year? 

Mr.  Holland.  No;  I  can  not  say  that  it  moved  any  earlier  than 
ordinarily. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  far  as  it  moved  at  all,  do  you  not  know  that 
this  crop  was  about  three  weeks  earlier  than  the  crop  6f  last  year? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  37 

Mr.  Holland.  I  kiiow  that  we  had  a  better  supply  of  empties 
during  the  fore  part  of  this  year  than  we  had  last  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  grain  was  offered  for 
shipment  earlier  this  year  than  last  year? 

Mr.  Holland:  I  guess  probably  there  was  some  grain  offered  a 
little  earlier. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  earlier? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  did  not  look  it  up  to  see. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  what  the  reason  was  that  stock 
moved  so  late  this  year? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  could  not  tell  you. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  whether  the  cars  were  otherwise 
engaged  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  could  not  tell  as  to  that,  the  stock  comes  from 
bej'ond  the  division  that  I  am  on. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Does  it  not  originate  on  your  division  at 
all? 

Mr.  Holland.  The  greater  part  of  it  originates  west. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  been  able  to  jnove  all  the  stock 
that  was  offered  to  your  division  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Practically  speaking. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  There  were  no  complaints  by  stockmen  to 
you? 

Mr.  Holland.  We  might  have  been  delayed  in  getting  cars  some, 
but  I  got  them  in  a  short  time. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  was  the  stock  offered  you  as  early 
this  year  as  last  year  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  That  has  been  coming  all  fall. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  mean  stocK  over  your  division — did  you 
not  have  offers  of  stock  over  your  division  as  early  this  year  as  last 
year? 

Mr.  Holland.  Oh,  yes;  it  has  been  moving  all  fall. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  as  early  as  it  moved  last  year? 

Mr.  H01.LAND.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so — portions  of  it,  at  least. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Holland,  you  say  you  make  up  your 
trains  according  to  the  capacity  of  your  locomotives,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  is  the  capacity  of  your  locomotives 
used  on  your  division? 

Mr.  Holland.  Why,  from  Jamestown  east,  in  good  weather — 
summer  weather,  not  freezing  weather — we  handle  eighteen  and 
nineteen  hundred  tons. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  cars  would  that  be? 

Mr.  Holland.  For  wheat  it  would  make  about  thirty-five  or 
thirty-six — somewheres  along  in  there. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  long  have  you  been  with  the  road? 

Mr.  Holland.  1  have  been  in  my  present  position  one  year;  I 
have  been  with  the  road  for  thirteen  years. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  are  they  hauling  more  cars  per 
locomotive  than  they  did  fifteen  years  ago? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes;  I  think  probably  they  are,  because  the  engines 
are  heavier  now  than  they  were  five  years  ago. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Heavier  line  engines? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 


38  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  the  movement  of  your  freight  trains  as 
fast  per  day  now  as  five  years  ago  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  The  number  of  trains  ? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  No;  the  movement  per  day,  the  number 
of  miles  covered  per  day? 

Mr.  HoLLANT).  No;  I  do  not  think  it  is. 

Commissioner  Harlax.  In  a  general  way,  what  is  the  difference 
in  the  number  of  miles  covered  per  day  by  freight  trains  now  and  five 
years  ^o? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that. 

Conmiissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  any  idea  about  it  ? 

Mr.  HoLLANT).  If  I  was  to  venture  a  guess,  I  would  say  that  the 
mileage  v^ould  be  about  the  same. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  thought  you  said  it  would  not  ? 

Mr.  HoLLANT).  Perhaps  I  did  not  understand  your  question.  The 
miles  covered  by  an  engine 

Commissioner  Harlan.  By  a  train — a  freight  train.  Will  the 
stenographer  read  my  question,  please? 

The  stenographer  fea!a  as  follows: 

Is  the  movement  of  your  freight  trains  as  fast  per  day  now  as  five  years  ago? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  did  not  understand  it  then,  I  think  that  the  miles 
covered  per  day  probably  was  about  the  same  as  it  was  then. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Mr.  Holland,  suppose  that  you  had  a  larger 
number  of  switches  and  side  tracks,  and  that  you  made  up  trains  with 
fewer  cars,  could  they  not  move  faster  than  at  present  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Generally  speaking,  no. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  just  explain  that  to  us. 

Mr.  Holland.  Well,  as  a  rule,  our  meeting  points  between  James- 
town and  Fargo  are  only  2  to  4  miles  apart,  as  a  rule;  and  if  there 
was  a  greater  number  or  side  tracks  for  them  to  go  in  on,  the  train 
would  naturallv  be  delayed  taking  these  sidings.  That  is  mv  view 
of  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  then,  you  have  left  out  a  consideration — 
the  speed  a  train  could  make  if  it  had  less  weight  to  carry. 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do  not  think  that  would  affect  that  materially. 
As  it  is  they  can  get  right  along  over  the  road;  they  are  not  stopped 
at  stations. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  you  were  here  this  morning,  Mr.  Hol- 
land. We  want  to  get  at  the  facts  in  this  matter.  There  has  been 
complaint  made  to  us  rei)eatedly  from  all  jwrtions  of  this  territory 
regarding  what  is  generally  termed  car  shortage  and  complaints 
against  the  manner  in  whicli  cars  are  handled  and  railroads  operated, 
and  we  have  come  here  to  find  out,  in  the  interests  of  the  public,  just 
what  the  condition  of  things  is,  and,  if  possible,  to  point  out  to  the 
railroad  how  that  condition  can  be  improved,  or,  if  it  is  necessary, 
that  some  other  incentive  shall  be  given.  Now,  you  are  a  practical 
railroad  man.  We  have  to  rely,  to  a  large  extent,  to  the  railroad  men 
for  advice  upon  these  kinds  of  questions.  Will  you  give  me  your  rea- 
sons why  it  takes  so  lo^  to  move  from  North  Dakota  to  Duluth  a 
train  load  of  wheat?  Wny  there  should  be  complaints  that  it  takes 
in  some  cases  thirty  and  fortv  days?  It  would  seem  that  on  your 
division  there  is  no  trouble.  You  do  not  suggest  any  way  by  which 
that  service  could  be  improved.     Now,  give  us  the  benefit  of  your 


CAR   SH0RTA3E.  39 

knowledge  as  an  expert  railroad  man — regarding  yourself  as,  in  a 
sense,  in  the  public  service — as  to  how  bettor  time  can  be  made  from 
North  Dakota  to  Duluth,  so  that  the  cars  will  not  take  thirty  or 
forty  days. 

Mr.  Holland.  I  would  like  to  be  able  to  answer  that  question.  It 
would  solve  a  good  deal  of  this  trouble,  if  I  could,  I  presume. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  know  of  any  way  by  which  the 
service  on  the  Northern  Pacific,  between  North  Dakota  and  Duluth, 
can  be  improved,  in  the  matter  of  train  service,  in  which  you  are  a 
railroad  ex])ert? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do  not  know  how  we  can  make  any  improvement 
on  the  present  conditions  in  the  way  of  getting  freight  over  the  road. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  BuNN.  If  you  will  pardon  me,  we  have  brought  with  us  the 
gentleman  who  moves  all  these  cars — the  general  manager  of  the 
road — who  can  answer  that  question. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  would  be  very  glad  indeed  to  have  him 
answer,  and  you  can  feel  at  liberty  to  put  on  what  witnesses  you 
desire. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  can  hardly  expect  an  answer  to  that  question  from 
the  witness  on  the  stand. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  do  not  know,  Mr.  Bunn,  whether  it  is 
expected  under  these  circumstances  or  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  not  recommend  putting  more  tonnage  on 
the  trains  to  get  the  freight  over  the  road,  would  you? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  would  not  want  to  recommend  overloading. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  put  on  any  more,  you  think  they  would  be 
overloaded  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes;  the  engines  that  we  operate  this  fall  could 
probably  have  handled  another  hundred  tons. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  didn't  you  put  it  on? 

Mr.  Holland.  Because  they  would  be  liable  to  break  in  two. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  they  could  not  have  handled  it? 

Mr.  Holland.  It  would  have  been  at  a  loss. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  to  say,  your  train  would  have  broken  in  two; 
it  would  have  been  too  heavy  for  the  couplings. 

Mr.  Holland.  It  would  have  been  apt  to  break  in  two. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  you  have  loaded  trains  to  the  capacity  of  the 
couplings  to  hold  together,  within  a  hundred  tons? 

Mr.  Holland.  Well,  it  was  not  exactly  that  I  meant.  It  is  not  the 
strain  that  would  break  them  in  two,  perhaps,  but  when  a  train 
would  jerk  it  would  not  be  liable  to  hold  togetner.  It  would  be  too 
heavy  and  they  would  be  apt  to  break  in  two. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  think  that  if  you  had  put  two  more  cars  on 
these  trains  they  would  have  broken  in  two? 

Mr.  Holland.  Not  in  every  case. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  would  have  been  danger  of  that,  and  that  is 
the  reason  you  did  not  put  them  on? 

Mr.  Holland.  We  have  handled  two  thousand  tons  on  our  trains 
and  did  not  break  them  in  two.  We  thought  it  was  better  operation 
to  handle  nineteen  hundred  tons. 

Mr.  NfARBLE.  Are  your  engines  all  new  engines? 

Mr.  Holland.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  some  of  them  been  in  use? 


40  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Holland.  We  got  some  of  them  this  fall  and  some  of  them  have 
been  here  for  long  beitore  I  came;  I  could  not  say  how  long. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  vou  got  some  of  the  Brookes,  nmeteen  by 
twenty-six,  five-hundrei's,  up  there? 

Mr.  Holland.  Commonly  Known  as  Mogul  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  I  believe  so. 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  have  been  in  use  quite  a  number  of  years? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  capacity  of  those 
engines  is  higher  this  year  than  it  ever  was  before? 

Mr.  Holland.  No,  sir;  it  is  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  less? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  think  it  is  rated  about  100  tons  less  than  it  has 
been  in  former  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  you  say  it  was  less  100  tons  this  year  than  it 
was  in  1900? 

Mr.  Holland.  In  1900  we  were  handling  1,350  tons  with  those 
engines,  and  this  year  we  have  been  handling  most  of  those  engines 
on  way  freights — light  trains. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  not  put  them  on  heavy  trains  this  year? 

Mr.  Holland.  No,  sir;  not  as  a  rule. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  the  engines  generally  loaded  heavier  this  year 
than  last  year,  or  lighter  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  The  same  class  of  engines  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  The  same  class  comparing  with  the  same  class  of 
engines — is  your  tonnage  heavier  or  lighter  per  engine  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Practically  the  same. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  want  to  be  understood  as  swearing  in  response 
to  Commissioner  Harlan's  question  that  trains  move  as  fast  now  as 
they  did  five  years  ago  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  think  they  do.  * 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  loaded  heavier? 

Mr.  Holland.  The  same  class  of  engines. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  trains  are  not  loaded  heavier  where  the  same 
class  of  engines  is  used  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  making  as  good  a  record  in  getting  freight 
over  the  road  as  you  did  five  years  ago  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  can  not  say  that  we  are. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  not? 

Mr.  Holland.  Probably  due  to  the  greater  volume  of  business.     ^ 

Mr.  Marble.  You  get  more  over  the  road  if  you  have  a  greater 
volume  of  business,  but  the  movement  is  slower  than  with  the  less 
volume.     Is  that  it? 

Mr.  Holland.  There  are  more  trains  to  meet  and  greater  train 
interference. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  all  the  trouble  has  been  train  interference.  Is 
it  not  a  fact  that  freight  trains  are  so  heavy  and  so  long  now  as  com- 
pared with  five  years  ago  that  you  have  to  make  them  a  larger  head- 
way allowance  in  order  to  get  a  passenger  train  over  the  road  than 
you  did  then? 

Mr.  Holland.  No;  I  think  that  they  will  make  as  gpod  meeting 
points. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  41 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  say  one  of  these  trains  of  dead  freight  has  to 
have  greater  or  less  headway  than  it  did  five  years  ago? 

Mr.  Holland.  As  a  rule,  I  think  they  will  make  as  good  meeting 
points  as  they  did  then. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  have  to  give  them  a  larger  allowance  now? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  think  about  the  same. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  empty  cars  ?  Have  you  had  empty  cars  to 
fill  the  orders  coming  to  you? 

Mr.  Holland.  Empties  have  been  scarce ;  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  scarce?  Have  you  had  to  let  orders  go  unfilled 
for  quite  awhile? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  trouble  in  furnishing  stock  cars? 

Mr.  Holland.  Some. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  how  much  have  men  had  to  wait;  a  week? 

Mr.  Holland.  In  some  cases  they  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  Two  weeks? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  think  that  probably  is  the  limit. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  know  anyone  that  has  had  to  wait 
twenty  days? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do  not  recollect  it  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  trouble  in  getting  box  cars? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes ;  box  cars  have  been  scarce. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  trouble  now? 

Mr.  Holland.  Not  so  much  as  it  has  been. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  complaint  of  lack  of  box  cars  at 
Jamestown  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  you  had  complaint? 

Mr.  Holland.  Well,  probably — you  mean  to  fill  local  orders  with? 

Mr.  Marble.  I  mean  to  fill  orders  that  you  chose  to  fill.  How  many 
available  box  cars  have  you  had?  How  long  have  you  had  available 
cars  in  the  yards  at  JamestoAMi? 

Mr.  Holland.  Probably  a  week. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  have  been  coming  and  going  during  that  week? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir;  this  past  week  they  have  not  moved  very 
freely  on  account  of  weather  conditions. 

Mr.  Marble.  Bad  weather  at  Jamestown  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  is  the  only  thing  that  has  kept  them  from 
moving? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  think  that  is  the  greatest  reason. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  do  you  mean  by  that?  Do  you  mean  that 
your  track  has  been  blocked  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Snow  interference. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  the  trains  could  not  run? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  trains  have  been  blocked  out  of  Jamestown? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  no  lack  of  power  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Well,  in  some  respects,  yes;  and  in  another  way,  no. 

Mr. .Marble.  In  what  respects  yes? 

Mr.  Holland.  We  would — we  handled  loads  such  as  coal  in  prefer- 
ence to  empties,  and  wc  have  moved  more  empties  on  local  trains  to 


42  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

other  points  than  we  would  have,  if  we  had  been  able  to  have  han- 
dled the  empties  on  the  other  trains  that  were  filled  with  loads. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  or  did  you  not  have  enough  engines?  If 
you  had  had  enough  engines  could  you  have  sent  more  trains  over 
the  road  than  you  did? 

Mr.  Holland.  It  might  possibly  have  been  one  day  this  week,  but 
not  to  exceed  that, 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  to  exceed  that.  Do  you  know  how  many  box 
cars  you  had  in  your  Jamestown  yard  on  the  14th? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  you  had  43  very  large 
cars  standing  in  one  string  empty? 

Mr.  Holland.  We  had  a  string  of  empties  there. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  they  been  there? 

Mr.  Holland.  They  have  been  there  for  four  or  five  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Only  four  or  five  days  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  That  is  about  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Haven't  they  been  there  six  days? 

Mr.  Holland.  They  may  possibly  have  been,  but  I  do  not  think  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  that  number  is  correct — 43  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Sixties  and  eighties,  mostly  80,000-capacity  cars  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Marble,  How  much  company  coal  have  you  got  at  James- 
town— do  you  know? 

Mr.  Holland.  Storage  in  cars  ? 

Mr.  Marble,  In  supply  at  Jamestown. 

Mr.  Holland.  That  is  out  of  my  jurisdiction. 

Mr,  Marble,  How  much  have  you  got  standing  in  cars? 

Mr,  Holland.  Probably  5  or  6  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  know  how  much  there  is  in  storage 
other  than  that? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  your  road  have  storage  bins  for  coal? 

Mr,  Holland.  It  has  a  coal  dump  with  a  bin  in  connection  with  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  those  cars  been  standing  there  with 
coal  in  them? 

Mr.  Holland.  No  length  of  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  how  long? 

Mr.  Holland.  Some  of  them  came  in  Sunday;  and  they  arc  prob- 
ably used  up  by  this  time. 

Mr,  Marble,  Probably  used  up?     You  are  using  out  of  the  cars? 

Mr.  Holland.  We  unload  right  from  the  car  into  the  dump. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  unload  into  the  bin? 

Mr.  Holland.  No. 

Mr,  Marble,  You  unload  into  a  chute? 

Mr,  Holland,  Yes,  sir, 

Mr,  Marble,  That  goes  to  the  engine? 

Mr,  Holland.  Into  the  elevator,  and  then  that  goes  into  the  engine. 

Mr,  Marble.  Now,  then,  when  you  get  loaded  cars  for  the  com- 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  43 

])any,  does  the  coal  stand  in  the  cars  until  such  time  as  it  is  unloaded 
into  that  elevator^ 

Mr.  Holland.  I  presume,  as  a  rule,  it  does,  unless  it  is  put  into 
the  storage. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  often  is  it  put  into  the  storage  bin? 

Mr.  Holland.  As  fast  as  they  can  get  it  unloaded. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  delay  in  unloading? 

Mr.  Holland.  Not  excessive  delay,  I  think. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  company  coal  pretty  largely 
is  unloaded  from  the  cars  into  the  elevator  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  think  that  is  the  practice. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  how  many  points  on  your  division  do  you  supply 
coal  to  the  engines? 

Mr.  Holland.  At  Fai^o,  Valley  City,  and  Dawson,  on  the  main 
line. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  have  you  been  to  these  points? 

Mr.  Holland.  They  have  practically  the  same  kind  of  an  arrange- 
ment that  we  have  at  Jamestown. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  all  of  them? 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  coal  is  standing  at  these  points — company 
coal  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  Practically  none.  '   • 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  is  in  the  yards? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Marble.  Recently  cars  of  coal  have  gone  into  these  points — 
have  you  put  them  into  the  bin  or  have  they  been  put  into  the  clmtes  ? 

Mr.  Holland.  I  do  not  handle  the  coal  myself. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  order  the  cars  for  unloading? 

Mr.  Holland.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  you  can  not  testify  as  to  that? 

Mr.  Holland.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Before  we  adjourn,  we  have  a  number  of  train  dis- 
patchers— Mr.  Philbin,  of  Superior 

Commissioner  Lane.  Mr.  Holland,  you  will  return  at  2  o'clock^ 

Mr.  Holland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  railroad  men  from  the  country  who  have  come 
to  the  citv,  including  Mr.  Kyle,  who  have  brought  in  certain  records — 
I  would  like  to  see  them  here -immediately  after  the  adjournment  of 
the  Commission  so  that  we  can  expedite  matters,  and  let  them  get 
tlirou^h  and  get  away.  By  meeting  them  now,  I  can  save  consider- 
able time. 

Commi.ssioner  Lane.  We  will  now  take  an  adjournment  at  this 
time  until  2  o'clock  p.  m. 

(ThereupMjn,  at  12.20  o'clock  p.  m.,  the  Commission  took  an 
adjournment  until  2  o'clock  p.  m.) 

after  recess. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Gentlemen,  we  are  ready  to  proceed. 
Mr.  Marble.  I  will  call  Mr.  Blanchard. 

E.  C.  Blanchard,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified 
as  follows: 
Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Blanchard,  you  reside  at  Duluth,  Minn.? 


44  OAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  division  superintendent  of  the  Northern 
Pacific  Railroad? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  am. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  in  charge  of  the  terminal  there? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  present  condition  of  that  terminal  as  to 
the  congestion  of  cars  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  is  in  a  very  fair  condition — very  slightly 
congested. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  means  that  you  have  been  clearing  it  up 
since  navigation  closed  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  has  been  the  condition  there  this  crop  season? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  The  conditions  were  fair  until  about  the  10th  to 
the  15th  of  November,  about  which  time  we  were  badly  congested. 

Mr.  Marble.  After  the  10th  of  November? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  was  that — what  caused  that  congestion? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  On  account  of  the  large  increase  of  business  both 
inbound  and  outbound,  especially  outbound. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  what  commoaity  has  the  business  increased  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Almost  every  commodity. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  there  been  enough  increase  in  grain  to  explain 
any  part  of  this  congestion  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  A  slight  increase  in  grain. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  there  been  enough  to  explain  this  congestion 
at  all? 

Mr.  Blanchard,  That,  added  to  the  other  increases,  resulted  in 
the  congestion. 

Mr.  Marble.  Helped  to  increase  it?  What  commodity  has  in- 
creased in  receipts  more  than  grain? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Receipts? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Well,  lumber  from  the  Pacific  coast,  and  almost 
every  other  commodity.  I  do  not  know  as  I  can  enumerate  the 
increases  in  each  one  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  in  your  shipments  out,  what  commodities  in- 
creased ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Coal  and  lumber;  principally  coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  Principally  coal  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  did  you  ship  out  more  coal  than  customarily? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  More  than  last  year? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  To  what  points  has  the  coal  gone? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  To  pomts  in  the  Northwest  and  Southwest. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  that  been  coal  for  railroad  consumption,  or  for 
private  consumption? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Both. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  shipped  out  an  increased  quantity  of  coal 
for  private  consumption? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  45 

Mr.  Marble.  To  North  Dakota? 

Mr.  Blancharu.  I  could  not  tell  you  as  to  the  territory,  but  I 
tliink  we  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  to  the  commodities  received,  how  much  haa  iron- 
ore  business  increased  this  year  over  last  year? 

Mr.  Blancharu.  We  do  not  handle  iron  ore — the  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  don't  go  tlirough  your  yards  at  all? 

Mr.  Blaxchard.  No,  sir;  that  is,  only  a  small  amoimt  going  to  the 
local  industries,  the  Zenith  Furnace  Company. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  at  all  hami>ered  by  the  conditions  of  the 
Great  Northern,  particularly  the  terminal  in  Duluth,  or  have  you 
been  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  The  Great  Northern  terminal  in  Duluth? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes;  the  Great  Northern  terminals  at  that  point — 
the  Head  of  the  Lakes?    Have  conditions  there  hampered  you? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  At  Duluth  proper? 

Mr.  Marble.  Duluth  or  Superior, 

Mr.  Bl.\nchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  there  were  cars  to  be  brought  from  the  Great 
Northern  to  your  yards,  was  there  diflBculty  about  getting  them  to 
your  yards  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  At  certain  times  we  are  congested  perhaps  for  a 
few  hours,  and  we  might  not  be  able  to  receive  a  train  of  cars  from 
t  hem,  but  there  is  no  serious  delay. 

Mr.  M.\RBLE.  Are  your  terminals  large  enough,  did  you  say? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Not  large  enough  to  handle  the  business  we  have 
had  in  the  last  three  months. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  they  ought  to  be  made  larger  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes;  I  think  there  should  be  some  increased 
facilities. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  you  thought  that? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Since  1905. 

Mr.  Marble.  Since  1905? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  been  increased  since  1905? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  attempted  to  increase  them,  but  could  not 
succeed  in  getting  the  work  done. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Because  we  had  to  make  a  fill  of  land  on  Rice's 
Point  by  dredges,  and  the  contractor  who  took  the  contract  to  have 
the  dredging  oone  could  not  perform  the  work  in  time  for  the  move- 
ment of  grain. 

Mr.  >rARBLE.  Was  there  some  physical  impossibility  which  they 
met  as  a  reason  that  they  were  not  enlarged  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  They  met  with  unavoidable  delays,  I  presume. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  there  (iifficulty  in  ^jetting  men? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Difficulty  in  gettmg  dredges  and  men,  and 
breakdowns  and  other  unavoidable  reasons,  I  presume. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  heard  the  testimony  this  morning? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Part  of  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  heard  these  statements  as  to  a  great  many 
Northern  Pacific  cars  and  the  long  time  they  were  hi  getting  through 
the  terminal  to  the  elevators,  and  the  great  many  days  they  were 
delayed? 


46  CAB   SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  heard  some  of  the  testimony ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  heard  there  were  a  good  many  complaints, 
and  you  got  a  letter  from  the  board  of  trade  relative  to  that  mattci  .' 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  did. 

Mr.  Marble.  Which  you  replied  to  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  said  that  the  elevators  had  not  delayed  you 
this  year? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  power  enough  there  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No;  I  have  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  that  been  one  of  the  reasons  for  this  congestion? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  One  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  one  of  them,  you  say,  was  that  the  terminal 
was  not  large  enough  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  any  trouble  over  the  fact  that  trains 
coming  in  were  too  large?  If  trains  came  in  more  frequently  and 
with  fewer  cars  in  the  trains,  would  that  help  you  any  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  would  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  trains  do  not  congest  you  when  they  come  in 
there? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  your  observation  that  the  trains  are  too  heavil}' 
loaded  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  percentage  of  their  capacity  is  put  on  these 
engines,  do  you  know  ? 

Mr.  BLANCILA.RD.  I  should  say  85  to  90  per  cent  of  their  capacity. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  an  engine  loaded  to  85  or  90  per  cent  of  its 
capacity,  and  if  it  gets  behind  time,  has  it  reserve  power  to  make  up 
time? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  has  reserve  power  sufficient  to  make  good 
freight  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  "good  freight  time?" 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  should  say — you  mean  including  unavoidable 
delays,  meeting  trains,  taking  coal  and  water,  etc. ;  the  average  over 
a  district? 

Mr.  Marble.  You  might  get  in  so  many  unavoidable  delays  that 
there  would  be  nothing  very  illuminating  in  your  answer.  In  the  first 
place,  if  the  train  is  not  delayed  by  meetmg  other  trains — if  it  is 
simply  stopped  to  get  water  and  coal — what  would  you  say  ought 
to  be  its  time  for  going  over  a  division  of  100  miles? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  They  should  make  about  10  miles  per  hour  on  an 
average. 

Mr.  Marble.  Ten  miles  per  hour  on  an  average? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  time  have  your  trains  made  during  the  last 
three  months. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  From  8  to  10  miles  per  hour. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  has  it  taken  to  cover  the  division? 

Mr.  Blanchard.*  The  district — from  fourteen  to  sixteen  or  eighteen 
hours,  occasionally. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  length  of  that  division?    " 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  47 

Mr.  Blanchard.  The  district  from  Duluth  to  Staples  is  148  miles 
ami  from  Duluth  to  St.  Paul  152  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  division  has  been  covered  in  this  time,  you 
say? 

Air.  Blanchard.  Approximately. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  unavoidable  delays — very  many  of 
them — that  have  increased  that  time? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  At  terminals  only. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  terminals? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  what  terminals? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  At  Superior  and  what  we  call  South  Superior. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  mean  delays  in  getting  started  out  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Delays  in  getting  started  out. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  delays  in  getting  in  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  And  delays — a  few  delays — in  getting  in. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  caused  the  delays  in  starting  out  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Well,  unforeseen  obstacles  in  the  way  of  making 
up  trains.  For  instance,  the  yardmaster  would  notify  the  dispatcher 
that  he  could  have  a  train  made  up  at  2  p.  m.,  and  on  account  of  cer- 
tain congestions  that  he  could  not  foresee,  and  other  accidents,  per- 
haps, the  train  would  be  delayed  an  hour  and  a  half  or  two  hours  in 
getting  started  from  Duluth.  Our  outbound  trains  all  run  through 
Superior,  and  we  have  also — just  to  the  same  extent  there  are  some 
delays  in  getting  through  the  Superior  yards. 

Mr.  Marble.  One  or  two  hours  in  Duluth  and  a  similar  delay  in 
Superior,  for  instance? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Of  course  the  engine  and  cars  are  out  of  use  to  that 
extent.     Can  you  not  avoid  that? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Not  without  increasing  the  facilities,  which  we 
hope  to  do,  and  which  we  intended  to  do  this  season. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  the  ordinary  80,000-pound  car,  loaded  with 
wheat,  that  comes  in.  How  much  wheat  does  that  car  actually  con- 
tain, as  a  matter  of  fact? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  carries  its  full  capacity  and  sometimes  more. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  am  asking  you  what  tonnage  those  cars  actually 
l)ring  in. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  An  80,000-pound  car  actually  brings  in  80,000 
pounds,  as  near  as  I  know. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  they  not  loaded  over  their  capacity?  Are  not 
your  people  instructed  to  load  them  over  their  capacity  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  allow  shippers  to  load  them  10  per  cent  over 
capacity. 

Mr.  Marble.  Don't  you  demand  that  they  be  loaded  10  per  cent 
over  their  marked  capacity? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  1  never  heard  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  that  10  per  cent  over  capacity  is  the  maxi- 
mum load  as  a  matter  of  fact? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes;  that  is  all  it  could  be  loaded. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  is  all  that  is  loaded  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir;  as  far  as  I  know. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those  pass  under  your  eye,  do  they? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  They  do  not. 


48  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  a  car  is  loaded  too  heavy,  what  effect  has  that  upon 
the  braking  power? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  has  no  material  effect  upon  the  braking  power 
that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  it  not  restrict  the  braking  power,  impair  it, 
by  loading  the  car  too  heavy  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  might  to  a  very  small  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  enough,  you  say,  to  make  a  perceptible  difference 
in  rimning  the  train  and  in  managing  the  train  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  railroad  business? 

^Ir.  Blanchard.  About  thirty  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  you  been  with  the  Northern  Pacific 
Railroad  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Twenty  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Twenty  years  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Twenty  years — twenty-three  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Consecutively? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  familiar  with  other  roads  as  well,  and  their 
manner  of  doing  business,  I  presume  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Fairly  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  or  do  you  not  think  your  road  is  econom- 
ically operated;  too  economically  operated  to  get  good  service? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  don't. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  road  is  operated  very  economically,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  presume  so. 

Mr.  ^Iarble.  In  fact,  it  is  one  of  the  three  most  economically  oper- 
ated roads  in  the  country.     Do  you  know  whether  that  is  true  or  not? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Taking  the  percentage  of  the  total  income  put  out  for 
operating  expenses.     Do  you  know  about  that  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  what  the  policy  of  your  road  is  in 
regard  to  loading  engines?  Is  it  to  get  tonnage  at  the  expense  of 
speed  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  favor  speed,  even  at  the  expense  of  tonnage? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  To  a  hmited  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  To  a  limited  extent? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  stated  that  we  made  an  average  of  about  10 
miles  an  hour  and  that  I  thought  that  to  be  a  good  fair  speed  for  an 
ordinary  freight  train. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  roads  in  the  United  States  load  their 
freight  trains  to  within  85  or  90  per  cent  of  the  capacity  of  the 
engme? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  could  not  tell  you,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  any  considerable  number  do? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether,  in  considering  the  number  of 
tons  placed  upon  the  engine,  the  excess  loading  in  the  cars  is  taken 
into  account  by  the  operating  officers? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  is  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  they  depend  upon  the  sten- 
ciled or  marked  capacity  in  determining  that  ? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  49 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Upon  the  waybilled  weights. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  grain  is  waybilled  at  the  stenciled  capacity  of 
the  car,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  That  weight  is  corrected,  after  received,  by  the 
State  weights.  I  understand  the  grain  is  waybilled  by  the  agent  on 
the  information  given  hiiu  by  the  shipper  as  to  the  number  of  bushels 
he  has  in  the  car,  which  is  supposed  to  be  the  actual  loading. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  know  of  your  own  knowledge  whether  the 
actual   is  the  same  as  the  stenciled  capacity? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  think  approximately  grain  is  billed  the  actual 
weight,  because  I  have  had  some  tests  made. 

Mr.  AIarble.  Do  you  know  about  the  correction  of  weights  accord- 
ing to  the  State  weights? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  know  they  are  corrected. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  they  generally  raised,  lowered,  or  left  as  they 
are? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  know  they  are  both  raised  and  lowered. 

Mr.  Marble.  Both  raised  and  lowered? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir;  but  on  the  average  I  think  they  are 
approximately  correct. 

Air.  Marble.  If  you  were  made  general  manager  and  in  charge 
of  this  road,  so  far  as  the  portion  of  it  under  your  charge  is  concerned, 
with  power  to  expend  more  money  than  is  bein^  spent,  would  you 
be  able  to  help  the  service  to  the  public  by  spending  more  money? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  do  not  know  as  I  could  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  wish  you  would  try. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Will  you  ask  it  again,  please? 

Mr.  Marble.  Perhaps  I  can  make  it  clearer.  If  you  were  in  charge, 
with  full  power  to  expend  money — responsible  to  yourself  and  with 
the  idea  of  giving  a  better  public  service — could  not  you  by  spending 
more  money  give  better  service  than  is  being  given  on  your  division  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  To  a  limited  extent,  rerhaps  I  could  not  spend 
the  amount  I  would  like  to.  In  other  words,  I  could  not  secure  the 
things  I  would  like  to  in  a  short  space  of  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those  things  would  be  what? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Those  tnings  would  be  motive  power,  cars,  and 
terminal  facilities. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say,  then,  you  are  short  of  all  tlu*ee? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  To  a  certain  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  far  as  the  public  service  is  concerned? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Dimng  this  period  of  three  months  of  the  year 
only. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  undertaken  some  reconstruction  work 
recently  in  your  j^ards? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  At  Duluth.     Yes,  sir;  during  the  past  summer. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  did  you  begin  that  work? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  think  it  was  in  June. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  is  it  you  are  trj-ing  to  accomplish  there? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  hope  to  add  about  40  per  cent  to  tlie  facilities 
of  the  yard,  which  we  undertook  to  do  this  year,  but  could  not  com- 
plete on  account  of  being  unable  to  get  the  dredging  completed. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  lose  your  contractor?    Did  some  private 
firm  hire  the  man  away  from  you? 
8.  Doc.  333, 59-2 1 


50  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  was  some  piece  of  railroad  work  up  there? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  yours — I  meant  to  say  that  the  contractor  who 
started  that  work  left  your  employment  and  went  into  other  employ- 
ment and  left  you  without  a  contractor. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  believe  he  did  leave  us  for  a  short  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  iVnd  then  he  came  back  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  how  long  a  time  was  he  gone  ? 

I^Ir.  Blanchard.  The  work  was  in  charge  of  the  engineering 
department,  and  I  could  not  have  any  definite  knowledge;  but  I 
would  say  off-hand,  for  two  or  three  weeks. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  made  some  delay? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Very  much;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  torn  up  some  track  in  the  course  of  that 
work? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir.  We  have  rearranged  certain  tracks,  but 
have  not  reduced  the  facilities. 

Mr.  ]Marble.  Have  you  the  same  number  of  leads  there  in  that 
yard  that  you  had  before  this  work  began  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Practically  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  Practically  so  ?     Have  you  the  same  number  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes;  I  think  we  have  the  same  number. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  did  you  have  before  the  work  began^— 
how  many  leads  ?     Did  you  have  three  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  had  two  at  either  end. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  that? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  have  two  at  either  end. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  have  you  now? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  The  same. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  the  statement  that  you  had  three  leads,  and 
about  the  1st  of  September  you  tore  up  two  of  them  and  got  them 
out  of  the  way,  so  that  you  had  only  one,  would  be  incorrect? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  were  out  of  use  on  them  during  a  part  of 
September  on  account  of  rearranging  the  leads. 

Mr.  Marble.  During  a  part  of  September? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir ;  or  a  part  of  October. 

Mr.  Marble.  Also  a  part  of  October*? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  of  September? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Perhaps  ten  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  of  Octooer? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Perhaps  a  week. 

Mr.  Marble.  Since  then  you  had  the  same  capacity  in  that  ter- 
minal as  you  had  before  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  is  as  large  as  we  had  before;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  that  loss  of  capacity  during  that  ten  days  or  two 
weeks  lielp  to  create  this  congested  condition  and  trouble  that  you 
experienced  ? 

Mr.  Bxanchard.  To  a  certain  extent;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  shipments  of  coal  fn)ni  the 
docks? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Fairly  so. 


CAB   SHOKTAOE.  51 

Mr,  Marble.  Do  you  know  what  proportion  of  coal  shipped  from 
those  docks  is  being  demanded  and  taken  by  your  company? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Of  all  the  docks  at  Duluth  and  Superior?  What 
you  might  call  the  head  of  the  Lakes  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  I  mean  docks  that  you  move  cars  from  and  set 
empties  to,  either  directly  or  indirectly. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  supply  cars  to  c<»rtain  docks  that  are  handled 
by  other  companies  before  they  reach  the  docks. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  all  cars  you  supply.  What  proportion  of  the 
coal  that  you  take  out  is  company  coal,  and  what  is  private  coal? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  varies  considerably  at  certain  times.  There 
are  times  when  it  is  perhaps  60  per  cent  for  the  company  and  40  per 
cent  private,  and  there  are  times  when  it  is  40  per  cent  company  and 
60  per  cent  private. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  how  is  it  running  now — how  has  it  been  for  the 
last  five  days? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  About  60  per  cent  private  commercial  coal  and 
about  40  per  cent  for  the  company,  I  would  say. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  vou  favormg  the  commercial  coal? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  All  we  can;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Trj-ing  to  relieve  the  famine  as  much  as  possible? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  your  company  short  of  coal  at  points  west  of  you? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  have  understood  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  find  they  are  short  on  company  coal  and  you 
move  it  there  for  the  company? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  have  trouble  in  getting  empties  to  furnish 
for  the  coal  business  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Sufficient? 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  have  sufficient  cars? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No;  I  would  say  we  have  trouble  in  getting  suf- 
ficient cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  the  pay  rolls  for  your  division  pass  under  your 
eye  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Not  in  detail. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  you  have  an  understanding  of  how  they  are  made 
up — that  is  part  of  your  business? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  the  wages  made  largely  on  a  mileage  basis,  or 
are  thev  on  time? 

Mr.  6lanchard.  Largely  on  mileage. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  mean  largely  that  the  train  crews  get  through 
in  ten  hours  or  less? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Largely? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  ?«ot  ten  hours  or  less,  because  the  district  is  more 
than  100  miles  long.  I  mean  at  the  rate  of  10  miles  per  hour  is  what 
they  average. 

Mr.  Marble.  Largely  you  keep  within  that? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  try  to. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  in  practice,  do  you? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  try  to. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  succeeded  ? 


52  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Fairly  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  know  you  try  to  do  a  good  many  things  you  don't 
quite  succeed  in  doing  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  1  es,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  distance  from  Duluth  to  Fargo  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  From  Duluth  to  Staples  is  148  miles,  and  from 
Staples  to  Fargo  is  108  miles. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  would  be  a  total  of  what? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Two  huntlred  and  lifty-six  miles. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Two  hundred  and  fifty-six  miles? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  long  does  it  take  a  train  that  goes  at  a 
rate  of  10  miles  an  hour  to  travel  from  Fargo  to  Duluth? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Well,  considering  the  time  as  10  miles  per  hour, 
it  would  take  twenty-five  hours;  but  there  is  one  district  terminal 
where  trains  are  stopped  out  and  rearranged.  For  instance,  a  train 
from  Fargo  would  contain  freight  for  the  Twin  Cities  and  also  freight 
for  the  head  of  the  Lakes  that  has  to  be  switched  around. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  average  time  it  takes  a  freight 
train  to  travel  from  F'argo  to  Duluth? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  could  not  tell  you  what  it  is  between  Staples 
and  Fargo,  because  that  is  beyond  my  district. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  know,  and  there  is  no  record  which 
you  keep  by  which  you  can  ascertain  what  time  it  takes  a  train  to  go 
from  Fargo  to  Duluth? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  None  that  you  have?  ^ 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  time  does  it  take  to  travel  150  miles 
on  your  division  as  trains  are  moving  now,  during  the  month  of 
December,  we  will  say? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  From  fifteen  to  eighteen  hours. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  heard  a  list  of  complaints  read  here  this 
morning  stating  that  the  average  cars  were  delayed  for  days,  from 
twenty  and  clear  up  as  high  as  fif tv-f our  days  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Certain  individual  cars;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Certain  individual  cars — j^ou  heard  the  state- 
ment, as  I  remember  it,  that  there  were  a  large  number  that  took 
from  twenty  to  twenty-five  days?  How  do  you  explain  that  long 
time  for  the  transportation? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Well,  there  are  many  reasons  why  certain  cars 
may  possibly  get  out  of  the  re^lar  channel,  such  as,  occasionally, 
engine  failures,  being  set  out  on  the  way,  hot  boxes, bad,  order  cars  and 
various  reasons  why  individual  cars  may  get  out  of  the  regular  channel. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  think  that — we  will  say  on  a  run  of 
350  miles  that  the  average  should  be  twenty  days? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  The  average? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  would  not. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  would  you  say  would  be  a  reasonable 
average  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Three  hundred  and  fifty  miles? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Ten  to  fifteen  days. 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  53 

Commissioner  IjANE.  Ten  to  fifteen  days? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Three  humlred  and  fifty  miles.  With  the 
cars  traveling  steadily,  that  would  take  about  thuly-five  hours,  at  10 
miles  an  hour? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  would  be  a  little  less  than  a  day  and  a 
half.  Now,  then,  why  should  there  be  the  difference  between  a  day 
and  a  half  and  fifteen  days  in  the  transportation  of  those  cars? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Well,  there  are  certain  cars  that  make  it  in  mucli 
less  than  fifteen  days,  and  certain  others  that  are  unavoidably 
delayed,  as  I  have  stated,  and  which  would  make  the  average  about 
ten  to  fifteen  days,  as  I  stated. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes,  I  know;  but  that  would  mean  of  course 
that  a  great  many  would  have  to  take  thirty  or  forty  or  fifty  days  in 
order  to  bring  up  such  an  average  as  that,  if  a  day  and  a  half  travel- 
ing steadily  was  a  reasonable  time. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Well,  as  I  stated  before,  those  trains  are  made  up 
of  cars  for  different  destinations,  which  have  to  be  necessarily  re- 
switched  at  district  terminals. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  take  wheat  that  is  raised  out  in  Dakota; 
it  goes  in  great  part  either  to  Duluth  or  Minneapolis,  does  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  does. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  train  would  be  made  up  of  cars  ff)r  either 
one  of  those  destinations,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Not  wholly. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Chiefly.  The  great  volume  of  that  business 
goes  to  those  two  places? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  then,  do  you  think  that  thirteen  days 
and  a  half  is  an  unreasonable  length  of  time  to  allow  switching  at 
division  points! 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  would  appear — yes,  as  an  average.  Of  course 
you  have  taken  the  extreme  outside — fifteen  days.  I  said  ten  to  fif- 
teen days. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  think  thirteen  and  a  half  days  might 
l)e  allowed  as  a  reasonable  amount,  a  reasonable  length  of  time? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  A  total  length  of  time? 

Commissioner  Lane.  A  total  length  of  time  for-  switching  and  a 
travel  of  350  miles? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Not  for  switching  alone. 

Commissioner  I^ne.  What  would  you  include  in  addition  lo 
switching,  to  explain  the  difference  between  fifteen  days  and  a  day 
and  a  half? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Well,  I  stated  from  ten  to  fifteen  days.  That 
would  be  an  average  of  thirteen  days. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Reduce  it,  then,  to  the  lowest  figure — :ten 
days.     How  do  you  make  out  the  difference  of  eight  and  a  half  days? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Well,  on  account  of  certain  congestion — the  maxi- 
mum amount  of  business  we  are  required  to  handle  during  the  three 
months  in  the  year. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  are  preparing  for  those  tliree  months 
during  the  other  nine  months,  are  you  not? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  are  trying  to;  yes,  sir. 


54  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Blanchard,  would  ten  days  have  been 
a  fair  average  last  year? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  think  so. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  about  the  year  before — say  from 
1903? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Perhaps  the  year  before  a  little  less — in  1903; 
the  business  has  been  increasing  rapidly.  We  are  trying  to  increase 
the  facilities  to  keep  up  with  the  times. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  much  less  than  1903?  Let  us  take 
1904.     Would  ten  days  have  been  a  fair  average  in  1904? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  should  say  during  the  three  months  of  the  year; 
yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  about  that  in  1903? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  now,  that  is  the  period;  that  is  the 
fourth  summer  in  which  that  would  have  been  a  fair  average.  Now, 
what  provision  has  the  railroad  made  in  order  to  get  rid  of  that  con- 
gestion in  this  length  of  time  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  They  have  been  securing  additional  power,  addi- 
tional equipment,  and  making  additions  to  their  terminal  facilities, 
and  I  understand  they  are  double  tracking  the  road  from  Staples  to 
Fargo.     That  is  beyond  my  district. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  far  has  that  gone,  that  double  track- 
ing? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  could  not  tell  you  exactly. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Mr.  Blanchard,  the  coal  moves  largely  from 
Duluth  out  to  Dakota.     That  supplies  about  all  of  Dakota,  does  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  have  you  done — we  understand  from 
information  we  have  here  that  there  is  a  very  serious  coal  shortage 
out  there.  Of  course,  we  are  solicitous  that  that  should  be  remedied 
as  soon  as  possible.  Have  any  arrangements  been  made  by  the 
Northern  Pacific  Railroad  by  which  coal  shall  be  transported  imme- 
diately to  those  people  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  are  sending  out  the  coal  in  preference  to  other 
freight. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Since  what  time  has  that  been  your  policy? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  About  two  weeks. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Were  you  notified  prior  to  that  time  that 
there  was  any  very  great  necessity  for  coal  there  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  of  the  demands  being  made 
two  months  ago  for  cars  to  transport  coal  to  points  in  western  Min- 
nesota and  in  Dakota,  and  their  being  unable  to  get  those  cars  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  think  the  orders  were  fairly  well  filled  during 
the  months  of  September  and  the  first  part  of  October  for  coal  ship- 
ments. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  do  you  take  back  in  your  empties? 
When  you  bring  out  wheat,  carry  wheat  eastward  to  Duluth,  what 
do  you  take  back  instead  of  coal  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  take  coal  and  other  commodities. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Coal  and  other  commodities.  Do  you  know 
what  percentage  of  coal  you  take? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Of  the  entire  commodities? 


CAB  SHOBTAOE.  55 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes. 

Mr.  Blaxchard.  I  should  say  75  per  cent. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  a  greater  or  a  less  percentage  than 
you  would  take  ordinarily  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Greater. 

Commissioner  Lane.  A  greater  percentage? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Had  you  orders  in  for  cars  to  carry  coal 
from  Duluth  prior  to  that  time? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Prior  to  what  time? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Prior  to  the  time  you  mentioned  when  you 
carried  75  per  cent  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir.  We  have  orders  for  cars  for  coal, 
you  might  say,  all  the  fall,  and  in  fact  we  have  actually  brought  but 
few  empties  out  of  Duluth,  which  had  been  done  in  previous  years. 

CoDunissioner  Lane.  You  have  been  carrying  loaded  cars  west- 
ward as  well  as  eastward  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  has  been  no  great  volume  of  empty  cars 
out  of  there  westward  into  Minnesota  ana  Dakota? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Not  over  my  division. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Not  over  your  division  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  In  your  judgment,  Mr.  Blanchard.  what  is  the 
reason  for  the  coal  shortage  in  tne  West? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Of  course,  there  is  the  increase  of  settlement 
forcing  an  increase  of  consimiption. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Has  tne  normal  supply  of  coal  been  furnished 
to  those  people — that  is,  has  there  been  as  much  coal  forwarded  as 
there  was  up  to  this  time  last  year? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  think  more. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  think  more? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  should  say  so. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Can  anyone  get  a  car  for  coal  to-day,  at 
Duluth,  if  he  wishes  it  to  transport  it  up  to  Dakota? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Can  anyone? 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  do  not  wish  you  to  be  technical  about  that, 
Mr.  Blanchard.     It  is  a  matter  of  much  public  interest. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  There  is  a  difference  between  anyone  and 
everyone. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Can  a  resj>ectabie  coal  dealer  or  John  Smith, 
in  Fargo,  N.  Dak. — anyone  who  is  financially  responsible — ^et  coal 
carried  out  in  a  car  from  Duluth  and  have  it  transported  to  him  with 
reasonable  speed  to  Dakota? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir;  as  far  as  I  know. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Will  you  make  the  authoritative  statement, 
Mr.  Blanchard,  that  can  be  sent  to  these  people  in  Dakota,  and  to 
the  other  people  who  are  in  distress  at  this  time  for  lack  of  coal,  that 
anyone  wno  is  financially  responsible  mav  secure  coal  and  have  it 
transported  westward  to  them,  and  that  there  are  cars  to  be  had  for 
that  nusiness? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  could  not  do  that,  because  wo  do  not  sell  the 
coal.     The  Northern  Pacific  does  not  own  the  coal. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Will  you  provide  coal  cars  in  which  coal  may 


56  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

be  loaded  at  Duluth?  I  do  not  want  anything  that  is  technical.  I 
want  you  to  make  a  statement  that  you  can  carry  out,  if  you  can 
carry^  it  out.     I  want  you  to  see  if  it  possible. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  is  not  possible  for  us  to  furnish  cars  for  every- 
one who  would  order  cars  at  Duluth,  perhaps,  because  there  are  not 
cars  enough  to  meet  the  demands  or  requirements. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  are  not  cars  to-day  to  meet  the 
demands  for  coal  cars  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  proportion  of  the  cars  have  you  appor- 
tioned to  that  demand? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  could  not  tell  you  as  to  that  to-day,  because  I 
left  Duluth  Saturday  evening,  but  I  should  say  60  per  cent. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Sixty  per  centi 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  would  be,  approximately,  how  many 
demands  for  cars  in  to  you  at  that  time?  When  you  left  on  Satur- 
day, how  many  were  there  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Approximately^  350  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  how  many  cars  had  you  available  for 
coal? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  That  is  a  very  hard  question  to  answer,  because 
we  do  not  hold  empties  at  all.  As  far  as  I  know,  as  fast  as  the  car  is 
unloaded  at  the  merchandise  track  or  the  elevator  it  is  immediately 
sent  to  a  coal  dock. 

Commissioner  Lane.  On  that  day  you  could  estimate  the  number 
that  you  might  have  loaded  with  coal  had  you  so  desired.  I  under- 
stand it  was  your  policy.     How  many  would  there  be  out  of  350  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Sixty  per  cent  of  350;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  suppose  that  same  percentage 
obtains  to-day? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  As  far  as  I  know. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Then  in  your  opinion  there  is  nothing,  so  far 
as  the  situation  in  Duluth  is  concerned,  which  makes  it  impossible 
for  the  people  of  North  Dakota  to  get  a  sufficient  amount  of  coal? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  presume  a  sufficient  amount  of  coal  would  be 
100  per  cent. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  would  be  all  that  they  asked  for. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  That  would  be  all  that  they  asked  for;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  But  in  fact 

Mr.  Blanchard.  To  prevent  suffering,  I  should  say  so. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  to  provide  for  that  immediately? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  If,  then,  a  man  in  Dakota  should  order  six 
cars  for  coal  you  could  provide  him  with  four? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Approximately. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  that  stands  good,  does  it? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  So  far  as  I  know  of  the  business  to-day. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  is  no  reason  that  you  know  of  that 
would  interfere  with  that  policy  being  carried  out  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  quite  sure  that  advance  orders  would  not 
take  all  the  cars? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  67 

Mr.  Blanciiard.  I  couki  not  toll  how  many  advance  orders  of  coal 
would  come  in. 

Mr,  Marble.  Then  the  advance  orders  would  come  in  ahead  of  the 
others? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  That  would  be  left  to  the  coal  company  to  supply 
this  coal,  to  load  it  out  as  they  desired  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  more  than  one  coal  dock  in  Duluth? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  There  are  17  different  coal  docks  in  Duluth. 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  Seventeen,  and  they  represent  different  coal 
companies,  do  they? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  the  actual  number  there? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  do  not. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  of  a  combination  of  coal  dealers 
which  refuses  to  sell  to  individuals  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  do  not. 

Commissioner  Lane.  All  that  you  can  say  is  that  if  the  individual 
can  get  his  coal  in  Duluth,  that  you  will  give  cars,  60  per  cent  of  the 
cars  he  might  demand  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you,  at  any  time,  during  this  crop  season,  ship 
empties  west  for  more  grain  rather  than  take  tho  time  to  switch  them 
to  the  coal  docks? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  at  all?  Then,  practically,  you  have  not  sent 
empties  west? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Practically  none. 

Mr.  Marble.  None  at  all? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Blanchard,  I  want  to  understand  one 
thing  very  clearly.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  40  per  cent  of  the  coal 
needed  in  the  Northwest  is  not  going  to  be  furnished  by  your  line — is 
that  the  way  you  put  it  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Is  not  going  to  be  furnished  ? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes.  You  say  you  have  facilities  for  60 
per  cent,  and  I  draw  the  inference  that  you  mean  that  40  per  cent  of 
the  coal  demanded  will  not  go  over  your  line. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  can  if  we  secure  more  cars. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Are  you  going  to  secure  more  cars? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  hope  to. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  steps  have  you  taken  to  do  that? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Iliave  notified  the  general  office  in  St.  Paul  of  the 
necessity  of  getting  more  cars  to  load  with  the  commodities.  I 
handle  the  cars  on  my  own  division  only. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  ju.st  one  minute,  Mr.  Blanchard.  When  you 
get  these  cars  and  get  them  started,  how  fast  do  you  expect  them  to 
move  over  to  the  Dakotas  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  At  the  rate  of  about  10  miles  per  hour. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  y^ou  won't  ron.sider  if  they  go  350  miles  in  ten 
davs,  that  that  will  be  reasonable  for  those  cars? 

Nir.  Blanchard.  I  think  they  should  make  it  in  less  than  that  if 
they  are  given  preference. 


feS  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  That'  would  be  about  a  mile  and  a  half  per  hour, 
taking  twenty-fours  each  day.  Mr.  Kruttschnitt,  of  the  Harriman 
lines,  I  am  told,  recently  made  the  statement  that  taking  the  freight 
cars  of  the  country  they  worked  one  day  in  ten  and  the  rest  of  the 
time  they  were  waiting  to  be  loaded  and  unloaded,  and  Mr.  Krutt- 
schnitt criticised  the  shippers  and  consignees,  but  you  seem  to  put 
some  of  the  trouble  on  to  the  switching,  judging  from  the  statement 
you  gave  Commissioner  Lane;  that  is  to  say,  you  think  that  a  car 
going  10  miles  an  hour,  making  a  trip  in  a  day  and  a  half,  mi^ht 
fairly  be  held  the  balance  of   ten  days  to  provide  for  the  junction 

Eoints  and  the  switching.  How  much  do  shippers  and  consignees 
oth  lose  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  They  lose  from  two  to  four  days  in  unloading  and 
reloading  their  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  remedy  for  that  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir;  except  the  one  that  we  have  applied,  the 
penalty  of  demurrage. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  raised  the  demurrage,  increased  the  demur- 
rage, how  would  it  De? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  might  improve  matters. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  recommend  that? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  am  not  prepared  to  say. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  far  as  you  know,  is  demurrage  collected  on  all 
cars  detained  by  shippers  or  consignees  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Unless  it  can  be  shown  that  it  is  the  fault  of  the 
railroad  company  that  they  were  not  unloaded. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  know  in  railroad  circles  it  is  a  great  question 
now  as  to  expediting  the  movement  of  freight  cars — stimulating  their 
movement  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  familiar  with  the  discussions  going  on. 
Have  you  any  suggestions  on  that  line  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Nothing  special. 

Mr.  Marble.  Nothing  special  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  anything  to  propose  to  prevent  the  diver- 
sion of  cars — foreign  cars — by  railroad  companies? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  have  not,  except  that  which  has  already  been 
decided  upon  recently. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  of  increasing  the  per  diem? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Increasing  the  per  aiem. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  it  possible,  Mr.  Blanchard,  for  you  to  expe- 
dite the  transportation  of  coal  to  the  Dakotas? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No  more  than  I  am. 

Commissioner  Lane.  No  more  than  you  are? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Take  the  several  cases  that  we  have  infor- 
mation of  where  there  is  a  lack  of  coal.  Take  the  case  Mr.  Major 
spoke  of  this  morning  on  the  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  On  the  Northern  Pacific  road  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  He  was  on  the  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  did  not  hear  of  anything  being  said  of  the 
Northern  Pacific  road  this  morning. 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  59 

Commissioner  Laxe.  You  do  not  know  that  there  are  any  on  the 
Northern  Pacific  r«)a(l  i 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  know  there  is  a  general  shortage  of  coal,  but 
I  do  not  know  of  any  suffering  or  any  parties  entirely  out  of  coal, 
personally. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  if  it  should  appear,  from  information 
developed  at  tliis  hearing,  that  there  are  communities  upon  the  line  of 
your  roail  where  there  is  a  serious  coal  shortage,  will  you  say  that  ypu 
would  make  a  special  effort  to  liurr\'  coal  to  those  people  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  would. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  say  that  you  would  see  it  was  done? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Then,  we  will  ask  that  if  there  are  such  cases 
as  that  that  they  be  brought  immediately  to  your  attention. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  All  right,  sir. 

Mr.  BrxN.  Did  you  brmg  a  map  of  the  Duluth  yard  of  the  North- 
ern Pacific  with  you  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  did,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Will  you  let  us  see  it  and  show  it  to  the  Commissioners'? 

(Witness  produce.spaper.) 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Tliat  is  the  yard  and  that  is  the  main  working 
yard  of  Duluth,  where  the  cars  arrive  and  the  cars  are  switched  and 
classified  as  to  their  destinations  and  as  to  the  different  industries. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Does  the  red  on  that  map  represent  the  new  condition 
of  the  yard  and  the  white  colors  the  ola  portion  of  the  yard? 

Mr.  Blanchard,  The  red  represents  the  proposed  additions,  which 
were  not  all  completed. 

Mr.  BuNN.  They  are  largely  completed  now,  are  they  not? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir;  largely. 

(The  witness  and  Commissioners  discussed  the  map.) 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  large  an  increase  in  that  yard  is  there  provided 
for? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Provided  for?     Forty  per  cent. 

Mr.  Bunn.  How  much  was  finished  so  as  to  be  available  during  the 
recent  congestion  or  pressure? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Practically  none  of  it  for  actual  operation,  but 
we  were  compelled  to  use  it  for  storage  tracks  for  a  snort  time  on 
account  of  being  connected  only  at  one  end. 

Mr.  Bunn.  And  why  was  it  not  completed  at  an  earlier  date,  Mr. 
Blanchard? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Because  the  ccmtractor  who  was  making  the 
ground  did  not  complete  his  work  in  time. 

Mr.  Bunn.  That  is  on  filled  ground,  as  I  understand  it. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Antl  the  contractor  went  off  and  did  somebody  else's 
work  for  two  or  three  weeks? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissi<mer  Harlan.  What  is  the  total  mileage  of  that  yard? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  About  2S  miles. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  is  the  new  mileage? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  About  12  miles. 

Mr.  BiNN.  That  is  only  one — the  main  one  of  the  Northern 
Pacific  yards  in  Duluth  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  That  is  the  main  one. 


60  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Have  you  a  larjier  map  showing  the  Northern  Pacific 
properties  in  Duluth^ 

Mr,  Blanciiard  (producing  map).  The  properties,  yes,  sir;  but  it 
does  not  show  the  tracks. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Will  you  tell  the  Commissioners  and  describe  this 
situation  and  tell  them  what  the  practical  difficulties  are  in  handling 
freight  in  Duluth  and  what  trouble  there  has  been  as  to  the  inbound 
trains  arriving  on  what  is  known  as  the  third  district  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  The  inbound  trains  arrive  on  what  is  known  as 
the  third  district,  or  what  was  known  as  the  old  St.  Paul  and  Duluth 
Railroad  in  Carlton,  a  distance  of  20  miles.  That  is  the  rearranging 
yard,  and  the  cars  are  set  there  and  taken  from  there  to  the  different 
elevators,  merchants,  docks,  commission  houses,  and  various  indus- 
tries, extending  through  westerly  from  West  Duluth  to  Fourth  ave- 
nue east,  a  distance  approximately  8  miles — taken  on  the  switching 
track. 

^[t.  Bunn.  Have  you  facilities  to  take  care  of  the  business  of  the 
Soo  Road  and  the  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul  at  this  location? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir;  in  addition  to  that  and  the  D.,  M.  and 
N.  Railway  and  the  Duluth  and  Iron  Range. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Those  companies  have  not  provided  their  oa^ti  facili- 
ties and  terminals  at  Duluth  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  They  have  not. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Now,  you  say,  you  have  not  sent  any  empties  westward 
from  Duluth  this  year  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Practically  none. 

Mr.  Bunn.  What  was  the  practice  in  prior  years? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  In  prior  years  we  sent  from  25  to  30  per  cent  of 
the  total  number  of  cars  hauled  into  Duluth  west  empty. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  a  real  car  shortage  on  those  lines? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir;  there  is  an  actual  car  shortage  all  the 
time. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  know  the  conditions  that  obtain 
on  other  divisions  as  to  the  distribution  of  cars  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Now,  Mr.  Blanchard,  you  have  loads,  apparently,  for 
all  cars  brought  in  with  wheat. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Loads  to  go  west.  , 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir.     Now-^ — 

Mr.  Bunn.  Has  that  added  to  the  congestion  and  the  difficulty  of 
doing  the  work  in  Duluth;  and  if  so,  tell  tnese  gentlemen  how  that  is? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  has,  very  materially.  If  a  car  arrives  contain- 
ing grain,  after  it  is  set  out  at  Rice's  Point  yard  it  is  set  to  the  elevators, 
which  was  formerly  switched  out  empty  and  made  into  a  train  and  sent 
west,  whereas,  instead  of  sending  it  west  empty  now  we  are  com- 
pelled to  switch  it  to  some  coal  dock,  making  that  one  more  movement. 
Then  we  take  it  out  again,  making  another  movement,  which  requires 
an  especial  amount  of  switching  to  be  done. 

Mr.  Bunn.  How  many  cars  have  you  had  in  Duluth  to  load  at  one 
time?     What  is  the  largest  number? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  The  largest  number  at  Duluth  or  the  head  of  the 
Lakes? 

Mr.  Bunn.  The  head  of  the  Lakes. 


CAR   SHOBTAGE.  61 

Mr.  Blancuard.  Aboul  seven  hundred. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  must  have  understood  me  wrong,  because  that  is 
not  what  you  stated  to  the  Commissioners. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Loaded  cars  for  the  west. 

Mr.  BuxN.  Loaded  cars  in  the  yard. 

Mr.  BuvNciiARD.  In  the  yard.  I  thought  vou  meant  westbound. 
Oh,  yes;  we  have  had  about  3,500  in  the  yard. 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  many  are  there  now,  roughly  speaking? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Roughly  speaking,  there  are  fifteen  or  eighteen 
hundred. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  is  the  normal  number^ 

Mr.  Blanchard.  The  normal  number  is  about  that. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Then  you  would  say  that  this  extreme  congestion, 
which  was  congested  more  this  fall,  is  gradually  coming  to  the  normal 
condition  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Providing  we  can  get  the  cars,  we  will  have  no 
more  trouble  or  congestion. 

Mr.  Bi'NX.  How  many  cars  have  you  been  sending  west  from 
Duiuth  during  the  last  two  or  three  weeks  of  coal? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  All  points;  you  mean  the  Twin  Cities  and  the 
Northwest  ? 

Mr.  BuNN.  Everywhere. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  About  350,  I  should  say. 

Mr.  BuNN.  About  350  per  day? 

Mr.  Bl^vnchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  going  on? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir;  as  far  as  I  can  state. 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  many  are  sent  west  now? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  We  are  sending  about  250  to  300. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Two  hundred  and  fifty  to  300? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  cars  do  you  put  into  a  train? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  varies  according  to  the  size  of  the  engine. 
On  westbound  trains  from  25  to  38. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  weight? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  WTiat  tonnage? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  The  tonnage  of  the  cars  or  the  tonnage  of  the 
entire  train? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Of  the  entire  train. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Fourteen  hundred  to  1,800  tons. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  does  the  westbound  differ  from  the 
east  bound? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  would  say  in  favor  of  the  eastbound  haul  about 
400  tons.  On  the  westbound  the  first  37  miles  out  of  Duiuth,  either 
westbound  toward  the  Dakotas  or  southbound  toward  St.  Paul,  there 
is  a  1  per  rent  grade  which  requires  two  engines  to  haul  what  one 
('ii<:ine  can  take  into  Duiuth.     Beyond  the  top  of  the  hill  it  is  all  right. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Mr.  Blanchard,  the  very  fact  that  you  have 
been  sending  these  loads  west,  does  that  add  to  the  delay  in  bringing 
in  wheat  and  reduce  the  quantity  of  wheat  brought  in  during  the 
period  of  one  month  or  two  months  or  three  months? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  It  does. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Thai  li  all. 


62  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  other  commodities  are  you  sending 
west  now  besides  coal  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Lumber,  merchandise,  coke,  wood,  forest  products, 
and,  in  fact,  almost  every  commodity. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  rather  new  traffic,  is  it  not,  this 
year?     You  sent  more  empties  west  last  year,  I  understood. 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  those  commodities  are  new  traffic  for 
this  year? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir;  it  is  just  the  increase. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Just  the  increase? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  The  natural  increase. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  switching  passenger  trains  in  your  yard,  are  you 
now  or  have  you  been  in  such  a  state  that  your  freight  switching  had 
to  l)e  put  out  of  the  way  for  the  passenger  trains  to  make  room  for 
them? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Nothing  of  that  sort?  Do  the  passenger  trains  turn 
on  the  same  tracks  where  you  switch  freight  ?     Does  not  that  interfere  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No  more  than  in  previous  years.  The  same  con- 
ditions exist  now  that  have  always  existed. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  that  condition  that  exists  now — that  turning  of 
passenger  trains  on  the  same  tracks  that  you  switch  freight  cars 
on — always  existed? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  does  that  delay  you  some  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  For  a  few  moments  only. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  to  clear  the  way  for  the  passenger  trains  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  you  send  out  250  to  300  cars  of  coal.  What 
proportion  of  that  comes  to  the  Twin  Cities? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  About  125  cars,  I  should  say. 

Mr.  Marble.  One  hundred  and  twenty-five  out  of  250? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  half? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Nearly  half.  When  I  say  the  Twin  Cities  I 
mean  points  beyond  the  Twin  Cities,  of  course,  on  the  Milwaukee 
road  and  the  Soo  Line  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  Moving  down  south? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Generally  south. 

Mr.  Marble.  Into  South  Dakota? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  presume  so.  I  do  not  know  the  exact  destina- 
tion of  the  same — where  they  take  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  then  the  balance — the  other  half — about  what 
per  cent  would  you  say  was  company  coal  going  up  there  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  About  40  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  40  per  cent  company  coal  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  40  per  cent  coming  this  way  company  coal? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  imderstand  you  to  say  that  about  40  per  cent  of 
that  coal  you  ship  is  company  coal? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  am  not  shipping  any  company  ooal  to  the  Twin 
Cities,  because  we  are  getting  Illinois  coal. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  63 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  to  say,  that  of  the  coal  that  goes  west  the 
Northern  Pacific  takes  about  40  per  cent  ? 

Mr.  Blancharu.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Or  do  they  take  about  40  per  cent  of  the  total  ship- 
ments out  of  Duluth? 

Mr.  Blanciiard.  They  take  about  40  per  cent  of  the  total  ship- 
ments.    I  will  say,  40  per  cent  of  the  total  shipments  out  of  Dulutn. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  they  ship  250  cars  and  100  are  their  own  company 
coal? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  One  hundred  and  twenty-five  comes  to  the  Twin 
Cities? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  you  have  for  the  west  about  25  cars  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Seventy-five. 

Mr.  Marble.  Let  us  see.  One  hundred  cars  company  coal,  and 
half  comes  to  the  Twin  Cities,  making  225  cars,  so  that  leaves  you  about 
25  cars  for  the  general  public  in  North  Dakota  and  out  along  the 
line — is  that  right? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  think  there  is  more  than  that 

Mr.  Marble.  More  than  25  cars? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  more,  do  you  think? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  I  think  there  are  60  to  75  cars  per  day  going, 
west  of  commercial  coal  to  North  Dakota. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  far  as  you  know,  your  road  has  not  been  confis- 
cating any  coal  that  is  shipped  ? 

Mr.  Blanchard.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Blanchard. 

(The  maps  referred  to  in  this  witness'  testimony  are  received  in 
evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibits  Nos.  1.2  and  3  "  to  Mr.  Blanchard's 
testimony.) 

D.  M.  Philbin,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  Superior? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  \L^rble.  And  have  you  brought  with  you  a  large  number  of 
train  sheets? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  Will  you  get  from  the  room  where  they  are  some  of 
those  sheets,  so  that  I  can  examine  you  concerning  them? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

(The  witness  proceeds  to  procure  sheets  requested  by  counsel.) 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  tne  sheets  for  Octooer  28? 

Mr.  Philbin.  October  28? 

Mr.  \LvRBLE.  Yes,  sir.  Now,  ignoring  the  passenger  trains  and  the 
time  freight,  how  many  trains  of  grain  were  moved  on  that  day  over 
your  division? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  will  see.     (Examines  papers  in  his  possession.) 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  your  position? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Assistant  general  superintendent  in  charge  of  what 
is  known  as  the  Lake  distnct. 


64  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  ()f  what  road? 

Mr.  Philbin.  The  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  your  duties  are  what? 

Mr.  Philbin.  General  supervision  of  the  work  of  the  district — 
train  service  as  well  as  maintenance. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  movements  of  trains,  and 
do  you  direct  them  through  your  subordinates? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  trains  of  grain  did  you  move  that  day 
into  Duluth? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Seven. 

Mr.  Marble.  From  where? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Cass  Lake. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  distance  from  Duluth? 

Mr.  Philbin.  One  hundred  and  fifty-six  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  One  hundred  and  fifty-six  miles  on  your  division? 
Give  us  the  running  time  of  each  of  those  trains  for  that  day  for  that 
156  miles. 

Commissioner  Lane.  One  hundred  and  fifty-six  miles  from  Cass 
Lake  to  Duluth? 

Mr.  Philbin.  To  Superior,  to  be  correct  about  it.  The  average 
running  time  of  those  trains  all  during  the  month  of  October,  to  my 
exact  knowledge,  was  fourteen  hours  and  twenty  minutes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Better  than  10  miles  an  hour  for  that  division? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  give  us  each  of  those  seven  trains? 

Mr.  Philbin.  It  would  take  half  an  hour  to  do  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Let  him  take  them  out,  and  call  another 
witness,  and  let  him  figure  that  out  and  recall  him. 

Mr.  Marble.  Very  well.  Please  figure  out  the  running  time  of 
those  seven  trains. 

Mr.  Philbin.  The  average? 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  the  average,  but  state  each  one  separately. 

Mr.  Philbin.  All  right. 

The  examination  of  Mr.  Philbin  was  suspended  for  the  present. 

E.  E.  Heiner,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  St.  Paul,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  business? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Sales  agent  of  the  St.  Paul  &  Western  Coal  Company. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  a  very  large  concern? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Moderately  so;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  one  of  the  largest  coal  shipping  concerns  of  this 
section  of  the  country. 

Mr.  Heiner.  One  of  the  largest ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Approximately  how  many  cars  of  coal  do  you  handle 
per  year? 

^fr.  Heiner.  Well,  that  is  a  pretty  hard  question  to  answer. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  you  can  get  the  cars? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Ordinarily  we  would  handle  about  200  to  250  per 
day,  if  we  could  get  the  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  hampered  by  lack  of  transportation 
facilities  ? 


CAS  SUOBTAQE.  66 

Mr.  Heiner.  We  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  Very  much? 

Mr.  Heixer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  behind  are  you  in  your  orders  now? 

Mr.  IIeixer.  We  are  about  1,300. 

Mr.  Marble.  Thirteen  hundred  cars? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  you  had  orders  in  for  those  cars  with 
the  railroads? 

Mr.  IIeixer.  Our  oldest  orders  date  back  to  the  15th  of  November. 

Mr.  Marble.  All  your  orders  up  to  the  15th  of  November  are  filled? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know,  as  far  as  vour  customers  are  con- 
cerned, up  to  what  point  their  orders  are  filled;  as  to  whether  that 
coal  has  all  arrived? 

Mr.  Heixer.  I  don't  understand  the  question. 

Mr.  Marble.  Taking  the  arrival  of  coal  at  the  consuming  point, 
do  you  know  how  far  behind  you  are  ? 

Mr.  Heixer.  No;  I  could  not  answer  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  complaints  from  consumers  as  to  the 
slow  movement  of  cars? 

Mr.  Heineb.  We  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  much  complaint? 

Mr.  Heiner.  A  great  many. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  of  those  letters  with  you? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  have"  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  they  on  file  in  your  office  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  could  dig  them  up. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  vou  do  that  and  send  them  in  to-morrow? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  should  be  pleased  to. 

Mr.  Marble.  Give  us  a  general  statement  as  to  that  slow  move- 
ment, as  to  how  long  it  has  continued  and  how  slow  it  is. 

Mr.  Heiner.  WeU,  of  course,  we  only  have  specific  cases,  you 
know,  where  they  are  slow,  A  man  will  order  his  coal,  and  it  will 
bo  slow  on  the  road  several  days,  and  then  he  will  start  a  tracer 
after  it.  Of  course,  as  a  general  proposition,  we  do  not  know  how  long 
the  coal  is  delayed.  We  simply  know  where  a  man  makes  a  state- 
ment to  us  asking  us  to  hurry  certain  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  don't  keep  track  of  it  unless  you  get  a  com- 
plaint from  a  customer? 

Mr.  Heiner.  No*  we  would  not  have  occasion  to. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  your  customers  up  through  the  Northwest — 
are  they  well  supplied  with  coal  now? 

Mr.  Heij«ier.  There  is  a  great  deal  of  complaint  in  the  Northwest 
of  shortage  of  fuel. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  does  your  coal  come  from? 

Mr.  Heixer.  Duluth,  Superior,  and  Milwaukee. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  to  what  portion  of  the  country  do  you  distribute 
from  here? 

Mr.  Heiner.  We  distribute  from  Duluth  and  Superior  to  the  North- 
west— North  Dakota,  part  of  South  Dakota,  and  a  portion  of  Minne- 
sota. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  distribute  from  here  at  all? 
S.  Doc.  333, 59-2 5 


66  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Heiner.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  simply  have  an  office  here? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  Over  what  road  do  you  ship  principally? 

Mr.  Heiner.  The  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  have  demands  made  upon  you  from  day  to 
day  by  the  fuel  agent  at  Duluth  for  a  certain  percentage  of  cars 
which  are  loaded  out? 

Mr.  Heiner.  We  load  a  certain  percentage  of  railroad  fuel,  but  the 
demands  are  not  made  on  me.  That  naturally  would  come  under 
another  department. 

Mr.  AIarble.  Do  you  know  what  percentage  of  coal  that  you  load 
goes  to  the  country? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  could  not  say. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  percentage  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  could  not  say. 

Mr.  I^Iarble.  Have  you  refused  any  orders  because  of  lack  of  trans- 
portation f  acOities  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  We  have. 

Mr.  Marble,  How  many? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  could  not  say  how  many,  but  I  remember 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  be  further  behind  in  your  orders  than 
you  are  if  you  had  refused  none  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  We  would  be  much  more  behind. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  had  not  refused  to  book  orders  that  came  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  orders  have  you  refused — how  many  cars  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  could  not  answer  that— probably  five  or  six  hundred. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Five  or  six  hundred  cars  or  orders  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Five  or  six  hundred  cars.  Generally  speaking,  an 
order  usually  covers  one  car,  possibly  two. 

Mr.  ALvrble.  This  is  a  letter  written  by  you? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Signed  by  you? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Lane,  How  long  does  it  take  you  to  get  a  car  of  coal 
from  Duluth  or  Superior,  to  Fargo,  N.  Dak.  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Well,  I  could  not  say  as  to  that.  I  judge  it  takes 
four  or  five  days — not  to  exceed  that. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  movement 
of  wheat  eastward  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Can  you  give  a  reason  why  it  should  take 
ten  days  to  ship  wheat  from  Fargo  to  Duluth,  and  five  days  to  ship 
coal  from  Duluth  to  Fargo? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  could  not.  I  was  only  giving  the  five  approxi- 
mately. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  not  a  matter  of  actual  knowledge? 

Mr.  Heiner.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  letter  has  been  identified  and  I  would  like  to 
have  it  in  the  record. 

I  will  ask  you  if  this  is  a  fair  sample  of  the  letters  you  have  %\Titten 
refusing  these  orders  ?     You  say  you  have  refused  five  or  six  hundred  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes, 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  67 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  say  you  are  still  how  many  cars  behind? 
Mr.  Heiner.  Thirteen  hundred — in  that  neighborhood. 
Mr.  Marble.  Including  all  orders  that  have  come  to  youf 
Mr.  Heiner.  Eighteen  to  nineteen  hundred  orders. 

St.  Paul  and  Wbstkrn  Coal  Company, 

St.  Paul,  Minn.,  December  10,  1906. 

Meeen.  Gartland  &  Dunubvt, 

Yale,  S.  Dak. 
Gentlemen:  Your  order  of  the  7th  f«)r  two  cars  of  Hockine  Lump  via  Great  Northern 
at  hand.     We  are  simply  burio<l  with  orders  via  the  Great  Northern,  and  we  are  prac- 
tically receiving  no  cars  via  thia  line.     Under  the  circumstances  we  would  not  care  to 
entertain  the  order. 

Yours,  very  truly,  E.  E.  Hbinbh,  N.  W.  S.  A. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  order  was  for  two  cars,  but  you  say  most  of 
them  were  for  one  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  As  a  general  thing. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Can  that  point  be  reached  over  the  Northern 
Pacific? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  should  think  that  is  a  local  point — Yale,  S.  Dak. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  whetner  the  conditions  are 
different  at  the  competitive  points,  where  the  Great  Northern  and 
Northern  Pacific  cross  each  other,  from  those  conditions  which 
obtain  the  points  which  are  not  competitive? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  could  not  say. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  any  of  these  orders  been  refused  because  the 
country  dealer  did  not  belong  to  some  association  or  other? 

Mr.  Heiner.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  accept  orders  from  anyone  who  chooses  to  send 
them  in? 

Mr.  Heiner.  If  they  have  got  the  money,  we  will  accept  their 
orders. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  far  as  the  cars  can  be  procured,  you  will  accept 
orders  whether  they  behmg  to  any  association  or  not? 

Mr.  Heiner.  The  matter  of  association  does  not  cut  any  figure, 
provided  he  is  a  dealer  and  has  money. 

Mr.  Marble.  Suppose  the  citizens  of  these  towns  should  get 
totrether  and  send  you  an  order? 

Mr.  Heiner.  We  protect  the  dealer. 

Mr.  Marble.  Ana  you  protect  the  regular  dealer  in  the  town? 

Mr.  Heiner.  The  regular  dealer. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  it  is  an  irregular  dealer  you  would  not  sell  him 
coal  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Perhaps  that  policy  may  explain  some  of  this  condi- 
tion in  the  country. 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  do  not  see  how  it  could  necessarily. 

Commi.s.sioner  Lane.  At  times  such  as  this  you  would  not  follow 
such  a  policy  as  that? 

Mr.  Heiner.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  know  there  is  suffering  in  the  country? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  if  an  order  was  sent  to  you,  you  would 
fill  it? 


68  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Heiner.  If  they  were  suffering  in  a  certain  town  we  would  fill 
it,  provided  the  man  Has  the  money. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  have  to  be  satisfied  that  he  was  one  of  the 
regular  dealers,  or  else  that  there  was  suffering,  before  you  would  fill 
the  order,  even  if  the  money  accompanied  it? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  do  you  do  that? 

Mr.  Heiner.  That  is  the  same  with  reference  to  any  section  of  the 
country.  There  are  a  certain  number  of  dealers  and  they  have  a  cer- 
tain amount  of  money  in  the  business;  they  make  themselves  reojular 
dealers — they  invest  six  or  seven  hundred  dollars  in  their  sheds, 
scales,  and  one  thing  and  another. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  feel  a  sort  of  duty  to  protect  them? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  they  protect  you  in  some  way? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Not  that  I  am  aware  of. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  you  say  you  have  refused  five  or  six  hundred 
orders,  simply  because  you  could  not  get  cars. 

Mr.  Heiner.  From  regular  dealers;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  asked  you  what  portion  of  the  coal  that  is  shipped 
from  Duluth  is  taken  by  the  railroad  companies  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  I  could  not  answer  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  your  docks  at  Duluth — are  they  so 
arranged  that  you  could  load  more  cars  if  you  could  get  them  ? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  that  capacity? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  a  day  could  you  load  at  Duluth? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Oh,  I  figure  that  we  could  load  250. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Both  at  Duluth  and  Superior.  Scarcity  of  laborers 
have  hampered  dock  operations  to  a  great  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Labor  is  scarce? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Labor  is  scarce. 

Mr.  ^Iarble.  Well,  jou  could  load  250  cars  if  you  could  get  them? 

Mr.  Heiner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

A.  O.  DiESON,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  was  examined, 
and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Dieson,  you  reside  in  St.  Paul,  Minn.? 

Mr.  Dieson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  with  the  M,  A.  Hanna  Coal  Company? 

Mr.  Dieson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  what  capacity? 

Mr.  Dieson.  Chief  clerk. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  ^vith  the  business  and  operations  of 
the  M.  A.  Hanna  Coal  Company? 

Mr.  Dieson.  To  a  certain  extent;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  a  dock  at  Duluth? 

Mr.  Dieson.  At  Superior. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  Superior? 

Mr.  Dieson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  coal  that  you  ship  is  brought  by  boat  to 
Superior  and  shipped  by  rail  to  the  west  and  south? 


CAR   SHORTAQB.  69 

Mr.  DiESON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Over  what  roads  do  you  ship,  principally? 

Mr.  DiESON,  Great  Northern,  Northern  Pacilic,  and  Omaha. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  average  business  per  year? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Well,  the  company  was  only  recently  organized,  so  I 
am  not  in  the  position  to  state. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  business  per  day  is  in  sight  this  year,  if 
you  could  fill  your  orders? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Well,  1  would  say  100  to  125  cars  a  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  how  much  are  you  shipping? 

Mr.  DiESON.  From  45  to  75. 

Mr.  Marble.  YiThat  would  you  say — do  you  average  nearer  75 
than  45? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Around  60  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  what  period  of  time  are  you  speaking  of  now? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Well,  I  am  speaking  of  the  last  three  months. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  sliipping  more  or  less  a  day  now  than  during 
November,  say? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Well,  a  little  less,  I  g^ess. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  Uttle  less,  and  why  is  that;  have  you  not  more 
orders  ? 

Mr.  DiESON.  We  have  got  plenty  of  orders;  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Getting  fewer  cars? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Well,  we  do  not  get  the  cars  we  want. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  you  are  shipping  less  now  than  you  did  in 
November;  why  less?  lou  can  not  get  as  many  cars  as  you  did  in 
November? 

Mr.  DiESON.  We  are  not  supplied  with  the  necessary  cars  to  fill  the 
orders. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  that  limit  your  shipments? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then,  you  are  not  getting  as  many  cars  as  you  did  in 
November  per  day? 

Mr.  DiESON.  I  can  not  sav  exactly.     I  do  not  watch  this  closely. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  shipping  less  than  in  November — you  are 
certain  of  that? 

Mr.  DiEsoN.  Well,  probably,  about  the  same  or  a  little  less. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many  cars  are  you  short  on  your  orders? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Between  900  and  1,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  have  you  refused  any  orders  because  of  car 
shortage  ? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Yes,  sir*  we  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  now  many? 

Mr.  DiBsoN.  I  could  not  say  now  many  orders  we  have  refused. 
I  have  not  kept  any  track  of  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  estimate  it  approximately? 

Mr.  DiEsox.  Well,  no;  I  could  not  say.  Do  not  handle  that 
entirely;  just  handle  a  part  of  it. 

Mr.  MARBLE.  Some  hundred;  or  a  good  many? 

Mr.  DiESON.  A  good  many  orders. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  Have  you  been  behind  in  your  orders  for 
this  thousand  cars? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Oh,  about  the  1st  of  November  or  a  Uttle  before  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  a  thousand  cars? 


70  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  DiESON.  The  latter  part  of  October  or  the  first  part  of  Novem- 
ber. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  did  you  begm  to  be  behind  at  all  in  your 
orders  ? 

Mr.  DiESON.  The  latter  part  of  October. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  kept  up  to  your  orders  up  to  the  latter  part  of 
October? 

^It.  Dieson.  Pretty  well. 

Mr.  Marble^  Well,  you  mean  by  that  that  you  did  not  keep  up 
to  your  orders  ? 

Mr.  DiESOX.  We  did  not  keep  right  up;  no. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  behind  were  you  the  first  part  of  October? 

Mr.  DiESON.  I  could  not  say;  I  have  not  looked  it  up,  so  I  could 
not  answer  offhand.     I  could  tell  by  the  reports  in  the  office. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  part  of  these  60  cars  a  day  that  you  are  ship- 
ping now  goes  to  the  railroad  company? 

Mr.  DiESON.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  part  comes  to  the  Twin  Cities? 

Mr.  DiESON.  I  could  not  tell  you  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Will  you  look  up  those  figures  and  let  us  have  them 
to-morrow  morning — what  part  of  the  coal  you  are  shipping  goes  to 
the  railroad  company  and  what  part  goes  South,  and  down  through 
this  city? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  complaints  of  late  in  regard  to  the 
movement  of  coal  you  ship  ? 

Mr.  Deeson.  We  have  had  some;  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Letters? 

Mr.  Dieson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  those  letters? 

Mr.  DiESON.  No,  sir;  I  have  not  them  with  me. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  they  in  your  office  ? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  find  those  as  well  ? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  bring  them  with  this  other  information.  You 
had  a  good  many  of  those  complaints  in  proportion  to  your  business  ? 

Mr.  DiESON.  We  get  some  occasionally.  A  man's  shipments  are  a 
Uttle  slow  and  he  writes  in  about  it ;  that  is  the  only  way  we  have  of 
knowing  that  shipment  is  delayed,  by  a  man  wanting  to  trace  the  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  1  wish  you  would  make  a  note,  Mr.  Dieson,  or  we 
will  have  one  made  for  you  of  these  figures,  so  you  will  be  sure  to 
bring  us  what  we  want.  You  have  that  in  mind,  have  you?  We 
want  to  know  what  proportion  of  your  shipments  through  November, 
and  what  per  day,  if  you  can  give  it  to  us  from  day  to  day,  were  com- 
panv  coal  ? 

Air.  DiESON.  From  what  time  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  From  the  1st  of  November  to  date — that  were  for  the 
railroad  companv  and  what  proportion  came  to  the  Twin  Cities? 

Mr.  DiESON.  And  what  proportion  came  to  the  Twin  Cities? 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  any  go  anj-where  else  than  down  here?  Then 
take  it  over  the  Northern  Pacific  and  Great  Northern  and  Soo  roads 
—did  you  ship  to  any  other  direction? 


OAK  SHORTAGE.  71 

Mr.  DiESON.  We  ship,  of  course — we  ship  out  on  the  Milwaukee 
line. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  want  the  proportion  going  on  those  three — the 
Northern  Pacific,  the  Great  Northern,  and  the  Soo? 

Mr.  DiESON.  You  mean  this  railroad  fuel  question? 

Mr.  Marble.  No;  I  want  to  know  what  proportion  of  coal  went 
in  that  direction,  and  I  want  to  know  what  proportion  of  your  ship- 
ments were  railroad  fuel,  and  also  the  correspondence — the  letters 
coniplaining  of  slowness  of  movement. 

Mr.  DiESON.  You  want  the  proportion  of  shipments,  too — com- 
pany stations,  commercial  business,  on  each  line  ? 

MT.  Marble.  I  want  to  know  what  proportion  of  your  business 
was  commercial  business  and  what  proportion  was  railroad  business, 
and  I  want  to  know  what  proportion  of  your  total  business  went  to 
the  Northwest,  and  also  wnat  proportion  of  that  was  railroad  busi- 
ness, and  what  proportion  was  commercial  business,  divided  in  that 
way. 

Mr.  DiESON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Maurle.  Please  keep  each  of  the  three  railroads  separate,  as 
suggested  by  me — the  Soo,  the  Great  Northern,  and  the  Northern 
Pacific — as  to  the  coal  taken. 

Mr.  DiESON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  heard  the  testimony  given  this  morning  as  to 
selling  regular  dealers  only.     Is  that  the  policy  of  your  company? 

M"  DiEsoN^   We  try  to  protect  the  regular  dealer  as  far  as  possible. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  if  an  irregular  dealer  or  a  committee  of  citizens 
send  in  for  coal  you  decline  to  fill  the  order? 

Mr.  DiESON.  We  hold  that  if  a  man  has  Ms  money  invested  in 
equipment  he  is  entitled  to  protection,  as  he  carries  his  stock  the 
year  around  to  supply  the  trade,  and  they  need  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  vou  decline  to  fill  tlie  orders  from  anybody  else? 

Mr.  DiESON.  It  makes  too  many  accounts  on  the  books. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  you  decline  to  fill  the  order? 

Mr.  DiESON.  If  a  man  was  a  dealer  we  would  fill  the  order. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  he  was  a  regular  dealer,  you  would  fill  the  order? 

Mr.  DiESON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  if  he  were  not  a  regular  dealer? 

Mr.  DiESON.  We  do  not  cater  to  that  trade. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  vou  say  "no"  in  response  to  that  question? 
Would  you  fill  the  order  from  one  who  was  not  a  regular  dealer  ? 

Mr.  I^iESON.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  All  the  coal  companies  have  the  same  agree- 
ment or  understanding  in  respect  to  filling  orders  for  regular  dealers? 

Mr.  DiESON.  I  do  not  know. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  know  whether  any  other  coal 
companies  use  the  same  pohcy? 

Mr.  DiESON.  No ;  not  that  I  know  of. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  know  whether  they  have  the 
same  policy  or  not  ? 

Mr.  DiESON.  No ;  I  do  not.     I  am  not  very  familiar  with  the  others. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  is  no  such  thing  as  a  coal  dealers' 
association  i 


72  CAE   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  DiESON.  Well,  I  do  not  know  about  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  determine  this  policy  for  yourself? 

Mr.  DiESON.  No,  sir;  I  do  not.  I  am  just  an  employee  of  the 
company. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  understand  that. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Have  you  ever  seen  your  dock  at  Superior? 

Mr.  Dieson.  Yes;  I  have  seen  it. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  you  know  its  capacity — its  loading  capacity  of 
yoiu"  own  knowledge? 

Mr.  Dieson.  No  ;  I  do  not. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  do  not  know  that  it  could  load  125  tons  a  day? 

Mr.  Dieson.  I  know  that  is  what  I  have  heard,  is  all.  I  have 
heard  the  statement  made  that  the  dock  would  handle  that  many 
cars. 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  much  coal  have  you  got  up  there  on  your  wharf  ? 

Mr.  Dieson.  I  do  not  handle  that  part  of  it. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  know  nothing  about  that? 

Mr.  Dieson.  No. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  talk  about  loading  60  cars  a  day — 2,400  tons  a 
day.  How  long  would  your  stock  last  if  you  could  do  that  ?  Do  you 
know? 

Mr.  Dieson.  I  am  not  in  possession  of  the  figures  stating  the 
tonnage  on  hand. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  with  those  figures  I  asked  for,  please  include 
figures  as  to  the  st©ck  of  coal  on  hand  at  Superior — the  number  of 
tons. 

Mr.  Dieson.  I  guess  that  could  be  furnished  all  right. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

C.  P.  White,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  was  examined 
and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  White,  you  reside  at  Duluth? 

Mr.  White.  At  Superior. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  in  the  coal  business? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Of  what  company? 

Mr.  White.  Pittsburg  Coal  Company. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  what  capacity? 
,  Mr.  White.  As  general  manager. 

Mr,  Marble.  You  have  docks  at  Superior? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  capacity  of  those  docks? 

Mr.  White.  Storage  capacity? 

Mr.  Marble.  No;  the  loading  capacity.  How  many  cars  a  day 
can  you  load? 

Mr.  White.  Well,  we  can  load  five  or  six  hundred  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  From  five  to  six  hundred? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  plenty  of  coal  there? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  large  supply? 

Mr.  White.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Approximately,  how  many  tons? 

Mr.  White.  We  have  about  400,000  tons,  in  round  figures,  now. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  73 

Mr.  Maeble.  Are  you  up  with  your  orders? 

Mr.  White.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  behind  are  you  ? 

Mr.  White.  About  1,200  cars  at  tne  present  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  you  been  behind  ? 

Mr.  White.  Oh,  it  has  run  that  way  for  six  weeks  or  two  months. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  been  behind  for  six  weeks  or  two  months? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  behind,  in  days,  would  you  say  that  you  are? 

Mr.  White.  Well,  I  should  say  that  we  could  catch  up  with  these 
orders  in  about  a  week,  if  we  were  to  run  exclusively  on  these. 

Mr.  Marble.  Without  getting  in  new  ones? 

Mr.  White.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  a  day  are  you  shipping? 

Mr.  White.  Oh,  from  250  to  300. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  shipping  from  Duluth  from  250  to  300? 

Mr.  White.  Duluth  and  Su])erior;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  proportion  of  the  coal  shipped  by  you  is  for  the 
railroad  use? 

Mr.  White.  Something  over  half;  I  should  say,  possibly,  55  per 
cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  of  the  remaining  45  per  cent,  how  much  goes  to 
the  Twin  Cities? 

Mr.  White.  That  would  be  simply  an  estimate. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  as  near  as  you  can  make  it  on  an  estimate? 

Mr.  White.  The  statement  that  I  drew  off  here,  of  what  we  were 
behind  on  Saturday,  the  1,200  cars,  did  not  include  railroad  coal.  It 
was  commercial  coal;  and  of  this,  about  700  cars  were  for  the  com- 
pany, about  200  for  the  Twin  Cities,  and  the  balance  for  towns  on  the 
range  back  of  Duluth. 

Mr.  Marble.  May  I  see  the  figures? 

Mr.  WnrPE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  These  fibres  which  you  give  me  are  a  list  of  the 
unfilled  orders  calling  for  immediate  shipment,  December  15,  1906? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  have  segregated  these  according  to  the  rail- 
road from  which  the  orders  came? 

Mr.  White.  According  to  the  railroads  and  according  to  the 
territory, 

Mr.  Marble.  This  does  not  include  any  orders  from  the  railroads? 

Mr.  White.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  of  your  shipments,  you  have  said  you  have  given 
55  per  cent  to  the  railroads  ? 

Mr.  White.  Yes;  I  think  that  is  about  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Shall  I  read  this  memorandum? 

Great  Northern,  direct  points 147 

Great  Northern,  via  Soo  Line  (140J-70-30) 100 

247 

What  does  that  mean? 

Mr.  White.  It  means  the  shipments  for  points  on  our  line,  and 
that  is  about  the  proportion  we  would  naturally  ship  via  the  Great 
Northern— Great  Northern  and  the  Soo  Line,  both  taking  the  Soo 
Line  coaL 


74  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Two  hundred  and  forty-seven,  then,  on  the  Great 
Northern  Hne — Great  Northern  via  Chicago,  Rock  Island  and  Pa- 
cific— that  should  be  reversed  and  leaving  Duluth  by  the  Great 
Northern,  and  so  with  the  next  line  above? 

Mr.  White.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  it  should  read: 

Great  Northern,  direct  point,  147;  Soo  Line,  via  Great  Northern,  100;  Chicago, 
Rock  Island  and  Pacific,  Great  Northern,  and  Minneapolis  and  St.  Louis,  and  Chicago, 
Burlington  and  Quincy,  Great  Northern,  9;  total,  256;  Twin  Cities  (140i-70),  70; 
total,  326;  Northern  Pacific,  direct  points,  45;  Northern  Pacific  via  Soo  (140f-70^200), 
270;  Northern  Pacific,  Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul,  90;  Chicago,  Rock  Island, 
and  Pacific,  Minneapolis  and  St.  Louis,  and  Chicago,  Burlington  and  Quincy,  9;  total 
414;  Twin  Cities,  70;  total,  484;  Omaha,  30;  Twin  Cities,  70;  total,100;  Duluth  and 
Iron  Range,  44;  Duluth,  Missabe  and  Northern,  150;  total,  1,104. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  refused  orders  because  of  the  lack  of  cars? 

Mr.  White.  We  are  not  soliciting  orders.  We  are  taking  in  what 
orders  reach  us  through  the  mail,  but  we  are  not  soliciting  orders  at 
the  present  time. 

yLr.  Marble.  You  say  you  are  not  soliciting — that  is,  because  of 
lack  of  cars? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  you  have  refused  orders — are  all  orders  received 
by  you  figured  in  this  statement  ? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  find  that  loaded  cars  are  switched  away 
from  your  docks  promptly  after  being  loaded? 

Mr.  White.  They  are  taken  out  of  the  dock  promptly. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  they  leave  the  city  promptly. 

Mr.  White.  Not  in  all  cases. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  they  now  leave  the  city  promptly;  at  the  present 
time? 

Mr.  White.  I  would  say  not  in  all  cases  again. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  percentage  of  the  cases  do  they  not  leave 
promptly  ? 

Mr.  White.  I  can  not  say  as  to  that.  Our  coal  is  sold  at  a  price 
on  board  of  cars  at  the  docks,  and  our  care  of  it  ceases  when  it  is 
delivered  to  the  railroad  at  the  docks.  We  do  not  follow  it  through 
to  destination,  in  other  words. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  switched  away  from  the  dock  promptly? 

Mr.  White.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  are  delays  in  some  cases  before  leaving  Duluth? 

Mr.  White.  There  are  some  delays  before  they  get  out  of  town 
with  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  delay — what  extent  of  time? 

Mr.  White.  We  do  not  keep  track  of  it.  I  have  just  known 
instances. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  your  correspondents  complained  of  slow  move- 
ment of  coal  in  the  country? 

Mr.  White.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  slowness  of  movement  does  that  correspond- 
ence show? 

Mr.  White.  I  do  not  follow  that  through.  I  see  very  little  of  it 
myself.  It  comes  into  our  sales  office,  but  we  do  get  requests  to 
trace  cars  tln-ough  that  have  been  on  the  way  from  several  days  to 
several  weeks 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  75 

Mr,  Marble.  More  in  the  present  year  than  formerly  1 

Mr.  White.  I  have  not  personally  seen  any  more;  no. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  that  every  year? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir;  to  a  certain  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  not  say  it  is  any  worse  this  year  than  any 
other  years  ? 

Mr.  White.  I  think  it  is,  as  an  expression  of  opinion. 

\fr.  Marble.  You  have  not  examined  all  of  the  correspondence 
and  therefore  can  not  testify  ? 

Mr.  White.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  you  hold  a  large  stock  of  coal  at  the  head  of  the 
Lake  during  July  and  August? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  you  not  find  it  pretty  hard  to  induce  people  to  buy 
and  ship  coal  during  those  months? 

Mr.  White.  Very  hard. 

Mr.  BuxN.  You  make  an  effort  to  do  that,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  White.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  write  letters  and  advise  people  in  the  country  to 
get  their  coal  m  July  and  August,  do  you  not  ? 

Mr.  WnriE.  Yes,  sir;  and  send  our  traveling  men  out  in  the 
endeavor  to  get  them  to  take  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  they  do  very  little  of  it? 

Mr.  White.  Very  little. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  j'ou  know  that  the  railroad  companies  do  the 
same  thing  and  that  they  did  last  summer? 

Mr.  White.  I  believe  they  did.     I  have  been  told  that  they  did. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  said  that  you  was  some  thousand  cars  snort  on 
your  orders — on  your  cars  that  you  have  not  received.  Do  you  know 
anything  about  how  short  the  railroad  companies  are  on  their  coal? 

Mr.  White.  W^hy,  we  have  an  unlimited  order  to  load  for  them. 
I  do  not  know  how  far  they  are  behind. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Is  it  not  true  that  they  are  as  far  behind  as  the  public  is  ? 

Mr.  White.  I  think  they  probably  are. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Why  is  that?  Is  it  because  they  have  not 
anticipated  their  orders  in  Julv  and  August? 

Mr.  BuNN.  I  should  be  glad  to  have  that  answered  by  our  general 
manager,  because  we  have  not  been  able  to  take  care  of  it  ourselves. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  understood  the  railroad  company  could  have 
carried  coal  to  private  consumers  in  July  and  August? 

Mr.  White.  The  question  was,  as  to  my  understanding,  as  to 
whether  they  could  have  carried  it  in  July  and  August? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  White.  I  think  they  could. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  try  to  persuade  them  to  take  railroad  coal 
out  and  store  it  for  railroad  use  when  cold  weather  should  come? 

Mr.  White.  W^e  did  not  urge  the  matter  of  storing  it.  We  tried 
all  through  the  season  to  get  them  to  take  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  followed  the  same  poUcy  as  the  country  dealers 
did,  did  they? 

Mr.  White.  Well,  I  should  say — ^yea. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 


76  CAR   SHOBTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  witness  is  excused. 
(Thereupon  the  witness  was  excused.) 

E.  N.  Saunders,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  was  exam- 
ined and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Saunders,  where  do  you  reside  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  St.  Paul. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  is  your  business  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  I  am  president  of  the  Northwestern  Fuel  Company, 
a  coal  corporation — coal  distributors, 
'    Mr.  Marble.  A  large  concern? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Pretty  good  size. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  docks  at  Duluth  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Duluth  and  Superior. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  loadmg  capacity  of  those  docks? 

Mr.  White.  In  point  of  tons? 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  cars  per  day? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Well,  350  to  400  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  are  you  shipping  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Well,  running  from  200  to  250. 

Mr.  ]Marble.  Is  it  on  account  of  shortage  of  cars  that  you  do  not 
ship  more  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Short  and  irregular  in  their  receipt.  We  can  not 
load  our  capacity  if  we  get  cars  in  the  middle  of  the  afternoon.  It  is 
like  operating  a  coal  mine,  you  have  not  the  cars  all  day  so  that  you 
can  work;  you  can  not  work  up  to  the  capacity,  but  we  are  averaging 
about  250  cars  a  day. 

Mr.  !Marble.  If  the  cars  came  to  you  earUer  in  the  day  and  you 
had  a  steadier  supply 

Mr.  Saunders.  We  could  run  up  to  400. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  behind  in  your  orders? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Yes,  sir;  to  some  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Well,  in  point  of  time,  I  think — it  is  irregular.  We 
commenced  to  get  "buried,"  as  we  say,  about  the  1st  of  October  and 
about  the  middle  of  November  we  desisted  soliciting  new  business 
and  called  the  men  in  off  of  the  road.  We  are  getting  plenty  of  busi- 
ness as  fast  as  we  can  get  it  loaded  without  soliciting. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  the  business  that  comes  to  you  limited  on  account 
of  shipping  capacity  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  We  have  not  taken  in  any  by  mail  or  anywise  since 
the  15th  of  the  month.  We  are  trying  to  get  the  earlier  obligations 
out  of  the  way. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many  cars  behind  are  you? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Well,  at  the  head  of  Lake  Superior  and  Milwaukee, 
about  3,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  behind  in  Milwaukee,  also  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  are  you  behind  in  Superior  and  at 
Duluth? 

Mr.  Saunders.  I  think  it  is  about  2,000  or  2,200  there. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  most  recent  order  booked,  you  would  say, 
was  when  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  About  the  15th  of  last  month. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  the  15th  of  last  month? 


OAR  SHORTAGE.  77 

Mr.  Saunders.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  have  returned  the  orders  that  came  to  you 
since  then? 

Mr.  Saunders.  We  have  decHned  to  enter  them 

Mr.  Marble.  What  volume  of  orders  have  come  to  you  since  the 
15th  of  October? 

Mr.  Saunders.  I  could  not  answer  that,  personally.  The  sales 
department — the  sales  agent — is  just  piu^uing  that  polic}'  as  far  as 
they  can  without  seriously  inconveniencing  anybody. 

Mr.  Marble.  Could  you  estimate  the  amount  of  these  orders? 

Mr.  Saunders.  The  whole  situation  in  the  last  thirty  days  has  been 
tending  to  duplicate  business.  For  instance,  we  have  been  booking 
orders — the  same  man  that  bought  coal  from  us  ha^  gone  and  ordered 
coal  from  eight  or  ten  coal  companies  in  competition  with  us,  and  we 
have  had  fictitious  orders  piled  up.  I  suppose  a  large  number  of 
orders  we  have  on  file  now  would  be  fictitious. 

Mr.  Marble.  By  "fictitious"  you  moan  duplicate? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Duplicate.  I  think  the  bulk  of  the  trade  in  the 
country  recently  have  been  placing  orders  for  their  wants  with  tlu*ee, 
four,  or  a  half  dozen  fellows,  some  of  them,  at  the  same  time 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  correspondence  complaining  of  the 
slow  movement  of  cars  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  I  have  not  directly  had  any  myself.  There  has 
been  the  usual  amount  of  that.     We  have  that  everv  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  any  more  this  year  tfian  usual? 

Mr.  Saunders.  No  more  this  year  than  usual.  Once  in  a  while 
a  car  gets  out  of  line  and  is  unusually  delayed.  There  has  been  very 
little  serious  complaint  on  the  score  of  anyone  respecting  coal  after  it 
is  once  on  the  way — no  more  than  is  usual. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  proportion  of  the  coal  which  you  are  loading  is 
for  railroad  use  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  About  25  per  cent;  not  more  than  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  proportion  of  it  comes  this  way? 

Mr.  Saunders.  We  are  not  in  the  retail  business  in  St.  Paul  and 
Minneapolis,  and  we  do  not  accept  orders  in  that  business  at  all.  We 
just  try  to  keep  these  yards  supplied.  In  the  aggregate  month's 
business  from  the  head  of  the  lake,  about  25  per  cent  would  come  into 
St.  Paul  and  Minneapolis. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  how  much  to  the  northwest  and  west? 

Mr.  Saunders.  That   is  what  we  call  line  trade.     It  does  not  all 

f;o  out  to  what  would  be  known  as  west  from  Duluth.  It  comes 
roin  Southwest,  down  on  the  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul  and  Omaha 
railroad  system  that  reaches  out  into  Nebraska. 

Mr.  Marble.  Could  you  tell  us  what  per  cent  of  your  shipments 
come  to  the  territory  reached  by  the  Great  Northern  or  Northern 
Pacific  and  the  balance. 

Mr.  Saunders.  What  we  call  line  business,  I  should  say  about  33 
per  cent — 30  per  cent  of  it. 

Mr.  Makble.  Of  the  250  cars  you  are  shipping,  possibly  30  or  35 
per  cent  go  into  that  territory? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  We  read  a  letter  here  a  while  ago  from  Gartland  & 
Dunlevy,  Yale,  S.  Dak.  You  ship  to  them — this  is  one  of  your  cars, 
is  it  not — represents  the  car  of  coal  shipped  by  your  company  ? 


78  CAB   SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Saundebs.  Yes;  that  is  one  of  our  cars. 

Mr.  Mabble.  That  is  a  notification  such  as  you  send  to  the  country 
dealer  when  you  ship  coal  to  the  country? 

Mr.  Saiindebs.  Car  number  and  weight;  yes. 

Mr.  Mabble,  This  card,  which  is  addressed  to  Gartland  &  Dunlevy, 
is  one  of  the  regular  cards  of  the  Northwestern  Fuel  Company,  and 
conies  to  me  in  a  letter  from  this  firm,  and  if  I  may  read  it  here,  and 
ask  some  (questions  that  relate  to  it,  we  will  get  it  into  the  record. 
The  letter  is  as  follows : 

DuLUTH,  Minn.,  November  IS,  1906. 
Gartland  &  Dunlevy.  Yale,  S.  Dah. 

We  ship  to  you  this  day  car  noted  below. 

Invoice  will  be  sent  to  you  from  the  general  office. 

Car  initial,  G.  N.     No.,  35172.     Gross  weight,  4,736.    Actual  tare,  35,000.    Actual 
net  weight,  82,360.     Kind  of  coal,  Hok  Lp.    Marked  weight  of  car,  351. 
Yours  truly. 

Northwestern  Fuel  Co. 

All  settlements  will  be  based  on  above  actual  net  weights  and  subject  to  oiu-  condi- 
tions of  sale  and  shipment. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  date  does  the  letter  bear? 

Mr.  Mabble.  The  letter  is  dated  November  18. 

Commissioner  Lane.  This  car — would  you  say  that  this  car  was 
shipped  on  November  13? 

Mr.  Saundebs.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  miles  is  it  from  Duluth  to  Yale, 
S.  Dak? 

Mr.  Saundebs.  About  450  miles.  I  would  say  that  incidents  Uke 
that  sometimes  happen  by  the  car  breaking  down  or  getting  in  a 
wreck.  I  know  that  cars  like  that — and  I  would  not  be  surprised  if 
when  that  is  run  down  it  is  shown  that  the  car  had  been  in  a  wreck. 
It  generally  takes  a  month  to  get  it  rounded  up,  when  something  of 
that  kind  happens. 

Mr.  Mabble.  How  long  since  they  complained  to  you  that  they  had 
no  cars? 

Mr.  Saundebs.  I  do  not  personally  have  charge  of  that  correspond- 
ence, and  could  not  say.  This  is  the  first  I  have  heard  of  that  myself. 
I  have  a  general  sales  agent  that  handles  all  that  correspondence, 
which  is  very  voluminous.  We  have  some  three  thousand  or  four 
thousand  accounts  on  our  books. 

Mr.  Mabble.  You  do  not  think  there  is  any  complaint  to  be  made 
against  the  railroad  company  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Saundebs.  I  do  not  think  but  what  they  are  all  doing  the  best 
they  can. 

Mr.  Mabble.  And  you  think  the  best  they  can  is  good  enough? 

Mr.  Saundebs.  No;  I  think  if  they  had  better  facilities  in  the 
three  months  in  the  fall  that  they  could  serve  the  public  a  little 
better,  but  my  observation  of  their  efforts  to  handle  this  business 
efficiently  leads  me  to  think  that  they  are  doing  so  as  fast  as  they  can. 
They  are  doing  the  best  they  can  with  what  they  have  to  do  with, 
and  as  fast  as  they  can  they  are  bettering  it,  and  they  show  uniform 
di^osition  to  our  company  to  keep  up  that  programme. 

Mr.  Mabble.  Your  criticism,  if  you  macle  any  at  all,  would  not 
be  of  the  methods,  but  of  the  facilities? 

Mr.  Saundebs.  Lack  of  facilities.  The  business  seems  to  have 
outgrown  in  certain  places  the  facilities;  for  instance,  at  the  head  of 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  79 

Lake  Superior.  The  coal  business  is  increasing  very  rapidly  there — 
at  the  rate  of  10  to  15  per  cent  a  vear.  It  has  gone  up  from 
2,500,000  to  over  5,000,000  tons  in  the  last  six  or  seven  or  eight 
years,  and  it  is  still  rapidly  increasing.  The  increase  in  a  large 
number  of  craft  on  the  lakes  is  making  it  easier  and  cheaper  to  get 
coal  there,  and  there  are  new  firms  starting  in  there  everv  year  to 
enlarge  those  facilities  and  to  take  advantage  of  the  market  to  be 
reached  from  there,  and  that  condition  of  affairs,  coupled  with  the 
enlargement  that  the  railroads  have  made  in  the  east  of  their  facili- 
ties for  getting  coal  to  the  lake,  has  got  a  verv  active  competition  in 
the  business.  People  are  reaching  out  in  alf  directions  in  the  west 
to  build  up  the  coal  business.  I  do  not  think  the  railroad  facilities 
at  Superior  have  kept  up  to  this,  but  I  have  their  assurances  that  it 
is  coming  pretty  near  up  with  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  shipping  more  fuel  or  less  than  last  year 
from  Superior? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Up  to  the  1st  of  December  our  business  ran  just 
about  the  same.  Smce  that  time  we  have  fallen  off,  as  compared 
with  last  September,  about  50,000  tons. 

Mr.  Marble.  Fallen  off  since  the  1st? 

Mr.  Saunders.  About  50,000  tons. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  there  is  more  shortage  of  coal 
in  the  country  this  year  than  last? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Well,  I  do  not  think  there  is  very  much  more 
shortage,  but  it  is  not  as  well  distributed — the  coal  is  not  as  well  dis- 
tributed— and  it  is  very  poor  in  some  places  that  are  a  little  harder 
up  than  usual. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  some  places  there  is  more  distress? 

Mr.  Saunders.  And  some  places  they  are  better  off.  There  is,  of 
course,  a  great  variety  of  opinion  in  the  country.  These  dealers  that 
handle  the  coal  in  the  interior — we  do  not  retail  in  the  interior  or 
carry-  any  coal  except  in  St.  Paul  and  Minneapolis,  beyond  our  regular 
yards — and  the  dealers  in  the  country  bougnt  their  coal  this  year  as 
beforehandedly  as  has  been  their  custom.  We  shipped  a  ^ood  deal 
of  coal  in  June,  Julj,  and  August  to  interior  points.  There  is  a  great 
deal  of  our  anthracite  tonnage  goes  out  in  those  months  and  is  distrib- 
uted to  the  people.  The  bituminous  tonnage  is  later  in  moving,  and 
the  storage  facilities  on  the  lines  of  all  the  railroads  in  the  DaKotas, 
as  well  as  in  Minnesota,  are  somewhat  limited  for  stocks,  and  hereto- 
fore, with  the  exception  of  a  slight  inconvenience,  things  have  moved 
along  pretty  good.  This  is  the  first  year  there  has  been  a  howl  that 
anybody  is  liable  to  "freeze  to  death."  I  have  been  in  the  business 
thirty-six  years.  There  has  been  a  little  inconvenience  here  and 
there,  but  it  has  always  been  easily  remedied  by  a  little  extra  effort 
on  the  part  of  the  shippers  or  the  railroad  people  to  accommodate 
those  points. 

Mr.AiARBLE.  You  think  this  howl,  as  you  call  it,  is  unwarranted  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Well,  I  would  not  say  it  is  unwarranted,  because 
the  people  do  not  like  Ui  face  the  prospects  of  being  out  of  coal,  and 
I  "howl"  for  them. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  ovm  any  Great  Northern  stock? 

Mr.  Saunders.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  interested  in  railway  stocks! 

Mr.  Saunders.  No,  sir. 


80  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Directly  or  indirectly? 

Mr.  Saunders.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  heard  the  testimony  concerning  selling  to  asso- 
ciation dealers  only — is  that  true  of  your  company? 

Mr.  Saunders.  We  sell  any  trade  as  dealers.  Our  business  is 
wholly  confined  to  regular  dealers,  except  to  consumers  who  buy  at 
wholesale,  manufacturers,  gas  companies,  mills,  and  all  people  that 
are  not  engaged  in  distributing  coal  at  retail  we  sell  to  direct;  but 
it  would  be  very  bad  policy  and  it  would  injure  the  prospects  of  get- 
ting coal  into  tne  western  country  if  the  wholesaler  were  to  promis- 
cuously sell  or  ship  a  single  carload  of  coal  to  the  consumer.  If 
we  were  to  make  a  practice  of  going  to  Jamestown  or  any  other 
western  town  and  go  around  and  solicit  a  part  of  a  carload  from 
one  man  and  a  part  of  a  carload  from  another  and  ship  that  carload 
to  one  designated  consignee,  we  would  kill  the  retail  dealer  there, 
and  the  result  would  be  that  at  this  time  of  the  year  we  would  have 
no  coal  at  any  place. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  do  you  restrict  your  business  to  regular  dealers? 

Mr.  Saunders.  If  we  did  not  do  it  to  that  extent,  it  would  necessi- 
tate our  charging  higher  prices.  We  could  not  conduct  our  business 
and  do  a  retail  busmess  over  the  territory  that  we  can  do  a  whole- 
sale business  in.     I  think  that  is  manifest. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  do  you  not  sell  to  irregular  dealers  if  they  have 
the  money  to  pay  for  the  coal  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Because  they  are  general  consumers.  What  we 
call  an  irregular  dealer  is  a  consumer  nine  times  out  of  ten,  and  if  his 
neighbor  has  a  coal  yard  in  his  town  and  trying  to  make  a  few  dollars 
in  handling  coal  and  justify  himself  in  handling  coal  there,  this  fel- 
low "does  not  like  to  see  his  neighbor  make  a  few  dollars  and  wants 
the  coal.  And  they  are  generally  the  richest  men  in  the  small  town. 
Nine  times  out  of  ten  it  will  be  the  banker  or  the  richest  merchant 
who  wants  to  beat  the  poor  fellow  who  wants  to  run  a  coal  shed. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  sell  copI  to  the  farmers'  elevators  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  We  sell  coal  to  the  farmers'  elevators  in  all  direc- 
tions where  they  have  established  a  coal  retailing  business.  We  do 
not  consider  farmers'  elevators  as  irregular  dealers  if  they  go  into 
the  coal  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Saunders,  you  say  that  the  facilities  at  Duluth  ind 
Superior  are  limited.  You  have  coal-mining  interests  down  in  West 
Virginia  and  Ohio,  have  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Quite  an  extensive  one,  and  you  have  been  shipping 
from  that  country  up  there  for  a  great  many  years? 

Mr.  Saunders.  Ever  since  we  commenced  to  use  coal. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Do  you  think  their  facilities  are  any  shorter  up  here 
than  they  are  down  there? 

Mr.  Saunders.  No,  sir.  We  have  been  trying  the  last  five  years 
to  get  our  coal  to  Lake  Erie  both  from  West  Virginia,  Ohio,  and  f*enn- 
sylvania  points,  and  the  greatest  difficulty  that  we  have  encountered 
in  that  country  in  the  past  years  has  been  our  inability  to  get  coal 
moved  to  Lake  Erie  in  sufficient  quantities  dviring  the  open  season 
of  navigation  to  enable  us  to  get  our  stock.  This  year  the  eastern 
roads  are  doing  better.     They  are  gradually  getting  on  top  of  their 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  SI 

i  1),  and  we  have  got  what  we  consider  stocks  of  coal  at  the  head  of 
Lake  Superior  to  take  care  of  our  re^lar  trade. 

Mr.  Marble.  Just  one  quesrton.  1  have  another  one  of  these  let- 
ters sent  to  me.  I  want  to  read  just  a  line  to  Mr.  Saunders.  This  is 
from  the  Taft  Elevator  Company,  Hillsboro,  N.  Dak. 

December  15,  1906. 
In  rcgani  to  (Y»al  shortage,  we  can  also  cay  our  order  was  in  since  July  for  coal  to  fill 
our  sheds,  and  it  did  not  come.     Finally,  we  sent  a  man  to  find  out  why  and  were 
flatly  refused  by  two  shippers.    We  do  not  belong  to  the  coal  dealers'  aaaociation, 
but  finally  got  a  shipment,  which  we  sell  at  their  prices. 

Would  you  say  that  your  company  was  not  one  of  the  two  or  three 
that  were  referred  to? 

Mr.  Saunders.  I  \^ill  not  undertake  to  answer  anything^  in  refer- 
ence to  that;  but  I  can  find  out  for  you.  Our  Mr.  H.  E.  Smith,  who 
is  the  Northwestern  sales  agent  of  the  company,  could  testify  as  to 
that.     I  never  heard  of  that  concern  myself,  personally. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  unfortunately  did  not  send  the  names  of  the 
companies  refusing  tnem. 

(Witness  was  excused.) 

D.  M.  Philbin,  recalled. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  was  the  date  concerning  which  I  asked  you  for 
the  mnning  time? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Twenty-seventh  and  28th.  I  took  the  25th,  26th, 
27th,  and  28th. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  on  the  28th  you  ran  seven  trains? 

Mr.  Philbin.  On  the  27th  we  ran  seven  trains. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  give  us  the  running  time  of  each  of  those 
trains? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Fourteen  hours  and  thirty  minutes;  seventeen  hours 
and  thirty  minutes ;  sixteen  hours  and  fifteen  minutes ;  seven  hours  and 
forty  minutes ;  twelve  hours  and  forty-live  minutes ;  sixteen  hours  and 
fifty  minutes. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  was  the  seven  hours — was  that  a  fast  freight? 

Mr.  Philbin.  It  was  a  train  that  did  not  have  full  tonnage. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  light  train? 

Mr.  Philbin.  A  li^jht  train ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Ana  you  took  out  some  other  days  as  well  I 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  give  the  26th. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  trains  on  that  day  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Four. 

Mr.  Marble.  Wliat  was  the  time  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Fifteen  hours  and  fifteen  minutes  for  the  two  of 
them;  seventeen  hours  for  a  third;  eighteen  hours  and  ten  minutes  for 
the  fourth. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  were  the  two  stations? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Cass  Lake  and  Superior. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  the  distance? 

Mr.  Philbin.  About  160  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  Bei^nning  with  the  time  the  train  started  and  ending 
when  it  reached  Superior? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir;  the  time  they  registered  out  of  Cass  Lako 
until  they  registered  into  Superior. 
S.  Poc.  333, 5^JJ 6 


82  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  you  subpoenaed  the  dispatcher  from 
Cass  Ijake  west  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  a  dispatcher  at  Cass  Lake? 

Mr.  Philbin.  There  is  a  dispatcher  at  Crookston;  dispatching  for 
the  next  division  west  is  done  at  Crookston. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Perhaps  you  can  trace  that  up  and  find  the 
time  that  is  actually  made.  I  would  like  to  see  how  ten  days  is 
absorbed  in  two  days'  journey. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  will  not  show  delays  after  the  train  is  ordered  and 
before  it  gets  power,  for  instance,  ready  to  start  out.  The  registering 
out  is  done  nearly  the  instant  the  train  leaves  the  station,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  delays  in  getting  power  would  not  be  shown 
there? 

Mr.  Philbin.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  whether  there  were  delays  at  the  terminal  after 
registering  in,  in  getting  the  trains  set  to  the  place  where  the  cars  are 
to  go — that  would  not  be  shown  there  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Unloading? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  Philbin.  The  train  sheets  simply  show  the  train  after  it  has 
arrived  at  Superior  and  the  conductor  has  registered  in  there,  then 
the  register  on  that  sheet — then  the  car  ticket  becomes  a  yard  record. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  record  have  you  that  will  show  the  train  move- 
ment of  a  train  over  two  or  three  divisions  ?  By  putting  the  sheets  of 
two  divisions  together? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir;  but  that  does  not  show  the  individual  car. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  shows  the  train? 

Mr.  Philbin.  It  shows  the  train,  but  it  is  a  train,  for  instance,  that 
bears  the  number  of  the  engine  that  hauls  it.  An  extra  hauled  by 
engine  No.  1510,  known  as  extra  1510,  and  on  the  other  division  it 
would  be  another  engine,  and  might  be  known  as  extra  No.  1540, 
but  you  could  not  trace  the  cars  that  way. 

^Ir.  Marble.  Grand  Forks  is  on  your  road,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Not  on  my  division. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  on  your  coad? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  ^Iarble.  And  so  is  Minot? 

^Ir.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  from  Duluth  to  Minot? 

Mr.  Philbin.  That  I  could  not  tell  you  without  a  time  card. 

Mr.  Marble.  Approximately,  do  you  know  how  far  it  is  from 
Grand  Forks? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes ;  it  is  about  325  or  330  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  do  you  consider  a  fair  time  for  a  train  of  dead 
freight  to  make  from  Grand  Forks  to  Superior — that  you  would  be 
contented  with  as  an  operating  railroad  official? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Well,  by  dead  freight  you  mean  grain? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes;  a  train  load  of  grain,  for  instance. 

Mr.  Philbin.  About  three  days  to  three  and  one-half  days.  I 
would  be  satisfied  with  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  do  you  actually  accomplish?     Do  you  know? 

Mr.  Philbin.  About  four  days  and  a  half. 


OAB   SHORTAGE.  83 

Mr.  Marble.  You  actually  accomplish  about  four  days  and  a  half? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir;  on  the  average. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  during  this  crop  season  moved  trains  in 
four  and  a  half  days? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  we  have;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  From  farther  west  from  that  has  there  been  more 
delay? 

Mr.  Philbin.  That  I  am  not  familiar  with — with  that  district — 
so  that  I  can  not  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  the  next  division  west  of  Grand  Forks. 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  tonnage  that  is  put  on 
these  trains  now  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  In  my  district? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  you  been  in  ^our  present  position? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  have  been  in  my  present  position  aoout  four  years — 
with  the  Great  Northern  Company  about  six  or  seven  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  familiar  with  the  tonnage  placed  upon 
engines  all  the  time  you  have  been  with  the  company  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  the  engines  more  heavily  loaded  now  than  they 
were  six  years  ago? 

Mr.  Philbin.  They  are  not  loaded  to  any  greater  percentage  of 
their  hauling  capacity.  They  haul  heavier  loads,  by  reason  of 
improved  grades  that  they  work  on.  Tlie  grades  have  been  so 
improved  tliat  the  same  engines  can  haul  a  bigger  load. 

5Ir.  Marble.  Do  trains  make  better  or  poorer  time  than  they  did 
six  vears  ago  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  they  make  poorer  time  than  they  did  six 
years  a^o. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  to  what  do  you  attribute  that? 

Mr.  Philbin.  To  the  increased  number  of  trains  moving. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  not  attributable  to  the  tonnaf^e? 

Mr.  Philbin.  No;  I  think  that  we  used  to  load  our  engines  just  the 
same  then  as  we  do  now — the  same  class  of  engines. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  have  been  handed  a  memorandum  taken  from  the 
sheet  left  by  you.  Looking  at  the  tonnage  of  the  trains,  here  is  train 
No.  1143,  on  November  8,  with  73  loads.  Is  that  an  extraordinary 
load? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Well,  that  is  out  of  Cass  Lake. 

Mr.  Marble.  Out  of  Cass  Lake  to  Superior. 

Mr.  Philbin.  Seventy-three  loads — tnere  seems  to  have  been  a 
good  many  of  them  small-capacity  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  note  says  that  the  tonnage  was  3,416  tons. 

Mr.  Philbin.  That  is  quite  possible. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  that  be  an  extraordinary  load? 

Mr.  Philbin.  It  would  be  a  big  load. 

Mr.  Marble.  Any  danger  of  breaking  apart? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes;  there  would  be  some  danger  of  the  draft  rigging 
being  moved  out  of  some  of  the  smaller  or  older  cars ;  but  I  have  known 
engineers  to  bring  such  a  train  through  without  any  trouble. 


84  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  you  consider  it  impracticable  to  put  cars  of 
40,000  pounds  capacity  in  such  a  train? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  should  rather  not,  on  the  front  end. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  not  put  them  up  front? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  would  not  do  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  a  matter  of  fact  you  are  using  your  smaller  cars, 
aren't  you? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes;  we  are  using  about  all  the  cars  we  have  got. 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  a  train,  Duluth  to  Cass  Lake,  1,903  tons,  is 
that  about  a  maximum  load  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  No;  they  could  haul  more  than  that,  Duluth  to  Cass 
Lake,  but  perhaps  there  was  not  more  to  go  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  is  the  iron-ore  business  into  Superior  now,  as 
compared  with  a  year  ago  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Well,  it  is  exactly  the  same.  We  are  not  doing  any 
ore  business  right  now, 

Mr.  Marble.  How  has  it  been  the  last  three  months? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Very  much  more. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  more  would  you  say? 

Mr.  Philbin.  The  exact  figures — we  hauled  this  year  6,080,000 
tons  of  ore — 80,000  tons  over  and  above  an  even  6,000,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  how  many  did  you  haul  last  year? 

Mr.  Philbin.  5,280,000  tons  total.  I  will  correct  that— 5,108,000 
tons. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  that  increased  ore  business  been  an  appreciable 
factor  in  the  congestion  in  the  yards  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Why,  to  some  little  extent,  but  not  a  very  great 
extent,  because  the  ore  is  not  handled  in  the  same  yard  that  handles 
most  merchandise,  coal,  and  grain.  We  have  a  separate  yard  for  the 
ore — it  is  about  10  miles  from  the  grain  yard. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  do  you  call  the  branch  that  brings  the  ore  into 
Superior  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  The  branch  on  which  the  dock  is  located  is  known  as 
the  Allouez  branch. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  the  branch  that  the  mines  are  on? 

Mr.  Philbin.  That  is  the  branch  the  docks  are  on. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  branch  are  the  mines  on? 

Mr.  Philbin.  It  might  be  called — I  would  call  it  the  Swan  Eiver 
and  Virginia  branch.  It  is  between  Swan  River  and  Virginia  that  the 
ore  mines  are  located. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  engines  have  you  had  in  that  ore  trade 
this  year? 

Mr.  Philbin.  About  32. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  class  of  engines? 

Mr.  Philbin.  The  largest  class  we  have  got — the  eleven  hundreds, 
that  you  spoke  of  awhile  ao;o ;  and  the  fifteen  hundred  for  road  service, 
and  a  smaller  class  for  switching  service. 

Mr.  Marble.  Thirty-two,  all  told — switching  and  all? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir.  The  number  of  engines  used  in  the  service 
varies  frequently,  because  sometimes  the  mines  are  loading  from 
stock  piles,  in  which  case  each  stock  pile  that  is  being  loaded  requires 
the  service  of  one  engine.  They  are  sometimes  loading  from  throe  or 
four  stock  piles;  somi^imes  from  only  one.  So  that  they  will  vary 
the  number  of  engines  engaged  in  the  ore  service. 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  85 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  the  last  three  months.  How  does  that  vary  as 
to  the  number  of  enjjines? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  should  say  about  from  25  to  30  in  the  last  three 
months. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  when  did  you  have  the  32  that  you  spoke  of  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Earlier  in  the  season. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  most  you  have  had  since  May? 

Mr.  Philbin.  For  one  time? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  Philbin.  Thirty-two. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tliat  is  the  maximum? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  did  you  have  last  year? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  about  24. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  got  about  how  many  more  this  year  than 
last  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Six  to  eight. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  heard  the  charge  that  there  was  a  diversion 
of  power  to  this  iron  ore  business,  which  in  a  large  part  explained 
the  slowness  of  movement  of  wheat  and  coal. 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  have  not  heard  that  charge. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  such  a  charge  be  true? 

Mr.  Philbin.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Six  engines  would  do  something,  but  you  do  not 
consider  it  an  unreasonable  amount  of  power  to  put  in  that  trade  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Oh,  no;  that  power  is  assigned  to  that  trade  in  the 
spring,  and  is  supposed  to  remain  with  it  until  the  traffic  is  com- 
pleted  in  the  fall.  We  do  give  and  take,  of  course.  We  have  taken 
engines  out  of  the  ore  trade  and  put  them  into  the  grain  trade  and 
we  have  occasionallv  borrowed  from  the  other  trades  and  put  it 
into  the  ore  trade,  but  we  knew  full  well  at  the  beginning  of  the 
season  that  we  would  be  required  to  handle  6,000,000  tons  and  we 
provided  engines  to  do  it  with,  and  we  were  not  short  of  power — of 
any  class  of  power  at  all.  The  weather  really  makes  a  great  diflference. 
We  were  not  short  at  all  until  the  bad  weather  in  November.  Then 
we  were  short  of  power,  only  because  an  engine  will  not  haul  as  many 
cars  in  November  as  she  will  in  July  and  August.  That  is  the  only 
reason  it  makes  us  short. 

Mr.  Marble.  Other  than  that,  the  iron  trade  has  not  suffered  from 
lack  of  power? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Nor  has  the  grain  trade,  so  far  as  my  district  is  con- 
cerned. 

Commissioner  Lane.  But  you  did  not  get  so  many  carloads  of 
grain  during  the  summer  months? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Oh,  no;  very  few. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Not  nearly  so  many  as  usual ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  not. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  elevators  were  not  filled — not  nearly  as 
well  filled  as  ordinarily  at  the  Ist  of  November? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Well,  I  would  not  be  prepared  to  quote  figures  on 
that. 

(Commissioner  Lane.  Wore  there  some  cars  that  you  used  last  year 
in  the  hauling  of  grain  that  were  not  used  this  year? 


86  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  the  same  cars  were  used  both  years;  in  fact, 
I  think  we  had  more  cars  in  the  grain  trade  this  year  than  we  had  last 
year. 

Commissioner  Lane.  But  you  did  not  haul  as  much  grain? 

Mr.  Philbin.  No,  because  a  year  ago  we  did  take  back  to  the  grain 
fields  a  good  many  empty  cars,  and  still  had  enough  cars  for  the  out- 
bound loading.  The  case  was  different  this  year.  We  took  back 
very  few  empty  cars.  Nearly  all  cars  received,  loaded  with  grain, 
were  returned  loaded  with  coal  or  merchandise. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Where  did  that  coal  go — where  was  its  desti- 
nation ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  should  say  all  through  the  western  part  of  the  State 
of  Minnesota  and  the  northern  part  or  Dakota;  in  fact,  pretty  much 
the  State  of  Dakota. 

Commissioner  Lane.  When  the  coal  lines  in  British  Columbia  cut 
off  the  coal  supply  for  a  while? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  you  sent  the  coal  farther  out  west  to 
supply  that  deficiency? 

Mr.  Philbin.  For  a  time,  yes. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  was  during  August  and  September,  was  it 
not? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  rather  think  it  was  rather  later  than  that. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Later  than  August  and  September? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  so. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  was  sometime  in  the  month  of  September 
that  you  put  in  the  through  tariff  for  carrying  coal  out  there,  was  it 
not? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  am  not  famiUar  with  that  part  of  the  work.     I 
know  nothing  about  the  tariffs. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  would  be  your  judgment  as  to  the  time  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  My  recollection  is  that  sending  coal  to  points  farther 
west  than  usual  had  existed  in  September  and  October,  and  a  portion 
of  November.  I  do  not  think  it  was  before  September,  your  honor, 
but  I  may  be  wrong  about  that.  If  we  were,  it  was  to  such  a  hmited 
extent  that  we  did  not  feel  it  in  our  district. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  far  did  those  cars  go  westward  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  West  of  the  grain  fields? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes. 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  do  not  know.  I  have  nothing  to  do  with  those  dis- 
tricts, and  am  not  at  all  familiar  with  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Was  the  coal  supply  needed  as  far  as  Idaho  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  could  nwt  say. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  the  destination  of  the  cars  that 
left  Superior  bound  west  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  whether  an  amount  of  coal  was 
shipped  as  far  west  as  Idaho? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  not. 

Commissioner  Lane  (continuing).  In  order  to  make  up  that  defi- 
ciency ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  My  recollection  is  that  we  did  not  ship  any  coal  west 
of  Montana. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Did  you  ship  much  into  Montana? 


CAR  SHOBTAGE.  87 

Mr.  Philbin.  Well,  yes;  but  not  more  than  usual;  but  a  very  large 
quantity,  though. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Might  it  have  been  that  the  many  milUons  of 
bushels  of  grain  was  not  transported  because  you  had  carried  your 
cars  farther  west? 

Mr.  Philbin.  That  might  have  had  some  effect  on  it;  I  presume  it 
did  have  some  effect. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  that  strike  in  British  Columbia  now  over? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  believe  so.     I  am  not  famihar  with  that  situation. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  cars  have  you  had  standing  in 
your  yards,  on  the  average,  during  the  past  three  months? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Do  you  mean  how  many  cars  have  been  in  the  yard 
each  day,  in  the  coui"se  of  a  day's  business? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes. 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  should  say  from  1,200  to  1,600  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  you  consider  that  a  congested  state? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  how  many  are  there  now? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Well,  unless  the  movement  in  Dakota  has  been  better 
within  the  past  two  days,  we  have  not  over  2.000  care  there  to-day. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  worse  congested  now  than  you  have  been 
heretofore  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  the  snowstorm  in  Dakota  for  the  last  two  or 
three  days  almost  put  a  stop  to  freight  trains — you  mean  you  have 
not  sent  trains  out? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  mean  we  have  sent  them  out  as  far  as  Cass  Lake 
and  the  next  division  beyond — a  limited  number  of  them  from  Cass 
Lake  west,  but  not  a  full  number. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  has  banked  the  cars  up  in  the  Superior  and 
Duluth  yards  more  than  before? 

Mr.  Philbin.  The  yards  at  the  west  end  of  our  division  are  loaded 
up  with  cars  for  the  next  division  west,  and  the  fact  that  there  has 
been  a  heavier  west-bound  merchandise  business  within  the  last  two 
weeks,  because  it  is  the  last  end  of  the  lake  shipping  and  quite  a 
number  of  merchant  boats  are  received  at  just  the  tail  end  oi  navi- 
gation, making  necessary  quite  a  car  movement  west  bound.  A 
normal  condition  in  our  Superior  and  Duluth  yards  would  be  about 
1 ,000  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  does  the  larger  movement  west  bound  increase 
the  nuinhor  in  the  Superior  yard? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Because  they  are  loaded  in  the  Superior  yard. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  brought  them  in  empty? 

Mr.  Philbin.  We  brought  them  in  and  loaded  them  out  with 
merchandise. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  hold  them  to  load  them? 

Mr.  Philbin.  We  may  have  held  them  just  as  they  came  in  from 
day  to  day. 

Air.  Marble.  The  necessary  time? 

Mr.  Philbin.  That  is  about  all.  A  very  small  percentage  of  the 
cars  have  gone  west  empty  this  fall.  On  several  occasions  we  deemed 
it  wise  to  send  out  300  or  400  cars  in  order  to  relieve  the  conges- 
tion in  the  yard,  in  order  that  we  might  better  handle  the  cars  that 


88  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

remained  in  the  yard.  We  figured  that  the  coal  docks,  for  instance, 
did  not  lose  anything  by  the  move;  that  we  thereby  put  ourselves 
in  shape  to  give  them  what  cars  we  had  left  promptly,  and  handle 
them  properly.  The  coal  docks  really  did  not  lose  anything  by  the 
move,  and  those  occasions  have  been  few,  but  there  have  been  half  a 
dozen  such  occasions. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  there  been  more  movement  into  Superior  from 
the  west  than  hitherto? 

Mr.  Philbin.  No;  I  think  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  have  you  a  worse  congestion  now  than  you  had 
earlier  in  the  season?  You  have  got  more  freight  to  go  west.  You 
have  not  got  more  cars  in  and  yet  you  have  got  more  in  the  yards 
than  heretofore. 

Mr.  Philbin.  By  recently,  when  do  you  mean?  We  have  been 
pretty  well  blocked  up — well,  for  three  months. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  nave  about  1,200  cars? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Twelve  hundred  "to  1,500. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now  you  have  got  about  2,000? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  this  increase? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Because  of  this  snowstorm  in  Dakota. 

Mr.  Marble,  Did  not  that  block  traffic  both  ways? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  of  course;  we  can  not  get  anything  west  of 
Cass  Lake  from  Dakota  points.  We  have  hauled  empties  in  from 
west  of  the  lakes  to  the  Twin  Cities. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  that  explain  the  increase? 

Mr.  Philbin.  To  the  extent  of  200  or  300. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  received  more  cars  from  the  west  than 
you  have  loaded  out  since  the  snowstorm  commenced? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes;  we  have  received  more  from  the  West.  We 
speak  of  the  West.     We  call  the  Twin  Cities  West,  too. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  North — the  Northwest.  You  have  received  more 
than  you  have  shipped  out? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  reason? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Because  you  can  not  move  them  out.     To  make  it 

flainer,  I  think  we  had  m  Cass  Lake  on  Saturday  about  500  cars, 
t  will  not  hold  more  than  650  cars.  Now,  to  put  the  other  150  in 
there  would  have  been  a  bad  move,  because  it  would  have  so  con- 
gested that  yard,  because  when  they  had  any  moving  of  cars  to  do 
uiey  could  not  handle  them  properly.  So  that  when  the  snow 
blockade  was  lifted  and  we  got  to  moving  freight  trains  to  the 
West  they  would  find  the  tracks  just  conveniently  loaded  with  cars 
to  make  their  moves  properly. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many  cars  are  customarily  in  the  yard 
at  Cass  Lake? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  should  think  about  300  or  350. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  has  increased  the  number  there?  Why  do  not 
as  many  go  one  way  as  another,  or  why  do  not  as  many  go  out  as 
come  in? 

Mr.  Philbin.  The  necessity  for  big  outbound  shipment  of  coal  has 
increased  it,  and  the  fact  that  recently  in  order  to  save  the  box  cars 
for  commercial  loading — we  sent  coal  to  these  people  in  Dakota  who 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  89 

were  freezing  to  death,  if  you  please — we  have  loaded  1,500  ore  care 
with  company  coal  and  are  sending  them  West.  They  will  get  West, 
I  presume,  as  far  as  Minot  and  Devils  Lake,  and  they  will  have  to 
come  back  East  empty. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  coal  b  stored  in  company  care  on  your 
division  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  yesterday  we  must  have  had  in  the  neighbor- 
hood of  500  cars.  Over  400  of  them  being  ore  cars,  we  could  not 
carry  commercial  coal  nor  merchandise,  nor  anything  but  company 
coal  or  iron  ore. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  100  box  care? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Not  to  exceed  100  box  care  loaded  with  company 
coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  your  division? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  that  coal  in  transit,  or  was  it  waiting  to  be 
consumed  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  It  was  in  movement,  mostly. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many  care  was  there  at  the  place  of  con- 
suinption  and  waiting  to  be  taken  for  consumption  on  your  division? 

Mr.  Philbin.  This  company  coal — the  cars  that  I  speak  of — 99  per 
per  cent  of  them  hold  coal  that  would  be  consumed  at  points  west  of 
my  district,  and  I  do  not  know  how  many  care.  For  instance,  some 
care  were  consigned  to  Minot,  N.  Dak.  1  have  no  means  of  knowing 
how  many  care  they  had  there  yesterday.  I  simply  know  that  they 
had  a  certain  number  of  care. 

Mr.  ALarble.  Minot  is  the  place  of  reconsignment? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes;  where  billed  pretty  much  to  the  points  at 
which  they  are  consumed — Minot,  and  Devils  Lake,  and  Crookston, 
and  Dawson,  and  other  places. 

Mr.  !\Lv.RBLE.  To  make  it  plain,  can  you  tell  us  why  commercial 
coal  can  not  be  shipped  in  the  ore  care  as  well  as  comptnv  coal  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Iney  are  a  short  car,  25  feet  long  ana  very  high. 
About  as  high  as  box  care.  Now,  we  handle  our  coal  through  ele- 
vated trestles,  and  pull  these  care  up  on  to  the  elevated  trestles  and 
then  let  go  the  trapdoore,  and  the  coal  falls  out  of  the  bottoms  into 
the  locomotive  tanks.  The  commercial  people  have  not  got  any 
such  trestles. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  facilities  for  unloading  that  the  com- 
mercial people  have  not? 

Mr.  Philbin.  That  is  it;  and  we  could  not  afford  to  carry  com- 
mercial coal  in  those  care.  Those  care  must  come  back.  Some  of 
them  have  gone  as  far  as  six  or  seven  hundred  miles.  We  have  done 
that  to  give  our  customere — if  you  may  call  them  that — the  benefit 
of  all  the  box  care  that  are  available. 

Mr.  \LwRBLE.  Take  this  congestion — when  you  get  from  twelve  to 
fifteen  hundred  or  two  thousand  care  in  your  yard,  does  that  result  in 
l)urying  empties,  so  that  it  is  practically  impossible  to  get  them  out? 

Mr.  Philbin.  It  does  result  m  individual  cars  getting  so  buried,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  care  awaiting  repaire?  Is  there  some  delay 
of  that  kind? 

Mr.  Philbin,  Yes,  sir;  we  can  not  get  necessary  labor. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  b  rather  ordinarj'  labor  that  is  needed  to  make  the 
bulk  of  those  repaire? 


90  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes;  it  is  not  what  might  be  called  skilled  labor,  and 
yet  it  is  a  little  above  the  ordinary  labor. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  do  you  not  put  the  men  on? 

Mr.  Phelbin.  Because  they  do  not  exist. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  liable  to  have  to  stop  running  yoiu*  railroad  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  You  are  liable  to  have  to  curtail  the  business  of  the 
company.  I  do  not  tliink  there  is  any  doubt  about  that.  There  are 
not  enough  men  in  the  class  to  supply  the  demand  in  that  district. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  not  a  question  of  economy  in  the  payment  of 
wages  that  keeps  you  from  getting  men  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  wages  do  you  pay  for  car  repair  men? 

Mr.  Philbin.  They  will  average  about  $2.20  a  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  ten  hours'  work? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  the  ordinary  wages  paid  by  other  railroad 
systems  similarly  situated? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  so,  yes;  they  have  been  advanced  like  other 
classes  of  labor  within  the  last  three  months. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  jou  suppose  a  small  increase  in  wages  would  help 
to  ease  off  the  situation  and  prevent  this  situation  of  the  yards — this 
lack  of  cars?     Could  you  get  them  for  $2.50? 

Mr.  Philbin.  We  could  get  them  if  the  Northern  Pacific  would  pay 
$2.25  and  we  pay  $2.50,  we  would  get  all  the  men;  but  we  would  not 
get  more  men  on  the  two  roads.  There  is  an  honest  scarcity  of  men 
in  our  district.     There  are  not  enough  men  there  to  supply  the  demand. 

Mr.  Marbls.  Might  you  not  draw  some  from  other  districts  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  You  know  the  conditions  better  than  I  do.  I  speak 
only  of  our  own  district. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  were  in  control,  and  able  to  spend  more  money, 
could  you  better  the  service  of  your  road  in  your  district,  by  not 
being  so  economical  ?     I  ask  you  to  speak  as  an  expert  railroad  man  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Well,  I  am  conceited  enough  to  think  that  in  some 
few  things — some  few  changes  I  would  make  might  work  out  to 
advantage,  but  on  the  whole  I  think  not,  because  we  have  up  there, 
myself  and  other  officers — we  might  have  been  authorized  to  spend 
an  almost  unlimited  amount  of  money  to  make  better  tkis  condition 
this  year  and  could  not  get  the  laoor  nor  the  materials  to  work 
with.  For  instance,  we  were  authorized  to  expand  in  a  very  consider- 
able way  our  Superior  yard,  in  which  this  grain  is  handled,  and  we 
could  not  do  it,  we  had  the  money — we  had  no  doubt  they  would 
have  paid  the  bills — we  could  not  get  the  labor  to  do  it,  could  not 
get  the  ties,  could  not  get  the  rails  to  do  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  think  it  is  economy  in  paying  wages  that 
keeps  you  from  getting  men  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  You  can  judge  best  by  my  saying  we  paid  our  dock 
laborers  $2.80  cents  a  day  and  were  short  50  per  Cent  every  day  in 
the  month. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  is  that? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Because  the  men  do  not  exist. 

Mr.  Marble.  Were  the  men  laying  off  because  it  was  very  cold? 

Mr.  Philbin.  No,  it  was  cold,  but  not  any  colder  than  usual. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  short  any  other  classes  of  labor? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  91 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Enginemen? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  are  other  industrios  off  for  men? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  am  afraid  they  are  about  in  the  same  fix. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  ought  to  reduce  the  tonnage. 

Mr.  Philbin.  It  has  reduced  the  tonnage  to  some  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  say  the  lack  of  labor  is  responsible  for  the 
delay  in  transportation  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  these  empties  that  you  sent  west — do  you 
know  where  they  went  to  for  distribution  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Not  after  they  went  to  Sandstone  and  Cass  Lake. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  know  whetlier  they  were  distributed  to 
competitive  points  rather  than  noncompetitive  points? 

Mr.  Philbin.  We  do  not  pay  any  attention  to  tliat. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  your  observation — that  the  enginemen  work 
too  long  hours  to  be  thoroughly  efficient? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Well,  enginemen  are  Hke  others — they  are  incKned 
to  be  selfish  and  make  all  the  miles  they  can,  which  means  all  the 
money  that  they  can  earn — and  I  have  known  cases  where  it  was 
necessary  to  watch  men  to  keep  them  from  trying  to  make  too  many 
miles;  that  is,  to  keep  them  from  trying  to  make  too  much  mone^ 
in  the  month.  They  would  be  inclined  to  overwork  themselves  if 
they  were  not  watched  and  compelled  to  take  rest.  There  are  cases 
where  trains  meet  with  unusual  delays,  many  cases  of  that  kind, 
where  men  are  longer  on  the  road  than  thev  should  be,  but  we  aim 
to  watch  it  as  closely  as  we  can  and  to  avoid  letting  a  man  work  at 
any  time  longer,  ordinarily,  than  about  seventeen  consecutive  hours 
under  any  circumstances,  and  to  try  to  make  liis  day's  work  about 
fourteen  hours.  We  do  not  always  succeed,  but  I  think  we  do  in 
most  cases. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  in  the  last  ten  years  disciplined  any  men 
for  demanding  less  time? 

Mr.  Philbin.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  compelled  men  to  take  rest  who  would 
not  otherw'ise  have  done  so  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  we  have;  yes,  sir. 

Commi.ssioner  Lane.  You  heard  the  statement  that  was  made  by 
Mr.  Blanchard  in  regard  to  the  policy  of  the  Northern  Pacific,  touch- 
ing the  question  of  coal  shortages  in  North  Dakota.  Are  you  in  a 
f)osition  to  make  the  same  kind  of  a  promise  as  to  the  quick  hand- 
ing of  coal  direct  to  those  points? 

Mr.  Philbin.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  the  most  positive  instruction  from 
my  general  office  to  leave  no  stone  unturned  to  hurry  commercial 
coal  to  the  Dakotas,  with  preference  over  all  other  classes  of  freigiit, 
and  to  limit  the  tonnage  of  trains,  so  that  they  can  move  as  promptly 
as  possible,  and,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  during  the  last  ten  days,  as  per- 
haps you  know,  certain  ratings  for  certain  engines — they  have  not 
been  given  70  per  cent  of  such  ratings  for  the  last  three  weeks. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  makes  some  difference  as  to  the  rapidity 
with  which  a  train  moves,  then — the  amount  of  freight  it  hauls? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  so. 


92  CAR   SHOBTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  Commission  has  sent  out  from  here  this 
morning  an  invitation  to  several  points  of  which  we  have  heard  and 
where  there  was  supposed  to  be  a  sliorta^e  in  coal.  We  desired  to 
have  the  situation  relieved  as  soon  as  possible,  of  course,  and  we  have 
received  these  two  telegrams,  one  from  Ojata,  N.  Dak.  Is  that  on 
your  line  ? 

Mr.  Philbin.  I  think  it  is.  It  is  beyond  my  district,  but  I  think  it 
is  on  our  line. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  reads  as  follows: 

Ten  tons  of  hard  coal  on  hand.  No  railway  coal  in  store  or  on  track.  There  is  some 
suffering  at  present.    Getting  worse  every  day. 

L.  W.  SORNHEIM. 

We  have  addressed  these  telegrams  to  the  mayor  or  some  prominent 
citizen  of  the  respective  towns. 

We  also  communicated  with  Finley.  That  is  on  your  road,  the 
Great  Northern,  too,  and  this  Milton,  I  think  that  is  a  point  on  your 
line.  Now,  can  you  let  these  people  there  know  that  they  can  get 
coal  and  have  it  sent  to  them  immediately? 

Mr.  PiiiLBiN.  Why,  of  course,  we  do  not  own  the  coal;  we  are  like 
the  Northern  Pacific  in  that  respect. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  understand  it,  these  steamers  have  unloaded 
coal  at  Superior  and  Duluth  which  has  not  been  sent  off.  I  am  not 
asking  you  to  supply  the  coal  at  all. 

Mr.  Philbin.  If  the  shipper  in  Duluth  or  Superior  will  load  the  coal 
for  that  point,  and  give  the  number  of  the  car  that  he  has  so  loaded, 
we  would  give  it  special  preference,  and  hurry  that  car. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  will  telegraph  Mr.  Sornheim  this  afternoon 
to  that  effect,  that  if  there  is  coal  ordered  in  Duluth  or  Superior  for 
that  town,  if  they  wUl  send  you  the  numbers  of  the  car,  and  that  you 
wiU  also  furnish  the  car,  that  you  will  see  that  it  is  immediately  sent 
to  them,  and  that  you  wiQ  do  that  as  to  all  points  in  North  Dakota, 
or  to  all  points  throughout  the  Northwest  where  there  is  suffering  or 
immediate  necessity  for  coal. 

Mr.  Philbin.  That  has  been  my  instructions. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  have  it  published  in  the  newspapers? 

Mr.  Philbin.  And  that  I  hope  will  get  as  wide  circulation  as  possi- 
ble and  the  orders  placed  in  Duluth  or  Superior  for  coal;  cars  will  be 
available  for  transportation  of  that  coal,  if  there  is  necessity  for  coal 
in  the  western  points,  and  that  coal  will  be  transported  as  speedily  as 
possible. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  Finley  on  your  line? 

Mr.  Stillborn.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  postmaster  at  Finley  reports  there  is  no 
coal  in  store  and  there  is  no  railway  coal,  but  there  has  been  no  suf- 
fering as  yet.     I  shall  telegraph  him  also  to  the  same  effect. 

The  Commission  will  now  adjourn  until  10  o'clock  to-morrow 
morning. 

(Thereupon,  at  5  o'clock  p.  m.,  the  Commission  adjourned.) 


car  shortage.  93 

United  States  Court-Room, 
Minneapolis,  Minn.,  December  18,  1906,  10  o'clock  a.  in. 
Commissioner  Lane.  Before  you  call  the  first  witness  I  wish  to 
read  some  tele«;ranis  which  have  been  received  in  answer  to  inquiries 
that  have  been  sent  out  by  the  Commission  to  points  in  North  Dakota 
relative  to  the  coal  famine.  Here  is  one  from  the  postmaster  at 
Carpio,  N.  Dak.: 

No  coal  in  store  to-day.  All  Hupplios  of  coal  in  town  will  be  out  in  three  to  five  days. 
No  railroad  coal  in  store  or  cars.  Immediate  suffering  for  fuel  in  town  and  country 
expected  at  once.  Two  coal  cars  from  Duluth  for  Bovey  Shute  I.unilx'r  Company, 
Carpio,  N.  Dak.,  been  in  transit  for  one  month.     Not  yet  arrived.     Need  coal  at  once. 

New  Rockford,  N.  Dak. : 
No  coal  in  town.     Everj'body  clamoring  for  fuel;  situation  serious. 

Maddock,  N.  Dak.: 

Have  no  coal  in  store  here  to-day  except  5  tons  of  railway  coal,  and  we  are  b^inning 
to  suffer  for  fuel  now. 

Courtenay,  N.  Dak.: 

One  hundred  and  seventy-five  tons  of  coal  stored  in  cars  and  coal  sheds.  No  raiJ- 
road  coal.     Will  last  about  a  week.    No  suffering  for  want  of  fuel. 

Glenburn,  N.  Dak.: 

No  coal  in  store  here.  None  on  track.  Only  limited  supply  with  consumers.  Many 
farmers  entirely  out.    Supply  in  town  sufficient  for  week  or  ten  days. 

Westhope,  N.  Dak.: 

About  30  tons  soft  coal  here;  will  last  about  ten  days;  no  railrtMid  coal  stored;  none 
stored  in  cars;  we  have  sufficient  for  the  present;  80  tons  arrived  this  p.  m. 

Anita,  N.  Dak.: 

No  coal  in  store;  none  in  cars;  combined  dealers  report  they  could  have  sold  30  cars 
in  pa«t  two  weeks  so  great  is  demand.  No  caaes  of  suffering  known  of,  but  situation 
alarming  if  this  continues.     No  railroad  coal. 

Barlow,  N.  Dak.: 

Three  tons  soft.  50  tons  hard  coal  in  dealers'  hands  here.  No  railroad  coal.  Can 
get  along  without  suffering  in  this  vicinity  for  ten  days. 

Rugby,  N.  Dak.: 

No  coal  in  storage.  About  100  tons  in  railway  sheds.  None  in  cars.  There  is  suf- 
fering for  fuel  in  country. 

Galesburg,  N.  Dak. : 

No  fuel  in  store  in  this  town,  either  coal  or  wood.  Some  people  are  biuning  lumber 
for  fuel.    Will  be  great  distress  in  a  week. 

Hannaford,  N.  Dak. : 

Forty  tons  hard  coal;  no  railroad  coal;  none  stored  in  cars.    Nobody  suffering. 

Knox,  N.  Dak.: 

No  coal  at  all  here,  except  what  is  in  the  hands  of  the  consumeis;  will  be  suffering 
if  don 't  get  coal  soon. 

Sherwood,  N.  Dak.: 

Absolutely  no  fuel;  none  stored;  carload  of  railroad  company's  coal  distributed  yes- 
terday; no  more  on  hand;  much  suffering  antiripat«'d;  suffering  reported  among 
farmers  now;  are  burning  straw  and,  in  cases,  buildings.  Schools  clotHxl;  poet-office 
using  blacksmith  coal. 


94  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Dazey,  N.  Dak.: 

Not  a  pound  of  any  kind  of  coal  in  Dazey;  a  very  little  wood.  There  is  suffering 
now  both  in  town  and  country.  Farmers  in  every  day  looking  for  coal,  and  if  situation 
ie  not  changed  at  very  early  date  greater  suffering  must  ensue. 

Mohall,  N.  Dak.: 

Absolutely  no  coal  on  hand  or  in  store;  conditions  serious;  rural  community  suffer- 
ing; must  have  relief  at  once. 

W.  J.  CosTELLO,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified 
as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  name  ? 

Mr.  Costello.  W.  J.  Costello. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  here  in  Minneapolis? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  MA.RBLE.  And  what  is  your  business? 

Mr.  Costello.  I  am  assistant  freight  agent  for  the  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  Assistant  freight  agent  ? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  are  your  duties  as  such  assistant  freight 
agent,  generally? 

Mr.  Costello.  We  have  an  office  on  the  ea^t  side,  and  I  have 
charge  of  that.  We  handle  all  the  freight  business,  excepting  to  take 
care  of  the  accounts. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  keep  records  showing  the  stations  from  which 
cars  come  to  this  city,  date  of  theii-  shipment,  and  the  car  numbers, 
the  date  received  here,  the  date  disposition  is  given  to  you,  and  the 
contents  of  the  car,  do  you? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  these  sheets  which  you  have  handed  me,  are 
they  true  copies  of  j^our  records  for  the  time  covered  by  the  sheets  ? 

Iklr.  Costello.  They  are  exact  copies;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  those  are  copies  made  for  the  purpose  of  this 
investigation  ? 

Mr.  Costello.  No ;  they  are  copies  of  a  report  that  we  make  every 
day.     We  just  keep  that  carbon  on  file. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  this  is  a  carbon  copy  of  the  report — these  are 
carbon  copies  of  the  reports  that  were  made  to  other  departments  of 
the  railroad,  showing  this  inf onnation  ? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  those  reports  correct? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  May  we  keep  these  copies  for  reference  and  exam- 
ination? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  no  objection,  as  far  as  I  am 
concerned. 

Mr.  Marble.  Their  detention  will  not  hamper  the  raihoad  work 
any? 

Mr.  Costello.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  examine  you  just  enough  to  get  the  full  mean- 
ing of  these  records.     This  station  here 

Mr.  Costello.  That  is  Pelican  Rapids. 

Mr.  Marble.  Pelican  Rapids  is  a  station  from  which  that  car  was 
shipped  ? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  95 

Mr.  Marble.  And  when  was  the  date  of  the  waybill — can  you  tell 
when  that  car  originated? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  The  month  here  is  somewliat  blurred. 

Mr.  Marble.  \Vliat  is  the  day  of  the  month? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  The  16th. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  when  was  that  car  received? 

Mr.  Costello.  It  was  received  here  on  the  15th. 

Mr.  Marble.  Of  what  month? 

Mr.  Costello.  December. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  must  have  originated  in  some  other  month  than 
December? 

Mr.  Costello.  It  must  have,  unless  the  date  on  the  waybill  is 
incorrect. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those  waybills  are  generally  correct,  are  they  not? 

Mr.  Costello.  Sometimes  they  put  the  12th  for  the  11th,  or  some- 
thing like  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  was  in  that  car? 

Mr.  Costello.  Wheat. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  can  you  tell  the  origin  of  the  next  carl 

Mr  Costello.  That  would  be  the  12th. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  12th  6f  what? 

Mr.  Costello.  December. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  sure  that  is  December? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  do  you  tell? 

Mr.  Costello.  He  changes  the  date — every  time  the  date  changes 
he  changes  the  month. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  does  it  say  the  12th  there? 

Mr.  Costello.  Right  there  [indicating].  I  would  call  that  the 
12th. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  a  ditto  mark  under  the  month  above? 

Mr.  Costello.  I  would  call  that  12. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then,  if  it  originated  on  the  12th  of  December  and 
it  arrived  here  on  the  15th,  it  came  in  tliree  daj'^s  from  PeUcan  ftapids? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  other  one  appears  to  have  been  a  month  on 
the  wav.     Take  this  car  [indicating].     W^hen  did  that  originate? 

Mr.  Costello.  On  the  10th. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  10th  of  what? 

Mr.  Costello.  December. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  do  you  tell  that  it  is  December? 

Mr.  Costello.  Because  it  is  the  12th  month  there. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  assuming  that  it  is  December  up  above? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  are  some  that  certainly  originated  in  Decem- 
ber, did  they  not  ? 

Mr.  Costello.  That  is  the  12th. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  12th  month  and  7th  day? 

Mr.  Costello.  At  Hufton. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  arrived  here  on  the  15th? 

Mr.  Costello.  On  the  15th. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  that  car.     Where  did  that  originate  [indicating]  ? 

Mr.  Costello.  That  originated  at  Crary. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  when  did  that  originate  [indicating]? 


96  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  November  28. 

Mr.  Marble,  When  did  it  arrive? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  December  15. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  the  next  car.     When  did  that  originate! 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  At  Penn,  N.  Dak.,  November  29. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  did  it  arrive? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  December  15. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  the  next  one. 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  That  originated  at  Millard. 

Mr.  Marble.  When? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  The  12th. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  did  it  arrive? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  On  the  loth  of  December. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  15th — it  was  out  three  days? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  the  next  one. 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  That  originated  at  South  Omaha,  December  4. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  from  the  south? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  From  what  records  are  these  sheets  made  up? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  Made  from  the  waybills. 

Mr.  Marble.  By  you? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  By  a  clerk. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  clerk  under  your  direction? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  have  you  found  them  generally  correct? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  Generally  correct;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  To  make  sure  again  that  we  can  read  that  properly  m 
examining  it,  I  will  try  you  with  this  one  which  originated  at  Alberta. 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  the  11th  of  November? 

;Mr.  Costello.  The  11th  of  December.  That  is  the  waybill  num- 
ber thgre. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  do  you  tell  that  it  originated  in  December? 

Mr.  Costello.  If  there  is  any  other  month  there  than  the  month 
they  are  working  in  they  put  the  month  up  there  [indicating]. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  origmated  on  the  11th  of  December? 

Mr.  Costello.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  arrived  in  MinneapoUs  on  the  14th  of  Decem- 
ber? 

Mr.  Costello.  It  arrived  on  the  13th. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  arrived  on  the  13th? 

Mr.  Costello.  He  has  made  a  mistake  there.  That  should  be 
December. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  do  you  know  that  is  a  mistake? 

Mr.  Costello.  Because  the  dispositions  are  given  on  the  14th. 
That  is  the  date — ttie  14th,  here. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  that  that  did  not  stand  around  in  the 
yards  all  that  time  waiting  for  disposition? 

Mr.  Costello.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Possibly  demurrage  was  paid  on  the  car? 

Mr.  Costello.  Those  are  just  put  on  the  day  they  come  in. 

Mr,  Marble.  There  may  be  some  mistakes  in  those,  then? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  97 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  There  might  be  a  mistake  in  the  date  of  the  way- 
bill, or  the  waybill  number,  of  course,  a  clerical  error. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  month  appears  on  only  a  portion  of  them. 
Why  does  not  the  month  of  origin  appear  on  all? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  That  i«  .the  way  they  make  the  statement  up. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  do  iti^y  put  it  on  some  and  not  on  others  ? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  That  is  the  way  the  clerk  has  of  making  it  up. 

Mr.  Marble.  He  does  it  either  way,  as  he  chooses  ? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  The  general  way  tney  do  it  is  to  change  it  for  a 
different  month  from  the  month  that  he  is  using.  They  note  the 
month  then. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  do  they  put  the  month  in  on  the  date  of  arrival? 
Why  don't  they  show  the  date  on  which  it  was  shipped? 

Air.  CosTELLO.  Well,  we  could  do  it.     It  never  occurred  to  me. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  is  the  date  or  month  of  origin  left  out  of  these 
sheets? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  The  only  reason  I  know  of  that  the  month  is  left 
off  is  because  it  is  the  current  month  in  which  they  are  working. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  they  could  leave  off  the  date  of  arrival  here.  It 
is  only  the  date  of  origin  that  is  left  off. 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Which  makes  it  impossible  to  tell  how  long  the  cars 
are  on  the  road  from  these  sheets. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Marble,  let  me  see  one  of  those  sheets, 
please. 

(Mr.  Marble  hands  paper  to  Commissioner  Harlan.) 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  that  is  the  usual  way  of  making  out  these, 
leaving  off  the  month  of  origin  and  putting  on  in  particular  cases  the 
date  and  the  month? 

Mr.  CosTELLO.  That  is  the  way  they  have  been  making  it  up. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  why  tne  month  is  left  off  in  one  case 
and  not  in  the  other? 

Mr.  Costello.  It  is  just  simply  the  manner  the  clerk  has  of  doing  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  the  clerk  do  this  because  he  chooses  or  does  he 
have  orders? 

.   Mr.  Costello.  He  has  orders,  generally,  as  to  the  way  to  do  his 
work. 

Mr.  Marble.  Who  told  him  to  make  them  out  in  this  way  ? 

Mr.  Costello.  I  do  not  know  as  anybody  did. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  were  these  sheets  written? 

Mr.  Costello.  Written  the  same  day  the  car  comes  in. 

Mr.  Marble.  Were  they  written  since  this  investigation  began? 

Mr.  Costello.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  have  to  ask  you  to  bring  to  us  to-morrow 
morning  other  sheets  which  will  be  fully  filled  out,  covering — start 
the  1st  of  November  and  fill  out  that  month  of  the  origin. 

Mr.  Costello.  Well,  we  have  another  sheet  that  we  call — another 
record.     I  think  that  probably  has  all  the  months  on  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  wish  you  would  bring  that  in. 

Mr.  Costello.  That  is  what  I  will  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  what  we  want — to  have  the  months. 

Mr.  Costello.  I  will  do  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  All  right,  sir;  that  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 
S,  Doc.  333,  59-2 7 


98  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

M.  S.  Blair,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified  as 
follows: 

Mr.  Marble,  Mr.  Blair,  you  reside  at  Ojata,  N.  Dak.  ? 

Mr.  Blair    Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  a  farmer  at  that  poifit? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  you  been  a  farmer  in  North  Dakota? 

Mr.  Blair.  Twenty-seven  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  interested  in  grain  buying  also  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  what  capacity? 

Mr.  Blair.  Well,  last  year  I  was  interested  in  ^ain  buying  in  the 
capacity  of  manager  and  secretary  of  the  Minnesota  Farmers' 
Exchange. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  was  stated  before  that  they  owned  farmers' 
elevators  and  owned  stock  in  elevators.     Is  that  right? 

Mr.  Blair.  That  is,  they  have  elevators  of  their  own,  and  there  is 
also  farmers'  elevators  that  own  stock  of  theirs. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  in  touch  with  the  elevator  situation  in  North 
Dakota — the  farmers'  elevator  situation? 

Mr.  Blair.  Somewhat. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  are  you  familiar  with  the  present  conditions 
and  the  conditions  during  this  crop  year  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  In  some  localities. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  ask  you  what  the  effect  on  prices  in  North 
Dakota  of  this  failure  of  transportation  facilities  has  been  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  It  has  had  the  effect  of  widening  the  margins — that  is, 
between  the  terminal  point  and  the  local  point. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  it  has  had  the  effect  of  lowering  the  price  to 
you  compared  with  the  price  at  the  terminal  market  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Who  suffered  from  that? 

Mr.  Blair.  The  producer. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  producer  of  grain? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  did  it  have  that  effect? 

Mr.  Blair.  The  effect  from  the  elevators,  claiming  that  they  could 
not  buy  this  grain  on  as  close  margin,  for  the  simple  reason  that  they 
could  not  deliver  it  in  time  so  as  to  save  the  excess  charges  or  expense 
they  were  put  to  by  the  detention  of  grain  laying  in  their  elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  they  reduced  the  prices  they  paid? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  it  have  any  effect  on  the  competition  at  any 
points  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  It  practically  cut  off  the  competition. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  farmers'  elevator  started  for,  generally? 

Mr.  Blair.  That  is  to  make  competition  in  trade;  that  is,  in  the 
buying  of  grain. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  started  to  make  competition? 

Mr.  Blair.  In  order  to  make  competition. 

Mr.  Marble.  To  make  a  fight  in  tne  market? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And,  now,  how  does  car  shortage  affect  that  fight? 

Mr.  Blair.  The  farmers'  elevators  get  full  first. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  99 

Mr.  Marble.  As  a  general  rule? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir;  and  they  of  course  could  handle  more  grain 
if  they  had  shipping  facilities,  and  if  they  could  ship  it  off  as  fast  as 
they  received  it,  they  could  do  it  with  the  same  amount  of  help  at  a 
less  expense  than  they  q^ijx  where  thev  are  not  able  to  handle  the 
grain  as  fast  as  ordinary  capacity  would  allow. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  they  get  full  they  go  out  of  the  market? 

Mr.  Blair.  They  do  not  go  out  of  the  market,  but  they  simply 
have  to  close  up  tlieir  house  until  such  time  as  they  are  relieved  by 
obtaining  cars  and  getting  a  chance  to  buy  some  more  grain. 

Mr.  Marble.  iVnd  when  they  are  buying  they  also  take  a  wider 
margin  than  if  they  have  cars? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir.  Our  experience  last  year  and  a  year  ago  has 
shown  that  the  people  take  a  larger  margin,  and  must  in  order  to 
carry  the  house  tnrough  without  a  loss. 

^Ir.  Marble.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  these  elevators,  starting  and 
inducing  competition,  as  you  say,  are  suffering  more  than  the  line 
elevators? 

Mr.  Blair.  Well,  I  could  not  say.  I  am  not  in  a  position  to  know 
what  the  line  elevators  are  suffering.  I  know  our  expense  is  a  great 
'loal  greater.  That  is  the  statement  of  each  and  every  fanners  ele- 
vator I  have  visited  this  last  season,  which  has  been  in  the  neighbor- 
hood of  fifty  or  sixty. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  likely  to  put  any  of  these  independent  dealers 
out  of  business;  put  them  into  oankruptcy ? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  do  not  think  it  is  liable  to  put  any  of  them  out  of 
business,  but  it  is  going  to  make  it  a  pretty  hard  proposition  for 
them.  Of  course  the  farmers  will  still  retain  their  competition  as 
far  as  they  can,  even  though  there  is  a  still  greater  expense  than  at 
the  present  time. 

M^r.  Marble.  It  is  the  opmion  of  the  farmers  pretty  generally,  is 
it  not,  that  this  car  shortage  situation  was  brought  about  by  the 
railways  in  order  to  produce  just  this  result  of  ending  competition? 

Mr.  Blair.  That  is  their  idea. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  know  of  any  evidence  to  back  up  that 
opinion,  do  you? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  experience  in  trying  to  get  sites  from  the 
Tireat  Northern,  have  you  not? 

Mr.  Blair.  A  vear  or  so  ago  I  did. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  did  they  tell  you? 

Mr.  Blair.  There  were  two  or  three  points  I  made  application  for. 
They  would  not  give  any  encouragement  at  first,  tninking  that 
t  here  were  a  sufficient  amount  of  elevators  at  that  point  to  take  care 
of  the  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  the  Great  Northern  people  tell  you  that  there 
were  enough  elevators  at  the  points  to  take  care  of  the  business? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir;  in  their  judgment. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  they  did  not  want  any  more? 

Mr.  Blair.  They  did  not  think  it  was  necessary. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  had  four  such  cases  last  summer? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  got  your  sites  yet  in  all  of  these  cases? 

^Ir.  Blaib.  No,  sir. 


100  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  they  try  to  persuade  you  to  buy  old-line  eleva- 
tors. 

Mr.  Blair.  They  encouraged  the  purchase  of  them,  if  possible. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  is  somewhat  aside,  but  it  is  interesting  in  view 
of  some  evidence  of  the  Great  Northern  whie|t  we  took  in  the  elevator 
inquiry,  which  evidence  was  directly  to  the  contrary  of  the  statements 
which  the  witness  makes.  Have  you  engaged  in  the  coal  business 
at  all? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  tried  to  buy  coal  for  the  farmers'  elevators? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  from  whom  did  you  try  to  buy  coal? 

Mr.  Blair.  From  parties  here  in  Minneapolis. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  vou  tell  us  what  parties? 

Mr.  Blair.  The  Adams  Coal  Company,  the  Sullivan  Coal  Company, 
and  I  have  talked  with  a  party — the  Pioneer  Coal  Company. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  did  they  tell  you? 

Mr.  Blair.  They  said  that  as  long  as  we  were  not  dealers  there  that 
they  could  not  possibly  accommodate  us. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  they  tell  you  to  go  and  see  anybody? 

Mr.  Blair.  The  Adams  Coal  Coinpany  directed  me  to  the  secretary 
of  the  Coal  Dealers'  Association.  I  have  forgotten  what  the  gentle- 
man's name  is. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  did  he  tell  you? 

Mr.  Blair.  He  told  me  that  they  would  like  very  well  to — advised 
me  to  make  application  and  to  become  a  member  of  their  association, 
and  to  comply  with  the  rules  and  regulations  of  their  association, 
before  they  could  really  list  us  as  members  and  place  us  in  a  position 
to  buy  coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  any  of  those  rules  have  to  do  with  sustaining 
prices  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir.  The  understanding  is  that  they  were  to  sus- 
tain prices  at  any  point  where  they  would  permit  us  to  go  in  and 
conduct  a  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  buy  coal  last  year? 

Mr.  Blair.  Not  from  any  of  these  dealers. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  could  not  buy  it? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  could  not  buy  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  bought  some  coal? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  did  you  buy  that? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  bought  mine  at  Cleveland,  Ohio. 

Mr.  Marble.  Cleveland,  Ohio.     And  how  did  you  ship? 

Mr.  Blair.  All  rail. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  have  a  through  rate? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  was  made  up  of  the  sums  of  the  locals? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  bought  some  elsewhere,  too,  did  you  not? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  bought  one  load  at  Manistee,  Mich. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  how  did  you  ship  that — by  rail? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  have  a  through  rate? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir. 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  101 

Mr.  Marble.  It  paid  the  sum  of  the  locals? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  considered  it  advantageous  to  buy  that 
coal? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  did  vou  buy  it? 

Mr.  Blair.  Wliy  did  I  buy  it? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Blair.  There  was  nothing;  I  could  not  buy  it  and  lay  it  down 
as  cheap  hardly  as  it  could  be  bought  at  the  head  of  the  Lakes  and  be 
laid  down,  but  I  was  determined  to  have  my  own  coal,  and  the  coal 
came,  as  it  was  quite  a  little  cheaper  than  the  retail  price  which  other 
people  had  to  pay,  but  not  as  cheap  as  the  wholesale  price. 

Mr.  Marble.  5^ot  as  cheap  as  the  wholesale  price? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  been  shipping  wheat  for  a  number  of  years, 
have  you  ? 

Mr.*  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  about  the  time  of  cars  in  transit? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  point  is  Grand  Forks? 

Mr.  Blair.  Twelve  miles  west  of  Grand  Forks. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  ask  you  if  cars  take  longer  in  transit  now  than 
they  did  in  previous  years  f 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  my  experience. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  your  cars  taken  on  the  average  this 
crop  year? 

Mr.  Blair.  This  crop  year  they  have  taken  from  one  to  three 
weeks. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  previously  what  has  been  the  time  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  have  nad  cai*s  get  in  inside  of  three  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  got  any  cars  in  inside  of  three  days  this 
year  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Any  less  than  a  week? 

Mr.  Blair.  No;  I  do  not  think  there  are  any  less  than  a  week. 

Mr.  Marble.  Previously  what  has  been  the  average  time? 

Mr.  Blair.  Three  days  or  thereabouts  for  wheat  up  to  last  fall. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  WTiat  is  the  distance? 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  distance  from  Grand  Forks  to  Duluth? 

Mr.  Blair.  Two  hundred  and  ninety- three  miles,  I  think,  by 
schedule. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  12  miles  farther? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  same  railroad  carries  this  grain  this  year  that 
carried  it  in  previous  years? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  vou  know  why  they  take  longer  this  year? 

Mr.  Blair.  Not  absolutely.     I  have  my  idea. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  railroad  men  informed  you? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  had  some  trouble  trying  to  get  wheat  into  Duluth 
« )n  November  contracts  this  year,  did  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 


102  CAH  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  before  the  1st  of  December  did  you  start 
that  wheat? 

Mr.  Blair.  It  had  from  thirteen  to  fifteen  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  it  arrive  in  time? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir;  most  of  it  did  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  did  it  arrive? 

Mr.  Blair.  About  a  week  later. 

Mr.  Marble,  ^'ou  had  thirteen  days  for  it  to  get  into  Duluth,  and 
it  arrived  a  week  later? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  effect  did  that  have  upon  your  business? 

Mr.  Blair.  It  had  the  effect  upon  our  customers  that  when  they 
had  wheat  sold  to  arrive  to  be  delivered  in  November  that  they  had 
to  buy  it  in  in  order  to  fulfill  their  contracts.  They  had  sold  the 
wheat  to  arrive,  and  of  course  the  month  was  up  the  last  day  of  No- 
vember, and  if  they  could  not  furnish  it  at  that  time  they  had  to  buy 
it  in  for  a  greater  price  than  what  they  would  have  had  to  give  for  it 
if  it  had  come  in  in  time.  Other  wheat  would  be  worth  6  cents  after 
the  1st  of  December  more  than  it  would  be  before — from  3  to  6  cents, 
according  to  the  arrangements  they  could  make  with  tlie  parties  in 
order  to  make  settlement. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  would  lose  several  cents  a  bushel  by  failure  to 
arrive? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  where  the  major  portion  of  the  delay 
took  place,  whether  it  was  before  reaching  Duluth  or  after? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  understand  part  of  it  was  before  and  part  of  it  after 
getting  into  the  yards  at  Duluth. 

Mr,  Marble.  You  have  some  experience  trying  to  get  cars  from  the 
dispatcher  at  Grand  Forks? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  had  that  this  season? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  he  give  you  the  cars? 

Mr.  Blair.  For  local  shipments  for  local  points,  at  Ojata,  but  I 
tried  to  get  cars  farther  west  for  farmers'  elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  get  them? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir;  not  as  readily  as  we  should  have  got  thein. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  he  make  an  explanation  to  you  as  to  why  that 
was  so? 

Mr.  Blair.  Well,  in  one  particular  case,  where  he  said  they  had  a 
great  many  calls  for  cars  within  a  radius  of  a  hundred  miles  of  Grand 
Forks.  A  great  many  elevators  were  tied  up  and  they  had  standing 
orders  to  ship  west  a  certain  number  of  cars  each  day,  which  had  to 
go  to  the  extreme  Western  States — the  western  part  of  our  State  and 
States  west  of  us. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  how  many  cars  there  were  shipped  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  He  stated  the  orders  covered  from  75  to  125  cars  a  day. 

Mr,  Marble.  Did  you  understand  they  were  going  to  the  Pacific 
coast? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  inferred  from  what  he  said  that  they  were  going  out 
into  Washington  country, 

Mr.  Marble.  He  did  not  state  that  exactly? 

Mr.  Blair.  He  did  not  state  that  exactly,  but  I  inferred  that. 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  103 

Mr.  Marble.  Tell  us  about  the  cattle  train  you  brought  down. 
You  brought  down  a  cattle  train,  did  you  not? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  came  down  with  a  couple  of  loads  of  cattle  on  or  about 
the  10th  of  November  from  Finley,  N.  Dak. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  were  there  in  that  train  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  Until  we  got  to  Casselton,  there  were  very  few,  but  after 
we  got  to  Casselton  we  waited  an  hour  for  a  cattle  train,  and,  when  we 
were  coming  down  the  line,  I  noticed  an  exceedingly  long  train  and  I 
asked  the  conductor  how  many  cars  he  had  on,  and  he  said  68. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  have  any  accidents  that  trip? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir;  from  the  time  we  left  Larimore  until  we  got 
into  Minneapolis  we  pulled  out  three  drawheads. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  why  they  pulled  out? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  have  my  idea. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  the  train  men  explain  it  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  was  very  evident  that  it  was  the  weight  of  the 
train? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  yet  that  train  made  good  time? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir;  good — extraordinary  good  time;  that  is,  of 
course  cattle  trains  have  the  right  of  way  wherever  it  is  possible  to 
u'ive  it  to  them.  They  have  the  right  of  way  over  other  trains — reg- 
ular cattle  trains. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  made  better  time  than  your  wheat  made  coming 
to  Duluth,  then,  even  with  these  accidents? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  know  what  mishaps  your  wheat  met  with  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  local  trains  between  Crookston  and  Lari- 
more been  nmning  regularly  recently? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  have  had  no  occasion  to  keep  track  of  them,  excepting 
a  week  ago  yesterday,  when  I  left  home,  I  made  an  inquiry  there  as  to 
what  was  the  matter  with  the  local  trains.  We  had  not  had  any 
local  trains  there  for  some  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  you  had  not  had  any  local  trains  for  how 
long? 

Mr.  Blair.  A  number  of  days;  I  do  not  know  how  long.  I  did 
not  know  how  it  was  until  I  asked  for  information  from  the  operator 
t  here,  and  he  stated  to  me  that  they  had  not  had  a  local  for  eight  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now.  by  local  you  mean  what? 

Mr.  Blair.  A  local  train  that  we  have.  We  have  been  having  one 
or  two  local  trains  from  Crookston  to  Larimore.  Those  take  up  our 
local  froif'ht.  They  pick  up  the  freight  from  local  points  west  and 
come  back  loaded,  mostly  with  wheat. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  gather  up  cars  of  wheat  at  the  smaller  sta- 
tions and  make  up  tne  trains  where? 

Mr.  Blair.  At  the  Larimore  division  point.  The  roads  lead  in 
there  from  the  north,  from  the  section  of  the  country  where  they 
bring  down  wheat,  and  also  from  the  west,  and  there  is  where  the 
train  is  made  up  and  carried  forward.  That  is  local  to  Crookston. 
Then,  if  they  have  not  cars  enough  to  make  a  good  big  train,  they 
take  those  cars  and  come  in  at  Larimore  and  make  up  a  big  train; 
but  at  Crookston,  I  imagine,  their  trains  are  pretty  heavily  loaded. 


104  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  cars  have  to  be  picked  up  by  the  locals  or  not 
move  at  all? 

Mr.  Blair.  That  is,  at  our  point. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  find  out  why  they  had  no  locals? 

Mr.  Blair.  It  was  on  account  of  four  to  six  engines  being  knocked 
out  of  commission  there  in  a  couple  of  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  practice  known  as 
buying  empties — paying  fees  to  railway  employees  to  furnish  cars? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  understand  that  practice  exists. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  gave  you  that  understanding? 

Mr.  Blair.  From  the  information  I  have  gotten  from  parties  at 
different  stations. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  had  a  meeting  of  the  agents  of  your  association 
elevators,  did  you  not,  at  which  such  a  statement  was  made  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  Very  nearly  a  year  ago. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  was  that  statement? 

Mr.  Blair.  They  said  that  we  were  not  paying  enough  for  them  in 
order  to  get  them,  and  that  if  we  were  paying  for  them,  we  could 
get  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  any  agent  say  he  was  paying? 

Mr.  Blair.  He  said  u  he  would  have  paid  for  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  he  was  not? 

Mr.  Blair.  That  he  was  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  anyone  tell  you  that  he  did  pay? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes;  parties  told  me  that  they  haa  gotten  cars,  but 
they  had  to  put  up  for  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Who  told  you  that  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  One  of  their  local  agents. 

Mr.  Marble.  One  of  your  local  agents  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  One  of  the  agents  in  the  other  company. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  other  company? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  think  the  Duluth  Elevator  Company. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  at  what  point  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  In  Emerado. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  When  was  that  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  That  took  place  about  a  year  ago. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Has  any  thing  of  that  kind  definitely  come 
to  your  knowledge  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  Not  directly;  that  is  only  hearsay. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  well  enough  so  you  have  got  positive  evidence 
of  it? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  heard  such  from  farmers  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  From  farmers. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  you  do  business  on  the  Northern  Pacific  Railway? 

Mr.  Blair.  Do  I? 

Mr.  BuNN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Blair.  I  have  had  just  one  occasion  to  do  business  on  the 
Northern  Pacific.  We  are  on  the  Great  Northern.  That  was  when 
they  positively  refused  to  furnish  cars. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Outside  of  that  your  business  is  all  with  the  Great 
Northern  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir;  mostly. 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  106 

Mr.  BuNN.  All  the  elevators  you  are  interested  in  are  on  the  Great 
Northern  Railway  ? 

Mr.  Blaiu.  Not  all  of  them. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  are  on  the  Northern  Pacific? 

Mr.  Blaib.  There  are  probably  about  a  third  of  them  on  the  North- 
em  Pacific. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Have  you  any  evidence,  sir,  that  your  employees  or 
any  other  employees  have  Seen  able  to  pay  money  and  get  empty 
cars  when  other  people  could  not? 

Mr.  Blair.  On  which  road  ? 

Mr.  BuNN.  Have  you  any  evidence  on  any  road  that  people  have 
been  buying  empty  cars  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  Not  absolute  evitlence,  any  more  than  what  they  have 
told  me.  Whether  they  are  lying  or  telling  the  truth,  you  can  take 
it  for  what  it  is  worth. 

Mr.  BuNN.  It  is  purely  hearsay. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  brought  that  out  in  direct  examination  very 
clearly. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Have  you  got  any  employees  that  pretend  to  know  any 
rfiore  about  it  than  you  do? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Who  is  this  man  in  your  employ  who  made  this  state- 
ment that  he  got  empties  if  he  paid  for  them  ? 

Mr.  Blair.  That  is  the  point  I  spoke  of  at  the  meeting. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Yes. 

Mr.  Blair.  It  was  a  fellow  by  the  name  of  Hancock,  working  for 
the  farmers'  elevator. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Was  he  in  your  service? 

Mr.  Blair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Did  you  ask  somebody  later  about  that? 

Mr.  Blair.  Sir? 

Mr.  BuNN.  Did  you  ask  somebody  later  about  that? 

Mr.  Blair.  No,  sir;  I  have  not. 

Mr.  BuNN,  Will  you  ascertain  if  he  knows  any  circumstances  of 
the  sort,  and  if  he  does  have  him  advise  the  Commission? 

Mr.  Blair.  I  know  something  of  the  understanding,  and 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  not  my  question.  Will  you  see  him  and  see  if 
he  knows  anything  of  that  sort,  and,  if  he  does,  ask  him  to  advise  the 
Commission. 

Mr.  Bi^viR.  I  may  not  see  him  right  away,  but  I  may  see  him  in 
the  course  of  a  month. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Blair. 

(The  witness  was  excused.)  * 

W.  P.  CocKEY,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified 
as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  name,  sir,  is 

Mr.  CocKEY.  W.  P.  Cockey. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  reside  in  Minneapolis? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  is  your  business  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  We  are  manufacturers  of  lime,  staves,  heading,  and 
salt;  also  other  materials. 


106  CAS  SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  have  had  occasion  during  this  year  to  make  a 
number  of  carload  shipments  from  Superior  to  the  west,  have  you  not  ? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  have  prepared  a  table  showing  the  length 
of  time  those  shipments,  or  some  oi  them,  have  been  in  transit  ? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  a  partial  table. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  a  partial  table  and  you  brought  that  with 
you? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  May  I  see  it?     (Witness  hands  paper  to  Mr.  Marble). 

Mr.  Marble.  This  table  is  made  up  from  your  books  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir;  from  the  records. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  correctly  states  the  car  numbers,  the  origin, 
the  railroads,  the  destinations,  the  date  of  shipment,  date  and  place 
of  deliver^'  to  the  Soo  Line  by  the  Northern  Facific,  the  time  in  the 
;^orthem  Pacific's  hands,  and  the  date  of  deUvery  at  destination, 
and  also  the  time  in  the  Soo's  hands? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  all  of  those  shipments  took  place  from  the 
ninth  month  to  the  eleventh  month  of  this  year? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir;  that  table  is  a  partial  account  of  the  ship- 
ments, taken  at  random.  It  don't  represent  a  fractional  portion  of 
them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  show  the  worst  instances  here? 

Mr.  Cockey.  No,  sir;  we  just  went  through.  I  have  a  man  here — 
a  freight  man  here  that  probably  can  ^ve  testimony  as  to  that  better 
than  I  can.  I  brought  him  along.  I  just  instructed  him  to  make 
up  a  list  of  some  of  the  shipments,  and  I  did  not  want  to  take  time 
to  go  through  and  make  out  some  more  because  it  would  be  a  very 
long  job. 

^I^.  Marble.  We  ^^•ill  examine  him  as  to  the  table,  then.  Have 
you  had  trouble  this  year  as  to  the  length  of  time  cars  have  been  in 
transit  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  A  great  deal,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  More  this  year  than  heretofore  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  More  than  ever  in  the  twenty  years  of  my  business 
experience. 

Mr.  ALvrble.  What  roads  have  you  had  trouble  with  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Well,  I  might  say,  most  all  of  them.  But  particu- 
larly the  aggravated  cases  have  been  with  the  Northern  Pacific  and  Soo. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  vou  any  explanation  of  the  delays  in  transit — 
have  any  explanations  been  made  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Explanations  were  made  to  us  in  the  tracers  that  we 
might  put  Qiut  after  the  shipment,  that  they  could  not  get  cars  through, 
but  they  were  not  very  frequent — those  explanations.  And  they  have 
ceased  this  year  to  reply  to  tracers.  Every  other  year,  except- 
ing this  year,  one  might  Have  made  a  shipment  of  a  car,  and  if  that 
car  was  delayed,  say,  three  or  four  days,  we  could  put  a  tracer  out 
if  the  customer  wanted  to  know  where  it  was,  and  why  he  hadn't  got 
it,  and  we  would  put  a  tracer  out  and  they  would  reply  that  the  car 
was  such  and  sucn  a  place  and  would  arrive  at  such  anil  such  a  time. 
This  year  they  have  ceased  to  make  replies  in  general. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  all  of  the  railroads  ceased  to  make  repUes  in 
general  ? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  *  107 

Mr.  CoCKEY.  I  do  not  know.  I  can  not  say  all  of  them,  but  it 
has  been — I  would  say  that  my  freight  man  could  probably  testify  to 
that  better  than  I  could. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  3^ou  are  experiencing  more  trouble  this  year 
than  ever  heretofore  ? 

Mr.  CoCKEY.  l^nheard  of  more. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  found  out  what  the  nature  of  the  delay 
was  and  where  it  took  place — whether  in  Superior  or  at  the  division 
point  ? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  In  many  instances  that  will  show  that  there  is  some 
delay  in  getting  the  cars  from  the  Northern  Pacific  at  the  junction 
point,  called  Glen  wood,  of  the  Soo  road,  and  thereafter  getting  on  the 
Soo  Road.  I  think  that  table  shows  delays  in  some  instances  up  to 
thirty  days.  Probably  you  notice  it  at  the  top  of  the  column.  My 
attention  was  just  callecf  to  it.  There  is  a  car  shipped  there — Soo  car 
No.  3372,  shipped  October  29 — not  delivered  yet,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^Vnd  that  car  was  destined  wnere? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Cold  Harbor,  N.  Dak. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  shipped  much  more  this  sum- 
mer than  last  summer? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Well,  sir,  there  has  been  about  a  20  per  cent  increase, 
I  believe,  this  year. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  far  west  do  your  products  go  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Oh,  as  far  as  Washington,  su". 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Are  you  located  on  the  Northern  Pacific  tracks,  in 
Superior? 

Mr.  Cockey.  We  are  located  on  what  is  known  as  terminal  tracks 
at  Superior,  which  is,  as  I  understand  it,  a  little  switching  road  for  all 
the  railroaas. 

Mr.  BuNN.  A  little  switching  road  in  which  all  the  roads  are 
interested  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  are  not  directly  on  the  Northern  Pacific  tracks? 

Mr.  Cockey.  No,  sir;  on  this  terminal. 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  many  switches  are  there  between  you  and  the 
Northern  Pacific  tracks? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Between  this  terminal  point  and  the  Northern  Pacific  ? 

Mr.  BuNN.  Between  your  house  and  the  Northern  Pacific  tracks? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Well,  now;  I  could  not  answer  that  for  sure,  but  I 
would  say,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge  of  that  situation,  I  would  say 
about  two. 

Mr.  BuNN.  I  suppose  considerable  delays  have  been  right  there, 
have  they  not? 

Mr.  Cockey.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that,  as  to  where  the  place  is 
that  they  have  been. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  who  controls  that  terminal  road  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir;  I  know  by  hearsay  and  by  information  given 
to  me  during  the  last  twenty  years  of  my  experience,  and  I  think  it  is 
a  commonly  known  fact  that  the  various  roads  entering  Superior, 
Wis.,  control  this  terminal  road;  in  fact,  I  can  state,  sir,  ihave  been 
told  that  by  railroad  people  themselves. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  correct. 


108  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  that  so? 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Cockev,  these  letters  you  have  brought  in  are 
carbon  copies  of  letters  WTrtten  by  you  to  the  agents  of  the  railroads 
about  these  shipments,  and  also  tneu*  replies — one  or  two  rephes  from 
these  agents? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  They  are  carbon  copies  of  tracers  and  such  replies 
as  we  received.  We  do  not  receive  any  more  replies.  We  trace  also 
from  Superior.  I  have  not  the  Superior  papers  here,  but  I  can  testify 
to  the  fact  that  we  have  established  a  policy  up  there  at  our  Superior 

Slant  this  year  to  trace  all  shipments  because  of  this  inorainate 
elay,  and  they  ceased  to  make  any  reply  to  the  tracers  this  year. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  been  able  to  trace  cars  that 
have  not  yet  been  delivered  ? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Why,  sir,  we  sent  the  tracers  out,  but  we  get  no  replies. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Take  that  particular  car  you  mentioned. 
Have  you  located  it  ? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those  letters  are  of  interest.  There  is  one  matter 
here  I  wish  to  bring  before  you,  where  you  were  notified  that  con- 
signee had  refused  to  receive  cars  of  which  you  were  inquiring. 

Mr.  CocKEY.  That  has  occurred  a  number  of  times,  Mr.  Attorney, 
this  year.  That  is  not  at  all  uncommon.  We  will  make  a  shipment 
of  our  class  of  goods.  They  are  perishable.  We  ship  to  a  country 
merchant.  I  will  have  to  make  some  little  explanation.  We  are 
manufactiu*ing  a  class  of  goods  which  is  perishable  in  summer  time, 
very  much  more  so  than  in  cold  weather.  The  deterioration  of  that 
class  of  goods  where  the  thermometer  ranges  around  80  to  90  degrees 
would  be  very  rapid.  The  deterioration  of  that  class  of  goods  when 
the  thermometer  is  40  degrees  or  so  below  freezing  point  would  be 
slow.  Now,  when  we  ship  a  customer  that  class  or  goods  at  a  high 
temperature  and  he  has  not  received  that  car  inside  of  a  week  or  ten 
days — for  example,  take  North  Dakota — he  knows  that  car  is  worth- 
less when  he  gets  it,  and  he  writes  back  to  us  and  says  he  refuses  it.  I 
think  probably  something  in  there  will  show  that.  I  do  not  know 
how  many  instances  of  that  there  have  been. 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  a  letter  written  Mr.  George  C.  Conn,  agent  of 
the  Soo  road  [referring  to  paper]. 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Excuse  me,  Mr.  Attorney.  In  that  particular  case 
you  asked  me  about,  which  I  did  not  answer,  another  car  was  put  in 
transit  by  another  road,  in  order  to  get  it  there  as  near  as  could  be 
by  that  road  that  that  letter  refers  to.  We  were  instructed  to  put 
another  car  in  transit  to  get  the  goods  out  there,  using  the  other 
road  and  hoping  they  would  get  it  there. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  letter  is  dated  September  6,  addressed  to  Mr. 
Conn,  stating, 

We  have  the  following  ILst  of  cars  shipped  via  your  road  containing  perishable  goods 
like  lime,  plaster,  etc. 

It  gives  the  destination  as  various  points  in  Minnesota,  North 
Dakota,  etc.     Then  it  goes  on  to  say — 

Some  of  these  cars  have  been  out  long  enough  to  have  made  the  contents  of  the  care 
entirely  worthless.  Both  plaster  and  lime  will  be  ruined  if  left  in  a  hot  l)OX  car  during 
three  or  four  weeks  in  such  a  heated  period  as  we  have  recently  passed  over.  Besides 
this  is  very  serious  to  us  in  other  respects. 


CAB   SHOBTAGE.  109 

Our  ctistomere  do  not  have  the  goods  to  sell  and  thev  are  losing  money  on  sales  while 
their  competitors  are  staling  them.  E^ven  though  tliey  are  reimhurswi  for  the  full 
amount  of  the  invoiced  price  of  the  car,  they  still  do  not  get  back  their  U)88. 

We  beg  to  ask  if  you  can  not  in  some  way  get  after  these  cars  and  get  them  through  to 
destination. 

There  are  27  cars  in  this  list.  I  will  ask  you  the  approximate 
value  of  the  contents  of  those  cars  ? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Those  goods  we  are  manufacturing  are  a  low  class  of 
goods.  Well,  for  lime  and  plaster,  probably,  tliat  would  average  $150 
or  $200  a  car  but  for  pa[)er  it  would  be  a  thousand  dollars  to  a  car. 

Mr.  Marble.  Paper  would  not  be  perishable? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Paper  would  not  be  perishable?  Oh,  yes;  paper 
would  be  perishable  if  it  was  put  in  a  hot  car — a  certain  kind  of  paper. 
Take  goods  like  tar  and  felt  and  put  it  in  a  hot  box  car  and  it  will 
melt,  and  it  is  perishable  to  that  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  a  letter  dated  August  30, 1906,  to  Mr.  George  C. 
Conn,  general  freight  agent,  Soo  Railway,  city: 

Dear  Sir:  Following  is  copy  of  telegram  received  from  Mr.  Eugene  Teutsch,  Minot, 
N.  Dak.:  "Car  26170,  Soo  Line,  shipped  August  8,  not  here  vet.  Please  trace.  If  you 
don't  get  car  in  s«x)n,  will  not  accept."  This  car  contained  lime,  a  very^  very  perish- 
able article.  It  has  been  out  now  over  three  weeks,  a  long  enough  time  to  make 
almost  worthless,  if  not  entirely  so,  the  lime.  Wo  have  no  doubt  but  that  you  will 
receive  a  claim  from  Mr.  Teutach  for  this  lime. 

Meanwhile  we  will  ask  that  you  kindly  take  the  matter  up  and  see  that  the  car  is 
delivered. 

Do  you  remember  that  instance  ? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Yes;  because  he  came  in  and  made  a  trip  all  the  way 
down  here  from  Minot  to  see  if  he  could  not  get  us  to  exert  influence 
sufficient  to  get  that  car  out  there,  and  when  I  explained  to  him  that 
we  could  not  do  so ;  that  we  were  noninfluential  in  a  matter  of  this  kind, 
he  instructed  us  to  make  a  shipment  over  another  railroad,  because 
he  wished  to  have  the  goods — he  had  to  have  them,  and  he  hoped  to 
get  one  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  some  of  the  cars  actually  spoiled  in  transit? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  This  question  of  spoiling  is  a  matter  of  degree,  don't 
you  know.     It  is  deterioration. 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  a  letter  dated  October  26,  to  Mr.  Geo.  C. 
Conn,  Soo  Railway,  city: 

Dear  Sir:  On  September  26  we  shipped  to  the  Cash  Bazaar,  of  Ashley,  N.  Dak.,  car 
No.  S(X)  20282;  salt.  This  car  has  been  out  for  very  n(>arly  a  month.  This  firm  is 
writing  us  that  they  are  entirely  out  of  salt,  and  that  they  will  decline  to  receive  the 
car  unless  same  is  delivered  at  once,  so  you  will  probably  have  a  claim  for  this  car  of 
salt  from  the  above-mentioned  firm. 

Kindly  trace  this  at  once,  and  show  delivery. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Suppose  you  put  those  letters  in  the  record 
and  just  pass  on  as  rapidly  as  possible. 

Mr.  Marble.  All  right. 

(The  same  are  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1  to 
Mr.  Cockey's  testimony.") 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Cockey,  I  understand  you  say  that  you 
had  sustained  losses  by  the  deterioration  of  your  products  in  transit. 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Haelan.  Now   have  you   also   sustained   financial 


110  CAB    SHORTAGE. 

losses  in  the  way  of  curtailing  the  business  that  you  otherwise  would 
have  received  if  the  transportation  had  been  better? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Yes,  sir;  and  a  very  great  one.  We  can  not  measure 
it,  but  we  believe  that  it  is  a  very  serious  one. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  been  compelled  to  refuse  orders 
because  you  could  not  deliver  within  the  time  stated  by  the  cus- 
tomers ? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  done  that  in  many  instances. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  put  it  in  a  general  way  without 
going  into  details.  Your  position  is  that  on  account  of  poor  trans- 
portation this  year  that  it  has  caused  you  loss  in  two  ways — first,  by 
deterioration  of  your  material  in  transit  and  then  by  loss  of  orders 
that  you  otherwise  would  have  received  ? 

Mr.  CocKEY.  I  could  answer  that  question;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  One  question,  Mr.  Cockey.  Are  the  com- 
plaints of  nondelivery  of  cars  based  upon  single  instances,  or  is  it  a 
general  complaint,  so  far  as  your  shipments  are  concerned?  Are  all 
of  the  shipments  delayed  an  unusual  time  this  year  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Well,  sir,  as  I  have  answered  that  question  before,  I 
might  say  that  the  most  aggravated  cases  with  us  have  been  with 
the  Soo  and  Northern  Pacific.  I  would  probably  have  a  stray  car 
with  the  Great  Northern;  but  there  is  far  more  delay  this  year  than 
for  previous  years  by  all  the  roads. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  point  I  want  to  make  is  this:  The  rail- 
road people  seem  to  contend  that  solitary  instances  may  be  picked 
out  where  a  car  here  and  there  has  gone  astray,  and  that  car  may 
take  twenty,  thirty,  forty,  and  in  one  case  we  have  here  fifty-four, 
days;  but  that  these  are  solitary  instances  and  in  no  way  to  be  taken 
as  at  all  usual  or  customary  at  this  time.  What  is  your  experience 
in  that  regard  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  I  think  I  have  a  letter  here.  I  have  an  abstract  here 
that  shows  about  20  cars  that  have  been  delayed  anywhere  from — on 
the  various  roads — anywhere  from  a  month  to  six  weeks. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  the  general  run  of  your  business — 
that  is  in  the  general  run  of  your  business  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  That  is  in  the  general  run  of  our  business,  and  then 
that  is  only  a  very  small  fractional  portion  of  these  delays.  We  did 
not  attempt  to  make  up  a  whole  record,  you  know. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Then  you  did  not  pick  those  out  as  excep- 
tional instances  of  delay  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  I  understood,  Mr.  Cockey,  you  to  say  that  you  did  not 
know  anything  about  that;  that  your  freight  man  could  testify  as 
to  that. 

Mr.  Cockey.  As  to  the  details  of  that  matter  he  can  do  better  than 
I  can,  because  I  turn  it  over  to  him. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  gave  instructions,  however,  to  go 
through  your  books  and  gather  up  some  instances,  and  not  to  specify 
those  particularly  aggravated — not  to  pick  out  the  aggravated  cases, 
but  to  give  a  picture  of  what  appears  generally  on  the  books  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir;  I  thmk  I  did.  I  do  not  think  I  told  him 
to  put  in  that  statement  any  cars  that  were  not  delayed  at  all.  We 
ship  a  great  many  cars.     We  handle,  for  example,  m  some  way  or 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  Ill 

other  about  30  cars  a  day,  and  we  would  not — I  did  not  tell  him 
to  make  up  a  statement  that  did  not  include  any  delays  at  all  because 
that  would  be  of  no  importance,  as  it  occurred  to  me. 

Commissioner  Laxe.  We  want  to  know,  then,  just  what  percent- 
age of  delayed  cars  that  is  to  the  general  body  of  your  business? 

Mr.  BuNX.  I  understood  the  witness  to  say,  in  direct  examina- 
tion, that  he  could  not  tell  about  that,  but  he  had  a  freight  agent 
who  could  tell  about  it. 

Mr.  Bright,  of  the  Soo  Line.  Mr.  Cockey,  you  spoke  of  a  car  des- 
tined— made  mention  of  a  car  in  connection  with  Cold  Harbor.  Was 
Cold  Harbor  the  destination  of  that  car? 

Mr.  Cockey.  I  think  so.     That  record  will  sliow. 

Mr.  Bright.  Please  give  me  the  number  of  that  car  and  say  if  that 
was  the  destination, 

Mr.  Cockey.  This  was  car  No.  3372,  shipped  from  Superior, 
Northern  Pacific  and  Soo,  destination  Cold  Haroor,  N.  Dak. 

Mr.  Bright.  And  the  date? 

Mr.  Cockey.  I  do  not  know,  sir.     This  record  will  show. 

Mr.  Bright.  You  do  not  know  from  memory  ? 
.  Mr.  Cockey.  Oh,  no,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Date  of  shipment  October  29.  Date  and  place  of  dcliverv.  to  Glenwtxxi,  which 
is  the  division  point  of  Soo  road,  Novembers.  Time  in  hands  of  Northern  Pacific, 
five  days. 

Mr.  Bright.  That  is  enough. 

Mr.  Cockey.  Destination,  not  yet.     Thirty-seven  days  out. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  all? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  want  to  ask  just  one  question.  In  con- 
ducting your  own  affairs  you  come  in  contact  with  mei-chants  and 
dealers  in  other  lines  of  business,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  In  daily  contact? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Oh,  yes,  sir ;  I  say  so. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  found  that  there  was  a  general 
coniplaint  in  your  community  of  car  shortage  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  More  so  this  year  than  any  other  year? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Invariably  so. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  a  general  complaint  of  delay  in 
transportation  ? 

Mr.  Cockey.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

A.  S.  Kassebaum,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testi- 
fied as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  name? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  A.  S.  Kassebaum. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  employed  by  what  firm  ? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  The  Superior  Manufacturing  Company. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  is  the  firm  of  Mr.  CocKey? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  make  up  this  list  of  cars  [exhibiting  paper 
to  witness]? 


112  CAB   SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  (Examining  paper.)     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  From  what  records  or  books  of  the  company? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  I  took  it  from  the  records  we  have  oeen  keeping 
in  tracing  those  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  this  is  taken  from  the  list  of  delayed  cars? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  pick  out  those  delayed  longest? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  No,  sir;  I  took  those  just  delayed — that  ap- 
peared to  me  from  the  time  there  that  they  ought  to  have  been 
gotten  through. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  did  you  have  in  that  list  of  delayed 
cars;  can  you  tell  us? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  No,  sir;  I  have  not  any  idea. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  great  many  more  than  here? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  did  not  select  to  get  those  which  were  the 
longest  time  out? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Will  you  determine  and  let  me  know  this  afternoon 
how  many  cars  were  in  that  list,  about  what  the  total  number  of 
shipments  were  during  that  time  the  list  was  made  up,  and  the  total 
cars  delayed? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  statement  is  correct  according  to  the  books? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  not  stop  to  read  it,  but  will  ask  that  it  be 
marked  as  an  exhibit. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1  to 
Mr.  Kassebaum's  testimony.") 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  time  does  this  list  cover? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  It  covers  from  August  15th  down  to  the  present 
time. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Down  to  the  present  time?     From  August  15th? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  shipped  a  great  many  cars  during  that  time  that 
there  was  no  complaint  about — so  I  take  it? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  And  you  are  not  prepared  to  say  what  proportion  of 
your  cars  were  delayed? 

Mr.  Kassebaum.  No,  sir;  I  am  not. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

A.  E.  SwANSON,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified 
as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  at  Barlow,  N.  Dak.,  do  you? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  cashier  of  the  Securities  State  Bank? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir;  I  am  president. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  town? 

Mr.  SwANsoN.  Barlow. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  grain-buying  conditions  at 
that  point — the  elevator  conditions? 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  113 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  elevators  are  there  ? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Five. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  large  a  town  is  it,  Mr.  Swanson. 

Mr.  Swanson.  About  250  is  the  size  of  the  town. 

Mr.  Marble.  Wliat  railroad  are  you  on? 

Mr.  Swanson.  The  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  those  elevators  fille<l  with  grain? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  any  grain  lying  in  the  open  air? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  how  many  elevators? 

Mr.  Swanson.  There  is  none  at  any  of  the  elevators.     I  have  charge 
of  some  and  Mr.  J.  R.  Engberg  at  others. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  charge  of  the  grain  that  is  on  the  ground? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  why  did  you  put  it  on  the  ground  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Because  I  had  no  other  place  to  put  it.     I  could  not 
get  it  in  the  elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  could  not  get  cars? 

Mr.  Swanson.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  try  to? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  a  time  did  you  try? 

Mr.  Swanson.  I  tried  since  the  last  part  of  October. 

Mr.  Marble.  Since  the  last  part  of  October? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  show  you  this  picture  and  ask  if  you  recognize 
the  same  ?     [Exhibits  photograph  to  Mr.  Swanson.] 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  a  correct  picture  of  the  situation? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  your  pile  of  grain  shown  in  that  picture? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Make  an  "X"  mark  on  your  pile  of  grain,  if  you  will. 

Mr.  Swanson.  Right  there  [indicating]. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  bushels  of  grain  are  in  the  pile  you  have 
marked  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  About  5,200. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  bushels  of  grain  in  this  other  pile  [indi- 
cating] ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  About  5,000  bushels. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  5,000  bushels  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  has  that  grain  been  on  the  ground  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Since  the  last  part  of  October. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  bushels  of  grain  will  those  ele- 
vators hold  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  They  will  hold  about  150,000  bushels. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  bushels  were  at  Barlow  at  the 
time  this  photograph  was  taken,  awaiting  movement? 

Mr.  Swanson.  The  elevators  were  all  filled. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  10,000  on  the  ground? 
S.  Doc.  333,  5D-2 8 


114  CAR   SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  is  the  value  of  the  grain  at  Barlow  1 

Mr.  SwANSON.  The  value  of  the  grain  in  store  ? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Just  the  average  value  by  bushels. 

Mr.  Sw ANSON.  You  mean  in  the  elevators  and  what  is  on  the 
ground  ? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  don't  mean  the  aggregate.  What  do 
they  sell  it  for  by  the  bushel  at  Barlow? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  By  the  bushel,  we  sell  it 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  do  you  buy  it  for? 

Mr.  Sw  ANSON.  About  60  cents  a  bushel. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  long  prior  to  the  time  this  picture  was 
taken  had  these  elevators  been  filled  ? 

Mr.  Sw  ANSON.  Oh,  about  ten  days. 

Commissioner  Lane.  About  ten  days  ? 

Mr.  Sw  ANSON.  Well,  fifteen  days. 

Commissioner  Lane,  How  much  more  grain  is  there  in  that  imme- 
diate neighborhood  and  tributary  to  Barlow  that  is  ready  for  sale 
and  that  has  not  been  sold? 

Mr.  Sw  ANSON.  About  250,000  bushels. 

Commissioner  Lane.  At  this  time  last  year  how  much  grain  was 
there  that  had  not  been  sold  and  was  still  held  by  the  farmers  ? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  I  would  estimate  about  100,000. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  about  150,000  bushels  more  is  held 
back  this  year  by  the  farmers  because  of  inability  to  sell  it  at  Barlow. 
Is  that  what  I  am  to  understand? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  ask  that  this  be  put  in  evidence  and  marked 
as  an  exhibit  to  Mr.  Swanson's  testimony.  What  is  your  position 
with  the  elevator  company? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Treasurer  and  manager  of  the  Farmers'  Elevator 
Company  at  Barlow. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  trouble  at  your  elevator  getting  cars? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  get  filled  up  early  in  the  season  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  ^Lvrble.  What  effect  did  that  have  on  the  price  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Put  down  the  price.  You  take  grain  that  we 
ordinarily  buy  as  No.  1  has  been  bought  as  No.  2.  They  were  obliged 
to  sell  their  grain  at  a  reduced  grade,  that  is  a  lower  grade  of  grain, 
and  at  a  reducedprice. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  would  be  the  difference  in  price  between  No.  1 
and  No.  2? 

Mr.  Swanson.  About  3  cents. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  the  farmers,  you  say,  got  about  3  cents  a 
bushel  less? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Well,  I  will  say  some  of  them  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  Some  have  not  lost  much  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Some  lost  more,  or  is  that  the  greatest? 

Mr.  Swanson.  That  is  about  the  average. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  conditions  been  growing  better  or  worse? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Growing  worse. 


CAB  SHOBTAGE.  115 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  this  a  statement  that  you  have  prepared  from 
your  books,  showing  number  of  cars  furnished  your  elevator  this  year  ? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  \  es,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  shows  up  to  date  you  have  shipped  26  cars 
this  year  as  against  44  last  year? 

Mr.  Sw ANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  M  Ainu.K.  That  you  were  seventeen  days  without  a  car? 

Mr.  Sw  ANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  ask  vou  if  you  had  experienced  failure  to  get 
cars  moved  after  being  loaded  ? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  experience  have  you  had  in  that  regard? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  We  loaded  one  car  on  the  17th  day  of  November, 
and  it  was  still  on  the  track  yesterday  when  I  left. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  ready  to  go? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  A  car  loaded  on  the  17th  of  November  that 
has  not  moved  from  your  station? 

Mr.  Sw  ANSON.  Yes,  sir;  not  moved;  was  there  when  I  left  there. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  cars — there  was  one  car? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Filled  with  grain? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  reason  does  the  agent  give  for  that  failure? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  He  gives  no  reason  whatever. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  have  repeatedly  brought  the  matter  to 
his  attention? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  billed  the  car  out. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  you  repeatedly  called  attention  to  it? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Well,  no;  we  have  not  called  his  attention  to  it 
repeatedly;  he  has  knowledge  that  the  car  was  there,  by  reason  of 
billing  it  out  at  the  time.  We  have  called  his  attention  so  many 
times  to  cars  being  delayed  that  we  thought  it  absolutely  useless  to 
say  anything  further. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  yours  a  competitive  point?  Any  more 
than  one  railroad  in  there? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Not  through  our  town;  there  is  the  Soo,  within 
about  12  miles  of  our  town. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  what  town  is  the  Soo? 

Mr.  Swanson.  There  is  Lemert,  and  then  there  is  Carrington. 

Mr.  Marble.  First,  before  we  get  that — have  you  had  other  cars 
that  have  been  delayed  in  movement  after  being  loaded? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many? 

Mr.  Swanson.  We  have  had  quite  a  few. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  other  elevators  had  the  same  experience? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  trouble  with  slowness  of  movement 
after  they  did  start? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  To  what  point? 

Mr.  Swanson.  To  Duluth. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  slow  was  that  movement  then? 


116  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  SwANSON.  I  can  not  exactly  state;  I  have  an  instance  stated 
there,  I  think.  (Witness  examines  paper.)  Loaded  two  cars  on 
November  14th  and  have  not  as  yet  received  any  returns. 

Mr.  Marble.  Which  means  that  you  have  not  been  notified  of 
their  arrival  at  Duluth? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  those  are  extreme  instances,  are  they,  of  delay? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Not  particularly  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  had  other  experiences  of  the  same  sort? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  your  neighbors  also  have  complaints  of  the  same 
sort? 

Mr.  Sw ANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  distance  is  it  from  your  city  to  Duluth? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  I  think  about  400  miles.  No,  it  is  not  that  much; 
a  little  over  300  miles — 350  miles. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  a  true  statement  from  your  books? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  the  conditions  been  different  at  your 
town? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  has  been  different? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  At  Lemert,  on  the  Soo  line,  which  is  a  small  sta- 
tion and  has  2  elevators.  They  have  received  a  little  more  than  75 
cars  this  year.  At  Guptill,  64  miles  from  our  town  and  4  miles  from 
Carrington,  which  has  1  elevator  and  no  station,  they  had  received, 
from  information  that  I  have,  more  than  75  cars.  Barlow,  which 
has  5  elevators — loading  platform — has  received  about  125  cars, 
against  the  number  of  cars  they  have  received,  compared  with  the 
elevators  that  they  have. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  cars  did  you  receive  in  Barlow? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Twenty-six  cars  for  our  elevator. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  are  not  including  all  the  cars  that  come 
to  the  other — to  all  the  elevators? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  He  made  a  statement  that  there  were  125. 

Mr.  SwANSON.  One  hundred  and  twenty-five;  I  made  a  statement 
for  the  entire  shipment  this  fall  from  elevators  and  loading  plat- 
forms— entire  shipments  from  Barlow. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  find  farmers  anxious  to  sell  wheat? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Exceedingly  anxious. 

Mr.  Marble.  Unable? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir;  unable  to  sell  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  No  market  there  now? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  No  market. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  what  portion  of  the  time  has  your  elevator 
been  open  for  business  during  the  last  two  months  ? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Our  elevator,  I  would  say,  has  not  been  open  to 
exceed  thirty  full  days  this  fall. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  three  months? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Since  the  1st  day  of  September. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  see  you  are  interested  in  the  banking  business — I 
will  ask  you  what  the  effect  commercially  this  has  been,  as  you  see 
it  as  a  banker,  upon  merchants? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  117 

Mr.  SwANSON.  It  has  made  collections  an  utter  impossibility — 
demoralized  trade.  I  have  been  connected  with  thi.s  bank  for  the 
last  tliree  years.  In  1904,  on  the  1st  day  of  November,  our  deiwsits 
were  $59,511.70,  our  loans  and  discounts  were  $30,746.73;  Novem- 
ber 1,  1905,  our  deposits  were  $47,314.19,  our  loans  and  discounts  at 
that  time  were  $30,211.31;  November  1,  1906,  our  dejwsits  we.e 
$45,997.76,  and  our  loans  and  discounts  were  $34,662.40.  And  theie 
is  a  continual  demand  for  money  at  the  present  time.  The  bank 
is  unable  to  accommodate  all  the  customera  by  reason  of  the  car 
situation  being  as  it  is. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  a  demand  for  money  by  farmers  who  have 
wheat  to  sell,  and  are  unable  to  sell  it? 

Mr.  SwANsoN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  there  are  farmers  paying  interest  who  have  the 
wheat  to  sell,  who  would  be  glad  to  sell  it? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  coal  situation  at  your  town? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  The  coal  situation  has  been  all  right  up  to  the  pres- 
ent time.  We  have  had  veiy  little  difficidty,  but  we  have  a  number 
of  loads  on  the  road,  which  we  think  will  reach  there  in  plenty  of 
time  to  supply  the  demand.  I  learned  yesterday  when  I  left  that 
people  tributary  to  New  Rockford  were  getting  verj'  short  of  coal  by 
reason  of  no  coal  at  New  Rockford. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  one  of  the  districts  we  have  heard 
from,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Marble.  I  believe  it  is. 

Commissioner  IIarlan.  Your  position  is  that  the  failures  of  the 
•onipanies  to  move  the  wheat  has  aflFected  the  entire  vicinity? 

Mr.  SwANsoN.  Yes,  sir;  it  is. 

Commissioner  IIarlan.  And  has  brought  a  loss  of  3  cents  a  bushel 
to  the  farmers  in  the  price  of  wheat  ? 

Mr.  SwANsoN.  About  that.     I  would  say  that,  conservatively. 

Conmiissioner  Harlan.  Besides  that,  it  has  cost  them  something 
in  the  way  of  insurance  and  storage? 

Mr.  Swanson.  And  interest  on  money. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And,  in  addition,  I  assume  that  there  will 
be  some  loss  in  wheat  on  the  ground  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  what  will  that  amount  to — you  have 
got  10,000  bushels  there?  What  proportion  will  be  lost  if  it  is  not 
moved  promptly? 

Mr.  Swanson.  I  wish  to  state  that  the  entire  10,000  bushels  is  not 
there  yet;  only  half,  at  the  present  time.  There  will  be  a  loss,  I 
would  say,  of  25,000  or  30,000  bushels.  I  would  sav  even  more  than 
that,  by  reason  of  the  jack  rabbits  being  there  at  nignttime  and  eating 
it.  I  would  say  fully  50,000  bushels.  1  wish  to  add  further,  if  I  may, 
there  has  been  on  the  side  tracks  at  Barlow  three  empty  cars  and  we 
have  asked  the  agent  if  we  could  load  them.  He  said  no ; "  that  thev 
wore  for  Guptill,  which  was  4  miles  from  there  on  the  same  road; 
would  not  permit  us  to  load  them — would  not  permit  us  to  load  the 
grain  that  we  had  on  the  ground — that  is,  the  cars  wliich  were  on  the 
side  track  yesterday. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  Guptill  a  town  of  more  than  one  road  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  No,  sir. 


118  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  It  is  not  a  competitive  point  ? 

Mr.  SwANSON,  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  One  elevator  there  ? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  One  elevator. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Who  owns  that  elevator? 

Mr  Sw ANSON.  Anderson  Gage. 

Ccinmissioner  Harlan.  How  much  would  it  cost  you  to  haul  grain 
to  the  nearest  station  on  the  Soo  Line  by  wagons? 

Mr.  SwANSON.  It  would  take  10  cents  a  bushel,  depending  upon  the 
condition  of  the  weather  and  the  amount  of  snow  on  the  ground. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  makes  it  an  impossible  thing  to  do? 

Mr.  Sw  ANSON.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Swanson,  you  do  not  wish  to  be  understood  as 
saying  that  the  farmers  universally  sell  out  all  their  wheat  in  the 
autumn — that  farmers  sell  out  all  their  wheat  in  the  fall  ? 

Mr.  Sw  ANSON.  Why,  nearly  all  of  it,  yes,  sir;  with  the  exception  of 
seed. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  they  not  always  carry  over  considerable  to  spring? 

Mr.  Swanson.  No,  sir;  only  enough  for  seed  purposes. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  think  all  the  wheat  of  this  country  has  been  in 
previous  years  moved  to  Duluth  and  Minneapolis  in  ninety  days  ? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Practically  all;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  He  is  testifying  about  Barlow.  (To  Mr.  Swanson:) 
I  understand  you  to  mean  the  farmers  about  Barlow? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  replies  do  not  refer  to  the  entire  world — you 
are   testifying  about  Barlow? 

Mr.  Swanson.  Yes,  sir. 

(Witness  was  excused.) 

E.  J.  Weiser,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  was  examined, 
and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  initials  are? 

Mr.  Weiser.  E.  J.;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  ^ou  reside  at  Fargo,  N.  Dak.? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  J^Iarble.  What  is  your  business? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Banker. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  connection  have  you  with  the  banking 
business? 

Mr.  Weiser.  I  am  president  of  the  First  National  Bank. 

Mr.  Marble.  Of  Fargo  ? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  recently  made  investigation  into  the  grain 
selling  and  banking  conditions  throughout  your  State? 

Mr.  Weiser.  We  made  inquiries  from  the  country  banks  through- 
out the  State  as  to  what  amount  of  grain,  in  their  opinion,  was  still 
in  the  farmers'  hands,  and  as  to  the  amount  of  grain  which  has  been 
shipped  out  of  the  country. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  had  a  large  number  of  replies? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir;  about  350,  I  think. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  brought  them  with  you? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  119 

Mr,  Marble.  Without  stopping  to  read  them,  will  you  tell  us  what 
you  found  the  conditions  to  oe  ? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  territory  does  that  investigation 
cover? 

Mr.  Weiser.  These  cards  were  sent  to  every  bank  in  the  State  of 
North  Dakota — about  400  banks.  The  summair  of  all  the  replies 
which  we  got  was  to  the  effect  that  38  per  cent  of  the  crop  had  been 
shipped  out  of  the  State. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Thirty-eight  per  cent  had  been  shipped? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir;  that  33  per  cent  was  in  the  country  eleva- 
tors and  29  per  cent  was  in  the  farmers'  hands. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  get  complaint  of  car  shortage  and  inability 
to  ship  from  many  points! 

Mr.  Weiser.  Ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  proportion  of  the  points? 

Mr.  Weiser.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that.  It  is  the  general  cry  that 
we  hear  from  all  country  banlcs  throughout  the  State. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  get  different  results  from  competitive  points 
than  you  did  from  noncompetitive  points? 

Mr.  Weiser.  I  could  not  say.  I  did  not  examine  them  closely 
enough. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  notice  that  conditions  differed  on  one  rail- 
road from  another? 

Mr.  Weiser.  I  do  not  know  as  to  that.  I  made  a  list  of  the  diflPer- 
ent  counties  and  the  amount  of  grain  that  was  held  in  the  elevators 
that  had  been  sliipped,  but  I  did  not  compare  it  as'  to  the  railroads 
that  are  reached. 

Commissioner  Lane,  Do  you  know  whether  the  per  cent  that  is 
held  now  is  unusual  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir;  very  unusual. 

Commissioner  Lane.  To  wnat  extent  is  it  unusual,  approximately? 

Mr.  Weiser.  I  do  not  think  I  could  say  as  to  that;  1  am  not  suffi- 
ciently familiar  to  say. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  purport  of  these  reports  w£is  that  there  was  an 
unusual  amount  in  tne  farmers'  hands? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  was  because  the  fanners  were  unable  to 
find  a  market? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  make  any  investigation  as  to  the  prices 
received  by  the  farmers,  because  of  this  condition  ? 

Mr.  Weiser,  No,  sir, 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  at  any  point? 

Mr.  Weiser.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  business  affected — the  banking  business? 

Mr.  Weiser.  We  are  pretty  well  in  touch  throughout  the  State  of 
North  Dakota.  I  think  we  have  about  one  hundred  and  fifty  of  them 
keeping  accounts  with  us,  and  whereas  those  banks  had  sixty  days 
ago  balances  with  us  of  about  $600,000,  to-day  they  have  less  than 
$300,000,  and  we  are  loaning  them  $300,000  in  addition  that  we  were 
not  loaning  them  sixty  days  ago,  so  that  it  has  made  a  difference  so 
far  as  our  nanks  are  concerned  of  $600,000  that  we  have  loaned  to 
country  banks. 


120      .  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Your  understanding  is  due  to  the  inability 
of  the  farmers  to  make  shipments  of  wheat? 

Mr.  Weiser,  That  is  what  they  tell  us. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  did  that  condition  compare  to  this 
period  last  year? 

Mr.  Weiser.  We  should  not  be  loaning  country  banks  a  dollar  at 
this  time ;  they  should  all  be  paid  up. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Your  position  then  is  that  the  failure  of 
the  carriers  to  move  wheat  has  had  a  very  widespread  effect  finan- 
cially on  the  whole  thing? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Causing  loss  in  interest;  and  you  think  it 
probably  affects  the  price  received  by  the  farmer  for  his  grain  ? 

Mr.  Weiser.  I  should  judge  so;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And,  in  addition,  storage  charges,  insur- 
ance, and  possibly  some  loss  of  wheat  on  the  ground  ? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  observed  at  all  the  effect  upon  other  lines 
of  commerce — merchants,  sellers  of  goods  ? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Our  local  jobbers,  for  whom  we  carry  considerable 
money,  are  in  the  habit  of  paying  at  this  time  of  the  year,  and  they 
have  not  paid  us  at  all  this  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  they  tell  you  why? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes;  simply  gave  us  the  same  reason — the  other 
people  around  the  State  are  not  paying  them  up — making  no  collec- 
tions. 

Mr.  Marble.  These  are  the  cards  printed  by  you  and  sent  to  your 
correspondents,  and  I  will  read  one: 

First  National  Bank  of  Fargo. 

Gentlemen:  We  estimate  in  our  territory  that  40  per  cent  of  the  1906  crop  is  still 
in  the  fanners'  hands;  3b  per  cent  is  in  local  elevators;  25  per  cent  has  been  shipped. 

Security  Bank  of  Dazey, 

Dazey,  N.  Dak. 

Mr.  Marble.  These  are  the  cards  received  by  you  ? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  May  we  take  them  and  tabulate  them  ? 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir;  you  may  take  this,  Mr.  Marble.  That  sim- 
ply divides  the  State  into  counties  and  shows  the  amount  in  the  eleva- 
tors, and  the  percentage  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  is  a  tabulation  by  counties,  which  we  will  put  in 
without  stopping  to  read. 

Mr.  Weiser.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Weiser,  is  it  not,  generally  speaking,  true  that  it 
pays  to  carry  wheat  over  winter? 

Mr.  Weiser.  I  am  not  a  wheat  man ;  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  BuNN.  I  thought  you  were  a  banker.  Do  you  not  know,  as  a 
banker,  that  is  so? 

Mr.  Weiser.  I  know  that  few  farmers  in  North  Dakota  are  in  a 
position  to  carry  their  wheat  over  the  winter? 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  you  not  know  that  the  price  of  wheat  in  the  spring  in 
this  country  is  usually  enough  higher  to  more  than  pay  the  insurance 
and  storage  charges  of  carrying  it,  etc.  ? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  121 

Mr.  Weiser.  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  farmers  are  being   benefited  against  their  will? 
Commissioner  Lane.  Is  it  on  that  account,  Mr.  Bunn,  that  the 
railroad  does  not  move  the  wheat? 
Mr.  BuxN.  No,  sir. 
(Witness  was  excused.) 

I.  H.  Harris,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  was  examined, 
and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Harris,  you  reside  at  Bathgate,  N.  Dak.? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  in  the  grain  business  at  that  point? 

Mr.  IIakkis.  Grain  and  coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  own  grain  elevators? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many? 

Mr.  Harris.  Two  at  Bathgate. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  your  elevators  been  filled  at  all  this  year? 

Mr.  Harris.  They  have  been  filled  since  the  first  of  October,  prac- 
tically— that  is,  most  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  difficulty  getting  cars? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  any  grain  on  the  ground? 

Mr.  Harris.  No,  sir;  I  found  it  was  a  losing  game  to  put  grain  on 
the  ground,  and  that  one  of  the  elevators  I  bought  was  ownea  by  pri- 
vate parties,  and  they  lost  it  by  putting  grain  on  the  ground. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  consider  that  a  losing  proposition  for  the  man 
that  puts  grain  on  the  ground? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  could  have  bought  grain  and  put  it  on  the 
ground  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  We  could. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  there  been  a  market  at  your  station  all  the  year? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  have  been  other  elevators  buying  it? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  got  blocked  before  the  rest  of  them  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  did,  practically,  yes.  I  was  not  entirely  filled,  but 
you  have  different  grades  of  grain,  and  you  can  not  put  number  one 
and  rejected  wheat  together;  some  bins  were  empty  and  some  were 
filled. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  had  how  many  cars  this  year? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  have  had  18  cars  for  the  two  elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  how  many  you  had  last  year  for  the 
same  period? 

Mr.  Harris.  Well,  we  had  a  partial  failure,  we  had  last  year.  I  did 
not  look  it  up  to  see  the  record  last  vear. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  tried  to  get  more  cars  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  have  tried  every  source  that  I  could  think  of. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  railroad  are  you  on,  Great  Northern  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  written  the  officials  of  the  road? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  State  railroad  commissioners? 


122  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Harris.  I  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  get  cars  more  freely  after  writing? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  anyone  in  your  town  been  better  able  to  get  cars 
than  you  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes;  the  mill.  The  mill  has  had  at  least  four  cars  to 
my  one. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  mill  is  kept  running? 

Mr.  Harris.  Is  kept  running  night  and  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  noticed  empty  cars  waiting  for  loading  at 
times  when  you  could  not  get  them  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  try  to  get  them? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir;  a  car  set  one  week  right  in  front  of  my  eleva- 
tor empty  and  they  would  not  let  me  have  it.  They  said  it  was  not 
my  turn. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  car  set  there  one  week? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  are  you  from  Duluth  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  About  380  miles,  I  should  say,  or  370  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  round  trip  would  be  740  miles,  or  about  4  miles 
an  hour  would  have  taken  that  car  to  Duluth  and  back  again  in  the 
time  you  say  it  has  stood  there? 

Mr.  Harris.  One  car  was  on  the  road  there  a  week — coming  in 
and  getting  loaded  and  getting  out,  an  80,000-pound  car. 

Mr.  Marble.  Stood  there  after  being  loaded? 

Mr.  Harris.  Stood  there  one  week  after  being  loaded  and  before 
it  was  taken  out;  or  stood  there  four  days  empty  before  they  would 
let  me  load  it;  and  I  loaded  it,  and  it  stood  there  two  or  three  days 
after  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  other  experience  with  cars  standing 
in  that  way  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  After  being  loaded? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  do  not  think  there  has  been  any  great  delay  of 
loaded  cars,  excepting  that  one. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  the  length  of  time  in  transit? 

Mr.  Harris.  Well,  I  can  not  say  that  my  cars  have  been  unusually 
long;  that  is,  probably  ten  days,  some  of  them,  but  I  usually  figure 
on  a  week  in  getting  them  to  Duluth  and  weighed. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  cars  have  gone  through  in  eight  or  ten  days? 

Mr.  Harris.  They  have,  most  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Three  hundred  and  seventy  miles. 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  on  a  branch  line,  are  you  not? 

Mr.  Harris.  It  is  now  called  a  branch  line;  it  used  to  be  the  main 
line  between  Grand  Forks  and  Winnipeg. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  wheat  from  Canada  come  past  you? 

Mr.  Harris.  It  has. 

Mr.  Marble.  Much? 

Mr.  Harris.  They  have  no  trouble  getting  cars  up  there.  I  have 
been  told  by  a  man  that  is  buying  grain  there  that  they  get  all  the 
cars  they  want. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  123 

Mr.  Marble.  In  Canada? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  you  can  not  get  the  cars  on  this  side  of  the  line? 

Mr.  Harris.  If  they  are  not  brought  in  and  loaded  at  Neche; 
could  not  get  them  because  they  wanted  them  in  Manitoba. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  there  been  construction  work  on  that  line? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir;  there  has  been  whole  train  loads  of  ties  and 
bridge  materials  and  rails  passing  our  place — train  loads  of  them 

going  up  into  Manitoba.  Tne  box  cars  are  left  empty  to  be  loaded 
ack  with  wheat. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  compare  conditions  at  competitive  and 
noncompetitive  points? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  could  not  from  personal  knowledge. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  your  experience  in  regard  to  car  supply  been 
worse  this  year  than  last  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  have  been  shipping  for  eighteen  years,  and  I  never 
saw  anything  like  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  as  many  cars  as  in  previous  years  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  have  had  37  in  one  month  in  previous  years,  and  I 
have  had  18  cars  all  told  at  the  elevator  this. year.  At  one  elevator 
they  positively  refused  to  give  me  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why? 

Mr.  Harris.  They  would  give  me  no  reason. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  in  the  coal  business  also  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  coal  situation  in  your  town? 

Mr.  Harris.  The  town  has  been  practically  out  of  coal  for  the  last 
ten  days.     I  think  it  was  ten  days  ago  that  1  sold  the  last  coal  I  had. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  more  in  transit  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  have  more  ordered,  but  I  have  no  notice  of  it  being 
shipped  yet.  The  coal  companies  tell  me  that  they  have  more 
orders  than  they  can  fill.  Some  turned  it  down,  and  others  booked 
my  orders,  saying  they  would  ship  as  soon  as  possible. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  did  you  begin  to  order  coal  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  Why,  I  filled  my  storage  bins  in  June — last  June — and 
then  I  held  that  as  a  reserve,  in  case  cars  did  not  arrive  promptlv  in 
the  fall.  Our  principal  business  is  in  September  and  October, 
when  it  begins  to  get  cold  weather,  and  at  that  time  we  sometimes, 
if  the  cars  do  not  arrive  that  we  have  ordered  begin  to  take  out 
of  storage.  Storage  is  ordinarily  held  at  our  elevators — the  JL>uluth 
Elevator  Company 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  a  supply  of  coal? 

Mr.  Harris.  They  are  out.  1  know  the  Duluth  people  filled  theirs 
early  in  the  spring,  thinking  there  was  going  to  be  a  coal  strike. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  place  is  that? 

Mr.  Harris.  Bathgate,  N.  Dak. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  can  not  be  criticised,  then,  for  not  pre- 
paring, so  far  as  you  have  storage  capacity  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  when  did  you  begin  to  order  again? 

Mr.  Harris.  Why,  the  1st  of  September,  and  in  August;  I  ordered 
coal  in  August. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Did  you  get  that  coal  ? 


124  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Harris.  I  got  that  coal  quite  promptly;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Coal  orderea  in  September  you  received? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  did. 

Commissioner  Lane.  When  did  you  cease  to  receive  coal  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  The  last  car  I  received  was  about  the  1st  of  this 
month — it  was  ordered  on  the  24th  of  October,  and  it  was  the  1st  of 
December  before  it  came  into  Bathgate. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  how  long  it  was  in  transit? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  do  not  think  it  was  over  four  days. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Cars  can  go  over  the  road  in  short  time? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  I  ask  you  as  to  the  effect  of  the  shortage  on  the 
price  of  grain  in  your  town  ? 

Mr.  I^RRis.  You  did  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  has  been  the  effect? 

Mr.  Harris.  Elevators  have  all  bought  on  a  higher  margin  than 
they  ever  did  before,  since  I  have  seen  in  the  grain  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  bought  on  a  wider  margin? 

Mr.  Harris.  I  have.  I  wish  to  say  we  have  bought  on  a  6-cent 
margin  part  of  the  time,  and  then  on  a  2-cent  margin  early  in  the 
month,  which  was  about  our  usual  margin,  until  we  found  that  the 
car  situation  was  bad.  I  had  wheat  sold  for  November,  and  I  had 
to  buy  wheat  at  Duluth  the  1st  of  December  to  fill  the  obligation. 
Those  things,  with  insurance,  interest  on  the  money — all  have  to  be 
taken  into  consideration,  so  we  have  to  borrow  on  a  larger  margin. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  was  that  margin  last  year  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  About  2  cents. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  This  year? 

Mr.  Harris.  Five  or  6  cents. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  farmers  get  that  much  less  for  their  grain? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  the  farmers  want  to  sell  their  grain? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  find  them  offering  it — anxious  to  sell  it? 

Mr.  Harris.  Yes,  sir;  but  the  whole  town  has  not  been  blocked. 
The  mill  takes  grain  at  all  times  and  there  is  one  large  elevator  there 
with  100,000  bushels  capacity  that  has  not  been  filled.  The  others 
have  been  filled. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Has  this  affected  generally  the  conditions 
in  trade  in  your  community  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  Well,  sir,  I  can  not  say  that  it  has,  because  the  farmers 
could  sell  and  get  their  money  whenever  they  brought  their  grain  in, 
so,  far  this  falH  There  are  seven  elevators  there  and  a  mill.  This 
makes  quite  a  large  storage  capacity,  and  they  have  been  able  to  sell. 
If  they  could  not  sell  at  one  house,  they  go  to  the  other. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  So  that  the  general  effect  is  simph"  differ- 
ence in  price  ? 

Mr.  Harris.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  all. 

(Witness  was  excused.) 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  125 

Charles  D.  McCanna,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  was 
examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  name  is  Charles  McCanna? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  do  you  reside? 

Mr.  McCanna.  At  McCanna,  N.  Dak. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  business? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Farming. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  engaged  in  the  grain  business  also? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Just  famung. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  ship  your  own  grain? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Wh^',  we  ship  when  we  can. 

Mr.  Marble,  You  ship  it  when  you  can? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Rather  than  sell  to  elevators? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Wliat  has  been  your  experience  this  year  in  getting 
cars? 

Mr.  McCanna.  We  could  not  get  them.  We  got  one  car  ourselves 
this  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  did  you  try  to  get? 

Mr.  McCanna.  We  had  a  standing  order  for  two  cars  a  day  for 
three  weeks.     We  got  one  car  in  that  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  raise  grain,  yourself,  sufficient  to  justify  that  sort 
of  an  order? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  why  you  did  not  get  them? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Only  they  did  not  have  them — that  is  the  only 
excuse  they  gave. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  elevators  in  your  town  got  plenty  of  cars? 

Mr.  McCanna.  No,  sir;  they  have  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  elevators  are  there? 

Mr.  McCanna.  There  are  two  elevators  that  are  operating  al  the 
present  time — three  elevators  there,  but  one  is  not  running. 

Mr.  Marble.  One  is  closed  down  ? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  been  full  of  grain? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Blocked? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Blocked  most  all  the  fall.   . 

Mr.  Marble.  There  has  been  no  market  at  your  town? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Practically  none.  They  were  blocked  up  to  the 
first  two  or  three  weeks  in  September,  and  since  then,  once  or  twice, 
they  have  been  able  to  carry  small  amounts,  but  it  has  been  closed 
most  of  the  fall — about  two-thirds  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  has  been  the  effect  on  the  grain  market  at  your 
town  ? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Well,  it  is  perhaps  knocked  out  about  a  cent — 
between  a  cent  and  2  cents — lower. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  neighbors  had  the  same  experience  as  you  get- 
ting cars? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Well,  the  most  of  them  shipped  through  the  eleva- 
tors, but  they  can  not  get  them  at  the  elevators  there. 


126  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Farmers  wanting  to  sell  grain  can  not  find  any 
market  ? 

Mr.  McCanna,  Had  to  store  their  grain  in  granaries.  Have  had  a 
certain  amount  in  elevators,  but  not  nearly  sufficient.  They  have 
had  to  §tore  considerable. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  desire  to  sell? 

Mr.  McCanna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  about  the  coal  situation  in  your  town  ? 

Mr.  McCanna.  The  coal  situation  has  not  been  so  bad  there.  We 
got  a  car  of  coal  the  day  I  left  there,  but  up  to  that  time,  for  three  or 
four  days,  they  have  been  without  coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  a  coal  dealer? 

Mr.  McCanna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  ship  your  own  coal  ? 

Mr.  McCanna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  railroad  are  you  on  ? 

Mr.  McCanna.  The  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  not  a  competitive  point? 

Mr.  McCanna.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  there  competitive  points  near  you? 

Mr.  McCanna.  No;  there  are  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

F.  H.  Dickinson,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  was  exam- 
ined and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  name  is  what? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  F.  H.  Dickinson. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  at  Ayre,  N.  Dak.  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  business,  Mr.  Dickinson? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Farming,  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Farming? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Principally;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  in  the  grain-buying  business  at  all? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  I  have  been,  in  previous  years,  but  I  am  not 
doing  an}^  of  it  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  ship  your  own  grain? 

Mr.  Dickinson.   Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  experience  have  you  had  this  year  in  getting 
cars? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Well,  I  have  been  unable  to  get  any  at  all  very 
recently.     In  the  last  ten  days  we  have  been  getting  some  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Getting  enough  the  last  ten  days? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Yes,  sir;  all  we  could  fill  on  account  of  the  bad 
weather — roads  are  very  bad  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Considerable  snow  up  there? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Previously,  before  the  storm,  you  could  not  get  cars? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  No,  not  until  about  ten  dajs  ago.  I  asked  for 
one  car  early  in  the  season,  then  from  that  up  until  within  ten  days 
ago  we  had  been  unable  to  get  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Had  none  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  No,  sir;  none  at  all. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  127 

Mr.  Marble.  What  road  are  you  on? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  The  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  did  you  try  to  get? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Well,  I  had  an  ortler  in  for  cars  all  the  while.  You 
mean  how  many  cars  we  could  have  used  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes;  how  many  did  you  need ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Well,  if  I  were  to  have  shipped  all  the  grain  that 
I  raised,  I  would  have  shipped  about  18,000  bushels  of  grain. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  wanted  to  ship  it  all  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Yes;  that  is,  I  would  have  some  left,  but,  of 
course,  I  mean  that  is  what  I  would  have  shipped  if  I  could  have  got 
cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  had  shipped  about  1 ,000  bushels  up  until  the 
time  ten  daj's  ago  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  I  shipped  about  1,200  bushels. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  there  elevators  at  your  point  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  been  buying  grain  all  season  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Well,  they  have  been  in  the  market  to  buy,  but 
tliey  have  been  filled  up. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  there  has  not  been  any  market,  or  have  they 
been  buying  and  putting  on  the  ground  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  No;  have  not  been  putting  anv  on  the  ground 
there.  I  have  got  the  data  here.  From  the  23d  day  of  September 
to  the  24th  day  of  October  the  elevators  told  me  there  they  did  not 
have  any  cars  and  they  were  not  taking  any  grain;  that  is,  a  lai^e 
portion  of  that  time  they  were  filled  up — their  capacity  was  full,  and 
they  were  unable  to  ship  on  account  of  no  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  what  the  effect  on  the  price  in  your 
town  has  been? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  I  do  not  know  as  I  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  not  been  selling  to  elevators  then  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  I  have  sold  some,  but  very  little;  my  grain  has 
been — 1  built  a  number  of  granaries  and  bins.  I  have  now  about 
5,000  bushels — 4,500  bushels  up  in  open  bins;  but  we  are  commencing 
to  draw  out  of  that  now  to  fill  the  cars,  as  fast  as  we  can  get  them. 
The  roads  are  so  bad  we  could  make  very  little  process  now.  I  did 
not  sell  to  elevators.  I  do  not  usually  sefl  much  grain  to  the  elevators 
if  we  can  ship  it,  but  this  season  I  could  not  ship  it,  and  while  I  may 
have  possibly  to  put  more  in  the  elevator  this  year,  it  was  because  I 
could  not  get  cars  to  ship  the  grain  out;  and  I  have  no  doubt  but 
what  it  affected  the  price,  and  1  thought  it  was  policy  to  make  bins, 
and  I  have  not  only  built  two  pretty  good-sizea  granaries  but  have 
built  a  number  of  bins  to  store  grain  in. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  would  have  shipped  it  if  you  had  had  the  cars? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  a  coal  dealer? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  coal  situation  at  your  town? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  The  coal  situation  is  pretty  bad.  We  have  not 
had  any  coal  for  about  four  weeks  and  there  was  not  a  ton  of  coal  in 
the  town  when  I  left  there,  and  1  had  a  long  talk  with  one  of  the 
dealers  there  and  he  was  pretty  indignant  over  it — had  quite  a  con- 
versation with  him.     I  can  tell  you  that,  if  you  want  to  hear  it. 


128  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tell  us  what  that  was — what  that  statement  was? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  I  knew  I  was  coming  down  here.  It  was  the 
Fanners'  Elevator  agent  that  told  me  this.  It  seems  to  me  that  he 
put  in  an  application  for  a  site  to  build  a  coal  shed  on — to  the  railroad 
company — and  the  matter  was  delayed.  He  wrote  several  times 
about  it,  but  never  got  any  answer,  and  the  last  time  he  tolls  me  he 
wrote  he  urged  them  to  give  him  a  site,  so  that  he  could  get  up  a  shed 
and  get  it  filled  with  coal,  and  he  never  got  any  reply  from  them. 
He  had  ordered  coal  then,  and  he  got  one  car  on  the  21st  day  of 
October,  and  at  that  time  he  had  two  or  three  cars  ordered,  but  they 
have  not  arrived  yet,  and  then,  I  think,  day  before  yesterday,  or  just 
before  that,  he  got  word  from  the  company  that  they  were  doing  all 
they  could  to  hurry  this  site.  It  was  the  division  superintendent 
who  was  talking — he  was  doing  all  he  could  to  hurry  this  matter  of  a 
site  there  to  be  settled,  so  that  they  could  put  up  their  coal  shed;  but 
he  has  only  had  this  coal  that  arrived  on  the  21st  of  October.  He 
had  two  cars  ordered  at  that  time,  but  they  have  not  arrived  yet. 

Mr.  Marble.  Any  suffering  in  your  place  for  want  of  coal  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Why,  I  do  not  think  there  has  been  any  suffering 
yet,  but  if  we  do  not  get  some  coal  soon  there  is  liable  to  be  suffering 
soon. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  coal  dealer  tried  to  get  a  site  for  a  coal  room 

Mr.  Dickinson.  He  has  not  got  that  yet. 

Mr.  Marble.  He  does  not  need  it  very  badly  now? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  Well,  he  has  been  shy  of  coal  since  the  middle  of 
November.  He  sold  the  balance  of  coal  out.  I  have  had  three  or 
four  different  farmers  come  to  me — I  have  two  lots  of  coal — standing 
in  the  back — I  have  been  using  that.  I  have  had  four  diiferent 
farmers  come  to  me  to  buy  that  coal.  I  told  them  when  they  got  to 
freezing  to  come  and  get  some  of  it.  I  do  not  think  there  is  any  suf- 
fering yet.  Most  of  our  farmers  lay  in  their  supply  of  fuel  early  in 
the  winter  and  have  had  orders  in  to  take  out  their  coal,  but  it  has 
not  arrived.  I  got  mine  pretty  early,  and  a  number  of  others  did  also. 
I  have  not  heard  of  any  case  where  they  have  suffered.  They  are 
beginning  to  get  a  little  anxious. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  these  cars  have  been  in  transit 
or  whether  they  have  not  been  shipped  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  I  do  not  know  about  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  anything  you  wish  to  offer? 

Mr.  Dickinson.  I  do  not  think  there  is. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  have  received  some  more  telegrams.  One 
is  from  Danville,  N.  Dak.,  which  reads: 

Interstate  Commerce  Commission,  Minneapolis,  Minn.: 

Dealers  have  had  no  coal  for  three  weeks.  Twelve  tons  railway  coal  have  been 
parceled  out  in  two  and  five  hundred  pound  lots.  Thirty  tons  railway  coal  now  in 
cars.  Permission  to  use  it  if  necessary.  Some  suffering.  Only  those  absolutely 
without  fuel  furnished  with  railway  coal.  In  case  of  blizzard  continuing  several  days, 
there  will  be  intense  suffering.  Seventy-five  per  cent  of  the  people  have  only  enough 
to  last  five  or  six  days. 

Ed.  T.  Pierson. 

The  telegram  does  not  say  that  permission  has  been  given,  but  I 
presume  that  is  the  meaning  of  it.     I  shall  telegraph  to  Mr.  Pierson, 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  129 

who  sends  this  telegram,  notifying  hini  of  the  promise  of  the  railroad 
company  to  reheve  that  situation. 

I  also  have  a  telegram  from ,  N.  Dak.,  as  follows: 

Interstate  Tommerce  Commission,  Minneapolis,  Minn.: 

Three  cars  of  soft  coal;  one  hard  in  store.  I.«st  four  days.  Railway  has  66  tons  in 
store.     No  suffering  reported.     This  coal  just  received. 

F.  R.  Cruden. 

And  another  dated  Hanna,  N.  Dak. 

December  18,  1906. 
Interstate  Commerce  Commission,  Minneapolis,  Minn.: 

No  coal  in  store  here  by  dealers.  No  railroad  coal  in  store  in  hin.s  or  cars.  Some 
families  without  fuel.  Will  be  great  deal  suffering  if  we  do  not  get  relief  within  few 
days. 

W.  V.  Hall,  Postmaster. 

Cando,  N.  Dak.,  December  18,  J90(i. 
Interstate  Commerce  Commission,  Minneapolis,  Mijin.: 

No  coal  in  store.  General  supplv  will  last  few  days.  One  car  yesterday — distrib- 
uted among  over  eighty  families.  I'wenty  tons  railway  coal.  No  coal  in  store  in  cars. 
Numbers  in  town  and  country  burning  wood. 

C.  B.  McMillan. 


Hillsboro,  N.  Dak.,  December  17,  1906. 
Interstate  Commerce  Commission,  Minneapolis,  Minn.: 

One  hundred  and  seventy-five  tons  hard  coal.  Eighty  soft  coal  here.  Supply  will 
only  last  two  weeks.  No  coal  stored  in  cars.  Estimate  230  tons  railway  coal  here. 
No  suffering  here  or  surrounding  country  yet. 

K.  R.  Carley. 


Harvey,  N.  Dak.,  December  18,  1906. 
Interstate  Commerce  Commission,  Minneapolis,  Minn.: 

There  is  no  coal  in  store  in  this  city.  Five  cars  received  to-tlay.  Will  be  gone  in 
twenty-four  hours,  consumers.     No  prospect  for  more  to-morrow. 

Harvey  Farmers  Co-Op.  Assn. 

A.  E,  EoELAND,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  was  exam- 
ined and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  WTiat  is  your  name? 

Mr.  Egeland.  A.  E.  P^geland. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  reside  at  Bisbee,  N.  Dak.  ? 

Mr,  Egeland.  Yes.  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  railroad  is  that  ( 

Mr.  Egeland.  It  is  at  the  intersection  of  the  Great  Northern  and 
the  Soo  Line. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  at  a  competitive  point  9 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  business? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Banker. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  is  your  bank  located? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Bisbee. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  interested  in  other  banks  as  well  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  interested  in  the  grain  businesvS,  alsoi 

Mr.  Egeland.  No,  sir. 

S.  Doe.  333, 5I)-2 ^9 


130  CAR   SHOBTA6E. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  plenty  of  cars  at  Bisbee  this  year? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Enough  to  keep  the  elevators  open.  Not  enough 
to  supply  the  demands  of  the  farmers  and  the  independent  shippers. 

Mr.  ALvrble.  Have  the  farmers  and  independent  shippers  had  to 
go  without,  then? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  the  elevators  have  been  kept  open? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  what  effect  the  shortage  has  had  upon 
the  market? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Why,  the  prices  have  been  about  4  cents  lower  at 
Bisbee  than  they  should  have  been  under  ordinaiy  circumstances. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  4  cents  lower  than  they  would  have  been  if 
there  had  been  transportation  facilities? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  farmers  lost  that? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  near-by  noncompetitive  points  on  these 
roads,  have  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  has  been  the  car  situation  at  the  noncompet- 
itive points  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  They  have  had  no  cars,  practically. 

Mr.  Marble.  Worse  than  at  Bisbee? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  do  you  speak  of  both  these  railroads  when 
you  say  that  ? 

Mr.  Egelant).  Whj',  \es,  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  Both  of  them  have  served  Bisbee  better  than  the 
noncompetitive  points? 

Mr.  Egelant).  On  either  line  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes; 

Mr.  Egeland.  No,  I  would  not  say  that.  Bisbee  has  an  unusually 
large  elevator  capacity,  which  may  in  some  measure  account  for  the 
fact  that  they  have  been  able  to  buy  grain,  whereas  there  are  points 
that  have  only  one  elevator,  that  have  not  been  able  to  get  the  cars 
they  need. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think,  so  far  as  car  shortage  is  concerned,  they 
have  all  been  treated  alike? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Practically  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  made  loans  on  wheat,  have  you  not? 

Mr.  Egelant).  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  More  than  usual? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Why,  no.  Less  than  usual,  because  I  have  found 
that  my  loans  on  wheat  have  usually  been  through  men  that  wanted 
to  ship,  and  thev  would  have  a  carload  or  two  to  ship  at  a  time  and 
we  would  get  the  bills  of  lading,  and  that  would  cancel  our  loan; 
but  this  year,  on  accoimt  of  the  car  shortage,  they  could  not  make 
independent  shipments,  and  for  that  reason  we  felt  they  would  be 
haulmg  their  wheat  and  selling  a  load  here  and  there  and  we  did  not 
care  to  make  that  kind  of  loans;  and  we  would  make  loans  on  other 
securities  rather  than  make  it  on  the  wheat. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  consider  wheat  not  as  good  security  this  year 
as  when  farmers  could  get  cars  ? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  131 

Mr.  EoELAND.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  declined  to  loan  money  to  fanners  on  wheat? 

Mr.  Egei^vxd.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  loaned  on  wheat  at  noncompetitive  points! 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes;  I  have  loaned  on  storage  tickets. 

Mr.  Marble.  Storage  tickets? 

Mr.  Egeland.  We  always  loan  on  storage  tickets. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  Durum  wheat? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir;  and  any  grain  in  storage. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  vou  yourself  tried  to  get  cars  to  ship  out  wheat 
which  had  l>een  hvpothecated  to  you? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes;  in  one  instance. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tell  us  about  that  effort  that  you  made. 

Mr.  Egeland.  A  fanner  plac<»d  wheat  in  store  at  a  to\\Ti  about  .3 
miles  north  of  Bisl)ee,  on  the  Great  Northern.  This  was  on  the  22d 
or  24th  of  September.  He  immediately  placed  an  order  for  a  car, 
so  that  he  could  ship  it.  After  a  while,  wlien  he  saw  that  he  did  riot 
get  any  cars,  he  came  to  me  and  borrowed  some  money  and  put  the 
storage  ticket  up  as  collateral,  and  after  about  six  weeks,  I  think, 
from  the  time  when  he  had  stored  his  wheat  he  came  again  and  a.skecl 
me  to  assist  him  to  get  a  car.  I  took  the  stor^e  ticket  and  claimed 
the  wheat  as  mine  and  tried  to  get  the  cars.  That  is  a  little  over  a 
month  ago.  I  have  not  got  any  yet.  Last  Saturday  before  1  left  I 
telephoned  to  the  elevator  to  sell  that  wheat,  as  wo  did  not  care  to 
pay  storage  on  it  any  longer,  as  there  was  no  prospect  of  getting  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  resulted  in  a  loss  to  the  farmer  in  the  sale  of 
that  wheat,  did  it  not? 

Mr.  Egeland.  It  will  result  in  a  loss  of  about  10  cents  a  bushel 
in  this  particular  instance. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  well  as  the  interest  charged  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  contemplated  hauling  that  into  Bisbee  in 
wagons  at  one  time? 

Mr.  Egeland.  I  did;  I  threatened  that,  if  they  could  not  get  a 
car  at  the  point  of  storage,  I  would  haul  it  to  Bisoee,  about  3  miles, 
and  get  a  car  from  the  Soo. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  you  could  do  that? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  know  that  you  could  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  did  you  not  do  it? 

Mr.  Egeland.  The  snowstorms  and  the  roads  got  so  bad  that  it 
was  practically  impossible  to  haul  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  farmers  sold  wheat  to  line  elevator  companies 
here  who  otherwise  would  have  shipped  if  they  could  get  cars? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  heard  talk  of  that  sort? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Farmers  resented  it? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  did  not  want  to  sell  to  line  elevators? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Preferred  to  ship. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  they  have  had  to  sell  to  line  companies? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 


132  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble,  The  last  thirty  days  you  have  had  a  snowstorm? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Practically,  we  have  had  a  continual  blizzard  for 
thirty  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  has  the  effect  been  generally,  on  business  con- 
ditions, of  this  car  service  failure,  as  you  see  them  at  your  bank  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  No  collections  have  been  made,  no  sales  to  mer- 
chants to  speak  of,  as  they  should  be  this  time  of  the  year,  on  account 
of  farmers  having  no  money.  The  merchants  can  not  collect,  the 
machinery  dealers  can  not  collect,  the  machinery  dealers  borrow 
money,  and  the  farmers  borrow  money.  We  have  had  an  exceptional 
call  for  loans  and  funds.  Deposits  are  going  down,  whereas  the 
opposite  should  be  the  fact  at  tnis  time  of  the  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Mr,  Bright,  You  do  not  mean  to  say  that  all  the  farmers  out  there 
prefer  to  ship  in  their  grain,  or  desire  to  ship  it  in,  independendy? 

Mr,  Egeland,  Yes;  I  think  that  anyone  who  has  grain  enough  to 
make  a  carload  or  two  cars, 

Mr.  Bright,  I  know;  but  the  great  majority  of  farmers  prefer  to 
haul  grain  and  sell  it  to  the  elevators, 

Mr,  Egeland,  Not  if  they  can  get  the  cars  themselves, 

Mr,  Bright,  You  do  not  know  that,  do  you  ? 

Mr,  Egeland,  I  have  heard  a  great  deal  of  talk  to  that  effect, 

Mr,  Marble,  They  sometimes  start  farmers'  elevators,  do  they  not? 

Mr,  Egeland,  There  is  some  talk  of  that  at  the  present  time, 

Mr,  Marble,  Even  with  that  they  prefer  to  ship  a  good  many  cars 
themselves  ? 

Mr,  Egeland.  I  do  not  know  that  they  would.  Still  some  would 
who  live  close  to  hand  and  who  can  deliver  wheat  from  the  machine 
direct  to  the  cars. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  about  what  the  total  pro- 
duction of  grain  was  in  your  county  this  year  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  I  do  not. 

Commissioner  Harlan,  What  was  it  last  year? 

Mr.  Egeland.  The  number  of  bushels? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Egeland.  I  could  not  say  as  to  the  number  of  bushels,  but  the 
crop  last  year,  I  think,  was  about  20  bushels  to  the  acre — an  average 
crop  last  year. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  do  not  know,  then,  what  the  aggre- 
gate was? 

Mr.  Egeland,  No;  I  could  not  say. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

R.  M.  ViGNESS,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  was  exam- 
ined and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble,  You  reside  at  Grafton,  N.  Dak.  ? 

Mr,  ViGNESS,  Yes,  sir, 

Mr,  Marble,  What  is  your  business? 

Mr  ViGNESS.  At  the  present  time,  county  treasurer;  my  business 
has  been  a  farmer, 

Mr,  Marble,  Are  you  familiar  with  the  shipping  situation  at 
your  point? 

Mr.  ViGNESS,  To  a  certain  extent;  yes. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  133 

Mr,  Marble.  Have  you  had  plenty  of  cars  this  year? 

Mr.  ViGNESs.  No,  sir;  the  car  shortage  is  a  very  serious  question 
with  us  over  in  Grafton. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  railroad  are  you  on? 

Mr.  ViGNESs.  The  Great  Northern  and  the  Union  Pacific. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  competitive  point,  then? 

Mr.  ViGNESs.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  your  elevators  been  filled  with  wheat  this  vear? 

Mr.  ViONESs.  Yes;  they  have  been  comparatively  so,  altnough 
the  mill  is  the  worst  off.  The  mill  can  not  get  cars  to  ship  away  the 
flour.  It  has  got  at  present  17  orders — ^for  17  carloads — of  flour; 
that  is  foi|Bmall  towns  out  around  in  the  Northwest  there. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  the  mill  closed  down  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESs.  Yes;  closed  down  Saturday  when  I  left. 

Mr.  Marble.  Because  they  can  not  get  cars  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Any  of  the  elevators  closed  down  ? 

Mr.  ViONESS.  No;  the  elevators  have  been  kept  going  pretty  well. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  farmers  had  trouble  in  getting  cars  to  ship 
their  grain  ? 

Mr.  VioNESS.  Oh,  yes;  farmers  can  not  get  hardly  any  cars  at  all. 
I  was  trying  to  get  some  myself,  but  could  not  get  any.  Some  have 
been  fortunate  enough  to  get  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  could  not  get  any? 

Mr.  ViGNEss.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  did  you  do  with  yoiu*  grain  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESs.  Hauled  into  a  granary. 

Mr.  Marble.  Stored  it? 

Mr.  ViGNEss.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  ship  your  grain  from  Grafton? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  I  have  shipped  it,  out  for  the  last  two  years  I  have 
not  been  able  to  get  cars;  out  usually  before  I  have  shipped  it,  until 
the  last  two  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  did  you  ship  it  this  year? 

Mr.  ViGNESs.  No;  I  sold  it  to  tne  elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  have  shipped  it  if  you  had  had  cars  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  I  would  have  shipped  it  from  the  macliine.  I  do  not 
generally  do  that,  but  this  year  I  could  get  no  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  grain  do  you  raise? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  This  year  we  had  a  light  crop,  and  I  only  have  a  half 
section  of  land  myself. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  what  difference  it  makes  to  you  in  the 
price? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  It  made  a  difference  of  4  or  5  cents. 

Mr.  Marble.  Other  farmers  had  the  same  experience? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  elevators  do  not  get  cars  enough,  or  do  they? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  No;  they  do  not,  and  those  that  they  have  loaded 
have  not  been  moved.  There  were  three  cars  on  the  track  Saturday 
that  were  loaded  and  have  been  there  since  about  the  4th  of  December. 

Mr.  Marble.  Loaded  on  the  4th  of  December  and  not  moved  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESs.  One  on  the  Northern  Pacific  and  two  on  the  Great 
Northern. 


134  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  made  a  memorandum  of  any  other 
instances  of  that  sort  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  No ;  I  can  give  you  the  number  of  these  cars  on  the 
track,  those  three,  if  vou  want  them.  Mr.  Anderson,  he  is — he  is  the 
local  buyer  who  loaded  one  car;  his  car  number  is  4274,  December 
4;  and  this  is  still  at  Grafton. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  road  on  that  car? 

Mr,  ViGNESS.  Great  Northern. 

Northern  Pacific  car  3837,  December  6;  still  in  Grafton.  Then 
he  shipped  one  to  St.  Cloud  November  3,  and  he  got  returns  Decem- 
ber 1.  There  have  been  quite  a  number  a  long  time  on  the  road 
always. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  a  general  complaint  of  slowness  of  movement  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Yes;  it  is,  as  a  rule,  very  slow.  He  says  he  would  have 
lost.  He  said  he  had  a  big  margin,  but  he  just  about  lost  it.  He  had 
to  borrow  money  in  order  to  keep  up  his  trade;  pay  for  his  wheat. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  the  buyer  did  not  really  make  this  large 
margin,  but  lost  it  because  of  the  bad  condition  he  met  with  in  dis- 
posing of  the  wheat  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan,  What  was  his  margin? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Between  5  and  6  cents.  That  has  been  the  general 
rule  this  fall. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  bushels  of  wheat  had  he 
bought  under  that  margin? 

A&.  ViGNESS.  I  could  not  say  that;  I  did  not  inquire  into  it,  and  I 
could  not  give  a  definite  answer  as  to  that. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  He  has  lost  his  margin? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Yes,  sir;  in  some  instances. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  coal  situation  in  your  town,  sir? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  There  were  two  weeks  we  did  not  have  any  coal  at 
all.  The  county  had  a  little.  One  of  the  lumber  yards  had  a  car- 
load that  belonged  to  the  county,  and  they  helped  them  out ;  but  we 
got  two  cars  Friday  before  I  left.  That  is  all  the  coal  they  have  now 
in  the  yard. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  would  two  cars  last? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  They  won't  last  long.  Ours  is  quite  a  thickly 
settled  country  and  the  inhabitants  of  the  town  number  2,500. 

Mr.  Marble.  Two  cars  of  coal  won't  reach  very  far? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  they  all  burn  coal? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Yes;  pretty  much — probably  a  half  bum  wood,  but 
not  many. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  talked  with  your  coal  deajers? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  I  have  been  trying  to  get  coal,  myself,  for  the  church 
down  there;  but  I  could  not  get  soft  coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  Could  not  get  coal  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  the  dealers  tell  you  they  had  coal  on  the  road  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  They  told  me  they  had  orders  for  a  month  to  three 
weeks — some  of  them  had  orders  out. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  loiow  whether  it  has  been  shipped  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  They  did  not  know.     Some  of  them — the  St.  Law- 


CAK   SHORTAGE.  135 

rence  Lumber  Company  was  expecting  a  car — had  received  the  bill  it 
was  shipped,  but  they  nad  not  received  the  car. 

Conmiissioner  HabLan.  Have  the  schools  in  your  county  had 
enough  coal? 

Mr.  ViGNESs.  Yes;  the  school  has  been  very  fortunate — that  is, 
the  city  school.     I  do  not  know  how  it  is  with  the  county  schools. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  The  schools  have  closed  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESs.  No;  I  have  not  heard  of  any  schools  in  the  county 
that  have  closed  on  account  of  fuel. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  your  know  what  the  total  production 
of  grain  in  your  county  was  last  year? 

Mr.  ViGNESs.  No,  sir;  I  could  not  tell  vou  that.  The  Egert  Mill- 
ing Company  have  their  elevator  in  Walhalla.  Tliey  had  only  two 
cars  all  fall,  and  the  elevator  has  been  closed  since  the  middle  of 
October. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  the  farmers  in  your  countrj'  all  sell  their  wheat  in 
the  fall,  or  carry  it  through  ? 

Mr.  ViGNEss.  Well,  pretty  much,  especially  this  fall,  on  account  of 
there  being  a  small  crop  and  low  price,  an^  their  wanting  to  meet 
their  expense — why,  they  had  to  sell  more  or  less  to  get  along. 

Mr.  BuNN.  In  previous  years  have  they  been  selling  all  theu*  wheat 
in  the  fall? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Well,  not  all;  about  half  of  it,  or  so,  they  have  sold 
in  the  fall. 

Mr.  BuNN.  And  what  did  they  do  with  the  other  half? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  They  generally  put  it  in  their  granaries. 

Mr.  BuNN.  And  carry  it  over  until  spring? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  more  or  fewer  cars  been  shipped  from  your 
town  this  year  than  in  previous  years  ? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Fewer,  I  guess.  We  did  not  have  as  large  a  crop 
as  last. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  not  so  many  have  been  shipped  as  the  farmers 
wanted  to  ship? 

Mr.  ViGNESS.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  will  now  take  an  aiijoumment  until  2 
o'clock  p.  m.  to-day. 

(Thereupon,  at  12.30  p.  m.,  the  Commission  adjourned.) 

AFTER   RECESS. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Are  you  ready  to  proceed,  Mr.  Marble? 

Mr.  \L\RBLE.  Yes,  sir.  I  will  call  Mr.  Egeland  again.  There  is  a 
question  I  wish  to  ask  him. 

A.  Egeland,  recalled. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Egeland,  is  your  town  on  a  branch  line  that 
extends  into  Canada? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  wheat  from  Canada  carried  over  that  road? 

Mr.  Egeland.  That  is  what  I  understand. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  seen  cars,  have  you? 

Mr.  Egeland.  I  have  seen  cars  with  big  red  labels  going  through 
our  town;  yes,  sir. 


136  Car  shortage. 

Mr.  Marble.  Red  labels?    Did  you  see  what  was  on  them ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  I  have  not  been  over  to  read  them,  but  have  had 
my  attention  called  to  the  cars  by  people  saying  that  there  goes  a 
car  loaded  with  Canadian  wheat;  foolc  at  the  red  label. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  the  empty  cars  are  being 
hauled  past  American  elevators  to  get  Canadian  wheat  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that.  I  have  seen  a  number 
of  trains,  more  than  usual,  going  north  over  that  line. 

Mr.  Marble.  With  empty  cars? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Some  empty  and  some  loaded.  There  has  been 
some  railway  construction  going  on  across  the  line. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  has  been  railway  construction,  and  the  cars 
have  been  brought  back  loaded  with  Canadian  wheat? 

Mr.  Egeland.  That  is  my  understanding. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  about  the  question  of  the  handling  of 
this  Canadian  wheat  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  It  has  been  reported  to  me  that  at  the  towns  of 
Hansbrough,  Sarles,  and  Hannah,  which  are  located  close  to  the 
Canadian  line,  wheat  is  being  brought  across  loaded  into  cars,  and 
taken  m  preference  to  wheat  raised  on  this  side  of  the  line. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  one  of  the  grievances  up  in  your  country? 

Mr.  Egeland.  That  is  one  of  the  grievances  up  in  this  country" 
which  I  was  asked  to  bring  before  the  Commission  if  possible  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  who  requested  you  to  do  that? 

Mr.  Egeland.  I  was  requested  by  Mr.  David  McKenna  and  a  man 
by  the  name  of  Durham,  and  also  a  man  by  the  name  of  Langdon. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those  are  farmers? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Landowners  and  elevator  men,  and  my  attention 
has  been  called  to  it  by  merchants  and  farmers  in  general.  That  is 
the  reason  why  they  can't  get  cars  on  our  line  for  their  shipments. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  that  they  have  discriminated  against  you 
in  favor  of  Canadian  wheat  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  is  no  reason  why  that  should  be,  is 
there?  What  would  be  the  object  of  the  railroad  company  in  dis- 
criminating against  your  people  in  tavor  of  Canadian  wheat  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  I  presume  the  Canadian  roads  would  take  that 
wheat  if  our  roads  did  not  get  in  ahead  of  them  and  take  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  is  competition  there  between  your 
roads  and  the  Canadian  roads? 

Mr.  Egeland.  Across  the  line,  it  would  seem  so. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  Canadian  road  comes  down  there  ? 

Mr.  Egeland.  I  think  the  Canadian  Northern  and  the  Canadian 
Pacific,  both.  I  am  not  entirely  sure  as  to  that,  but  that  is  my 
understanding.  Those  shipments  I  spoke  of  are  instances  from  St. 
John,  N.  Dak.,  and  Brandon,  Manitoba. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

M.  J.  DooLEY,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified  as 
follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  name  is  M.  J.  Dooley  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  M.  J.  Dooley ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  reside  in  St.  Paul? 


CAB  SHORTAGE. 


137 


Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  superintenclent  of  the  Minnesota  Trans- 
fer Railway  Company  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.   Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  the  name  of  ihe  concern,  is  it? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  that  railroad  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  The  Terminal  company  composed  of  ten  lines  oper- 
ating in  this  section  of  the  country  for  the  interchange  of  traffic 
between  the  lines. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  for  the  switching  of  cars? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir;  the  switching  of  cars  from  one  line  to  the 
other  principally. 

Mr.  aIarble.  And  do  you  also  transfer  goods  from  car  to  car  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  purpose  of  that  being  to  release  the  equipment  of 
the  lines  originating  the  traffic? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir. 

And  to  get  the  freight  into  the  cars  of  the  line  taking 


Mr.  Marble. 
the  traffic? 
Mr.  Dooley, 
Mr.  Marble 
Mr.  Dooley, 
Mr.  Marble, 


Yes,  sir.  • 

Do  you  transfer  freight  both  ways? 
Yes,  sir. 

How  many  cars  per  day  have  you  capacity  to  handle 
without  having  an  accumulation  or  congestion? 

Mr.  Dooley.  We  are  handling  at  the  present  time  about  twenty- 
four  to  twenty-sLX  hundred  cars,  which  is  our  capacity. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  about  up  to  your  cai)acity? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  congested  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  transfer  n-\y  irrain  from  car  to  car? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  None  at  all? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Except  one  elevator  on  our  line,  and  two  oil  mills. 

Mr.  Marble.  Two  what? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Two  oil  mills  which  handle  flax. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  you  do  handle  some  grain? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  transfer  from  car  to  car? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  store  it? 

Mr.  Dooley.  There  is  a  private  elevator — the  Northwestern  Ele- 
vator Company — located  on  our  lines,  a  private  enterprise.  They 
receive  considerable  grain  at  certain  seasons  of  the  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Supposing  grain  comes  in  a  Great  Northern  car,  if 
there  is  any  such  to  be  tranaerred  to  an  outgoing  road,  who  transfers 
that? 

Mr.  Dooley.  As  a  general  thing  the  Great  Northern  cars  run 
through  unless  they  are  in  bad  order,  and  in  case  they  are  in  bad  order 
we  make  the  transfer  ourselves. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  congested  during  this  crop  year  at 
this  terminal? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Somewhat  congested  during  the  month  of  October. 


138  CAB   SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  behind  have  you  been  in  your  work? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  At  one  time  I  think  we  had  about  300  cars  held  back 
on  the  Northern  Pacific,  about  100  on  the  Great  Northern,  and  per- 
haps the  same  number  on  the  Soo. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  vou  are  giving  the  figures  at  the  worst  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  did  that  continue  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  On  the  Northern  Pacific  possibly  two  weeks,  and  on 
the  Great  Northern  and  on  the  Soo  line  possibly  one  week, 

Mr.  Marble.  As  far  as  you  know  have  there  been  congestions  of 
grain  cars  in  your  city? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  advised  as  to  that  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  are  in  your  yards  to-day  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  I  have  not  to-day's  figures-    Yesterday  1,270. 

Mr.  Marble.  Twelve  hundred  and  seventy? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  transferred  yesterday  about  how  many? 

Mr.  Dooley.  About  2,400  cars — ^that  is,  about  2,400  cars  moved 
through  the  yards. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  how  many  of  those  did  you  transfer  the  goods 
from  car  to  car? 

Mr.  Dooley.  We  unloaded  yesterday  136  cars  of  less  than  carload 
freight  and  88  cars  of  carload  freight. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  warehouse  those  goods  that  you  transfer 
from  car  to  car  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  ^Iarble.  Do  vou  always  have  cars  of  connecting  lines  ready  to 
meet  the  car  which  is  to  be  released  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  As  a  usual  thing;  ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  find  that  feasible  and  practicable? 

Mr.  Dooley.  We  could  not  handle  it  unless  we  did. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  often  have  you  had  cars  waiting  for  connecting 
cars — cars  to  which  the  stuff  is  to  be  transferred? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Frequently. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  are  usually  waiting  now? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Last  night  there  were  122  carloads  of  carload  freight 
that  were  not  handled  yesterday,  although  we  had  from  vesterday's 
unloading — had  approximately  cars  enough  to  take  care  of  the  entire 
business. 

Mr.  Marble.  Ready? 

Mr.  Dooley.  That  would  be  ready  for  switching  to-night. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  it  during  this  present  crop  year. 

Mr.  Dooley.  Our  congestion  this  year,  or  at  least  our  car  shortage, 
has  been  more  acute  than  generally  before  for  four  or  five  years,  where 
we  have  not  had  a  car  shortage  for  handling  such  business  as  you 
speak  of. 

Mr.  Marble.  WTiat  do  you  mean  by  acute,  rather  than  general? 

Mr.  Dooley.  We  have  been  short  of  cars  for  a  specific  line,  for  a 
few  days  only. 

Mr.  Marble.  Any  line  in  particular? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Most  all  of  them  at  some  time  during  the  last  six 
weeks. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  139 

Mr.  Marble.  And  for  how  lon^r  would  you  be  short  of  cars? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Not  more  than  a  week  for  any  one  line. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  more  than  a  week  for  any  one  line^  Now,  how 
many  cars  have  you  had  waiting  at  any  time — waiting  for  cars  to 
meet  them? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  The  highest  number  of  cars  we  had  left  over  was  240. 

Mr.  Marble.  Waiting  for  cars  from  connecting  lines? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir;  and  our  own  inability  to  transfer  the  goods. 

Mr.  Marble.  Leaving  out  the  inability  to  transfer  the  goods,  how 
many  cars  have  you  had  waiting  for  cars  from  connecting  lines? 

Mr.  Dooley.  'Sot  more  than  200. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  how  long  have  they  waited — for  a  week  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Not  longer.  They  have  not  waited  longer  than  an 
entire  week,  I  would  say,  but  usually  they  transfer  the  older  loads 
first. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  considered  the  advisability  of  having  a 
warehouse  to  release  such  cars  here  and  give  quicker  service  to  the 
public? 

Mr.  Dooley.  We  have  a  storage  vard  for  the  purpose  of  releasing 
the  commodity  of  which  we  transfer  most — Pacific  coast  shingles — 
and  where  the  congestion  is  bad  we  invariably  unload  the  traffic  on 
the  ground  and  let  it  remain  there  until  such  time  as  cars  are 
plentiful. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  to  Pacific  coast  shingles — you  do  store  them  ? 

Mr,  Dooley.  As  to  Pacific  coast  shingles,  yes;  we  do  store  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  do  you  need  warehouse  facilities  for  other 
classes  of  freight  in  order  to  aid  you  to  serve  the  public  quickly? 

Mr.  PooLEY.  We  are  better  orf  without  a  warenouse;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  better  off  without  a  warehouse  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Without  a  warehouse;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  why  is  that? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Because  we  transfer  directly  from  car  to  car,  and  the 
demand  for  dars  is  such  that  it  forces  us  to  do  it  that  way  all  the 
time,  whereas  if  we  had  a  warehouse  we  would  have  to  put  it  in 
there  and  take  it  out,  and  it  would  cause  more  or  less  delay  in  that 
warehouse. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  question  of  cars  waiting  for  cars  from  connect- 
ing lines — holding  the  cars — how  great  a  lactor  is  that  m  the  car 
shortage  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Not  very  great  this  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Don't  your  railroads  have  warehouses  at  Minneapolis? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  have  those  cars  sometimes  stood?  Have  they 
not  stood  there  in  that  yard  for  a  time? 

Mr.  Dooley.  I  do  not  think  they  would. 

Mr.  Marble.  Don't  they  remain  for  a  time  at  that  point  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  advised  as  to  that? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  that  you  had  in  October  a  congestion? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Somewhat;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  a  good  many  cars  could  not  get  on  your  tracks  at 
all? 

Mr.  Dooley.  A  good  many  cars  could  not  get  on  our  tracks  at  all. 


140  CAB  SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  on  your  tracks  at  that  time  you  had  about  how 
many  cars  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  It  averaged  from  2,400  to  2,500  cars,  I  think. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  would  there  be  that  would  not  be  un- 
loaded 'i 

Mr.  Dooley.  The  merchandise  traffic  as  running,  about  200  cars  per 
day. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  were  not  unloaded? 

Mr.  Dooley.  They  were  not  unloaded. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  were  you  behmd  in  your  business  at  that 
time? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Practically  half  a  day's  business  behind. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  would  be  about  1,500  cars? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Fifteen  hundred  cars;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  your  terminal  large  enough  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  In  what  way  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  In  the  matter  of  the  facilities  of  the  sort  you  testified 
you  think  that  would  be  necessary.     Have  you  enough  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  We  are  getting  more  as  fast  as  we  can. 

Mr.  Marble.  Getting  more? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  are  being  increased  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  By  next  year  you  think  that  such  delays  as  you  have 
testified  to  can  be  avoided? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Not  if  the  business  mcreases  proportionately,  as  it 
did  last  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  did  it  mcrease  last  year  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Practically  30  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  business  on  through  carL  increased  30  per  cent  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  also  business — cars  to  be  transferred? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Both  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Both. 

M  Marble.  It  is  only  through  trains  you  deal  with?  You  do 
not  'leal  with  Minneapolis  and  St.  Paul? 

Mr.  Dooley.  We  have  nothing  to  do  with  Minneapolis  and  St. 
Paul. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  nothing  to  do  with  them  at  all? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  is  your  road  managed?  By  the  com- 
panies who  own  stock  in  it?    . 

Mr.  DtK)LEY.  Yes,  sir;  by  each  companv  as  a  member  of  the  board 
of  directors.     They  have  a  president  besides. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  they  select  the  management  ?  The  man- 
agement of  the  concern  is  independent  of  any  of  the  railroad  com- 
panies? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane*.  You  operate  that,  in  a  sense,  then,  as  a  sepa- 
rate system? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

C    '      issioner  Lane.  What  would  vou  sav  a  reasonable  time  would 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  141 

be  in  transferring  a  train,  we  will  say,  that  is  made  up  of  twenty  cars 
to  be  distributed  between  five  different  roads  at  a  junction  point? 
What  time  ought  it  take  to  distribute  and  divide  up  that  train? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  That  is,  have  you  in  mind  the  going  to  a  connecting 
line? 

Commissioner  I^ne.  Going  to  connecting  lines. 

Mr.  DooLEY.  If  all  the  cars  were  through,  without  transfer,  and 
not  in  bad  order,  twenty-four  hours  would  be  reasonable. 

Commissioner  Lane.  If  there  is  a  town  up  in  North  Dakota  250 
miles  from  Duluth,  and  you  take  that,  and  the  ordinary  time  of  run- 
ning at  the  rate  of  speed  of  10  miles  an  hour  would  lu'  twenty-five 
hours  on  a  continuous  passa^,  what  time  ought  to  bo  taken  up  in 
the  switching  up,  in  the  switching  of  cars  during  that  [Hiriod  of 
passage  ? 

Mr.  DooiJJY.  I  am  not  prepared  to  say. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Would  a  period  of  eight  days  be  reasonable  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  It  would  depend  upon  conditions. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  think  eight  days  might  be  consumed 
where  there  was  but  one  junction  point? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  It  might  be,  but  I  do  not  think  it  ought  to  be. 

Commissioner  Lane.  As  a  railroad  man,  do  you  know  why  it  takes 
ten  days  ordinarily  for  a  car  to  go  250  miles? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Tfiat  would  depend  upon  how  many  terminals  it  had 
to  go  through,  largely. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Suppose  you  had  no  terminals  to  go  through. 

Mr.  Dooley.  It  ought  not  to  take  ten  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Just  one  question.  "When  you  spoke  of  delay  result- 
ing from  warehousing,  you  meant  delay  to  goods  in  transit? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Into  the  warehouse. 

Mr.  Marble.  Delay  to  goods  in  the  warehouse  and  not  delay  to  the 
cars? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Not  to  the  cars. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Dooley,  I  understand  that  during  the 
summer,  with  the  exception  of  one  or  two  intervals,  you  cleaned  up 
the  work  there  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  We  were  never  cleaned  up.  .li 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Practically  so  J  "^  ' 

Mr.  Dooley.  Practically  so,  yes,  sir.  .' 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  spoke  of  there  lx»ing  occasions  when  you  would 
have  cars  held  on  transfer  on  account  of  lack  of  cars  of  other  lines 
to  transfer  to. 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Be(J(;.  Have  those  delays  been  chiefly  on  account  of  eastern 
lines  failing  to  furnish  cars? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  And  not  on  account  of  we.stem  lines? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No,  sir.  We  most  always  have  a  surplus  of  western 
line  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  a  very  interesting  statement.  In  fact, 
have  you  had  an  abundance  of  cars  on  those  two  lines,  so  that  they 
have  been  sufficient — that  you  have  had  sufficiency  of  cars  to  meet 
the  demands  upon  you  ?  .         ,      . 

Mr.  Dooley.  There  has  been,  with  the  possible  exception  o\       mty- 


142  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

four  hours  or  so.  The  Great  Northern  and  Northern  Pacific  and 
Soo  lines  business  is  particular  business  coming  one  way,  and  there 
are  a  great  many  cars — of  their  cars,  and  we  always  have  cars  at  our 
terminals. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  Great  Northern  and  the  Soo? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  And  the  Northern  Pacific. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  the  Northern  Pacific.  And  you  have 
found  no  insufficiency  of  cars  at  any  time  extending  over  a  period  of 
twenty-four  hours? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Over  a  period  of  twenty- four  to  fortjr-eight  houre. 

Commissioner  Lane.  From  twenty-four  to  forty-eight  hours. 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  when  you  unload  a  car  to  transfer  it  you, 
with  those  exceptions,  can  get  sufficient  cars  on  those  lines  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes.  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  in  this  period  you  say  that  on  the  Great 
Northern  and  the  Northern  Pacific  and  Soo  lines  there  was  no  such 
thing  as  a  car  shortage,  so  far  as  you  experience  goes  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  There  has  been  a  shortage  on  the  Northern  Pacific  and 
Soo  lines,  so  far  as  my  experience  goes,  but  that  shortage  we  filled  out 
here  as  a  rule. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Filled  out  with  what  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  With  cars  making  empty  coming  over  those  lines. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Their  cars;  that  belong  to  them? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  That  we  made  empty  there  transferring  the  loading. 

Mr.  Marble.  Just  one  question  more.  Have  you  shipped  empties 
by  one  of  the  other  of  these  roads? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir ;  frequently. 

Mr.  Marble.  Running  the  empties  to  the  country  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes.  sir;  we  don't  run  to  the  country  ourselves.  Wo 
send  them  to  the  Minneapolis  terminal  as  a  rule. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  understand  that  they  have  been  run  to  the 
country  empty? 

Mr.  Dooley.  I  do  not  know  about  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  don't  know  about  that  at  all? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  No. 

Mr.  Begg.  Have  you  not  on  a  number  of  occasions  allowed  western 
line  cars  to  go  through  to  destination  without  transfer,  because  you 
could  get  the  car  back  quicker  that  way  than  by  waiting  for  cars 
from  the  connecting  lines  ? 

Mr,  DooLEY.  Mr.  Begg,  we  transfer  only  a  small  portion  of  western 
line  cars  that  we  receive. 

Mr.  Begg.  A  great  many  of  them  go  through  ? 

Mr.  Dooley.  a  great  many  of  them  go  through. 

Mr.  Begg.  Even  then  you  have  to  wait  sometimes? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Dooley,  here  is  really  where  a  great  many  of 
Northern  Pacific,  Great  Northern,  and  Soo  line  cars  are  made  empty  ( 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  at  Minneapolis  and  St.  Paul  and  at  the  Minne- 
sota Transfer  with  other  eastern  railways? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Yes,  sir. 
-    Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  all. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  143 

Mr.  Marble.  You  don't  make  any  empties  on  St.  Paul  and  Minne- 
apolis business  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  nothing  to  do  with  those  empties,  have 
you? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  simply  know  about  them  as  a  railroad  man? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those  arc  wheat  cars  that  are  made  empty? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  what  they  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  know  what  traffic  it  is  that  makes  the 
empty  cars? 

Mr.  Dooley.  Wheat,  usually,  of  course. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  of  the  volume  of  this  year  as  compared 
with  previous  ye^irs? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  know  about  that? 

Mr.  Dooley.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  sort  of  through  traffic  is  it  from  the  North  and 
Northwest,  of  which  you  relieve  the  cars? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  We  have  a  list.  I  did  not  bring  it  with  me.  It  is  a 
long  transfer  list  which  includes  a  largo  number  of  commodities  that 
the  roads  have  considered  might  he  damaged  in  handling  in  transfer. 
Those  commodities,  when  loaded,  are  permitted  to  run  through  in 
the  original  cars.  All  other  commodities,  where  damage  will  not 
result  from  unloading,  are  being  transferred  from  car  to  car. 

Mr.  Marble.  Fruit,  for  instance,  you  do  not  transfer? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  What  commodity? 

Mr.  Marble.  Fruit ;  you  do  not  transfer  that  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  "\Miat  else,  for  instance  ?    What  is  the  most  of  it  ? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Machinery. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  do  you  transfer  the  most  of  from  the  North 
and  Northwest  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Shingles  and  flour. 

Mr.  Marble.  Shingles  from  the  Pacific  coast? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Shingles  from  the  Pacific  coast  and  flour. 

Mr.  Marble.  Flour  from  where? 

Mr.  DooLEY.  Various  North  Dakota  and  Minnesota  mills. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

D.  Larson,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  "\Miat  is  your  name  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  D.  Larson. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  at  Cummings,  N.  Dak.? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  interested  in  an  elevator  company  there? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  Farmers'  Elevator? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  any  other  business? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes;  I  am  cashier  of  a  bank. 


144  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Of  what  bank? 

Mr.  Larson.  The  Cummings  State  Bank. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  you  been  interested  in  the  grain  busi- 
ness ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Since  1899. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  short  of  transportation  facilities  at 
that  point  this  year  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir ;  the  two  last  seasons. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  two  years? 

Mr.  Larson.    Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  your  elevator  been  filled  with  wheat? 

Mr.  Larson.    Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Out  of  the  market? 

Mr.  Larson.  It  has  been  full  for  about  five  weeks. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  has  been  full  for  five  weeks  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  previous  to  that  was  it  filled? 

Mr.  Larson.  No;  it  was  filled  just  about  the  10th  of  October,  and 
we  got  a  little  room  just  about  the  25th  of  November. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  the  25th  of  November  you  were  relieved  some- 
what? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Last  year  was  your  elevator  full? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes;  about  the  same  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  suffer  as  much  last  year  as  this? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Before  that,  what  had  been  the  situation  in  previous 
years? 

Mr.  Larson.  We  had  ample  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Ample  cars  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  have  more  cars  than  you  had  last  year  and 
this  year  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  A  ^ood  deal  more. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  year  the  crop  is  larger? 

Mr.  Larson.  Oh,  no ;  the  crop  is  somewhat  smaller. 

Mr.  Marble.  Fewer  cars  last  year  and  this? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes;  in  1899  we  handled  270,000  bushels,  and  last 
season  we  were  only  able  to  handle  100,000,  and  so  far  this  season 
about  60,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  the  wheat  in  the  country?  If  you  could  get  the 
cars  you  could  buy  more  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes;  it  is  there.  Of  course  our  station  is  not  the 
only  one.  The  line  houses  have  facilities  to  handle  the  grain,  but  of 
course  we,  being  a  farmers'  elevator,  handle  the  bulk  of  it,  so  our  busi- 
ness is  cut  down. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  line  elevators  are  left  in  control  of  the 
market  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir;  for  the  time  we  are  filled,  and  of  course  it 
increases  our  expenses  in  the  way  of  interest  and  insurance. 

Mr.  Marble.  Interest  on  the  grain  held  in  the  house  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  insurance  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  145 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  apply  for  cars? 

Mr.  Larson.  Oh,  yes;  we  applied  right  along,  and  I  had  written 
to  the  train  dispatcher  at  Grand  Forks  several  times,  and  the  division 
superintendent,  and  I  called  him  up  by  phone,  and  several  times  pre- 
viously have  been  ordering  at  local  stations. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  any  explanation  been  made  to  you  why  they 
don't  give  them  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Larsox.  Not  any. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  testified  as  to  the  number  of  bushels  you  handled. 
How  much  was  the  business  cut  down  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  About  75  per  cent  the  two  last  seasons. 

Mr.  Marble.  "\Miat  is  tne  effect  upon  the  market  of  this  failure  of 
transportation  facilities? 

Mr.  Larson.  At  our  station  it  don't  affect  us  any.  The  line  houses 
are  paying  good  prices  for  grain. 

Mr.  Marble.  Good  prices? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.   You  do  not  think  the  farmers  have  lost? 

Mr.  Larson.  Oh,  no;   the  farmers  have  not  lost. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  on  a  branch  line,  are  you? 

Mr.  Larson.  We  are  on  a  line  between  the  Grand  Forks  and  Fargo. 

Mr.  Marble.   Is  this  the  Great  Northern  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir;  the  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  ^Larble.  As  to  the  cars  that  you  have  shipped,  have  they  gone 
forward  promptly? 

Mr.  Larson.   Fairly  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  moved  promptly  after  being  loaded  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Cars  have  been  standing  on  the  track  about  a  week; 
that  has  l)een  the  limit. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  have  stood  there  a  week  ? 

Mr.  LARSt)N.  I  should  say  at  the  station  probably  about  a  dozen 
cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  dozen  at  a  time,  do  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Larson.   All  told. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  those  all  told  stood  about  a  week? 

Mr.  Lar.son.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  are  you  from  Duluth? 

Mr.  Lars^in.  Well,  I  should  say  about  250  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  does  it  take  your  cars  to  get  from  your  sta- 
tion to  Duluth? 

Mr.  Larson.  Oh,  generally  about  six  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Alx)ut  six  days? 

Mr.  Larson.  I  should  say  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  on  the  main  line? 

Mr.  LARst)N.  I  suppose  it  is  the  main  line. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  deal  in  coal? 

Mr.  Larson.  No;  we  dealt  in  coal  (hiring  1800  and  1000,  but  after 
tlint  the  coal  companies  refused  to  sell  us  coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  was  that? 

Mr.  Larson.  T  suppose  that  we  were  not  in  the  trust. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  they  tell  you  that  was  the  reason? 

Mr.  Marble.  They  told  us  they  could  not  sell  coal  for  the  reason 
that  other  dealers  obiected  to  it. 
S.  Doc.  333. 59-2 10 


146  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  what  other  dealers? 

Mr.  Larson.  I  should  think  the  Valley  Coal  Company. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  they  tell  you  what  other  dealers  objected? 

Mr.  Larson.  No;  they  did  not,  but  they  are  the  only  dealers  in 
town  or  were  the  only  dealers  at  the  time.  Now,  the  Valley  Elevator 
Company  handles  the  coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  they  go  into  the  coal  business  since  you  were 
forced  out  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Into  the  coal  business ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  try  more  than  one  company? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir ;  three  or  four. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  get  the  same  answer  from  all  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  there  any  complaint  about  the  prices  you  sold 
coal  at? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes;  we  sold  it  cheaper  than  the  other  companies. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  they  tell  you  that  you  sold  it  cheaper? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  they  give  you  that  as  one  of  the  reasons? 

Mr.  Larson.  That  was  one  of  the  reasons,  and  they  said  we  did 
not  have  any  regular  coal  warehouse. 

Mr.  Marble.  No  regular  coal  warehouse? 

Mr.  Larson.  We  sold  out  of  the  car. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  sold  out  of  the  car? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  railroad  company  did  not  object  to  that? 

Mr.  Larson.  Not  any. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  coal  companies  did? 

Mr.  Larson.  The  coal  companies  did. 

Mr.  Marble.  Wliat  is  the  supply  of  coal  at  your  point  now? 

Mr.  Larson.  So  far  as  suffering  is  concerned,  we  have  not  suffered 
from  a  lack  of  coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  suffering:  now  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  cashier  of  a  bank? 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  tell  us  what  you  see  of  this  thing  in  your 
bank — what  the  effect  is  there  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  It  has  no  effect  in  the  bank  for  the  reason  that  the 
farmers  can  sell  the  grain  right  along. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  the  farmers  sold  the  grain,  you  find  that  the  loans 
don't  increase  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  Only  so  far  as  the  shortage  of  the  crop  generally. 

Mr.  BuNN.  There  was  a  shortage  of  crops  this  year  in  the  low 
fork  in  the  Red  River  Valley  ? 

Mr.  Larson.  The  short  crop  commenced  8  miles  south  of  us. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Larson,  what  I  mean  is  that  that  is  a  local  condi- 
tion in  the  low  part  of  the  Red  River  Valley. 

Mr.  Larson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  did  not  get  as  many  cars  as  last  year? 

Mr.  Larson.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  147 

F.  Bell,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified  as  fol- 
lows : 

Mr,  Marble.  Mr.  Bell  is  your  name  i 

Mr,  Bell.  Ves,  sir, 

Mr.  Marble,  And  you  i-eside  at  Montrose,  Minn.? 

Mr.  Bell,   Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble.  And  you  are  superintendent? 

Mr,  i^ELL.   Ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  what  road  i 

Mr,  Bell,  Great  Northern, 

Mr,  Marble.  As  superintendent  what  ai*e  your  duties? 

Mr.  Bell,  To  exercise  general  sn|x»rvisiou  over  all  of  the  business 
in  my  territory. 

Mr.  Marble,   You  direct  the  makin|i^  up  of  trains? 

Mr,  Bell,  indii-ectly, 

Mr,  Marble,  And  have  supervision  of  the  dispatching? 

Mr,  Bell,   Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble,  And  overlook  the  pay  rolls? 

Mr,  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  movement  of  trains? 

Mr.  Bell.   Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  bring  in  any  sheets  or  documents  with  you? 

Mr.  Bell.   Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  \\Tiat  did  you  bring? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  brought  the  train  dispatcher's  sheets,  covering  a  pe- 
riod from  June  1  to  date. 

Mr,  Marble.  \Miere  are  they? 

Mr,  Bell,  In  the  room. 

Mr.  Marble.  W'here  in  the  room?  Will  you  get  pos.session  of 
them? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes;  they  are  over  in  the  corner  there  [indicating]. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  else  did  you  bring  ^ 

Mr.  Bell.  Why,  a  few  memoranda  I  thought  might  be  of  intei'est 
to  the  <iuestion, 

Mr.  >Iarble,  a  matter  you  desired  to  offer? 

Mr,  Bell,   Yes;  if  the  occasion  offers, 

Mr,  Marble,  I  have  no  objection  to  that  at  all.  And  what  does 
this  memoranda  you  made  up  relate  to? 

Mr,  Bell,  The  movement  of  trains  and  shortage  of  cars, 

Mr,  Marble,  You  have  a  section  of  the  main  line? 

Mr.  Bell,  Yes,  sir;  I  have  the  main  line  from  a  point  just  outside 
of  Minneapolis  to  Barnesville,  appro.ximately  '200  miles. 

Mr,  Marble.  That  is  not  the  main  line  to  Duluth  ? 

Mr,  Bell,  No,  sir, 

Mr.  Marble,  That  has  to  do  with  shipments  to  Minneapolis? 

Mr,  Bell,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble.  You  make  rather  Ix^tter  time  on  the  eastern  division 
than  the  people  do  farther  west,  do  you  not? 

•Mr.  Bell.  I  l)elieve  so,  but  that  is  from  hearsay  only. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  your  information? 

Mr,  Bell,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  AMiat  is  the  length  of  this  division? 

Mr.  Bell,  It  is  approximateU'  'iOO  miles.  It  extends  to  Barnes- 
ville, which  is  217  miles  from  St.  Paul. 


148  CAB    SH0BTA6E. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  two  divisions,  really  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Two  districts;   one  division. 

Mr.  Marble.  Two  train  runs  cover  that? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  take  the  time  that  a  train  registers  in  at  your 
farthest  point  to  the  time  that  they  sign  in  in  this  city ;  what  do  you 
think  a  fair  time  would  be  to  cover  that  distance,  and  that  will  in- 
clude what  you  think  fair  delay  at  your  farthest  division  point — a 
freight  train;  a  dead  freight  train,  not  one  of  your  oriental  trains? 

Mr.  Bell.  About  thirty-six  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  thirty-six  hours? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  that  is  a  fair  time,  and  that  that  should 
include  any  reasonable  or  allowable  or  necessary  delay  in  getting 
through  division  points? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes;  under  ordinary  conditions  thirty-six  hours  would 
be  a  reasonable  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  under  such  conditions  as  you  had  during  this 
crop  year,  what  would  be  a  reasonable  time? 

Mr.  Bell.  About  that  period. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  time  were  you  actually  making? 

Mr.  Bell.  About  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  you  consider,  on  this  part  of  the  road  which  is 
under  your  superintendence,  that  you  have  done  about  as  well  as 
you  would  expect  to? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  of  that  thirty-six  hours  did  you  account 
for  getting  through  the  two  division  points  which  we  allow  for  there  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Prom  ten  to  twelve  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  six  hours  to  a  division  point? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tn  what  way  is  that  consumed  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Switching,  making  up  trains — breaking  up  and  making 
up  trains. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  count  that  when  a  train  gets  to  a  division  point 
it  will  be  broken  up? 

Mr.  Bell.   Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Necessarily? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Most  trains  are? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  they  actually  carry  out  different  cars  from  what 
they  bring  in? 

Mr.  Bell.  Very  often. 

Mr.  Marble.  Very  often? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  switch  out  cars  that  have  just  come  in  and 
put  in  cars  that  you  have  had  standing  there  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Sometimes  we  would  do  that  in  periods  of  congestion, 
but  ordinarily  it  is  switching  trains  in  station  order — that  is,  getting 
the  set-out  loads  together,  so  that  you  can  set  them  out  with  the  least 
possible  delay  on  the  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  in  periods  of  congestion,  if  you  had  freight  that 
had  been  standing  in  there,  and  cai-s  were  in  the  train,  in  order  to 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  149 

equalize  the  delay  you  would  cut  out  the  cars  in  the  train  and  let 
those  held  up  go  forward? 

Mr.  Bell.  It  is  the  intention  to  move  traffic  in  its  order. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  to  do  that  this  fall? 

Mr.  Bell.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  at  all? 

Mr.  Bell.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  it  has  l)een  done  at  other  divi- 
sion points? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  can  not  say. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  not  been  informed? 

Mr.  Bell.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  did  j'ou  last  do  that? 

Mr.  Bell.  Not  during  my  term  of  office  on  the  division. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Somewhat  less  than  a  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  method  would  be  followed  "during  any  time  of 
congestion,  would  it? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  might  explain  the  slowness  of  the  move- 
ment of  cars  when  trains  seem  to  go  reasonably  fast  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Possibly. 

Mr.  Marble.  To  what  percentage  of  their  capacity  do  you  load 
your  engines? 

Mr.  Bell.  At  the  present  time  about  50  to  60  {)t»r  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Fifty  to  GO  per  cent? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  light  loading? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir ;  very. 

Mr.  Marble.  Very  light? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  why  do  you  load  them  so  lightly  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  To  make  time  with  the  trains. 

Mr.  Marble.  Trains  make  better  time  if  loaded  lightly  than  if 
loaded  heavily? 

Mr.  Bell.  Sometimes.  It  depends  on  the  weather  conditions. 
At  this  time  of  the  year  we  run  our  trains  lighter  than  during  warm 
weather. 

Mr.  Marble.  Because  the  engine  can  not  do  as  much  work  in  very 
cold  weather? 

Mr.  Bell.  The  efficiency  of  the  locomotive  is  somewhat  reduced  in 
severe  weather. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  if  you  loaded  a  locomotive  to  about  90  per  cent 
now,  perhaps  it  would  not  go  through  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Not  under  all  conditions.  It  depends  on  the  locality 
and  the  weather  conditions  of  certain  districts.  We  have  some  dis- 
tricts where  the  wind  blows  all  the  time,  and  we  have  to  reduce  our 
trains.  We  have  other  districts  where  there  is  no  trouble,  and  then 
we  have  districts  where  there  is  snow  and  wind,  and  of  course  we 
hav«}  to  reduce  it.  Where  there  is  no  trouble  we  will  load  the  engine 
nearly  to  capacity  and  make  just  as  good  time  as  when  it  is  loaded 
only  to  50  to  60  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  serious  grades  to  deal  with  on  your  divi- 
sion? 


150  CAB  SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes;  we  have  what  are  considered  heavy  grades — six- 
tenths  of  1  per  cent,  and  in  some  places  eight-tenths  of  1  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  load  trains  so  that  the  engine  starting  with 
the  train  can  carry  through  this  freight  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  divide  the  train  and  make  two  trips  over 
hills? 

Mr.  Bell.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  do  that  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  We  do  not  make  a  practice  of  that, 

Mr.  Marble.  It  occurs  sometimes? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  do  not  recall  any  cases  now. 

Mr.  Marble,  Have  you  helper  engines  that  you  help  trains  over  the 
hills  with — extra  engines? 

]Mr.  Bell.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  enough  engines. 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  handicapped  for  lack  of  engines? 

Mr.  Bell.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  enough  cars  for  local  business? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Marble,  Xo  delay  in  that  way  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Xo  shortage? 

Mr.  Bell.  There  iias  not  been  any  at  any  time  during  the  fall,  any 
shortage  of  cars  on  my  division,  except  for  short  jjeriods,  and  those 
are  very  infrequent  occurrences — much  more  infrequent  than  last 
year  or  the  year  before  or  the  year  before  that, 

Mr,  Marble,  On  your  division  you  have  better  service  than  last 
year  and  two  years  previous? 

Mr,  Bell.  I  should  say  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  able  to  move  cars  promptly  when 
loaded  ? 

Mr,  Bell,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  of  any  instances  of  cars  standing  a  week 
after  being  loaded  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  do  not  recall  any.  Yesterday  morning  there  were  no 
loads  on  the  division  that  had  stood  more  than  forty-eight  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  ago  did  you  begin  to  load  engines  to  50  or 
60  per  cent  of  capacity  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  With  the  advent  of  cold  weather — perhaps  a  month. 

Mr.  Marble.  Perhaps  a  month  ago.  And  previous  to  that  how 
were  you  loading? 

Mr.  Bell.  We  have  had  business  loaded  to  capacity. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  do  you  mean  by  "  capacity  ?  " 

Mr.  Bell.  I  mean  the  capacity  of  the  engine. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  load  100  per  cent  of  their  capacity  or  00  per 
cent? 

Mr.  Bell.  On  some  districts  we  run  them  to  capacity. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  where  you  have  down  grades? 

Mr.  Bell.  Where  the  grades  are  favorable  and  where  the  weather 
conditions  permit. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  capacity  furnished  to  you  by  the  capacity 
marked  on  the  engine? 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  151 

Mr.  Bell.  The  capacity  is  usually  furnished  by  the  mechanical 
department. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  master  mechanic  furnishes  that? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  might  say  that  in  explanation  of  the  50  and  60  per 
cent  now  being  hauled  by  the  engines,  that  the  business  on  the  divi- 
sion which  I  represent  is  not  so  great  as  it  was  thirty  to  sixty  (hiys 
ago,  when  we  were  hauling,  perhaps,  a  larger  percentage  of  the 
rating. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you,  at  any  time  during  the  season,  made  de- 
lays in  the  shipment  of  grain  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  >iO,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  l>een  able  to  forward  jiromptly? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  if  we  may  have  those  sheets  in  the  room  to  ex- 
amine them  we  will  be  very  much  obliged  to  you. 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  is  the  coal  supply  of  the  railroad  in  the  district 
under  vour  supervision  ? 

Mr.  IBell.  Not  so  great  as  in  previous  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  coal  in  store  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  No,  sir;  we  are  running,  perhaps,  with  twenty-four  to 
thirty-six  hours'  supply  ahead  on  the  division. 

Mr.  Marbij!.  You  keep  that  in  bins  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  No,  sir;  we  keep  it  in  cars.  We  are  unloading  almost 
from  the  cars  to  the  locomotives  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^Miat  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  We  are  unloading  almost  from  the  cars  to  the  locomo- 
tives at  this  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  far  as  the  twenty-four  to  thirty-six  hours  are  con- 
cerned, you  are  using  cai*s  for  storage? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  do  not  suppose  cars  remain  under  load  with  coal  more 
than  twelve  hours  at  any  of  our  terminals. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  are  unloaded  so  promptly  that  it  is  not  prac- 
ticable to  put  the  coal  in  bins  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  You  understand  that  coal  is  all  handled  through  sheds, 
but  we  do  not  at  other  times.  We  have  l)een  able  to  carry,  periiaps, 
five  days'  supply  at  the  shed.  At  this  time  it  is  going  directly 
through  the  shed  to  the  locomotive,  the  supply  is  so  short. 

Mr.  Marble.  Since  last  May,  what  is  the  most  that  you  have  been 
ahead  in  your  supply  of  coal  at  any  time? 

Mr.  Bell.  At  any  time  since  last  May?  I  think  not  more  than 
four  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  more  than  four  days?  You  have  l)een  living 
pretty  close  to  the  supply  all  the  time  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Has  there  been  an  unprecedented  amount  of 
traffic  on  your  road  this  year? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  the  division  has  handled  more  business 
this  year  than  for  many  years  previous. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  percentage  of  increase? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  should  say  during  the  months  of  July,  August,  and 
September,  and  half  of  October,  it  has  increased  from  75  to  100  per 
cent  in  tonnage  handled  over  the  division. 


152  CAR    SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Almost  double  in  those  months? 

Mr.  Bell.  That  represents  through  business  largely. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Of  what  has  it  consisted? 

Mr.  Bell.  Merchandise,  lumber,  shingles,  and  machinery. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Going  which  way,  chiefly? 

Mr.  Bell.  AVestbound  principally,  although  the  eastbound  business 
in  lumber  and  shingles  has  been  very  heavy. 

Commissioner  Lane.  AVhat  would  be  the  eastbound  freight? 

Mr.  Bell.  Lumber  and  shingles  principally. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  the  westbond? 

Mr.  Bell.  Merchandise,  machinery,  and  coal. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  on  that  division  you  have  no  shortage 
of  cars? 

Mr.  Bell.  Not  for  any  protracted  period;  no,  sir.  Of  course 
there  are  complaints  from  time  to  time  m  isolated  cases,  but  for  the 
most  part  they  are  for  foreign  cars  only,  for  cars  to  load  for  for- 
eign lines,  and  the  difficulty  has  been  in  securing  those  foreign  cars. 
There  has  been  no  real  shortage  of  system  cars  at  any  time  during 
the  fall,  and  there  is  not  now. 

Commissioner  Lane.  A\Tiat  are  the  points  between  which  you  con- 
trol the  operation  of  the  road? 

Mr.  Bell.  Between,  you  might  say,  Minneapolis  and  Barnesville. 
The  real  terminal  of  the  division  is  outside  of  Minneapolis,  at  Coon 
Creek  Junction,  and  it  extends  west  to  Barnesville,  and  then  I  run 
over  to  Willmar. 

Commissioner  Lane.  A  total  of  217  miles? 

Mr.  Bell.  Two  hundred  and  seventeen  miles  from  St.  Paul;  yes, 
sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  spoke  of  a  great  increase  in  business  over  your 
division.  Is  not  that  to  some  extent  due  to  the  fact  that  you  handle 
business  which  ordinarily  went  over  another  line? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir;  business  formerly  handled  over  the  Willmar 
and  Breckenridge  divisions. 

Mr.  Begg.  The  capacity  of  engines,  as  you  get  it,  is  furnished  to 
you  by  the  mechanical  department,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Bell.  Primarily,  yes;  but  it  has  been  the  practice  in  past 
years  to  make  tests,  actual  tests,  on  the  division  to  determine  the  haul- 
ing power  of  the  engines. 

Mr.  Begg.  AMien  you  speak  of  loading  the  engine  to  the  full  capac- 
ity you  mean  loading  to  the  full-rated  capacity  given  you? 

'Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Begg.  That  does  not  mean  all  the  engine  can  haul? 

Mr.  Bell.  No;  not  by  any  means. 

Mr.  Begg.  From  the  line  west  of  Barnesville  there  is  a  division 
that  is  not  under  your  charge? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  Including  the  Barnesville  station? 

Mr.  Bell.  The  Barnesville  station  is  not  under  my  control ;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  What  do  vou  consider  a  reasonable  time  to  put  a  train 
through  Barnesville,  after  it  has  registered  into  Barnesville  until  it 
is  delivered  to  your  division  for  bringing  on  east  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Mr.  Begg,  it  depends  altogether  on  conditions  and 
which  way  the  business  is  moving.    If  the  business  is  largely  west 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  153 

bound,  then  east-bound  business  through  Barnesville  might  be  handled 
in  less  time. 

Mr.  Begg.  "When  you  spoke  of  six  hours  being  a  reasonable  time  to 
go  throujjh  a  terminal 

Mr.  Bell.  That  is  a  low  fi^ire. 

Mr.  Begg  (continuing).  \ou  counted  on  everything  being  favor- 
able? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes;  I  counted  on  everything  being  favorabU*.  Under 
certain  conditions  I  do  not  consider  that  twelve  hours'  delay  at  a 
terminal  is  unreasonable. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  mean  through  a  division  point — terminal? 

Mr.  Bell.  The  ends  of  each  district  are  called  terminals. 

Mr.  Marble.  Every  second  district? 

Mr.  Bell.  The  distance  from  district  point  to  district  point  aver- 
ages about  109  miles.  It  is  about  109  miles  from  St.  Paul  to  Melrose. 
Melrose  is  practically  about  the  same  distance  from  Barnesville, 
which  is  next.     That  is  the  run  of  a  crew  and  engine. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think,  then,  in  every  hundred  miles  it  is  fair  to 
have  ten  to  twelve  hours'  delay  lor  switcliing? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  think  that  is  not  unreasonable  for  dead  freight.  Of 
course  it  is  much  better  on  high-class  freight.  On  west-bound  busi- 
ness there  is  time  allowed  on  certain  freight  at  terminals,  to  change 
engines,  etc.,  which  runs  from  thirty  minutes  to  an  hour  and  a  half. 

Mr.  Begg.  Mr.  Bell,  what  is  a  reasonable  time  for  a  freight  train 
to  register  in  at  the  east  end  of  your  division,  after  it  has  registered 
out  of  Barnesville,  after  delivery  to  you? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  do  not  think  I  understand. 

Mr.  Begg.  After  a  train  registers  out  of  Barnesville,  what  do  you 
consider  a  reasonable  time  to  be  consumed  in  getting  over  this  division 
and  turning  the  train  over  to  the  next  division  here  at  Minneapolis? 

Mr.  Bell.  A  train  of  dead  freight? 

Mr.  Begg.  A  train  of  dead  freight;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bell.  I  think  thirty-six  hours  would  be  a  reasonable  time. 

Mr.  Begg.  In  giving  thirty-six  hours,  then,  vou  understood  Mr. 
Marble  to  say  that  the  train  had  registered  out  of  Barnesville  instead 
of  being  registered  in? 

Mr.  Bell.  Perhaps  it  is  not  understood  that  I  have  no  control  of 
the  terminal  on  the  west  end  of  my  division,  and  that  trains  do  not 
enter  upon  my  division  until  they  are  started  from  Barnesville. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  tried  to  make  my  question  very  plain.  I  will  re- 
peat what  I  said ;  that  after  trains  registered  in  at  the  farthest  point 
under  your  control,  what  is  a  fair  time  from  that  moment  to  the  time 
that  the  train  is  registered  in  at  this  end? 

Mr.  Bell.  If  I  said  thirty-six  hours,  I  misunderstood  you,  and 
would  add  twelve  hours,  which  would  make  forty-eight  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  Making  forty -eight  hours? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  to  say,  the  running  time  on  each  district, 
and  twelve  hours  delay  at  each  terminal. 

Mr.  ALvrble.  Twelve  hours  at  each  terminal  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir;  there  you  have  two  terminals  of  twelve  hours 
each,  and  two  runs  of  twelve  hours,  which  would  make  a  total  of 
forty-eight  hours. 

Mr.  AIarble.  Twenty-four  hours  on  the  road  and  twenty-four  hours 
in  the  terminals? 


154  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  you  consider  a  reasonable  time  for  a 
freight  train  passing  over  217  miles  and  through  two  terminal 
points  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir ;  for  dead  freight. 

Commissioner  Lane.  For  dead  freight? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  if  the  train  should  pass  another  100 
miles  over  the  track  and  pass  through  one  additional  terminal,  how 
much  should  it  consume  in  addition  to  the  forty-eight  hours? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  should  say  about  twenty-four  hours  more. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Twenty-four  hours  more? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Then  it  would  be  three  full  days  to  pass  a 
distance  of  300  miles  and  pass  through  three  terminals. 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  how  fast  canal  boats  travel? 

Mr.  Bell.  No;  I  have  had  no  experience  with  canal  boats. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  how  fast  a  horse  can  walk? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  know'  how  fast  a  man  can  walk. 

Mr.  Marble.  He  can  walk  as  fast  as  you  think  trains  should  go, 
can  he  not? 

Mr.  Bell.  Approximately. 

Mr.  Begg.  In  connection  with  the  grain  traffic,  is  there  an  inspec- 
tion point  on  your  division  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

•Mr.  Begg.  At  Melrose  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  What  delays  are  incident  to  this  necessary  inspection? 

Mr.  Bell.  If  a  car  of  ^rain  arrives  at  Melrose,  say,  at  5  p.  m., 
it  can  not  be  inspected  until  daylight  the  next  morning. 

Mr.  Begg.  How  long  does  the  inspection  ordinarily  provide,  to 
inspect  a  train  of  grain? 

Mr.  Bell.  Three  or  four  hours,  or  four  or  five  hours.  It  depends 
altogether  on  the  man.  Some  men  inspect  a  train  in  half  the  time. 
They  have  more  experience. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  this  estimate  you  don't  include  time  for  inspection 
in  estimated  cases? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  did  not  add  anything  additional  on  that  account. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  used  the  term  "  dead  freight."  I  wish  you 
would  state  what  is  meant  by  that. 

Mr.  Bell.  The  most  common  commodities  are  coal,  grain,  and 
lumber. 

Mr.  Marble.  Any  other  sorts  of  commodities  that  you  handle  as 
dead  freight? 

Mr.  Bell.  Not  in  large  quantities. 

Mr.  Marble.  Coal,  grain,  and  lumber? 

Mr.  Bell.  Those  are  the  principal  commodities. 

Mr.  Marble.  Hay  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  Hay  is  dead  freight. 

Mr.  Marble.  Potatoes? 

Mr.  Bell.  No;  they  are  considered  perishable  and  a  higher  class 
freight. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  155 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  distance  from  (irand  Forks  to 
Duluth? 

Mr.  Beog.  About  300  miles. 

Commissioner  IjAxe.  That  is  over  the  Great  Northern? 

Mr.  Begg.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  I^ane.  How  many  division  jwints? 

Mr.  Begg.  After  leaving  (irand  Forks  the  next  division  point  is 
Brookston;  then  Cass  Lake,  and  then  comes  Superior. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Then  there  are  three  terminals  altogether? 

Mr.  Begg.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  A  train  starts  from  Grand  Forks,  and  in 
passing  through  three  terminals  and  being  inspected — a  train  of 
grain — what  time  should  it  take,  ordinarilv,  to  make  that  trip  of 
300  miles? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  am  not  familiar  with  the  conditions  of  that  country. 
I  do  not  feel  qualified  to  say. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  have  passed  over  that  road  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  have  ridden  over  it ;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  how  far  it  differs  from  your 
road? 

Mr.  Bell.  Only  in  a  general  way.  I  know  that  the  weather  con- 
ditions there  are  much  more  severe  than  on  the  division  I  am  on  now. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  weather  conditions  in  October  differed 
seriously  ? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  think  not  in  October;  but  in  the  winter  months. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  take  it  in  Octol)er.  ^\'Tiat  time  should 
such  a  train  take  in  passing  from  Grand  Forks  to  Duluth? 

Mr.  Bell.  I  should  say  from  three  to  four  days. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Including  inspection? 

Mr.  Bell.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

L.  W.  BowEN,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified  n  • 
follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  name  is  L.  W.  Bowen? 
Mr.  Bowen.  L.  W.  Bowen. 
Mr.  Marble.  And  you  reside  at  AVillmar? 
Mr.  Bowen.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  business? 
Mr.  Bowen.  Superintendent. 
Mr.  Marble.  For  what  road  ? 
Mr.  Bowen.  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  how  much  road  is  under  your  charge? 
Mr.  Bowen.  Three  hundred  and  ninety-eight  miles. 
Mr.  Marble.  That  is  not  in  one  stretch,  is  it? 
Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tell  us  between  what  points. 

Mr.  Bowen.  From  just  outside  of  Minneapolis — from  Wayzatn — 
to  Breckonridge:  that  is  on  the  main  line. 

Mr.  Marble.  Wayzata  to  Breckenridge  is  how  far? 
Mr.  Bowen.  Practically  200  miles. 


156  CAR    SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  other  198  miles — where  do  you  make  those? 

Mr.  BowEN.  We  have  160  miles  on  what  we  call  the  Watertown 
branch,  from  Huron  to  Benson,  Minn.,  or  Benson  to  Huron. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  say  it  is  160  miles?  Then,  you  have  some 
more  ? 

Mr.  Boa\t:n.  We  have  a  line  from  Morris  to  Browns  Valley,  Minn. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Bo  wen.  Forty -eight  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  all? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  handle  any  of  the  through  business  to  Duluth  ? 

Mr.  Bo  WEN.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  does  not  reach  you? 

Mr.  Bo  WEN.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Of  the  through  business,  what  traffic  do  you  get? 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  say  to  Duluth,  the  through  business  perhaps  of  that 
grain — some  of  it  touches  on  the  line  going  to  Duluth — passes  Will- 
mar. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  it  does  not  come  to  you  from  the  far  end  of  your 
division  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes;  some  if  it  might,  going  to  Duluth,  on  the  west 
end. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  point  where  grain  branches  off  to  Duluth, 
is  how  far? 

Mr.  Bowen.  I  do  not  know  the  farthest  distance  that  we  can  get. 
I  think  it  would  be  Huron  or  Breckenridge. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  haul  grain  from  Huron  to  Duluth  ?  Do  you 
carry  any  of  that  traffic? 

Mr.  Bo  WEN.  I  do  not  know  that  we  have  had  any ;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Passing  over  the  line  from  Wayzata  to  Breckenridge : 
take  a  train  loaded  with  dead  freight.  From  the  time  it  registers 
into  your  charge  at  Wayzata  to  the  time  it  registers  in  at  Brecken- 
ridge, what  do  you  consider  a  reasonable  time? 

Mr.  BowEN.  That  would  depend  upon  the  conditions  and  the  kind 
of  freight  we  were  handling. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  said  a  dead  freight  train.  Is  there  a  distinction  in 
that? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir;  there  would  be,  because  we  do  not  have 
over  our  division  a  dead  freight  train  west  as  a  usual  thing. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  have  it  east? 

Mr.  BowEN.  We  have  it  east. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  reverse  it,  then,  and  turn  the  question  around 
and  say  from  Breckenridge  to  Wayzata  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  would  say  about  sixty  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  division  points  would  that  pass  through  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Pass  through  one. 

Mr.  Marble.  Only  one  division.  I  want  you  to  include  the  time 
at  Breckenridge — the  time  it  registers  in  at  Breckenridge. 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  do  not  know  what  length  of  time  it  would  take  to 
make  up  a  train  at  Breckenridge.    Perhaps  it  would  take  ten  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  you  consider  that  reasonable? 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  would ;  yes,  sir ;  under  normal  conditions.  If  it 
were  in  the  winter  I  would  not. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  157 

Mr.  Marble.  In  the  winter  I  expect  you  would  say  it  ought  to 
take  a  longer  time? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  October — such  weather  as  you  had  in  October — 
you  consider  ten  hours  a  fair  time  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  ten  hours  for  Breckenridge,  and  your  divi- 
sion point  nearest  beyond  that  is  what  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  AVillmar. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  is  the  running  time  to  Willmar  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  About  twelve  or  fourteen  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  miles? 

Mr.  Bowen.  One  hundred  and  twelve. 

Mr.  Marble.  Twelve  to  fourteen  hours  for  112  miles.  How  long 
would  vou  think  that  a  train  of  dead  freight  should  lie  at  Willmar? 

Mr.  feowEN.  That  would  depend  upon  the  time  it  reached  there. 
We  have  a  grain  inspection. 

Mr.  Marble.  Omitting  the  grain  inspection,  considering  the  total 
distance? 

Mr.  Bowen.  If  the  yard  were  perfectly  clear  and  you  had  power 
there  to  handle  it,  it  would  l>e  in  there  perhaps  five  or  six  hours. 
That  would  be  a  quick  movement. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  say,  five  or  six  hours  at  one  division  point,  and 
how  much  at  the  other? 

Mr.  Bowen.  You  did  not  mention  a  train  load  of  ha}'.  That 
would  not  have  to  be  switched. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  it  comes  in  as  a  solid  train  load  that  don't  need 
switching,  and  vou  consider  five  or  six  hours  that  train  needs  without 
being  switched  f 

Mr.  Bowen.  A  traip  load  of  hay  perhaps  five  hours;  the  conductor 
would  have  to  get  in,  check-  the  car  numbers,  as  well  as  the  manifest, 
etc. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  if  it  were  grain,  how  long  would  it  be? 

Mr.  Bowen.  That  would  have  to  b^  inspected. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  would  it  be  in  tnese  vards,  then,  inspection 
and  all? 

Mr.  Bowen.  I  presume  a  train  load  of  grain,  if  it  reached  there  in 
the  evening,  would  be  in  the  yard  anywhere  from — at  this  time  of  the 
year — anywhere  from  eighteen  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  am  talking  about  October. 

Mr.  Bowen.  October — fifteen  hours,  probably. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  count  how  much  of  that  time  for  in.spec- 
tion  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  It  would  lay  there  all  night  before  it  was  inspected, 
if  it  reached  there  in  the  evening. 

Mr.  Marble.  Perhaps  half  of  the  time  for  inspection? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes;  more  than  half. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  running  time  to  Wayzata  would  be  how 
long? 

Mr.  Bowen.  That  would  probably  be  ten  or  twelve  hours  from 
Willmar  to  Wayzata. 

Air.  Marble.  You  say  forty-five  hours?  I  do  not  want  to  mislead 
you  on  this  question.     Did  you  say  forty-five  hours  from  the  time 


158  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

the  grain  registered  in  at  Breckenridge  until  it  registered  in  at 
Wayzata  ? 

Mr,  Bo  WEN.  Oh,  no;  I  should  say  seventy. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  that  is  entirely  reasonable  and  prac- 
tical ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  actually  accomplished  such  results  this 
fall? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  plenty  of  fuel? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  short  of  fuel  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  on  any  road  under  your  charge  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  short  of  cars  for  local  business? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir ;  not  to  speak  of. 

Mr.  Marble.  Practically  not  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Practically  not  at  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  heavily  do  you  load  your  engines? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Well,  our  practice — we  have  been  loading  70  per  cent 
of  what  the  engines  are  rated  at. 

Mr.  Marble.  Seventy  per  cent  ?  How  long  have  you  been  handling 
them  at  70  per  cent  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Well,  practically  all  the  fall. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  testimony  j^esterday,  if  I  remember  it  rightly, 
was  that  engines  are  going  into  Duluth  and  Superior  loaded  to  85 
or  90  per  cent. 

Mr.  Bowen.  I  do  not  know  what  they  are  doing  at  Duluth. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  the  division  Avest  of  that.^ 

Mr.  Bowen.  I  do  not  know  what  they  are  doing. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  instructions  issued  to  load  to  70  per  cent? 

Mr.  Bowen.  We  have  not  any  such  instructions. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  your  practice  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes,  sir ;  and  we  have  perhaps  one  of  the  easiest  divi- 
sfons  on  the  system  to  get  trains  over.  We  have  to  work  with  a 
grade  of  one-tenth  of  1  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.   You  load  your  engines  to  70  per  cent  only  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  you  think  it  wise  to  load  them  heavier? 

Mr.  Bowen.  It  might  be  for  some  reasons,  but  for  handling  busi- 
ness promptly,  I  do  not  think  it  is. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  can  handle  business  more  promptly  by  loading 
about  70  per  cent? 

Mr.  Bowen.  In  some  cases;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  now  done  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  At  this  time  of  the  year ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  it  through  October. 

Mr.  Bowen.  In  the  fall  months  when  there  is  frost  we  can  handle 
70  per  cent  much  better  than  we  can  with  a  full  tonnage  rating  of 
the  engine.  In  the  summer  time  when  it  is  dry  and  good  rail,  our 
engines  can  handle  what  they  are  rated  at  and  make  the  same  tiine. 

Mr.  Marbte.  How  do  you  load  the  engines  in  the  summer  time 
when  the  rails  are  dry? 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  159 

Mr.  BowEN.  We  give  them  100  per  cent  of  the  rating. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  ask  how  long  you  have  been  loading  engines  70  per 
cent.     How  long  did  you  say? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Perhaps  since  the  freezing  weather  set  in.  I  could 
not  tell  you  offhand  just  when  that  was. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  load  them  100  per  cent  when  the  rails  are 
dry? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Commisisoner  Lane.  Is  that  usual,  each  winter? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Sir? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Each  winter  do  you  have  an  order  to  change 
from  100  to  70  per  cent  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Sometimes  we  can  not  handle  more  than  from  40  to 
50,  perhaps.     The  weather  conditions  govern  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  are  the  judge  of  those  conditions? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  overloaded  an  engine,  what  would  be  the 
result  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Well,  there  are  times  when  that  engine  will  take 
beyond  her  rated  capacity  and  there  are  other  times  when  you  have 
to  double  or  reduce. 

.    Mr.  Marble.  If  vou  overloaded  an  engine,  what  would  rasult  to  the 
time  that  you  would  make  over  the  division  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  You  overloaded  an  engine  so  she  could  not  start? 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  overloaded  an  engine  enough  so  it  could  start 
but  slowly,  on  account  of  that  heavier  load,  then  would  the  train  be 
slow  ? '.' 

Mr.  Bov/EN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  the  liability  to  accidents  be  greater? 

Mr.  BowEN.  No,  sir, 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  the  train  require  more  headway  if  going 
against  a  passenger  train? 

Mr.  Bowen.  More  headway — I  do  not  catch  your  meaning. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  mean  to  say,  with  a  heavy  train  coming  from  Min- 
!)oapolis  and  a  passenger  tram  going  to  Minneapolis,  would  you  have 
to  allow  that  heavy  train  more  headway  as  against  the  passenger 
train;  would  it  have  to  have  more  time  to  be  sure  of  making  the 
passing  point? 

Mr.  Bowen.  That  would  be  determined  In'  the  engineer  or  con- 
ductor in  charge  of  the  train.  They  would  know  after  getting  the 
train  started  just  what  point  they  could  make. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  if  the  trains  were  slow  you  could  not  run  so 
close  as  if  they  were  making  time.  Does  that  cause  delays  on  each 
division  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Because  you  load  to  make  the  time? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Makbi-e.  When  vou  sav  100  per  cent,  you  mean  100  per  cent  of 
wliat  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Wliat  the  en<?ine  is  rated  to  handle. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  the  riill  capacity  or  the  total  capacity  of  the 
engine? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^\niat  is  that  rating? 


160  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  BovvEN.  I  do  not  know  that  I  do  understand  what  you  want? 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  do  you  get  that — where  is  it  determined  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Furnished  by  the  mechanical  department,  and  after 
they  furnish  a  theoretical  rating  for  an  engine  we  make  practical  tests 
to  see  how  near  it  will  come  to  handling  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  do  you  make  the  practical  tests? 

Mr.  BowEN.  By  putting  actual  tonnage  on  the  engine  and  sending 
men  along  with  her  to  see  how  she  handled  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  With  all  the  engines  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  No;  engines  of  the  same  class. 

Mr.  Marble.  Of  engines  of  the  same  class? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^Vhen  you  test  one  engine  of  a  class  you  consider 
it  good  enough  for  all  of  that  class? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  ever  find  any  necessity  for  setting  cars  out 
of  freight  trains  to  pick  up  cars  which  have  been  waiting  in  your 
yards,  so  as  to  equalize  the  delays  of  different  cars? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Very  seldom. 

Mr.  Marble.  Once  in  a  while  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  times  of  congestion  that  would  occur? 

Mr.  BoAVEN.  It  would ;  but  we  have  not  had  any  congestion  on  this 
division  since  I  have  been  here. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  on  other  divisions? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  that  done  in  times  of  congestion? 

Mr.  Bowen.  I  never  was  on  a  division  that  was  congested. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  never  been  on  a  division  that  was  con- 
gested ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  on  some  of  those  western  divisions? 

Mr.  Bowen.  I  have  been  on  those  western  divisions. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  should  have  kept  you  there  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No  ;  I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  is  your  coal  supply  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Well,  we  probably  have  three  or  four  days'  supply  on 
hand. 

Mr.  Marble.  Three  or  four  days'  supply  on  hand  ?  Is  that  in  bins 
or  in  cars  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  It  is  in  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  using  practically  direct  from  the  cars  to  the 
engine  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Yes,  sir.  That  is,  we  run  the  car  up  to  the  chute  and 
dump  into  the  bin  and  from  the  bin  to  the  engine,  using  it  up  as  fast 
as  it  comes  to  us. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  don't  consider  you  save  any  time  really  by 
unloading  it  into  the  bins  on  account  of  using  it  so  close  to  the  cars? 
You  handle  it  in  a  reasonable  time  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  The  style  of  cars  we  are  putting  into  the  coal  service — 
we  have  to  unload  them  into  the  sheds  in  order  to  empty  the  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  release  your  coal  cars — in  getting  coal,  do  you 
release  the  cars  promptly  ? 


CAB  SHOBTAGB.  161 

Mr.  BowBN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  do  they  stand  before  unloading? 

Mr.  BowEN.  They  don't  stand  at  all,  practically.  Perhaps,  I 
might  say,  that  they  might  be  in  the  yard  twelve  hours. 

Mr.  Marble,  You  are  about  four  days  ahead  on  the  coal  supply  ? 

Mr.  Bovv-EN.  We  probably  have  that  much — probably  had  this 
morning. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  nearer  your  limit  than  you  have  been  pre- 
viously ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  No;  we  are  not.  We  have  been  closer.  We  have  at 
times  had  only  probably  twentv-four  hours'  supply. 

Mr.  Marbix.  When  was  that  I 

Mr.  Bo  WEN.  Several  times  this  fall. 

Mr.  Marble.  Since  last  May,  what  is  the  longest  time  that  you 
have  been  ahead  in  your  coal  supply  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  do  not  know  that  I  could  tell  you.  I  have  not 
wanted  for  coal  until  the  last  couple  of  months;  there  has  been  a 
shortage  and  I  have  not  paid  very  much  attention  to  that 

Mr.  Marble.  You  consider  that  there  is  something  of  a  shortage 
now  in  your  coal  supply  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Since  last  May  can  you  estimate  that  you  have  ever 
been  a  week  ahead  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  dare  say  we  have  been  two  weeks  ahead. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  coal  dealers  along  your  lines  who  have 
urged  you  to  order  coal  and  store  it? 

Mr.  Bo  WEN.  Ordered  us? 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  urged  you  to  order  coal  and  store  it? 

Mr.  BowEN.  No ;  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  they  could  get  coal  hauled  in  the  winter? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  not  your  road  urged  them  to  order  coal,  so  that 
they  would  have  plenty,  and  was  that  not  reciprocated? 

Mr.  BowEN.  No;  I  do  not  know  about  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Bowen,  did  you  bring  some  sheets  with  you  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  are  they? 

Mr.  BowEN.  In  the  room. 

Mr.  Marble.  May  we  take  those? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bego.  Mt  Bowen,  what  is  the  character  of  cars  that  are  now 
being  used  to  haul  company  coal? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Character  of  cars? 

Mr.  Bego.  What  kind  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Steel-ore  cars. 

Mr.  Bego.  Hopper  bottom? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  Those  are  not  of  a  nature  that  could  be  used  for  com- 
mercial coal  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  No;  they  could  not  be  handled  by  the  commercial 
shipper. 

Mr.  Begg.  So  that  by  hauling  coal  now  in  that  style  of  bottom  cars, 
you  are  not  taking  cars  from  the  conmiercial  trade? 

S.  Doc.  333,  59-2 11 


162  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  BowEN.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  When  speaking  of  taking  seventy  hours  to  get  a  train 
over  your  division,  did  you  inchide  that  dehiy — the  usual  and  ordi- 
nary dehiy  in  meeting  trains  over  your  division  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Begg.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  you  in  previous  years  on  your  division 
had  about  the  same  amount  of  coal  on  hand  at  this  time — as  you 
have  to-day  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Just  about  the  same,  I  think. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  company  does  not,  flong  in  the  summer, 
the  early  summer,  provide  itself  with  a  full  supply  or  coal? 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  presume  the  company  makes  provision  for  coal, 
but  we  can  not  handle  a  very  large  supply  at  our  district  terminals, 
and  the  fact  that  our  cars  are  all  released  in  the  fall  allows  us  to  turn 
those  cars  into  the  service  and  release  the  box  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  that  is  ordinarily  done  to  supply  your 
coal  down  there — with  ore  cars? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  is  nothing  exceptional  about  that, 
then? 

Mr.  Bo  WEN.  No. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Has  your  division  done  that  as  a  means  of 
relieving  box  cars,  etc.,  so  that  they  could  carry  something  else? 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  do  not  think  any  more  this  year  than  usual. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  got  that  impression  that  that  was  an  emer- 
gency measure. 

Mr.  BowEN.  No;  those  cars  are  very  nice  for  us  to  handle  in  our 
modern  coal  chutes. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  engines  that  carry  those  ore  cars  are,  of  course, 
the  same  sort  of  engines  used  on  any  other  freight  ? 

Mr.  Bowmen.  Oh,  yes;  the  cars  are  moved  in  any  train. 

Mr,  Marble.  The  equipment  that  it  is  transported  with  then  could 
be  used  for  any  class  of  traffic  ? 

Mr,  Bo  WEN.  The  locomotives? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  BowEN,  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  no  car  shortage  on  your  division? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir, 

Mr,  Marble.  You  have  not  had  all  this  summer? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  don't  know  why  the  car  shortage  is  on  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir ;  I  don't  know  why. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  explain  that  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  I  can  not. 

Mr,  Marble,  You  do  not  think  that  the  complaints  are  idle  that  the 
farmers  send  in. 

Mr.  Bowen.  I  do  not  think  that  they  are  idle,  but  there  are  some 
complaints  that  are  made  that  I  do  not  think  are  just. 

Mr.  Marble.  Along  what  lines  would  you  think  so? 

Mr.  BowEN.  We  have  had  complaints  from  different  elevators  at 
our  stations,  and  we  have  sent  our  car  agent.  We  have  a  man  who 
goes  over  the  division  and  simply  looks  alter  these  complaints.     Once 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  163 

and  a  while  we  would  receive  a  complaint  from  an  elevator  company 
that  their  a^nt  advises  they  can  not  ^t  a  car  and  they  are  blockea. 
Our  agent  or  j)orhaps  the  assistant  superintendent  or  perhaps  niyself 
will  visit  the  place  and  find  that  they  are  blm'ked  on  one  kina  of  grain 
only.     Now,  convplaints  of  this  kincf  I  do  iu>t  think  are  just. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  are  individual  complaints  of  that  kind  to  which 
you  take  exceptions  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  a  line  of  elevators  is  filled  with  grain  and  if 
they  have  deposited  grain  beside  the  track  in  open  bins  and  have 
made  demand  for  from  twenty  to  thirty  days  for  cars  and  have  not 
been  able  to  get  tliem,  would  you  consicier  a  complaint  on  such  facts 
to  be  just? 

Mr.  Bowen.  It  might  be  from  one  point  of  view,  and  from  another 
it  might  not  be. 

Mr.  Marbi£.  What  would  be  a  valid  excuse  for  a  railroad  to  not 
furnish  cars  in  such  a  case? 

Mr.  Bowen.  I  think  the  expansion  of  the  country  and  the  increase 
in  business  would  be  a  valid  excuse  for  such  a  thing. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  should  it  be  that  in  your  country  there  is  no 
shortage  of  cars — neither  delay  nor  shortage  of  cars — when  in  all 
these  districts  from  Duluth  out  througli  North  Dakota  there  is  a 
manifest  shortage  of  cars  so  far  as  the  shippers  are  concvrned,  be- 
cause they  are  unable  to  get  them  ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  We  make  our  own  empties,  as  I  stated  before,  and  as 
a  rule,  taking  all  of  our  little  towns  along  will  have  carloads  set  out 
from  day  to  day  enough  to  supply  their  wants. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  it  may  arise  from  a  difference  in  man- 
agement ? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No;  I  do  not  think  it  can. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  do  not  want  you  to  criticise  your  fellows  in  rail- 
road work,  but  I  am  anxious  to  know  just  what  the  reason  is. 

Mr.  liowEX.  I  do  not  think  that  is  it.  I  do  not  think  the  dilference 
in  management  does  it,  but  the  fact  that  we  are  fortunate  in  having 
carloads  come  in  to  unload  and  supply  the  elevators  with.  That  is 
our  good  fortune,  whereas  these  little  western  towns  ivally  don't 
get  many  carloads,  and  for  their  supply  have  to  depend  upon  the 
quantity  furnished  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  should  those  empties  come  from? 

Mr.  Bowen.  Well,  they  would  come  from  the  shippers.  The  peo- 
ple who  load  the  cars  and  release  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Might  it  not  Im  that  there  was  a  pi-eference  in  freight 
and  for  certain  commodities  which  carry  high  rates  there  is  abso- 
lutely no  lack  of  cars,  but  on  certain  other  conunodities.  which  carrj' 
a  low  rate  there  is  a  deficit  as  to  the  car  supply  at  the  present  time. 

Mr.  Bowen.  No;  I  do  not  think  so.  I  think  our  couunodity — 
grain — is  one  of  the  best  commodities  we  can  handle. 

Mr.  Marble.  Undoubtedly;  but  it  is  a  staple,  and  grain  you  are 
sure  to  handle,  are  you  not,  eventually!'  If  is  not  something  that 
anylKKly  else  can  take  away  from  you. 

Air.  Bowen.  Oh,  yes;  others  can  take  it  away  from  us. 

Mr.  Makblk.  CVrtainly  not  at  nonconi|H*ting  points. 

Mr.  HowKx.  I  do  not  know  as  to  noncomi)eting  jKiints,  but  our 
whole  line  is  practically  competitive. 


164  GAR  SH0BTA6E. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  a  good  many  places  where  it  would  not 
be  so? 

Mr.  Bo  WEN.  Oh,  no. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  You  have  not  any  explanation  to  give  us  as  to  con- 
ditions that  prevail  in  the  North,  as  distinct  from  conditions  that 
prevail  in  the  South  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  No,  sir. 

Mr,  Marbi^.  That  is  all.  Oh,  yes;  just  one  question.  Do  you 
understand  that  it  is  the  policy  of  the  road  at  all  that  a  town  shall 
have  as  many  cars  to  load  out  as  it  ships  in,  so  that  the  road  will  haul 
fewer  cars  both  ways  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  think  it  is  the  policy  of  any  company  or  firm  to  load 
a  wagon  or  car,  whichever  it  may  be,  at  the  point  unloaded,  if  they 
can,  without  making  an  empty  car  haul. 

Mr.  Marble.  Exactly.  And  if  a  town  does  not  ship  in  as  many 
cars  as  it  ships  out,  it  will  have  to  suffer,  because  they  have  no  empties 
to  load  and  ship  out. 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  think  they  would  have  cause  of  complaint  if  they 
were  discriminated  against. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  has  been  a  good  deal  of  construction  out  west 
this  year? 

Mr.  BowEN.  I  think  so;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  involves  the  shipment  of  railroad  equipment 
out,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  not  that  account  for  a  good  many  empties  out 
there? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Well,  a  great  deal  of  the  material  shipped  for  the  con- 
struction of  the  road  is  on  flat  cars  and  gondolas,  which,  of  course, 
could  not  handle  grain. 

Mr.  Marble,  Don't  they,  in  building  up  toward  the  Pacific  coast, 
in, getting  new  machinery,  do  they  or  do  they  not  ship  in  about  as 
much  freight  from  the  East  as  they  have  to  ship  out,  as  a  usual  case? 

Mr.  Bo  WEN.  No;  I  do  not  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  a  new  country  does  not  ship  in  as  much 
freight  as  the  freight  that  they  have  to  ship  out,  as  compared  with 
an  old  country? 

Mr.  Bowt:n.  No;  because  a  new  country  has  much  more  grain  to 
handle,  while  generally  with  us  the  farmers  have  gone  into  diversified 
farming,  and  the  grain  is  not  handled  there  that  used  to  be. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  might  explain  it. 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  It  is  used  as  feed  in  your  country,  the  grain  and  farm 
products,  and  fed  to  cattle  and  horses  and  live  stock,  and  farmers 
ship  them  out  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  And  that  condenses  the  carloads? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes,  sir.  And  distributes  it  over  a  different  area,  and 
different  shipments. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  same  effect  could  be  brought  about — the 
effect  that  is  brought  about  by  transfer  could  be  very  well  brought 
about  by  quicker  movement  of  cars  on  the  part  of  the  railroad  carry- 
ing to  point  of  destination  and  bringing  them  hjick. 

Mr.  BowEN.  Why,  I  do  not  believe  that  I  understand  you. 


CAB   SHOBTAOE.  165 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  takes,  we  will  sav,  fifteen  or  twenty  days 
to  take  a  train  load  of  wheat  from  Grand  F'orks  to  Dulnth — per- 
haps a  little  less  than  that  on  the  average.  There  is  a  great  demand 
for  cars  in  North  Dakota.  Is  not  it  practicable  to  take  these  trains 
from  Grand  Forks  to  Duluth  faster  than  the  time  they  are  now  car- 
ried and  bring  back  the  empties  for  the  grain  in  North  Dakota,  which 
demands  them,  and  so  have  a  sufficient  supply  of  cars  for  the  people 
in  Dakota  i 

Mr.  BuwBN.  I  think  that  is  the  way  tlie  business  is  handled  up 
there. 

Commissioner  I^ne.  That  is  the  way  it  ought  to  be  handled. 

Mr.  HowEN.  I  think  tliat  is  the  way  it  is  handled  for  whatever 
conmiodities  may  be  going  west  out  of  Duluth.  It  would  not  be 
policy  to  take  an  empty  out  when  you  could  send  it  back  loaded.  It 
costs  just  as  much  and  takes  as  long  to  handle  an  empty  car  as  a 
loaded  car. 

Commissioner  Lane.  So  far  as  the  North  Dakota  products  are 
concerned,  if  the  car  went  through  and  if  you  would  take  the  car 
that  was  loaded  with  grain  going  eastward  and  stop  it  at  Duluth, 
and  take  on  coal,  and  then  send  it  back  beyond  North  Dakota — took 
it  to  a  farther  western  point,  as  an  emergency,  through  the  Dakotas, 
they  might  not  be  available  for  the  purposes  of  Dakota? 

Mr.  BowEN.  No;  I  would  not 

Commissioner  Lane.  ^Vhat  I  am  getting  at  is  this:  If  it  is  not  pos- 
sible by  expediting  trains  and  making  them  move  faster  to  make 
cars  available  for  two  loads  instead  of  one? 

Mr.  BowEN.  That  brings  out  the  point  that  if  you  take  trains  in 
order  to  move  fast — we  will  say  cut  them  down  to  a  greater  extent 
than  what  we  have,  instead  of  running  one  train  run  two  trains  in 
each  direction,  on  account  of  the  increased  number  of  trains,  it  would 
congest  the  ordinary  lines  and  you  could  not  get  them  over  the  road 
to  advantage. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  cars  do  you  put  in  a  train  ordi- 
narily ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Our  trains  will  average  about  40  cars. 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  Loaded  cars? 

Mr.  BowEN.  On  my  division ;  yes,  sir. 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  At  what  rate  do  they  generally  haul  40  cars 
to  the  train  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  We  have  trains  that  are  scheduled  a  little  hotter  than 
16  miles  an  hour,  including  stops  and  all,  and  with  that  kind  of  a 
train  that  would  be  about  1,500  tons. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  not  your  average — that  is  high  speed  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  A  high  speed  train. 

Commissioner  Lane.   >Miat  is  the  ordinair  speed? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Our  local  trains  are  scheduled  about  9  miles  an  hour. 
We  figure,  on  our  trains,  to  handle  tonnage  and  make  10  miles  an 
hour. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  hold  cars  until  you  can  make  up  a  train 
of  about  45  cars? 

Mr.  BowEN.  We  do  not  have  to  hold  them. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  have  to  hold  them? 

Mr.  Bowen.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  your  practice? 


166  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Bo\vEN.  Everything  is  turned  over  to  us  from  connecting  divi- 
sions almost  in  solid  trains. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  you  don't  have  to  break  them  up? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Yes;  we  have  to  break  them  up  and  set  them  in  and 
maJ^e  them  up  in  station  order. 

Commissioner  Lane.  When  you  remake  a  train,  you  put  in  about 
the  same  nimiber  of  cars  as  came  in  ? 

Mr.  Bo  WEN.  Yes;  the  cars  are  just  the  same  all  over  the  line. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  policy  of  your  division  as  to  the 
movement  of  cars  of  freight  that  originate  on  your  division?  Do 
you  let  cars  stand  for  a  week  or  ten  days  until  you  can  make  up  a 
train? 

Mr.  BowEN.  No,  sir;  our  local  trains  all  start  out  of  terminals 
light  enough  to  pick  up  the  loads  every  day.  Our  through  trains 
don't  stop  to  pick  them  up  at  intermediate  points,  except  in  cases  of 
damage  to  a  car. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  have  no  idea,  of  course,  as  to  the  number 
of  cars  set  out  as  damaged  ? 

Mr.  BowEN.  Oh,  no ;  but  the  percentage  is  very  small. 

Connnissioner  Lane.  The  percentage  is  very  small  on  your  division  ? 

Mr.  Bo  WEN.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

Harley  S.  Grover,  called  as  a  witness  and  being  duly  sworn,  was 
examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Grover,  where  do  you  reside? 

Mr.  Grover.  Lisbon,  N.  Dak. 

Mr.  Marble.  AMiere  is  Lisbon? 

Mr.  Grover.  Fifty-six  miles  southwest  of  Fargo,  on  the  Fargo 
Southwestern,  a  branch  of  the  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  a  grain-marketing  point? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  elevators  have  you  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Five  elevators  and  a  flouring  mill. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  your  elevators  been  supplied  with  cars  this 
year? 

Mr.  Grover.  No,  sir;  not  sufficiently. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  any  of  them  been  filled  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Ml*.  Marble.  Any  grain  on  the  ground? 

Mr.  Grover.  No  grain  on  the  ground. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  been  able  to  buy  all  season  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  all  of  them  been  closed  at  any  time? 

Mr.  Grover.  There  has  been  a  few  days  that  there  was  a  few  eleva- 
tors that  were  not  able  to  take  any  grain.  As  often  as  thev  could 
secure  a  car,  then  they  take  in  the  amount  of  grain  they  loaded  out. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  the  farmers  ship  from  your  station  without  sell- 
ing to  the  elevator? 

Mr.  Grover.  They  would  if  they  could  get  cars.  They  have  not 
been  able  to  get  cars.    The  fact  is  we  have  a  farmers'  loading  plat- 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  167 

form,  but  farmers  have  not  been  able  to  get  one  car  during  the  whole 
reason. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  tried  to? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  sold  more  grain  to  the  elevators  than  they 
would  have  done  if  they  could  get  cars? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  have  been  able  to  sell  to  the  elevators  all  that 
they  chose? 

Mr.  Grover.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Some  of  the  time  they  could  not  take  their  grain  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir;  the  farmers  would  find  out — they  nave  rural 
deliveries,  and  thev  would  find  out  when  the  elevators  could  take  tlie 
grain.  Had  the  elevators  been  able  to  take  in  the  grain  or  had  they 
been  able  to  secure  cars,  their  shipments  would  have  been  larger. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  farmers  been  able  to  sell  more  grain  than 
they  have  been  able  to  ship? 

Mr.  Grover.,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  the  effect  upon  the  market — upon  the 
price  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Ransom  County  raises  more  durum  wheat  than  any 
county  in  the  State,  and  during  the  month  of  November  the  Duluth 
price — I  think  nearly  all  the  month — was  74  cents,  while  the  Decem- 
oer  price  was  64  cents.  So  that  the  elevators  there  were  unable  to 
secure  cars,  and  they  had  to  purchase  the  wheat  on  Decemlier  options 
all  through  the  month  of  November. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  Commission  will  remember,  in  the  grain  investi- 

fation  we  had  that  testimony  from  the  elevator  men.  They  were 
uying  durum  on  a  very  wide  margin,  because  they  could  not  fairly 
hope  to  get  it  to  market  in  November. 

Mr.  Grover.  That  made  &  difference  of  about  9  cents  a  bushel. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  complaint  of  the  length  of.  time  cars 
were  in  transit? 

Mr.  (i rover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble,  ^^'bat  was  that  complaint? 

Mr.  (irover.  The  Lisbon  Elevator  Company  loaded  car  No.  .5603 
on  October  13,  for  Duluth,  and  it  was  unloaded  on  November  2G, 
and  the  other  elevators  also  informed  me  that  they  had  the  same 
trouble. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  that  an  exceptional  case? 

Mr.  Grover.  This  one— yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  ordinary  time? 

Mr.  Grover.  Last  year  we  could  get  returns  easily  in  ten  days,  but 
this  year  it  has  run  from  twenty  to  thirty  days. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Does  that  mean  it  takes  cars  twenty  to  thirty 
days  to  get  to  Duluth  and  be  unloaded  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  There  seems  to  be  considerable  time  elapse  between 
the  time  the  car  arrives  at  Duluth  and  is  inspected  and  the  time  it  is 
unloaded. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  is  not  inspected  in  Duluth,  is  it? 

Mr.  Grover.  Nearly  all  of  it.  I  undei-stand  of  late — I  have  a 
letter  here  now — one  car  was  inspected  at  Staples.  This  is  something 
new  to  me.    I  do  not  know  the  reason  why. 


168  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  experience  with  cars  being  loaded  and 
not  being  hauled  out  promptly  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tell  us  of  that. 

Mr.  Grover.  I  came  from  Buttzville,  a  station  about  8  miles  from 
Lisbon,  last  evening,  and  it  seems  that  on  December  8  there  were  5 
empty  cars  put  in  on  the  siding.  They  were  simply  nut  in,  I  sup- 
pose, to  get  out  of  the  way;  and  the  elevator — the  Great  Western 
elevator  agent — noticed  the  cars.  He  hired  a  farmer,  with  his  team, 
to  haul  the  cars  to  his  elevator.  He  loaded  the  5  cars  on  the  8th  day 
of  December,  and  yesterday  as  I  passed  through  there  the  5  cars  were 
standing,  loaded,  on  the  side  track. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  been  billed,  do  you  know — ^billed  out? 

Mr.  Grover.  I  did  not  ask  the  agent.  I  think  they  were,  no  doubt, 
because  there  is  an  agent  at  that  point. 

Mr.  Marble.  Any  other  instances  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir;  several  instances  of  where  the  cars  were 
loaded  and  left  on  the  track  three  or  four  days  before  being  taken 
out. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  got  a  memorandum  here,  "  No  freight  in 
Lisbon  until  Monday,  the  10th,  then  only  two  cars  of  coal."  Is  that 
correct  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  No  freight  at  all? 

Mr.  Grover.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  trouble? 

Mr.  Grover.  Heavy  snow.  We  have  in  that  locality  about  1^  to  2 
feet  of  snow,  and  I  think  the  freight  was  stalled.  Heretofore  I  have 
noticed  that  the  engines  have  always  had  the  small  snowplow  on, 
and  this  winter  they  have  not  been  put  on  their  engines;  and  my 
attention  was  called,  while  taking  the  train  last  evening,  to  the  fact 
that  the  large  cars — the  furniture  cars — they  are  large  cars,  and  they 
are  about  a  foot  and  a  half  wider  than  the  engine,  and  also  they  are 
low,  so  that  an  engine  without  a  pilot  snowplow  can  not  pull  through 
a  small  amount  of  snow.  It  will  stall  them,  because  the  engine  will 
pass  over  the  drift  and  the  cars  will  catch  hold  of  the  drift  and 
simply  stop;  and  this  small  train  got  stalled  in  that  maimer,  and 
finally,  after  about  two  days'  work,  they  pulled  out  two  cars  and 
took  them  into  Lisbon,  being  the  first  two  we  have  received — two  cars 
received  Monday  being  the  only  two  that  have  arrived  since  the 
Monday  preceding. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  being  your  idea  that  if  the  engines  were  equipped 
as  they  usually  are  that  would  not  have  occurred? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  investigated  the  condition  of  the  engines? 

Mr.  Grover.  I  have  heard  comment  on  it  several  times  and  have 
talked  with  railroad  employees ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  talked  with  engineers  and  firemen — ^men 
acquainted  with  the  engines? 

Mr.  Grover.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  railroad  employees  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Employees  at  Lisbon. 

Mr.  Marble.  Their  observation  being  that  the  engines  were  in  bad 
order? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  169 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  did  not  talk  with  the  engine  men  I 

Mr.  Grover.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  mill  has  been  shut  down  there,  hasn't  it? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long? 

Mr.  Grover.  The  mill  has  shut  down  once  or  twice  for  a  short 
time,  but  it  just — I  think,  Saturday  night — they  closed  down  for  an 
indefinite  time.  The  mill  has  been  running  night  and  day.  They 
closed  down  on  account  of  the  inability  to  secure  coal,  and  also  on 
account  of  their  inability  to  secure  cars  to  ship  the  flour,  their  store- 
houses being  full  at  the  present  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  grain  is  in  store  in  your  town — do  you 
know? 

Mr.  Groves.  About  220,000  bushels,  which  is  the  capacity  of  the 
five  elevators  and  the  mill. 

Mr.  Marble.  Just  about  full  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble.  Do  you  know  how  much  grain  there  is  in  the  coun- 
try— what  percentage  of  the  crop  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Mr.  Weiser — I  replied  to  Mr.  Weiser's  postal  card  that 
he  sent  out,  and  my  estimate  was  that  there  was  50  per  cent  in  the 
farmers'  hands,  and  10  per  cent  in  the  elevator  hands,  and  40  per 
cent  had  been  shipped  out;  and,  in  talking  with  othor  parlies,  they 
think  my  estimate  was  not  high  enough.  They  think  GO  per  cent  of 
the  grain  in  Ransom  County  is  in  the  farmers'  hands. 

JSlr.  Marble.  And  the  elevators  told  you  the  amount  of  grain  the 
elevators  have  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir;  one  agent  stated  that  he  believed  he  had  re- 
fused 20,000  bushels  of  grain ;  another  one  10,000  bushels,  on  account 
of  not  being  able  to  store  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  acquainted  with  the  coal  situation  in  your 
town  i 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  that — what  has  it  been  recently  ? 

Ml.  Grover.  I  do  not  know  that  there  lias  been  any  suffering,  but 
I  do  know  that  there  has  been  no  coal  for  sale  in  Lisbon  since  Monday 
a  week  ago  up  until  yesterday,  and  then  two  cars  arrived.  An  engine 
came  in  with  them.  They  dia  not  have  the  billing  of  the  cars.  One 
dealer  discovered  that  one  car  belonged  to  him  by  the  car  number 
and  immediately  opened  the  car,  and  farmers'  teams  lined  up.  I  saw 
with  my  own  eyes  teams  lined  up  waiting  to  get  coal,  and  by  night  the 
car  was  empty. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  talked  with  your  coal  men  or  investigated 
the  length  of  time  coal  has  been  in  transit  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir ;  we  received  a  statement  from  all  of  our  coal 
dealers. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  here? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  mislaid  the  statement 

Mr.  M^vRBLE.  First,  from  whom  does  that  statement  come? 

Mr.  Grover.  M.  O.  Colton,  a  fuel  dealer. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  it  made  for  the  purpose  of  this  investigation? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble.  And  given  to  j'ou  to  bring  here? 


170  CAB    SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  G ROVER.  Yes,  sir;  at  my  request 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  that  statement? 

Mr.  Grover.  He  claims  to  have  received  19  cars  of  fuel  since  Sep- 
tember 1.  He  has  cars  shipped  by  M.  A.  Hanna  &  Co.,  St.  Paul, 
December  3 — shipped  from  Superior,  but  not  received.  One  car  was 
shipped  on  the  4th  and  1  on  the  6th.  He  has  orders  in  for  9  cars,  be- 
sides 2  cars  of  wood  shipped  from  Northome  the  6th  and  8th  of 
December,  and  1  car  from  Cromwell,  Minn.,  on  the  3d  of  December, 
and  not  received. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  statement  was  made  out  when? 

Mr.  Grovbr.  On  the  15th  of  December. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  investigated  the  condition  at  the  banks 
in  your  town? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  just — it  is  simply  the  bank  I  am 
interested  in,  the  State  Bank  of  Lisbon,  of  which  I  am  cashier.  Our 
loans  have  increased  $35,000  since  September  1.  On  September 
1  our  loans  were  $285,000,  and  to-day  they  are  $320,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  j'our  deposits?     Are  they  increasing? 

Mr.  Grover.  Deposits  have  decreased  in  the  past  sixty  days.  They 
increased  during  the  month  of  September,  but  have  decreased  during 
the  months  of  October,  November,  and  December. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  does  that  compare  with  last  year? 

Mr.  Grotir.  Just  the  oppasite.  As  a  rule,  our  deposits  increase 
as  soon  as  the  grain  conmiences  to  move,  and  our  loans  decrease.  I 
have  been  connected  with  the  bank  I  am  in  for  the  past  twenty  years, 
and  this  has  not  occurred  before.  The  loans  have  always  decreased 
during  the  fall  and  deposits  increased  heretofore. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  here  a  statement  from  Elliott  station ;  that 
is  correct,  is  it? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  I  will  read  it  as  a  part  of  your  testimony : 

Elliott  station.  8  miles  west  of  Lisbon.  Agent  Andrews,  of  Andrews  &. 
Gage.  Elliott,  informs  me  that  he  secured  in  November  2  cars  for  grain  and  2 
cars  so  far  in  December.  Has  a  bin  of  hot  flax,  and  gave  a  rush  order  eight  or 
nine  days  ago,  and  can  not  get  cars  to  ship.  Has  orders  in  for  5  cars  of  fuel ; 
1  car  of  coal  shipped  on  November  28  and  car  of  wood  on  the  r»th  not  yet 
received.  No  fuel  in  the  town  and  several  farmers  in  to-<lay  for  fuel :  one 
farmer  that  was  all  out  he  loaned  a  barrel  of  coal  out  of  his  own  bin. 

Ira  Warren  has  shipped  2  cars  from  Stirum.  Stinun,  10  miles ;  Elliott,  3  miles. 
Several  farmers  have  been  able  to  secure  cars  at  Stirum,  but  none  at  Elliott. 

Three  elevators  at  Elliott ;  capacity.  20,000,  20,000.  and  10.000  bushels ;  total, 
50,000  tKishels,  and  all  full  and  can  take  in  no  more  until  cars  are  delivered. 

(The  above  was  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  2  to  Mr.  Grover's  testi- 
mony," and  is  filed  herewith.) 

Mr.  Marble.  This  is  a  statement  [handing  paper  to  witness]  show- 
ing conditions  at  Lisbon,  which  you  have  written  out? 

Mr.  Grower.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  statements  are  true  ? 

Mr.  Gro\'er.  Yes,  sir ;  this  statement  was  made  out  by  the  secretary 
of  the  Sorenson  Milling  Company. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  the  purposes  of  this  investigation? 

Mr.  Grover,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  sent  down  by  you? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  171 

Mr.  Marble  (reading) : 

Lisbon.  Dcrrmher  15,  JHOH. 

A  few  farts  In  n»gard  to  the  railroad  oonipany  at  l.istM)ii.  SIiuh'  S^'ptfi'ilHT  1, 
IfKKJ,  the  Sorciison  Milliug  Company  have  had  2!>  cars  for  urain  at  Lisbon,  and 
for  flour  we  liave  ni>t  !md  enough  to  keep  us  koIuk-  We  had  to  l)uild  a  new  ware- 
house that  h<»hls  14  <'arloads  of  flour,  and  that  Is  full  and  all  the  room  we  have 
at  the  mill.  If  we  had  not  built  this  warehouse  we  would  have  had  to  stop  the 
mill  six  wjH'ks  ago.  Up  to  the  present  time  we  have  had  to  close  our  mill  down 
twice  for  the  want  of  coal,  and  to-day.  the  l.'»th  of  December,  we  have  clost»d  for 
good,  as  we  are  out  of  c-oal  and  nothing  to  k(H>p  the  boiler  from  freezing  up. 
And  that  with  a  coal  contract  for  5.0(X)  ttais  with  the  M.  A.  Hanna  Coal  Com- 
pany, of  St  Paul,  and  they  tell  us  they  have  plenty  (»f  i-oal,  but  can't  get  the 
cars  to  ship  out  in.  We  hijve  Imd  the  shipping  dirtn-tions  on  a  car  of  coal  since 
the  10th  of  December  and  the  car  hais  not  rea<-li«Hl  us  to-<lay.  the  17th  of  DtH'em- 
ber.  Last  week  we  had  to  loan  to  different  parties  to  k«'cp  them  from  fre<'zing 
three  to  fonr  sacks  of  coal,  and  now  we  are  all  out  and  not  a  p<mnd  of  coal  in 
the  city. 

In  FInglevale.  N.  Dak.,  we  have  a  new  elevator  of  40,000  poimds  <'apacity.  and 
up  to  tills  writing  we  have  had  just  «!  empty  cars  spottwl  at  the  elevator,  and 
we  have  lHH»n  full  of  grain  for  four  wtH'ks.  Just  to  show  how  son)e  of  the  cars 
we  have  loaded  out  of  Lisbon  travel,  we  give  the  number  <  f  2  cars,  that  you  can 
see  how  fast  the  time  from  LislK>n  to  Duluth  Is.  On  the  l.'Uh  of  Octol)er  we 
ship|>ed  Soo  ear  No.  U'2SS  from  here  to  Duluth  and  this  car  arrivwi  at  Duiuth  on 
the  -7th  of  Noveml)er.  On  OctolM»r  27  we  shipi>ed  a  <-ar,  No.  :W73^^.  and  this  car 
arrivwl  here  on  the  27th  of  NovemlH>r.  This  is  Just  a  few  of  the  cases  where 
the  cars  have  b<»en  so  long  on  the  road.  Now,  all  macaroni  wheat  after  the  10th 
of  NovendKT  in  Duluth  was  from  70  to  73  tvnts  jxt  bushel  for  all  that  arrived 
in  Duluth  in  November.  On  account  of  not  being  able  to  get  cars  to  ship  the 
wheat  out  In  we  c<mld  not  sell  any  at  this  price,  and  all  tlu'y  would  give  us  for 
the  same  wheat  for  Dei-ember  defivery  was  (>4  cents,  a  dlfferencv  of  0  to  5)  cents 
loss  to  the  elevator  and  the  farmer  i>er  bushel.  More  to  the  farmers,  as  the 
elevators  lM)ught  most  of  the  grain  on  the  Dtn-ember  basis,  as  they  knew  they 
eouhl  not  depend  on  the  cars  to  ship  out  in.  South  Ransom  County  raises  alM)ut 
r),00O.tH>il  bushels  of  Durum ;  the  lo.><s  to  the  farmers  is  abimt  $:iOO,000  by  the 
railroad  company  not  furnishing  cars. 

Yours.  resiKH'tfully,  Sorenson  Milxino  Co. 

By  II.  SoBENsoN,  Secretary. 

(The  above  wa.s  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  3,  to  Mr.  Grover's  testimony, 
and  is  fiU'd  herewith.) 

Mr.  M.Miiu.K.  Thi.s  is  a  statement  [handing  pai)er  to  witness] 
prepaiv*!  by  the  Lisbon  P^levator  Company  for  you  to  bring  down. 
The  statement  is  as  foUows: 

LisiHJN,  N.  Dak.,  Drcemhcr  !.'>,  liiOd. 
Cars  loaded:  1905,  from  Septeml)er  1  to  De<'enil>er  I.'*.  t»7 ;  1000,  from  Septem- 
ber 1  to  I>eceml)er  15.  40.  Have  had  1  car  so  far  this  month  (1  car  December 
3).  Elevator  has  been  full  since  Septeml>er  1.5.  ('()uld  do  no  business  except 
when  I  could  get  a  car  and  that  would  l)e  while  filling  a  car,  which  took  froni 
three  hours  to  one  day.  Have  l)eeii  asking  for  cars  all  the  time.  Railroad 
company  has  l»een  very  slack  alnmt  taking  out  cars  when  loaded.  Many  of 
them  stand  on  the  track  here  from  two  or  thrt*  days  to  two  or  three  wwks  be- 
fore l>eing  taken  out.  Most  of  the  carloads  coming  into  Lisbon  have  Ix'en  mi- 
loaded  i>romptly,  but  in  some  ca.ses  it  would  l»e  two  or  three  days  liefore  the 
empty  car  would  he  placed  so  it  could  be  loaded.  All  cars  have  been  loaded 
promptly  when  placed. 

(The  above  wa.s  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  4  "  to  Mr.  Grover's  testi- 
mony, and  is  fiUnl  herewith). 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  are  two  letters  to  Mr.  W.  Rawson,  of  Iiisl)on, 
N.  Dak.     The  letters  are  as  follows : 

McCabthv  Hkothebs  Compant, 

Duluth,  Minn.,  \ovemher  2S,  1906. 
W.  R>W80N,  LUbwt,  y.  Dak. 

Deab  Sir:  The  railroad  companies  have  been  giving  miserable  service  this 
fall,  and  conditions  in  the  yards  at  the  heads  of  the  lakes  seem  to  be  worse 


172  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

than  almost  any  other  place.  Cars  Inspected  over  a  month  ago  have  not  yet 
reached  the  elevators  to  which  they  were  ordered.  Your  ear  325C  was  inspected 
on  the  7th  and  ordered  to  the  elevator.  The  railroad  company,  however,  has 
not  yet  got  it  there.  We  have  made  numerous  kicks  and  written  to  them,  but 
so  far  without  effect.  We  are  doing  all  we  can,  but  it  seems  impossible  to 
make  any  kick  tell  with  the  railroad  this  year. 
Yours,  truly, 

McCarthy  Bbos.  Co., 

J.  S.  McCabthy,  Vice-President. 


McCabthy  Brothers  Company, 

Grain  Merchants, 
Duluth,  Minn.,  November  26,  1906. 
W.  Raw  SON,  Lisbon,  N.  Dak. 

Dear  Sir:  Inclosed  herewith  we  send  you  memo,  of  the  grade  and  dockage 
of  your  car  durum  33433.  This  car  was  sampled  for  inspection  at  Staples.  The 
railroad  company  have  been  giving  miserable  service  this  year,  and  we  hope 
they  will  get  it  to  the  elevator  in  time  to  be  unloaded  this  month.  We  were 
unable  to  sell  it  at  the  November  price  without  guaranteeing  that  the  car  would 
be  unloaded  this  month,  and  under  the  circumstances  it  would  be  unsafe  to  do 
this.  The  only  thing  to  do  was  to  send  it  to  the  elevator  with  instructions  to  be 
unloaded  as  quickly  as  possible,  and  as  soon  as  it  is  unloaded  we  will  sell  at  the 
best  possible  price  for  you,  which  we  hope  will  be  November  price. 
Yours,  truly, 

McCarthy  Brothers  Co., 
J.  S.  McCarthy, 

Vice-President. 


The  John  Miller  Company, 

Grain  Commission, 
Duluth,  Minn.,  December  1.  1906. 
Mr.  W.  Rawson,  Lisbon,  N.  Dale. 

Dear  Sir  :  We  have  your  favor  of  the  30th.  If  you  can  send  us  affidavit  that 
you  loaded  in  the  car  more  tlian  was  weighed  in  here  we  can  get  the  railroad 
to  pay  for  it.  We  have  not  yet  been  able  to  learn  what  happened  to  the  car.  it 
came  in  in  the  original  car  and  was  inspected,  but  between  that  point  and  the 
elevator  the  car  was  evidently  wrecked  and  the  grain  was  ti*ansferred  into 
another  car,  and  there  was  undoubtedly  some  loss  in  the  transfer.  We  have 
never  seen  such  work  as  we  have  had  in  the  switching  of  cars  this  fall.  We 
have  yet  cars  out  as  far  back  as  October  15  that  have  not  been  sent  to  the  ele- 
vators, although  we  have  gone  so  far  as  to  take  the  matter  up  with  the  general 
office  at  St.  Paul.  If  we  can  have  something  on  which  to  base  a  claim  we  do 
not  see  how  they  can  make  any  excuse  for  not  allowing  it 
Very  truly,  yours. 

The  John  Miller  Co., 

Per   WiLLARD. 

These  are  letters  received  by  Mr.  Rawson,  from  commission  houses 
in  the  city  of  Duluth,  are  they  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  All  from  Duluth? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  are  signed  by  the  commission  houses? 

Mr.  Grover.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  think  that  is  all. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Just  one  question.  You  spoke  about  some  engines  that 
were  without  a  snow  plow.  It  might  be  for  aught  you  know  that 
those  engines  have  just  been  taken  off  of  construction  trains  of  the 
railroad  company,  to  help  this  situation,  might  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Grover.  It  seemed  to  be  on  regular  trains.  Possibly  they  had 
been  taken  off  the  construction  trains. 


OAB  SHORTAGE.  173 

Mr.  BuNN.  Might  have  been  taken  off  the  construction  trains  in 
order  to  help  the  people  of  North  Dakota  I 
Mr.  GwivER.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Marble.  Some  extra  trains? 
Mr.  GRinER.  No;  regular  trains. 
Mr.  Marble.  It  might  be  true.     That  is  alL 

Earnest  Billings,  called  as  a  witness  and  being  duly  sworn,  was 
examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  at  Lisbon,  N.  Dak.? 

Mr.  Billings.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  You  are  a  farmer? 

Mr.  Billings.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  are  you  interested  in  the  Farmers'  Elevator 
Company  at  Lisbon? 

Mr.  Billings.  I  have  got  a  few  shares  in  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  an  officer  in  that  company  ? 

Mr.  Billings.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  office? 

Mr.  Billings.  One  of  the  directors. 

Mr.  Marbjj:.  You  have  heard  the  te.stimony  of  the  gentleman  who 
was  just  on  the  stand.  Is  that  substantially  correct  as  to  conditions 
in  your  town? 

Mr.  Billings.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  anything  you  can  add  to  that  in  your  expe- 
rience? 

Mr.  Billings.  I  do  not  know  as  I  can  add  very  much.  I  have  a 
few  statements  that  perhaps  he  did  not  give. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  are  those? 

Mr.  BiLiNGS.  Those  are  the  conditions  of  farmers — concerning 
the  Farmers'  Elevator. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  is  that? 

Mr.  Billings.  On  account  of  the  cars  not  being  furnished  as  we 
ordered  them,  and  not  having  as  many  as  we  needed,  really.  In  the 
month  of  September  we  had  more  cars  than  later  on.  In  October 
we  had  a  few  less  cars.     In  December  we  only  had  three  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  was  curtailing  your  business? 

Mr.  Billings.  It  was,  to  perhaps  40,000  bushels  for  the  season. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  mean  there  was  40,000  bushels  you  would  have 
bought,  but  could  not? 

Mr.  Billings.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  And  you  also  agree  that  that  lowered  the  price  to  the 
farmer  ? 

Mr.  Billings.  Why,  it  certainly  did.  We  could  not  get  rid  of  the 
wheat.  We  could  not  ship  it,  and  we  had  to  pay  the  December 
market. 

Mr.  Marble.  Paid  less? 

Mr.  Billings.  Yas,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Six  to  9  cents  less  on  durum? 

Mr.  Billings.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  wheat  do  you  raise? 

Mr.  Billings.  I,  myself,  had  about  15.000  bushels. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  sold  that  wheat? 

Mr.  Billings.  I  have  not. 


174 


CAR   SHORTAGE. 


Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  tried  to  ship  it? 

Mr.  Billings.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Could  you  get  cars? 

Mr.  Billings.  No,  sir;  I  have  several  times  asked  for  cars  and 
have  not  been  able  to  get  one. 

Mr.  Marble.  All  the  cars  were  given  to  the  elevators? 

Mr.  Billings.  Yes,  sir;  practically  all.  I  do  not  know  of  one  car 
being  shipped  by  a  farmer.  There  was  an  empty  in,  but  I  do  not  be- 
lieve the  farmer  got  his  car. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  far  as  you  know,  they  were  divided  equally  among 
the  elevators? 

Mr.  Billings.  YeSj  sir;  we  could  have  used  more  cars  than  some  of 
the  elevators.     We  did  not  get  any  more  than  the  rest  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  some  other  statement  you  wish  to  make? 

Mr.  Billings.  Here  is  a  statement  from  the  agent — from  the  man- 
ager of  the  Farmers'  Elevators.  These  are  the  numbers  of  the  cars 
as  thej'  came  in.  This  is  a  statement,  and  possibly,  if  you  would  read 
this,  it  would  help  me  out  a  good  deal.  I  could  hardly  see  the  writing 
good  enough. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  is  a  statement  to  the  board  of  directors  of  the 
Farmers'  Elevator  Company  giving  this  condition  substantially  as 
testified  to: 

Lisbon,  N.  Dak.,  December  14,  1906. 
To  the  Board  of  Directors,  Fanners^  Elevator  and  Mercantile  Company, 

Lisbon,  y.  Dak. 

Gentlemen  :  In  compliance  with  your  request,  I  herewith  give  you  a  complete 
statement  of  all  cars  received  by  me  from  the  Northern  Pacific  Railway  Com- 
pany to  be  loaded  and  shipped  from  September  1,  1906,  to  December  14,  i906 : 

Cars  received  and  loaded  for  the  month  of  September,  1906. 


Car  No. 

September  3 17597 

September  4 37420 

Do 45796 

Do 44251 

September  6 4150 

September  8 13345 

Do 34324 

September  13 37485 

September  11 17184 

Total,  17  cars. 


Car  No. 
September  15 7420 

Do 35686 

September  IS 37497 

September  19 19157 

Do 6a^W4 

September  26 33042 

Do 11001 

September  29 45464 


Cars  received  and  loaded  for  the  month  of  October,  1906. 


Car  No. 

October  1 5250 

Do 2610 

October  3 34429 

Do 44251 

October  4 :«9.32 

Do 8130 

October  8 5715 

Do 2718 

October  9 10488 

October  11 ;i0274 

October  12 3571 

October  13 45885 

Total,  24  cars. 


Car  No. 

Octoljer  13 45409 

Do 10644 

October  15 33395 

October  16 37997 

Do 38051 

October  20 5588 

Do 37307 

October  25 41579 

Do 18052 

October  27 65013 

October  2!> 4549 

Do 9i02 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  175 

Carg  received  and  loaded  for  the  month  of  November,  1906. 


Car  No. 

November  2 34104 

November  7 42415 

November  10 11122 

November  14_  ..I 13463 

Total,  8  care. 


Ca?  No. 

November  16 <5n02 

November  17 ST.'i'Jj 

November  22 r>K07 

Do . 4401X) 


Cars  received  and  loaded  for  the  month  of  December,  1906. 


Car  No. 
December  12 4236 


Car  No. 

December  7 9630 

December  8 41489 

Total.  3  cars. 

I  also  wish  to  state  In  connection  with  the  above  that  for  the  month  of  Sep- 
tenil)or  I  re<'p|ved  alwut  .'i<l.000  bushels  of  gralB.  and  for  October.  November,  and 
up  to  December  14.  42.(K)()  bushels  of  Kraln.  making  a  total  of  92.(X)0  bushels. 
If  cars  had  lK»cn  plentiful.  I  am  confident  In  saying  that  I  could  haAc  re<t»ivpd 
Just  as  much  grain  for  the  month  of  Octol>er  and  Noveml>er  as  I  did  in  tlie 
month  of  Sept«'ml)er,  which  would  have  Increased  our  re<'eipts  about  58.000 
bushels  of  grain. 

A.  C.  CooPEB,  Manager. 

P.  S. — I  wish  to  state  further  that  for  the  month  of  November  I  sold  11  cars 
contents  of  grnin.  but  was  only  able  to  get  8  cars,  and  con.«e(iuently  I  got  short 
at  Duluth  .'{.(KX)  bushels.  I  thought  when  selling  11  cars  for  the  month  of 
November  that  1  was  quite  conservative,  being  that  we  get  24  cars  for  Octol)er. 

A.  C.  C. 

This  is  a  statement  from  the  above  elevator,  giving  the  cars  for 
each  of  the  months : 

Lisbon,  N.  Dak.,  December  11,  1906. 
E.  Billings. 

Deab  Sib:  Number  of  care  for  September,  16;  for  October.  16;  for  Novem- 
l)er,  6;  to  Decern l>er  17,  3. 
And  no  handling  room  for  durum,  rye,  barley,  or  only  one  grade  of  wheat 

F.  C.  Rector,  Agent. 

(The  above  was  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  2  to  Mr.  Billings  testi- 
mony," and  is  herewith  filed.) 

Mr.  Marble.  You  had  a  statement  from  a  coal  dealer? 

Mr.  Billings.  Ye.s,  sir. 

Mr.  M.VRBLE.  AMiat  was  that? 

Mr.  BiLLixos.  On  the  2d  of  November  he  had  several  cars  of  coal 
ordered,  and  he  has  not  been  able  to  get  them  yet.  That  is  Frank 
Smith,  of  Li.sbon. 

Mr.  M.ARBLE.  Do  you  know  whether  they  have  been  shipped  ? 

Mr.  Billings.  N^o;  thev  have  not  been  shipped.  The  letters 
show — ^he  had  the  letters,  but  I  have  not  them  with  me — would  ship 
them  as  soon  as  they  could  get  cars;  have  not  been  able  to  get  cars 
yet. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(Witness  was  here  excused.) 

Albert  M.  Carlbi/)m,  called  as  a  witness  and  being  duly  sworn, 
was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  M.\rble.  Mr.  Carlblom,  you  re.side  at  Wimbledon,  N.  Dak.  ^ 

Mr.  Carlbix)m.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  road  is  that? 


176  CAB  SH0BTA6E. 

Mr.  Carlblom.  Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  and  Sault  Ste  Marie. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  business  ? 

Mr,  Carlblom.  General  merchandise  and  banking. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  acquainted  with  the  grain  situation  in  your 
town? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  with  the  car  supply*in  your  town  ? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  Yes;  a  little. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  how  has  the  car  supply  of  your  town  been  thi;- 
year? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  Well,  about  half  the  time  the  elevators  have  been 
closed  for  want  of  capacity.    There  are  three  elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  that  had  any  effect  on  the  price  paid  for  grain  ? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  I  think  it  has,  some. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  how  much  ? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  I  think  the  margin — they  both  had  a  larger  margin 
this  year  than  they  used  to. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  Do  you  know  how  much  larger? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  About  2  cents,  perhaps. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  because  of  the  shortage  of  cars,  do  you  know  ? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  Why,  the  people  seem  to  think  so  in  the  locality. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  the  elevator  men  say  so  ? 

Mr.  Oarlblom.  I  have  not  heard  them  say  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  any  statement  as  to  the  length  of  time 
it  took  cars  to  get  from  your  point  to  Duluth  ? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  No,  I  have  not. 

Mr.  I^Iarble.  You  have  not  looked  into  that? 

Mr.  Carlblo^i.  I  had  a  car  of  flour  ordered  from  Oaks  loaded  on 
Monday,  and  I  did  not  receive  it  for  six  days,  and  it  is  only  21  miles. 
I  received  the  shipping  bill  for  it.  It  is  now  been  in  the  yards  for 
nearly  six  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Twenty-one  miles  that  flour  has  to  travel? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  took  six  days  to  be  delivered  ? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble,  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  cars  being  loaded 
and  standing  on  the  track  after  being  loaded ;  did  you  notice  that  sort 
of  thing? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  No,  sir ;  not  there.  I  think  they  have  been  shipped 
out. 

Mr.  Marble,  "SVhat  is  the  coal  situation  in  your  town  ? 

Mr,  Carlblom,  Yesterday,  when  I  left  there,  I  found  there  was 
on  hand  three  tons  of  hard  coal.  We  have  not  had  any  soft  coal  for 
six  weeks ;  and  no  wood  for  about  six  weeks, 

Mr.  Mabrle.  How  long  would  3  tons  of  hard  coal  last  ? 

Mr.  Carlblom.  I  do  not  suppose  it  would  last  very  long;  I  suppose 
it  was  sold  yesterday. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  talk  with  your  coal  dealers  as  to  the  situa- 
tion? 

Mr,  Carlblom.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble,  What  did  they  tell  you? 

Mr,  Carlblom,  I  wrote  to  the  Forbes  Elevator  Company,  of  this 
city,  and  told  them  about  the  situation.  They  replied  they  had  had 
some  cars  in  transit  from  three  to  six  weeks,  and  that  they  could  not 
help  it;  that  the  railroads  could  not  get  it  through. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  177 

Mr.  Marble.  Cars  in  transit  from  three  to  six  weeks?     How  far 
are  you  from  Duluth? 
Mr.  Carlblom.  In  the  neighborhood  of  300  miles,  I  think. 
Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 
(Witness  was  excused.) 

John  Powers,  called  as  a  witness  and  being  duly  sworn,  was  ex- 
amined and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  name  is  John  Powers? 

Mr.  Powers.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  You  reside  at  Havana,  N.  Dak.  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  business,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  Well,  I  nm  a  creamery  there  and  a  wood  yard. 

Mr.  Marbix.  a  coal  yard  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  not  sell  coal  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  in  the  grain  business  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  acquainted  with  the  shipping  conditions  at 
your  town  this  fall  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  I  am  to  a  certain  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  AMiat  have  those  conditions  been? 

Mr.  Powers.  Well,  very  poor,  in  regard  to  getting  cars.    The  ele- 
vators claim  they  are  all  short  of  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  your  elevators  been  full  of  grain  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  Well,  they  have  been  full  most  all  fall,  but  there  is 
hardly  any  day  but  what  they  get  it  in — some  kinds  of  grain. 

Mr.  Marble.  Some  kinds  ? 

Mr.  PowTSRS.  There  are  some  kinds  that  they  could  not  take  in. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  the  kinds  that  they  could  not 
take  in  were  the  kinds  usually  marketed  at  your  town  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Marble.  They  got  filled  up  with  those  kinds  that  form  the  bulk 
raised  around  your  place? 

Mr.  PowTiRS.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  then  could  buy  no  more  of  that  sort  of  grain? 

Mr.  Powers.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Were  farmers  wanting  to  sell  grain  who  could  not? 

Mr.  Powers.  Well,  T  do  not  know  that  they  ever  had  to  take  any 
away  from  there — there  are  three  elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  what  the  price  has  been — ^how  that  has 
been  affected? 

Mr.  Powers.  Well,  I  hear  the  farmers  complaining  that  it  has 
reduced  the  price  by  having  a  scarcity  of  oars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  talked  witH  the  elevator  men  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  did  they  say? 

Mr.  Powers.  One  of  them  claimed  it  had  fell  off  a  point,  and  give 
them  a  bigger  margin. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  he  tell  you  how  much  bigger? 

Mr.  Powers.  No;  he  did  not  say. 
S.  Doc.  383,  J»-2 12 


178  CAR    SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  grain  is  marketed  at  your  town  in  a  year  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  About  120  cars,  they  told  me. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  railroad  are  you? 

Mr.  Powers.  The  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  on  what  branch  of  the  Great  Northern? 

Mr.  Powers.  The  Aberdeen  branch. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  I  ask  you  about  the  coal  situation  in  your 
locality  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  There  is  not  any  coal  there  at  present. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  are  you  burning  for  fuel? 

Mr.  Powers.  They  are  burning  wood.  There  is  no  coal  on  sale. 
A  car  came  in  last  week  and  all  went  out  Saturday. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  have  you  been  short  of  coal? 

Mr.  Powers.  It  has  been  short — they  have  not  had  any  supply  of 
coal  there  for  sale  in  two  months-  When  they  get  in  a  car  it  goes 
right  out. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  discussed  that  matter  with  your  coal 
dealers  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  The  coal  dealers  there  have  been  notified  that  they 
would  be  shipped  coal  just  as  soon  as  they  could  get  cars  to  ship  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  understand  they  have  any  on  the  way  ? 

Mr.  Po\st:rs.  No;  none  reported  on  the  way. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  do  you  get  your  wood  from? 

Mr.  Powers.  We  get  it  mostly  from  Long  Prairie,  Minn. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  get  cars  for  that  readily  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  No,  sir ;  I  have  had  an  order  in  for  wood  down  there 
about  ten  days,  and  the  shipper  reported  that  he  would  load  as  soon 
as  he  could  get  a  car  to  ship. 

Mr.  Marble.  Long  Prairie  is  on  the  Great  Northern  road,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Powers.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  ]SL^RBLE.  Do  you  know  which  branch? 

Mr.  Powers.  No  ;  I  do  not  know  what  branch  they  do  call  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  other  business — ^your  creamery  business — ^have 
you  had  a  shortage  of  transportation  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  No,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble.  You  have  not  been  affected  in  that? 

Mr.  Powers.  No;  they  nm  a  refrigerator  car  one  day  a  week — 
eveiy  Tuesday. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  that  you  have  been  served  promptly  ? 

Mr.  Powers.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  there  is  no  suffering  in  vour  country  for  want  of 
fuel? 

Mr.  PoA\'ERS.  No,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble,  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Begg,  Mr.  Powers,  you  spoke  of  the  elevators  being  blocked 
on  account  of  their  capacity  for  one  class  of  grain.  That  was  always 
the  highest  grade  of  grain,  wasn't  it? 

Mr.  Powers.  Well,  it  was  —  sometimes  one  elevator  would  be 
blocked  probably  on  flax. 

Mr.  Begg.  It  was  not  different  grades  of  any  kind  of  grain,  as  of 
wheat? 

Mr.  Powers,  T  could  not  say  it  was, 

Mr.  Begg,  Just  on  account  of  the  wheat  bin  or  flax  bin  being  filled 
in  the  same  elevator  ? 

jSIr.  Powers.  Yes,  sir. 


OAB  SHORTAGE.  179 

Mr.  Marble.  You  understand  that  the  price  of  grain  was  reduced  ? 
Mr.  Powers.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Marble.  That  is  alL 
(Witness  waii  excused.) 

J.  E.  Phelan,  called  as  a  witness,  and  being  duly  sworn,  was  ex- 
amined and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  do  you  reside? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Dickinson,  N.  Dak. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  businevss? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Live-stock  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  a  shipper  of  live  stock? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  From  what  point  in  North  Dakota? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Dickinson. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  how  long  have  you  been  in  the  live-stock 
business  ? 

Mr.  Pheij^n.  About  fourteen  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  ever  been  in  the  railroad  business? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marbus.  When? 

Mr.  Phei^n.  Oh,  from  1873  until  1895. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  roads  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Lake  Shore,  Michigan  Southern,  and  Northern 
Pacific. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  in  what  capacity? 

Mr.  Phelan.  From  locomotive  fireman  to  division  superintendent? 

Mr.  Marble.  In  your  experience,  as  a  shipper  of  live  stock,  this 
season,  did  you  have  to  wait  for  cars? 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  consider,  under  the  circumstances,  I  was  very  well 
treated  in  cars  this  season. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  as  to  the  nmning  time? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Well,  it  would  average  about  a  day  longer  getting 
from  our  shipping  point  to  Chicago  than  it  would  usually,  as  in 
former  years.  We  had  to  allow  a  day  longer  to  get  on  the  market — 
twenty-four  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  any  experience  after  loading  cars,  of 
having  to  wait  before  you  had  power  or  before  the  train  was  made 
up  to  go? 

Mr,  Phelan.  Just  one  trip? 

Mr.  Marble.  \Miat  was  that  experience? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Now,  I  shipped  to  the  Chicago  market  in  the  neigh- 
borhood of  200  cars,  more  or  less.  Just  one  shipment  was  delayed 
after  loading  on  account  of  poor  dispatching  at  the  time;  and  then 
we  were  hampered  by  the  dispatcher  getting  orders  to  do  way 
work — picking  up  a  dead  engine.  We  got  down  to  Mandan  and  we 
had  oraers  for  a  locomotive.  This  is  the  only  experience  of  delay  I 
had  on  the  Northern  Pacific  this  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  known  of  other  shippers  having  to  wait  for 
cars  this  year? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes;  quite  frequently. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  what  points? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Well,  at  various  points. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  general  complaint? 


180  CAB  SHORTAGB. 

Mr.  Phelan.  Well,  not  as  general  as  it  was  in  former  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Better  than  in  former  years? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Three  years  ago  it  was  very  bad ;  a  year  ago  it  was 
quite  good,  and  this  year,  why  I  think  every  effort  was  put  forth  to 
handle  the  stock  business  to  the  best  advantage.  May  I  go  ahead  and 
explain  the  conditions? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Was  the  stock  moved  later  in  the  year  this 
year  than  it  has  l)een  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No;  it  commenced  to  move  quite  early  this  year,  but 
the  main  delay  was  caused  by  running  these  cars  through  to  Chicago, 
having  to  wait  for  them  to  return. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  testimony  of  yesterday  was,  as  I  remem- 
ber it,  that  live  stock  was  moved  much  later  this  year,  causing  more 
congestion. 

Mr.  Phelan.  No  ;  live  stock  commenced  to  move  in  July  this  year. 
Usually  the  live  stock  movement  is  in  September  and  October,  while 
some  of  it  is  moving  yet — moving  very  late  this  year,  part  of  it,  but 
the  movement  is  very  late;  the  bulk  of  it  moved  in  September  and 
October. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  this  an  article  [handing  part  of  a  newspaper  to 
witness]  prepared  by  you  and  printed  by  you  in  the  Fargo  Forum 
and  Daily  Republican  under  date  of  Thursday,  October  11,  1906? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  this  article  I  have  shown  you,  printed  in  the 
Fargo  Forum  in  October,  lOOC,  was  written  by  you? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  here  in  this  article  the  statement  that — 

One  man  I  found  who  has  spent  weeks  in  rounding  up  his  small  herd,  and 
after  taking  it  to  the  railroad  and  waiting  several  days  for  cars,  returned  them 
to  the  range  and  turned  them  loose  again.  En  route  to  the  market  this  year 
shippers  told  me  that  it  is  a  scramble  in  which  uncertainties  prevail.  One 
shipper,  after  loading,  was  held  at  the  loading  point  eight  hours,  awaiting  more 
loading,  for  more  cars,  but  time  waited  not,  and  the  tAAenty-eight  or  thirty-six 
hour  limit  expired  not  far  down  the  road  and  the  cattle  were  unloaded  to 
reiieat  the  operation.  This  shipper  had  been  waiting  three  hours  at  Belt  Line 
Junction  for  a  switch  engine  to  take  his  train  to  Mr.  Hill's  Twin  City  yards, 
when  I  met  him. 

"What  do  you  mean  by  the  twenty-eight  or  thirty-six  hour  limit? 

Mr.  Phelan.  That  alludes  to  the  Great  Northern  shipment.  The 
twenty-eight  hours  is  the  Federal  requirement  for  cattle  to  be  unloaded 
after  being  twenty-eight  hours  on  the  car. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  when  does  this  time  limit  commence  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  think  some  of  them  would  be  a  guess.  It  neces- 
sarily runs  from  the  time  it  is  placed  on  the  bill  of  lading,  as  having 
been  loaded,  which  is  the  actual  loading  time;  and  there  is  an  exten- 
sion of  that  to  thirty-six  hours  by  the  shipper  signing  the  request  to 
extend  to  thirty-six  hours.  They  can  remain  on  the  car  thirty-six 
hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  law  generally  observed  in  the  shipping  of 
cattle? 

Mr.  Phelan.  It  is  observed  too  strictly,  very  often,  from  my  stand- 
point. 

Mr.  M.\rble.  That  is,  it  compels  you  to  unload  them  before  reaching 
destination.  You  have  to  unload  them  in  that  time,  when  otherwise 
you  could  get  through  and  finish  your  journey? 


OAB  SHORTAGE.  181 

Mr.  Phelan.  And  get  to  a  particular  destination.  It  would  exj>e- 
dite  the  car  movement  greatly  if  that  law  was  not  too  strictly 
enforced. 

Mr.  Marble.   (Reading) : 

One  stiK'k  train  was  held  over  twenty-four  hours  at  a  terminal  before  unload- 
ing, after  the  thirty -six-hour  limit  had  expUvd,  but  as  thne  loadluK  and  unload- 
ing doesn't  count,  the  letter  of  the  law  was  complied  with,  and  all  they  had  to 
do  was  to  forget  about  any  possible  damage  to  the  stock. 

Now,  do  I  understand  that  one  car  was  held  at  a  station  after  the 
thirty-six  hour  limit  had  expired? 

Mr.  Phelan.  A  shipper  told  me  that  occurred  at  I-<arimore,  waiting 
for  a  chance  to  unload  in  the  yard,  Ix'cause  the  yard  was  congested, 
or  congested  switch  engines,  or  some  other  cause---did  not  get  around 
to  unload. 

Mr.  Marble  (reading)  : 

Two  years  ago  on  the  Northern  Pacific  line  similar  conditions  prevailed,  but 
at  their  worst  they  did  not  show  anything  like  the  abandon  or  disregard  for  the 
shippers'  interest  displayed  on  the  Qreat  Northern. 

Mr.  Phelan.  That  is  ri^ht 

Mr.  Marble.  You  considered  the  Great  Northern  has  not  been 
properly  conducted? 

Air.  Phelan.  I  never  did — very  good.  I  drove  my  cattle  120  miles 
to  the  Northern  Pacific,  when  I  could  reach  the  Great  Northern  in 
40  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  Speaking  of  the  Northern  Pacific  this  year  you  say 
that— 

This  year  the  trafl3c  and  executive  departments  of  the  Northern  Pacific  made 
preparations  to  take  care  of  live-stock  shipments  in  building  new  cars  and 
placing  them  in  service.  The  early  slilpments  were  successful  until  the  avail- 
able supi)ly  of  cars  reached  the  eastern  terminals,  but  on  the  return  trip  stock 
cars  were  scattered  and  congested  en  route  between  St.  Paul  and  Montana,  prin- 
cipally east  of  Mandan. 

Is  that  still  your  opinion — that  the  scattering  took  place? 
Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir;  undoubtedly. 
Mr.  Marble.  You  say  (reading)  : 

And  a  week  in  advance  of  a  shipment  there  were  700  cars,  or  more  cars  fen 
route  to  fill  a  week's  orders  for  600,  but  when  loading  dates  arrived  the  cars 
were  yet  coming,  but  not  arrived. 

Mr.  Phelan.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  had  that  trouble? 

Mr.  Phelan.  That  is  a  fact. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  Have  you  had  trouble  in  having  your  cattle  get  into 
market  in  a  sort  of  a  clean-up  rush,  instead  of  naving  them  go  in  a 
regular  stream  ? 

Mr.  Phki.an.  I  got  caught  on  one  rush  of  that  kind  this  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  it  cause  you  a  loss? 

Mr.  Phelan.  A  very  serious  loss. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  count  that  a  failure  of  transportation  that 
the  cattle  do  not  go  in  a  steady  stream  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Failure  of  general  transportation ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  was  that  failure — on  what  road  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  It  is  all  roads — all  roads — general  demoralization  on 
all  roads,  as  near  as  I  can  view  the  matter. 

]Mr.  Marble.  You  count  it  a  demoralization  t 


182  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Phelan.  Tt  is  what  T  count  a  demoralization.  Tt  is  too  many 
dead  men.  and  not  enough  live  ones.  Employees  going  to  sleep,  and 
depending  upon  subordinates  to  do  work  men  of  brains  are  paid  for 
doing. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say : 

Before  the  movement  of  live  stock  commenced  there  was  a  congestion  of  dead 
freight  at  terminals.  One  carload  of  posts  I  understand  was  received  at 
Dickinson  recently  six  months  after  the  order  was  placed. 

Do  you  know  how  long  they  had  been  in  transit? 
Mr.  PiiELAN.  About  that  long.     Over  nine  months  on  a  car  of  lum- 
ber coming  from  Washington  State  to  North  Dakota. 
Mr.  Marble.  You  say : 

Having  cars  en  route  from  the  coast  for  months  instead  of  days  or  weeks  is 
getting  frequent 

Mr.  Phelan.  The  bill  of  lading  for  one  car  was  dated  September 
10,  1905. 
Mr.  Marble.  And  reached  the  destination  when? 
Mr.  Phelan.  Sometime  this  fall  or  early  winter. 
Mr.  Marble.  You  say: 

Engine  east  bound,  held  at  Mandan  thirty-six  hours  to  protect  a  stock  train 
when  the  yard  was  full  of  dead  freight. 

You  have  seen  such  instances  have  you  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir;  incapacity,  that  is  what  I  call  it.  That  is 
what  I  call  incapacity  of  the  local  management. 

Mr.  Marble.  "Later  stock  train  held  five  hours  for  an  engine?  " 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  More  than  one  instance  of  that  sort? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Lots  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble  (reading)  : 

Statements  frequently  made  to  me  along  the  line  of  train  and  englnemen  on 
the  road  in  single  trips  for  twenty  hours  and  more. 

Mr.  Phelan.  Quite  frequently.  Only  last  month  I  am  told  of  a 
train  being  thirty  hours  from  Fargo  to  Jamestown. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  enginemen  were  working  all  that  time? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Continuously  working. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  charge  of  an  engine? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Nobody  cares  as  long  as  they  get  started  out,  and  get 
there  some  time. 

Mr.  Marble  (reading) : 

The  last  shipment  I  made  I  followed  the  equij)ment  which  was  expected  to 
leave  Mandan  at  midnight,  September  20.  Four  hours  at  Mandan  waiting  for 
orders. 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Marble  (reading) : 
Sunnyside  blocked  with  cars. 

What  was  the  reason  for  that? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Sunnyside  was  blocked  with  cars ;  that  is,  if  the  Sun- 
nyside sidetrack  had  been  free  from  cars,  the  train  could  have  moved 
at  three  or  four  miles  an  hour. 

Mr.  Marble  (reading)  : 

Almont  siding  being  reconstructed  by  track  men. 


CAR   SHORTAGB.  183 

You  mean  for  sidetracking? 
Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Marble  (reading) : 

At  Hebron  six  hours  and  thirty  minutes  by  Indecision  as  to  what  to  do  and 
who  was  to  do  It.  fonipllcated  by  one  of  the  flrenien  giving  »»Ht  on  act-ount  of  too 
much  work  and  nut  enough  to  eat 

Mr.  Phklan.  The  fireman  got  hiin^y  and  went  to  look  for  some- 
thing to  eat,  and  everybody  else  was  tied  up. 
Mr.  Marble  (reading) : 

Then  21'  cars  loaded  in  three  and  one-half  hours,  after  which  the  crew  took 
an  hour  for  supper,  which  they  were  entitled  to,  and  departed. 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Marble  (reading)  : 

Se<-ond  train,  20  cars  loaded  from  8.30  to  1  p.  m.,  should  have  been  .30  cars, 
but  owing  to  darkness  could  not  get  all  the  cattle  into  yards. 

You  count  that  you  were  delayed  unduly,  and  that  the  delay  was 
unnecessary? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir.  We  could  have  had  all  our  cattle  loaded 
by  6  o'clock  if  the  crews  had  set  the  cars. 

Mr.  Mabrle  (reading) : 

This  train  was  all  ready  11.15  p.  m.,  and  waited  two  hoars  for  orders. 

Mr.  Phelan.  That  is  correct. 
Mr.  Marble  (reading) : 

After  getting  to  New  Salem  switched  out  a  dead  engine  from  among  a  lot  of 
congested  cars;  one  hour  and  five  minutes.  Twenty-four  miles  farther  along, 
at  Mandan,  three  hours  waiting  for  an  engine.  There  were  engines  eiioiifjli.  I 
understand,  but  the  crews  needed  rest,  and  the  one  we  got  had  to  have  flues 
calked. 

Is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble  (reading) : 

Eleven  hours  gone  from  the  limit  of  thirty-six  and  only  70  miles  on  our 
Journey. 

Mr.  Phelan.  That  is  right. 
Mr.  Marble  (reading)  : 

.\t  Jamestown  we  had  prompt  service  and  got  ahead  of  a  stock  train  that  had 
been  there  three  hours  but  which  had  to  unload  at  Fargo.  At  Becker.  Minn,  on 
the  double  track,  the  Great  Northern  freight  covered  l)oth  tracks  and  a  couple 
of  sidetracks.  When  stopping  to  sidetrack  with  about  r>0  loads  for  the  North 
Coast  Limited  the  engineer  was  careless  in  handling  his  brake  valve,  resulting 
in  three  drawbars  pulling  out  and  one  knuckle  breaking,  or  something  like  that 

Mr.  Phelan.  That  is  rights 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  observation,  as  a  railroad  man,  is  that  that 
engine  was  too  heavily  loade^l  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No;  these  engines — the  train  was  not  too  heavily 
loaded  if  it  could  move  along  and  keep  moving  and  if  everything 
was  properly  and  carefullv  handled,  but  whoi*o  such  heavy  tonnage 
is  carried  on  an  engine  tne  least  blunder  or  incapacity  or  incom- 
petency of  the  engineer  sets  everything  wrong. 

Mr.  Marble.  Increa.ses  the  liability  to  accidents? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Increa.ses  the  liability  to  accidents,  detention,  and 
dilatory  service — all  three. 

Mr.  Marble.  Each  one  results  in  delays  ? 


184  CAB   SHOKTAGE. 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  can  not  expect  men  to  always  do  the  right  thing 
at  the  right  time  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Unless  they  are  properly  rested;  dead  men  can  not 
do  good  work  in  an  office  or  anywhere  else. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  your  observation  that  these  train  men  are  over- 
worked ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  can  not  say  that.  There  are  frequent  cases  of  that 
kind,  especially  where  they  are  on  the  roads  for  such  unreasonable 
hours,  and  where  they  are  sent  out  on  these  drags  and  kept  dragging 
clear  through  indefinitely,  regardless  of  time  and  consequences;  that 
is  simply  pernicious. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  do  you  mean  by  a  "  drag  ?  " 

Mr.  Phelan.  A  drag  is  a  term  generally  applied  by  railroad  men 
to  a  heavy  freight  train;  that  is,  a  train  that  is  long  and  heavy. 
These  engines  are  rated,  of  course,  according  to  the  capacity  when 
they  are  in  first-class  shape.  Very  frequently  engines  are  in  bad 
condition,  and  I  think  that  is  the  cause  of  much  of  the  trouble;  the 
engines  are  not  kept  in  good  shape — that  is,  are  not  kept  at  their  full 
capacity — in  other  words,  "  slaughtered."  Engines  have  got  to  be 
kept  in  good  condition ;  cylinders  have  got  to  be  kept  round ;  valves 
have  got  to  be  kept  faced,  so  that  there  can  be  no  waste  of  steam,  and 
in  every  other  way  an  engine  has  got  to  be  handled  and  attended  to  by 
mechanics,  so  that  when  they  get  out  every  move  will  count.  In  that 
way  tonnage  is  no  difficulty,  if  engines  are  sent  out  in  first-class  shape 
and  engineers  and  firemen  are  rested.  Everything  would  go  on 
much  better,  and  go  along  well  enough,  with  experienced  men  and 
matters  in  good  shape;  but  the  cylinder  packing  wears  Out;  valves 
cutting  and  various  other  matters  happen  to  those  engines.  It  is  just 
like  a  man  buying  an  automobile,  and  expecting  God  to  take  care  of 
it.  He  will  go  out  in  the  country  once  in  a  while  and  stay  there,  and 
have  to  get  a  team  to  pull  him  back  to  town.  A  machine  has  got  to 
have  the  most  careful  watch,  and  when  railroad  companies  abandon 
their  shops  and  cut  down  their  material  100  per  cent,  and  do  every- 
thing else  like  a  man  running  a  cheap  clothing  store,  you  can  not 
expect  good  service  on  a  railroad. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  any  of  those  conditions  obtain  as  to  the  Great 
Northern  or  the  Northern  Pacific  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir;  they  do,  most  decidedly;  that  is,  I  do  not 
say  it  is  general;  there  are  many  engines  in  excellent  shape — many 
others  are  sent  out  and  not  given  the  attention  they  deserve. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  to  either  of  those  two  roads,  have  they  cut  down 
their  shops  or  abandoned  their  shops? 

Mr.  Phelan.  The  Northern  Pacific  Railroad  at  one  time  was 
equipped  clear  through  to  the  coast  with  the  best  system  of  shops  and 
organization  and  short  terminal  distances,  where  the  men  could 
attend  to  the  boilers  and  keep  everything  in  firet-class  shape. 

Now,  I  will  cite  to  you  an  instance — what  a  road  master  told  me  the 
other  day — which  was  a  comparison  of  the  road  department  with  the 
machinery  department.  He  told  me  that  last  year  he  had  150  broken 
rails  in  one  district  of  14  miles  long,  and  yet  never  had  an  accident. 
That  man  was  always  attending  to  business;  when  those  rails  would 
break  they  were  caught,  they  were  bolstered  up  and  put  in  shape, 
and  everything  went  along  all  right.  Now,  at  one  time  this  economy 
craze  and  tonnage  craze  made  half  of  the  railroad  men  in  the  country 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  185 

crazy,  and  the  other  half  are  following — are  afraid  they  will  loee 
their  jobs  on  the  same  score. 

The  Northern  Pacific  followed  the  lead  of  the  Great  Northern. 
The  track  is  supposed  to  be  put  down  with  good,  heavy  rails.  It  is 
my  opinion  and  observation  that  the  Northern  Pacific  followed  the 
lead  of  the  Great  Northern.  I  consider  the  Pennsylvania  road  is  a 
very  much  over-estimated  concern.  You  will  find  that  in  your  ^raft 
investigation;  but  on  that  score  these  shops  were  abandoned.  Now, 
for  instance,  at  Fargo  they  had  shops  where  they  could  get  out 
about  three  engines  a  month ;  at  Mandan  they  could  do  the  same ;  at 
Dickinson  they  had  lathes  and  machinery  to  do  ordinary  running 
repairs;  and  at  Glendive  they  had  shops;  and  these  division  shops, 
in  fact,  the  district  shops,  were  dismantled,  machinery  taken  out 
of  them,  and  the  division  shops  were  partially  dismantled.  This  is 
none  of  my  concern  except  that  it  ajffects  me  as  a  shipper.  I  know 
the  management  of  the  Northern  Pacific;  so  far  as  I  am  personally 
concerned,  I  have  been  treated  splendidly,  but  every  little  while  I 
run  up  against  these  things  and  I  suffer  by  it,  and  I  see  it  with  my 
own  eyes. 

The  other  day  I  went  into  the  roundhouse  at  Dickinson,  and  you 
could  not  see  your  hand  before  your  eyes  for  steam.  The  transition 
from  light  power  to  heavy  power  has  gone  on  until  every  round- 
house on  the  system  has  had  to  be  extended.  At  Dickinson  there 
should  be  steam  pipes  by  which  the  engines,  when  they  were  blowing 
off — escaping  steam  should  be  taken  care  of  by  pipes  attached  to 
these  engines,  and  allow  the  steam  to  escape  into  the  outer  air  and 
leave  a  clear  atmosphere.  In  the  process  of  construction  those  pipes 
have  been  neglected  and  abandoned,  and  the  result  is  there  is  a  whole 
cloud  of  steam  in  there,  and  men  take  their  lives  in  their  hands  when 
they  try  to  go  about  and  do  anything.  They  are  about  four  or  five 
weeks  behind  what  they  ought  to  be.  That  is  what  I  call  poor  house- 
keeping, poor  railroading.  These  engines  should  be  able  to  go  into 
the  roundhouses  at  Dickinson  or  Mandan  and  be  repaired  proniptlv. 
If  the  force  there  was  not  sufficient  some  one  should  bring  men  in 
and  get  these  engines  in  shape  to  go  out;  but  ^ou  take  away  that 
surplus  force  and  you  put  it  right  up  to  the  limit  of  the  force,  and 
when  your  engines  come  in  and  need  rej)airs  hurriedly  you  have  not 
the  force  to  do  the  repairs;  the  result  is  your  engines  quickly  run 
down  and  deteriorate  and  you  are  getting  poor  service,  and  that 
means  general  demoralization. 

Now,  if  you  say  anything  about  that  to  the  ordinary  officer  who  is 
responsible  for  these  things  you  get  him  hot  right  away,  he  resents 
it  as  an  insult,  and  I  have  tried  in  all  my  utterances  to  avoid  the 
attitude  that  some  of  these  men  will  put  you  into  as  having  it  in  for 
the  road. 

Now,  there  is  the  Northern  Pacific.  That  property  is  one  of  the 
most  magnificent  properties  in  the  country.  So  far  as  the  engineer- 
ing department  is  concerned  and  the  revision  of  grades,  the  recon- 
stniction  of  lines  and  its  track,  and  everything  of  that  kind,  it  can 
not  be  excelled,  and  its  traffic  department,  its  legal  department — fine 
gentlemen  all  through,  and  the  transportation  oepartment,  so  far  as 
my  contact  with  them — they  are  splendid  fellows,  all  of  them  able 
men,  but  somehow  or  other  there  is  some  sort  of  a  demoralization, 
demoralized  condition — that  everybody  seems  to  be  acting  only  to 
preserve  his  own  position,  and  everybody  is  afraid  to  get  out  and 


186  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

wheel  the  necessary  stuff  in  order  to  get  this  work  into  line  and  have 
it  done  proi^erly,  have  men  do  their  work.  Engines  are  sent  out  to 
do  the  work  in  our  district  and  they  have  been  smashed,  a  dozen 
within  a  few  weeks,  by  collisions  or  burning. 

I  do  not  like  that  personally;  I  have  a  feeling  against  that  kind 
of  work,  and  I  always  have  had.  I  have  got  a  contempt  for  dead 
men,  no  matter  where  you  find  them,  and  I  always  feel  that  if  it 
takes  from  now  to  next  shipping  season,  they  can  not  any  more  than 
get  this  done,  and  that  I  will  be  up  against  the  same  proposition  next 
year.  I  want  to  know  whether  my  cattle  are  going  to  get  to  market, 
and  I  need  to  know — and  unless  somebody  speaks  out,  and  somebody 
finds  these  weak  points,  demonstrates  them,  and  has  them  removed, 
we  are  never  going  to  get  any  better  service.  The  first  condition  is 
this.  You  must  not  only  keep  your  track  in  shape,  but  keep  your 
power  in  shape,  and  pick  out  experienced  men,  and  keep  moving  it ; 
get  the  men  with  the  capacity  and  the  caliber  that  can  do  the  work. 
It  makes  me  tired  to  see  every  terminal  and  every  side  track  in  the 
country  congested.  If  they  would  get  them  out,  they  could  do  three 
times  the  business  with  them. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Can  you  give  me  an  idea  of  the  date  on  which 
this  demoralization  on  the  Northern  Pacific  began — can  you  approxi- 
mate the  date  on  which  the  demoralization  in  the  operating  depart- 
ment of  the  Northern  Pacific  began  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Three  years  ago  it  showed  up  the  worst. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  has  been  continuing  growing  thicker 
ever  since  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No;  I  have  taken  up  matters  with  them  regarding 
my  shipments,  and  I  know  from  the  results  that  efforts  have  been 
made  there  to  give  people  good  service,  but  just  as  soon  as  the  pres- 
sure is  taken  off  it  lags  again,  and  they  get  in  a  hole  and  go  to  sleep — 
something  is  the  matter.  Now,  one  instance  was  cited  to  me  by  a 
railroad  man  in  my  district  of  enignes  where  water  hose  gave  out. 
Hose  were  taken  off  of  one  engine  to  repair  another  one  with.  I  un- 
derstand that  is  because  these  supplies  of  the  road  have  been  reduced 
from  a  hundred  per  cent,  or  from  $4,000,000  to  $2,000,000,  just  simply 
for  the  interest  to  be  saved  on  the  $2,000,000.  Engines  run  without 
kerosene — engines  run  without  headlights.  It  is  a  bad  matter  to 
need  the  ordinary  little  supplies  and  things.  I  will  bet  the  president 
don't  know  about  it ;  it  is  all  covered  up.  This  creates  car  shortage, 
which  is  simply  a  matter  of  not  getting  the  cars  around. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  purpose  of  cutting  off  these  sup- 
plies or  reducing  the  amount  of  the  supplies — to  make  an  increase  in 
earnings — to  make  a  reduction  in  operating  expenses? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No;  to  make  a  showing  on  paper  for  some  executive 
officer. 

Commissioner  Lane.  In  other  words,  the  road,  according  to  your 
idea,  is  being  operated  not  for  the  benefit  of  the  shipper  and  the 
public  or  even  the  owners  so  much  as  it  is  for  somebody  else  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  If  Mr.  Hill  is  rapping  these  men  for  a  showing  of  this 
kind,  they  feeling  they  are  earning  their  salaries  by  making  a  showing 
of  that  kind — economy — why,  of  course,  they  rap  all  the  way  down 
on  the  line  for  the  purpose  of  swelling  stocks  in  Wall  street.  That 
is  the  way  it  has  always  appeared  to  me.  Now,  so  far  as  Mr.  Hill  is 
concemea,  as  a  farmer,  if  he  would  pay  half  the  attention  to  the  rail- 
road men  and  the  matter  of  excellent  results  on  the  railroad  that  he 


CAB   SHOBTAOB.  187 

pays  to  his  prize  pigs  on  his  farm,  we  would  not  have  any  car  short- 
age in  the  Northwest. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  know  the  car  shortage,  or  whatever  it 
is,  does  not  obtain  only  here;  It  is  quite  as  serious  in  Texas  as  it  is 
in  Miimesota.  We  have  congestion  down  there  where  there  are  80.000 
cars  and  they  are  not  able  to  load  them,  and  some  roads  won't  allow 
any  of  their  cai-s  to  go  into  Texas  at  the  present  time  because  they 
can  not  get  them  back. 

Mr.  PiiELAN.  I  have  followed  cattle  trains  from  Texas  to  North 
Dakota,  and  know  how  it  prevails  all  over,  but  the  weakness  comes 
in  from  the  fact  that  if  one  numagement  finds  another  prouiinent 
managentent  suffering  the  same  way  that  is  put  forward  as  an  ex- 
cuse for  weakness.  Because  everybody  lies  or  because  everybody  is 
weak  is  really  no  excuse. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  I  understand  you  to  mean  by  that  that 
if  there  is  a  certain  standard  of  operating  expenses  set  up  by  one  road, 
it  has  its  effect  upon  the  minds  of  those  who  are  buying  railroad  stock, 
that  other  railroads  conform  to  that  standard  so  as  to  have  the  same 
beneficial  effect? 

Mr.  Phelan.  If  one  management  seeks  to  get  the  traffic  over  the 
road,  and  will  reduce  tonnagi'  a  little  to  expedite  traffic,  the  first  time 
their  report  of  tonnage  goes  down  to  Wall  street  some  prominent 
financier  will  get  his  "stuffed  club"  out  and  say:  "Why  don't  you 
do  as  well  as  the  Great  Northern;  why  don't  you  nuike  a  showing 
like  the  Hill  Line  or  some  of  the  Southern  roads?"  And  the  result 
is  they  all  sidetrack  everything  to  tonnage,  and  the  only  result  is 
they  pay  no  attention  to  time.  A  train  has  2,000  tons,  and  it  mat- 
ters not  whether  that  train  is  one  or  two  weeks  getting  over  the 
road,  thirty  hours  or  forty  hours,  it  simply  counts  as  tonnage,  and 
the  standard  of  time  of  getting  cars  over  the  road  in  an  expedi- 
tious way  or  reasol^able  miles  per  hour  does  not  cut  any  figure.  It 
has  been  demonstrated — no  doubt  it  was  a  fact — that  it  costs  more 
to  run  a  train  i^  a  fairly  high  rate  of  sj^eed  than  it  does  at  a  low  rate 
of  speed,  all  things  bemg  equal.  Thev  will  cut  off  the  fast  trains 
because  there  is  more  monev  in  slow  trains  than  there  is  in  fast  trains. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  railroatl  were  you  superintendent  on? 

Mr.  Phelan.  On  the  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Marble.  We  have  here   (referring  to  newspaper  clipping) : 

There  Is  some  kind  of  fiction  In  un8clentifl<'  railroading  which  does  not  class 
a  light  engine  as  a  train,  and  one  engine  with  two  calxMiscs  will  drag  12.(NX)  tons 
of  freight,  more  or  less,  with  the  light  engine  dallying  behind  or  hitting  the 
caboose  suddenly  when  the  drag  stops  on  a  <'urve  or  at  a  water  tank.  If  one 
engine  drags  'J.ihmi  tons  alone  or  as  a  double  header,  or  with  the  liglit  engine 
following,  it  enhances  the  tonnage  re^-ord.  If  the  2.(K)0  tons  is  divided  into 
two  trains  of  1.000  tons  each  much  iH'tter  service  is  insured,  but  the  tonnage 
re<-ord,  on  pai>er,  is  inipainHl.  Am  I  right?  Puzzle:  Find  anything  like  a 
common-sense  basis  for  this  practice. 

Mr.  Phelan.  That  is  right.  This  tonnage  record  is  more  or  less 
a  fiction;  it  is  as  false  as  hell,  l>ec4iuse  a  man  can  take,  under  those 
couditions,  and  by  keeping  his  freight  on  the  road  indefinitely,  there 
is  no  quastion  asked  at  headquarters  or  «lown  at  Wall  Street  how  that 
is  accomplished.  I  say  that  ought  to  be  punished  the  same  as  coun- 
terfeiting is  punished. 

Mr.  ^Grble.  Have  you  observed  such  practices? 

Mr.  Phelan.  It  is  invariably  practiced.  It  is  the  most  ridiculous 
thing  I  ever  saw. 


188  OAB   SHORTAQB. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  regard  all  tonnage  records,  then,  as  simply  paper 
results,  and  not  even  as  indicating  economies  obtained  for  stock- 
holders ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No,  sir.  I  do  not  want  to  be  spreading  myself  on 
record  as  being  opposed  to  the  tonnage  system,  of  having  an  engine 
pulling  every  ton  it  is  capable  of  pulling,  but  I  say  the  fault  comes 
in  in  having  an  engine  fitted  out  with  a  tonnage  where  it  is  incapaci- 
tated by  not  being  kept  properly  in  repair;  that  is  where  the  fault  of 
tonnage  comes  in ;  putting  out  a  maximum  tonnage  on  an  engine  that 
is  in  excellent  shape  is  good  for  the  stockholders,  shippers,  and  every- 
body else. 

Air.  Marble.  And  when  you  say  maximum,  you  would  have  regard 
to  speed  as  well  as  to  weight? 

Mr.  Phelan.  You  get  an  engine  on  a  maximum  tonnage — why, 
that  means  that  it  will  handle  that  in  very  reasonable  time.  The 
only  danger  in  that  comes  in  in  too  many  stops,  and  not  being  prompt 
to  move  along,  and  it  takes  longer  to  stop  and  it  takes  longer  to  start. 

Mr.  Marble  (reading) : 

Last  spring  at  Manhattan,  Mont,  with  a  stock  train,  I  was  blocked  for  seven 
hours  by  a  way  freight  train  with  an  ordinary  engine,  anchored  down  with  1,800 
tons  of  freight  The  train  dispatchers  persevered  in  their  efiforts  and  devices  to 
get  this  train  out  of  the  hole,  but  dead  weight  and  a  primitive  sidetrack  were 
against  the  engine  and  the  force. 

Mr.  Phelan.  There  is  a  peculiar  condition  at  Manhattan.  The 
primitive  side  track  was  one  of  the  early  side  tracks,  built  on  the  natu- 
ral ground  level,  not  up  to  grade.  The  train  would  be  in  a  hole,  and 
an  engine  to  pull  that  train  out  of  such  a  side  track  has  got  to  do  vio- 
lence to  the  equipment.  You  have  got  to  jerk  and  pull  drawbars  in 
order  to  get  it  out ;  and  another  thing,  1,800  tons  with  an  ordinary  light 
engine  on  a  freight  train,  where  they  have  got  to  stop  at  all  stations 
to  unload  cars  and  pick  up  freight,  is  too  much.  A  way  freight  train, 
above  all  things,  should  move  promptly — ^get  its  work  done  and  move 
aloi^g  to  another  station.  Instead  of  that,  the  division  superin- 
tendent loads  a  train  down  so  that  at  that  time  at  Manhattan,  which 
was  only  about  40  miles  out  of  the  terminal,  it  had  been  fourteen 
hours  on  the  road. 

I  sat  up  that  night.  I  went  over  to  the  caboose  to  go  to  sleep,  and 
it  was  just  as  good  as  the  grand  opera  for  me  to  sit  around  and  see  the 
antics.  Those  men  were  asleep  on  the  telegraph  office  floor,  and  to 
show  the  way  railroading  can  be  done,  if  you  have  got  a  live  man — 
the  passenger  train  came  in  there,  and  this  train  had  to  set  after  the 
passenger,  and  way  freight  train  east  bound  came  in  and  the  con- 
ductor got  off  who  was  ahead  and  had  sidetracked.  He  said  to  this 
freight  conductor :  "  Here,  pull  up  there  so  I  can  get  on  a  side  track." 
The  conductor  made  his  usual  excuses — the  engine  was  out  of  order 
and  could  not  pull  up — the  engineer  says  the  engine  is  out  of  order. 
He  said,  "To  hell  with  the  engineer."  (They  are  always  making 
such  excuses.)  "  Now,  you  make  room."  That  man  went  up  ahead  of 
the  passenger  train.  The  passenger  train  came  and  was  not  delayed 
five  minutes,  and  went  back  and  got  out  of  there  in  thirty  minutes. 
That  man  was  alive.  That  is  what  I  say,  if  there  was  more  of  that 
spirit  among  the  men  to-day  to  have  things  done,  we  should  not  have 
any  car  shortage.  I  admired  that  man ;  he  ought  to  be  made  a  train 
master;  he  ought  to  be  made  a  superintendent — somebody  that  can 
push. 


CAB  SHOBTAGB.  189 

Mr.  Marble.  In  justice  to  those  men  you  criticise,  do  you  know  how 
long  they  had  been  working? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Fourteen  hours  on  the  road  does  not  do  the  man  any 
harm. 

Mr.  Marble  (reading)  : 

Last  week,  at  Dickinson,  a  train  of  empty  stock  cars  stood  In  the  yartls  for 
twelve  hours  or  more  waiting  iwwer  to  send  them  west,  when  tliree  trains  of 
cattle  were  In  the  immefllate  vicinity  waiting  for  cars,  yet  the  additional  engines 
for  local  service  from  the  east  and  the  same  number  from  the  west  bad  not  be^i 
provided  with  crews. 

Did  you  observe  such  a  condition  of  affairs? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  More  than  once? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes;  quite  frequently  since. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  the  engines  and  the  cars  and  the  crews  do  not 
meet  when  their  combined  services  are  needed. 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  would  explain  by  saying  these  engines  that  were 
waiting  for  crews,  tiiat  came  simply  from  the  master  mechanic 
not  looking  far  enough  ahead  and  having  men  educated  and  having 
men  available  to  put  on  those  engines  when  they  were  needed,  and 
the  cars  setting  there  for  want  of  engines.  Those  cars  could  have 
been  loaded  there  and  they  could  have  been  two  hundred  miles  by  the 
time  they  move  out  west.  Those  cars  were  ordered  to  go  to  Montana 
and  farther  points,  and  there  was  an  order  to  send  them  there,  so  the 
local  people  were  powerless  to  use  those  cars  in  that  way.  There  are 
a  hundred  and  one  things  in  railroading  of  that  kind.  They  attempt 
to  direct  work  five  hundred  miles  from  the  place  where  the  work  is 
Ijcing  done,  and  the  result  is  they  muddle  things. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Phelan,  how  long  have  you  been  a 
railroad  man? 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  went  to  railroading  when  I  was  16  years  old. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  does  not  quite  answer  my  question. 

Mr.  Phei^n.  From  1873  to  1895 — twenty-three  years. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  long  have  you  been  a  stock  raiser? 

Mr.  Pheijvn.  I  have  been  stock  raising  now  about  fourteen  years. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  have  been  your  opportunities  for 
observing  the  management  and  conduct  of  the  Nortnern  Pacific  the 
last  five  years,  say  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Well,  now,  for  instance,  this  vear  I  ship|)ed  in  a 
hundred  cars  of  cattle  from  Montana  and  Washington.  I  followed 
every  train  load  of  cattle  out;  I  followed  it  from  loading  point  to 
destniation. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  was  to  Chicago? 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  went  with  my  cattle  to  Chicago — rode  in  the 
caboose  and  saw  just  how  things  were  going. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  often  have  you  taken  that  trip? 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  have  taken  it 

Commissioner  Harijin.  In  five  years. 

Mr.  Phelan  (continuing).  For  five  years  I  have  taken  it  almost 
invariably  with  the  cattle  trains.  This  seascm  I  left  the  train  and 
went  on  the  passenger. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  trips  have  you  taken  in  five 
years? 

Mr.  Phelan.  That  would  be  impossible  to  answer  now. 

Commissioner  Haelan.  How  many  this  year? 


190  OAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Phelan.  Five  or  ten — I  have  probably  taken  eight  trips  this 
year — counting  the  stock  cattle  I  have  taken  a  dozen  trips. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  come  back  to  the  west  in  a  passenger, 
then? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Now,  just  to  test  the  value  of  your  state- 
ment, do  you  base  all  that  you  said  on  your  personal  observation  on 
these  trips,  or  do  you  also  base  it  largely  or  to  some  extent  upon 
your  own  experience  with  that  road  as  a  railroad  man? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Observations  and  experience,  both. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Both  together? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  In  what  you  have  said  do  you  reflect  the 
views  of  other  railroad  men  who  have  had  equal  opi)ortunities  of 
observing  the  conduct  and  management  of  the  Northern  Pacific 
Railroad  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No;  there  is  a  distinction  there.  It  depends  how 
much  scared  a  man  is  of  losing  his  position. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  talked  with  railroad  men  about 
the  management  of  the  Northern  Pacific  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Invariably,  and  very  frequently  I  did  not  have  to 
talk  to  them;  they  talked  to  me. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  So  that  something  of  what  you  have  said 
to-night  is  based  upon  what  you  have  heard  from  them  ? 

Mr,  Phelan,  And  what  I  saw  for  myself. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes;  and  what  you  saw  for  yourself? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  So  that  you  are  reflecting  their  views  as 
well  as  your  own? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  In  other  words,  you  can  go  so  far  as  to  say 
the  general  impression  of  all  the  railroad  men  you  have  come  in  con- 
tact with  is  in  line  with  your  statements  here  this  afternoon  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Remember,  some  railroad  men  are  very  diplomatic? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  They  would  not  be  diplomatic  with  you, 
would  they  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Some  would  and  some  would  not.  The  men  that 
talked — as  a  rule  railroad  men  are  very  frank  in  talking  with  me. 

Commissioner  Harlan,  Then,  in  your  statement,  I  understand  you 
reflect  their  views  also  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Reflect  the  views  of  experienced  men — inexperienced 
men  would  not  have  any  such  views — would  not  have  any  such  views 
at  all. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Your  judgment  is  that  it  is  the  opinion  of 
railroad  men  in  this  northwest  territory  that  there  is  no  real  car 
shortage,  but  that  this  trouble  is  due  to  mismanagement? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Well,  I  would  not  want  to  say  that  is  the  opinion  of 
railroad  men  generally,  because  many  of  them  do  not  really  know. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  are  you  expressing  only  your  views 
or  are  you  expressing  your  views  and  others? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No;  I  would  say  I  am  expressing  my  own  opinion. 
That  is  my  opinion  from  observation. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  acquainted  with  J.  W.  Midgley,  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No ;  I  know  him  by  reputation,  but  not  personally. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  191 

Mr.  Marble.  By  reputation — you  know  him  as  an  expert  in  the 
question  of  car  supply  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  his  views  on  this  subject,  con- 
cerning which  you  have  l)een  expressing  yourself? 

Mr.  Phklan.  No:  I  am  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Midgley,  in  a  letter  dated  May  16, 1906,  said : 

It  is  neuerally  aiJniitttHl  that  there  are  enoufch  freight  cars  In  service  to  liandle 
the  business  of  the  country  at  all  seasons,  provided  their  judlci»»us  distribution 
be  as«ti.(Hl.  Despite  that  fact,  large  orders  for  new  equipment  are  IkMuk  plactnl, 
and  uul«»ss  better  methods  prevail  to  supply  cars  that  are  needed,  railroad  com- 
panies may  t>e  forced  Into  exitendltures  which  the  adoption  of  improved  measures 
would  avoid. 

And  again  he  said: 

It  Is  generally  agree<l  that  there  are  cars  enough  to  handle  all  the  business  of 
the  countr>-  at  the  busiest  seastm,  provided  they  are  properly  moved. 

Mr.  Phei^n.  I  agree  with  that ;  there  is  no  question  about  that  in 
my  mind. 

Mr.  HiNN.  Mr.  Phelan,  a  road  which  is  incompetently  and  im- 
properly managed  would  decrease  its  efficiency,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Phei^n.  I  do  not  understand  the  last  question. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Would  decrease  its  efficiency? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Very  greatly. 

Mr.  BiNN.  Very  greatly  decrease  the  amount  of  freight  which  it 
could  handle? 

Mr.  Phelan.  That  depends  upon  what  you  would  compare  it  with, 
Mr.  Bunn. 

Mr.  Bi  NN.  Compared  with  its  maximum  efficiency. 

Mr.  Phelan.  What  would  you  base  your  maximum  efficiency  at — 
what  tigure? 

Mr.  Bunn.  Bad  management,  compared  with  good  management, 
would  decrea.se  greatly  the  effciency  or  any  railroad,  would  it  not? 

Mr.  Phei^n.  That  depends  whether  the  railroad  had  been  operated 
at  its  maxinunn  capacity. 

Mr.  Bunn.  If  it  would  not,  what  is  the  value  of  good  management? 

Mr.  Phelan.  The  value  of  good  management  is  in  having  things 
done  right,  and  for  the  least  co.st. 

Mr,  BiNx.  Good  management  increases  the  efficiency  of  any  rail- 
road— the  volume  of  business  which  it  would  handle? 

Mr.  Phelan.  It  surely  will;  ye.s,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Mr.  Phelan,  if  it  was  shown  to  you  that  the  Northern 
Pacific  Railroad,  with  a  single  track,  was  doing  more  business  than 
almost  any  double  track  in  the  United  States,  it  might  modify  your 
views  about  the  quality  of  its  management,  might  it  not,  Mr.  Pheljin? 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  have  no  criticism  to  make  of  the  Northern  Pacific 
as  a  management. 

Mr.  BiNx.  Mr.  Phelan,  you  have  assumed  to  say  that  the  Northern 
Pacific  management  was  bad. 

Mr.  Phelan.  No,  I  have  not;  you  misunderstand  me  in  that  par- 
ticular. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Just  a&sume  that  ^ou  have. 

Mr.  Phei>an.  I  won't  assume  it.  I  won't  be  put  in  the  position  of 
saying  the  Northern  Pacific  has  not  a  good  management;  1  know 
it  has. 


192  CAB  SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Phelan,  if  the  Northern  Pacific  was,  with  its 
single-track  line,  doing  more  business  than  most  double-track  lines  in 
the  United  States,  you  would  be  forced  to  admit  it  was  good  man- 
agement, would  you  not? 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  would  not  be  forced  to  admit  anything.  You  know 
when  things  are  so  apparently  wrong  and  carelessly  handled  there  is 
no  getting  around  that  fact.  That  is  the  trouble  to-day,  Mr.  Bunn. 
There  are  too  many  excuses  made ;  too  many  tables  made  out,  instead 
of  getting  right  down  and  doing  the  things  right.  I  live  among 
those  people  and  I  take  charge  of  my  shipments,  and  I  know  what  I 
am  talking  about.  I  know  I  have  to  stand  the  brunt  of  this.  I 
know  what  it  costs  me. 

Mr.  Bunn.  I  know  what  you  have  said,  Mr.  Phelan,  but  you  do 
not  seem  to  come  to  the  point. 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  will  come  to  the  point,  but  I  do  not  want  to  be  put 
in  the  position  of  reflecting  upon  the  management  of  the  Northern 
Pacific. 

Mr.  Bunn.  You  would  be  disposed  if  we  could  show  you  that  the 
road  is  doing  what  we  say — handling  more  business  with  a  single 
track  than  any  other  single  track  in  the  United  States,  and  more  than 
most  double  tracks — if  that  is  a  fact,  proAading  that  is  a  fact,  you 
would  admit  that  the  management  had  some  good  points,  would  you 
not? 

Mr.  Phelan.  I  did  not  question  the  good  points  of  the  Northern 
Pacific  management.  They  have  excellent  points,  and  they  are  very 
good  points.  It  is  only  in  the  local  conditions  and  the  weak  points 
that  the  management  is  not  willing  to  recognize  that  we  have  our 
trouble,  and  which  they  are  making  excuses  for  all  the  time. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  can  see  places,  as  a  railroad  man, 
where  if  you  were  in  control  and  could  spend  more  money  for 
machine  shops,  etc.,  that  you  could  better  the  service  to  the  public  ? 

^Ir.  Phelan.  I  believe,  above  all  things,  that  you  have  got  to  keep 
power  up  to  the  maximum  efiiciency.  You  have  got  to  have  shops; 
m  other  words,  engines  have  got  to  go  into  shops  at  the  end  of  the 
run  and  l^  constantly  repaired  and  constantly  attended  to. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Do  you  know  what  the  percentage  of  power  on  the 
Northern  Pacific  that  is  not  in  use  is — that  is  not  fit  for  use  ? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No  ;  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Bunn.  For  all  you  know,  it  is  very  high,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Phelan.  For  aught  I  know,  the  amount  is  not  high. 

Mr.  Bunn.  And  the  amount  is  efiicient? 

Mr.  Phelan.  Now,  that  would  depend  upon  whether  or  not  the 
efficient  was  on  paper  only  or  whether  it  was  actually  in  existence. 

Mr.  Bunn.  In  point  of  fact? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No;  I  think  that  most  of  the  power  represented  by 
general  comparisons  as  being  efficient  and  in  good  shape  is  far  below 
that  degree  of  efficiency. 

Mr,  Bunn.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Phelan — ^have  you  any  knoavledge 
on  the  subject,  or  have  you  had  an  intimation  that  the  Northern 
Pacific  had  cut  down  its  appropriations  for  maintenance  of  power 
and  repair  of  power? 

Mr.  Phelan.  No;  I  did  not  say  they  had  cut  down  the  appro- 
priation for  maintenance  of  power,  I  said  that  they  had  cut  down 
the  appropriations  for  materials  and  supplies.    I  understood  that 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  193 

had  boon  reduced  100  per  cent,  preventing  material  for  repairs  being 
available. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Phelan,  do  you  know  that? 

Mr.  Phelan.  ^Vhy,  as  near  as  I  can  observe  anything. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Is  it  not,  on  the  contrary,  the  fact  that  the  Northern 
Pacific  has  been  expending  every  year  an  increasing  amount  for 
materials,  supplies,  and  for  repairs  and  maintenance  of  locomotives? 

Mr.  Phelan.  On  that  score,  I  do  not  know  anything  about  that 
from  the  table  record. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

C.  H.  Thornton,  called  as  a  witness,  and,  being  duly  sworn,  was 
examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  AMiat  is  your  name,  sir? 

Mr.  Thornton.  Charles  H.  Thornton. 

Mr.  Marble.  AVliere  do  you  reside? 

Mr.  Thornton.  Duluth. 

Mr.  Marble.  WTiat  is  your  business? 

Mr.  Thornix)n.  I  publish  the  Daily  Market  Report  at  Duluth,  and 
the  Daily  Commercial  Record. 

Mr.  AIarble.  Is  it  a  part  of  your  duty  to  estimate  the  crops — the 
size  of  the  crops — in  the  Northwest? 

Mr.  Thornton.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  estimated  crops  in  the  Northwest 
for  going  on  ten  or  twelve  years. 

Air.  Marble.  Have  you  prepared  figures  for  this  hearing? 

Mr.  Thornton.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marbij:.  And  showing  the  size  of  the  crops  in  the  Northwest, 
comparatively? 

Mr.  Thornton.  I  can  give  you  those  olThand. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  How  does  the  crop  in  the  Northwest  this  year  com- 
pare with  last  year  ? 

Mr.  Thornton.  The  wheat  crop  this  year  is  substantially  the  same 
as  it  was  a  year  ago.  The  flax  crop  is  a  trifle  larger;  barley  10  per 
cent  smaller;  oat  crop  a  trifle  smaller. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  the  whole? 

Mr.  Thornton.  On  the  whole,  it  is  substantially  the  same  as  a  year 
ago,  with  this  diflference,  that  the  crop  is  not  distributed  as  it  was  a 
year  ago.     There  is  more  of  it  in  the  north  and  less  of  it  in  the  south. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  does  the  North  Dakota  crop  compare  with  last 
year  ? 

Mr.  Thornton.  I  did  not  make  up  my  crop  so  much  by  State.  I 
made  it  up  by  lines  of  railroad. 

Mr.  Marble.  Taking  the  Soo,  the  Great  Northern,  and  the  North- 
ern Pacific,  how  do  they  compare  with  last  year? 

Mr.  Thornton.  I  think  the  probabilities  are  that  the  grain  tonnage 
on  the  Northern  Pacific,  the  Soo,  and  the  Great  Northern  this  year 
will  exceed  anything  in  the  history  of  the  roads. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  proportion  couies  from  Canada? 

Mr.  Thornton.  There  is  a  small  portion  of  it  comes  from  Canada. 
I  doubt  if  a  million  bushels  comes  from  Canada.  I  was  not  figuring 
Canada  in  that  estimate. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  you  studied  the  movement  of  this  year's 
crop? 

S.  Doc.  33.3,  50-2 13 


194  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  TiioRXTON.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  you  studied  the  amount  into  both  Min- 
neapolis and  Duhith  ? 

Mr.  Thornton.  More  particuhirly  into  Duhith.  I  have  studied 
Minneapolis  in  a  general  way  to  keep  in  touch  with  the  movement, 
but  not  in  the  detail  that  I  have  at  Duhith. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  do  you  say  as  to  the  movement  into 
Duluth,  compared  with  previous  years? 

Mr.  Thornton.  Well,  the  movement  into  Duluth  this  year  is  the 
largest  since  1902 — largest  in  number  of  cars  and  largest  in  number 
of  bushels. 

Commissioner  Lane.  In  1902? 

Mr.  Thornton.  In  1902  the  number  of  cars  handled  was  larger 
than  in  this  year.  Understand,  I  am  speaking  of  the  four  months 
crop  year  that  has  already  elapsed. 

Commissioner  Lane.  September,  October,  and  November? 

Mr.  Thornton.  September,  October,  and  November.  In  1898, 
however,  we  handled  73,000  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Would  it  be  possible  to  have  these  figures 
filed? 

Mr.  Thornton.  There  are  only  a  few  of  them. 

Coimnissioner  Harlan.  Are  j'ou  going  to  be  in  Minneapolis  Friday 
night. 

Mr.  Thornton.  I  will  stay,  if  you  wish  me  to. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  was  just  thinking  perhaps  j^ou  could 
have  a  conference  with  Mr.  Marble  and  get  the  figures  in  some  shape, 
so  that  we  can  file  them  and  avoid  this  delay. 

^Ir.  Thornton.  I  will  put  them  in  shape.  The  only  important 
thing  about  it  is  that  in  1906,  the  four  months  of  this  year,  we 
handled  48.000  cars  against  79,000  cars  of  grain  in  1898,  a  decrease 
of  over  oO  per  cent — this  fall  in  units  of  grain  and  cars  of  grain — 
while  this  fall  we  handled  68,000  cars  of  coal,  a  very  great  increase 
over  anything  before. 

Commissioner  Lane.  A^Tiere  does  that  coal  go  to? 

Mr.  Thornton.  That  coal  went  mostly  west  and  from  the  Twin 
Cities. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  how  far  west? 

Mr.  Thornton.  I  have  been  told  that  a  fair  share — a  considerable 
amount  went  to  Montana.  I  am  not  speaking  of  exact  knowledge  in 
that  respect. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  will  now  take  an  adjournment  until  9 
o'clock  to-morrow  morning,  and  the  witnesses  will  please  be  on  hand 
promptly  at  9  o'clock. 

Thereupon,  at  5.15  o'clock,  the  Commission  adjourned. 


Minneapolis,  Minn.,  December  19^  1906^  9  a.  m. 
Commissioner  Lane.  Gentlemen,  I  have  two  telegrams  here  in  ad- 
dition to  those  received  last  night.     One  of  them  is  from  Casselton, 
N.  Dak.,  saying: 

About  100  tons  on  hand.  Ten  days  supply.  Possibly  less  coming  from  dis- 
tance for  coal  account;  \\o\\%  on  band  in  surrounding  towns;  railroads  have  good 
supply ;  no  suffering  as  yet,  but  If  unfavorable  weather  conditions  follow  con- 
sider situation  serious. 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  195 

Here  is  another  from  Inkster,  N.  Dak. : 

No  coal  in  store  here ;  supply  nearly  exhausted ;  no  suflforing  yet,  but  must 
have  coal  Imnietllately. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  have  here  the  fipires  from  the  Hanna  Coal  Com- 
pany, which  were  called  for  the  other  day.  I  will  furnish  you  with 
the  name  of  this  witness. 

(The  same  is  admitted  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1,  to 
A.  O.  Dieson.")    • 

Commissioner  Lane.  Proceed,  Mr.  Marble. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  have  handed  to  the  steno^apher  fipires  from  the 
M.  A.  Hanna  Coal  Company,  brought  in  by  Mr.  Dieson,  which  show 
shipments  of  coal,  i^ercentages  of  railroacl  coal,  and  also  a  car  an 
extraordinarily  long  time  on  the  road. 

I  have  some  pictures  which  I  would  like  to  put  in  the  record. 

The  first  shows  a  blockade  at  Anamoose,  N.  Dak.,  on  the  Soo  Line, 
on  October  25,  1906.  There  was  only  one  elevator  buying  grain  ancl 
that  has  a  large  storage  bin  under  construction.  The  otners  are  all 
full  and  out  or  the  market.  It  shows  the  wagons  lined  up  with  wheat 
for  market. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1 — 
Dec  19th  —  Marble.'^) 

These  are  all  of  the  same  general  character.  This  shows  60,000 
bushels  of  wheat  in  the  open  at  New  Rockford,  N.  Dak.,  November 
7,  1906,  and  all  the  elevators  full. 

(Same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  2 — Dec. 
19th— Marble.") 

Here  is  a  picture  from  Sheyenne,  N.  Dak.,  on  the  Northern  Pacific 
Railway,  showing  wagons  of  grain  waiting  at  the  elevator. 

(Same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  3 — Dec. 
19th— Marble.") 

Here  is  a  picture  of  the  Royal  Elevator  Company  at  Courtenay, 
N.  Dak.,  the  sheds  have  broken,  and  the  grain  in  the  open  bins  is  i)our- 
ing  out  on  the  ground. 

(Same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  4 — Dec 
19th— Marble.") 

Here  is  another  picture,  from  New  Rockford,  showing  wheat  in 
the  open  air  in  an  open  bin,  and  112,000  bushels  are  there. 

(Same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  5 — Dec. 
19th— Marble.") 

I  have  a  picture  of  .50,000  bushels  of  wheat  in  sacks  on  the  Pacific 
coast.    However,  that  is  on  the  O.  R.  and  N.,  and  I  will  not  offer  that. 

I  have  a  report  here  of  the  committee  on  grain  bhx'kade  at  Wilton, 
N.  Dak.,  to  the  Commercial  Club  of  the  town.  This  report  is  signed 
by  Ralph  W.  Anderson,  W.  P.  Macomber,  J.  C.  Anderson,  A.^. 
Blexrud,  George  A.  I^nhart,  and  J.  J.  Schmid.  It  is  in  line  with  the 
testimony  as  to  the  shortage  of  cars  and  the  inability  to  ship.  The 
point  of  interest  which  I  will  read  is  as  follows: 

In  u<l(lition  to  the  above,  at  this  point  are  located  the  mines  of  the  Washi)um 
Lijjnitc  Coal  Company,  which  are  the  largest  lignite  mines  in  the  Northwest. 
This  industry  has  been  paraly/^  by  the  lack  of  cars.  Kspociaiiy  is  it  noted 
tlmt  the  rai!ri;ad  company  doos  not  furnish  oimmi  or  gondola  cars  for  tliis  trade, 
and  tiicy  have  pressed  into  this  service  box  cars,  which  should  have  been  used 


196  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

for  the  grain  trade.  This  company  has  not  been  able  to  fill  Its  standing  orders 
for  coal,  without  considering  the  daily  orders.  The  mines  have  been  shut 
down  repeatedly  for  lack  of  cars,  while  the  State  is  suffering  for  the  lack  of 
coal. 

Furthermore,  regarding  the  Incoming  freight,  both  local  and  in  car  lots, 
business  has  been  stagnant  owing  to  the  failure  of  the  company  to  deliver 
goods  with  anything  like  promptness.  No  local  freight  has  been  received  here 
for  five  days.  It  has  taken  two  or  three  weeks  to  get  shipments  from  the  Twin 
Cities. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  7 — 
Dec.  19th— Marble.") 

I  have  here  another  picture,  in  the  shape  of  a  souvenir  postal  card 
from  New  Rockford,  showing  wheat  in  open  bins. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Perhaps  it  is  a  good  advertisement. 

Mr.  Marble.  Perhaps. 

(The  same  was  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  7 — 
Dec.  19th— Marble.") 

I  have  a  letter  from  Senator  Hansbrough  to  the  Commission,  which 
is  as  follows : 

I  inclose  herewith  two  clippings  from  the  North  Dakota  paper  which  appear 
to  th^ow  a  peculiar  light  upon  the  car-shortage  situation.  In  the  clipping 
marked  "  1,"  a  local  paper,  which  is  decidedly  hostile  to  corporations,  asserts, 
as  you  will  observe,  that  an  indignation  meeting  was  held  at  St.  Thomas,  N. 
Dak.,  and  that  cars  came  speedily  thereafter.  If  this  is  true  it  would  indicate 
that  the  railroads  are  in  a  position  to  furnish  cars  when  driven  to  it.  The  other 
clipping,  comprising  an  interview  with  Mr.  Charles  McCanna,  shows,  according  to 
his  statement,  that  at  his  station  they  have  been  unable  to  get  any  cars  during 
the  entire  season — that  Is,  that  only  six  cars  had  arrived  there,  and  they  were  the 
first  that  had  been  seen  for  months,  as  he  stated.  I  have  many  other  clippings 
of  a  less  Important  nature,  and  am  sending  these  to  you  because  they  set  forth 
conditions  which,  if  they  exist,  indicate  a  great  necessity  for  an  overhauling  of 
the  interstate  carriers  of  that  section. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  8 — 
Dec.  19th— Marble.") 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  have  other  letters  from  Senator  Hans- 
brough ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  letters  from  Senator  Hansbrough  to 
the  Commission  and  replies  from  the  Chairman  of  the  Commission 
to  him,  and  I  will  ask  that  those  be  introduced  without  reading. 

(The  same  are  hereto  annexed  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  9 — ^Dec 
19th— Marble.") 

I  have  also  a  great  number  of  letters  from  local  points,  some  ad- 
dressed to  Congressman  Marshall  and  brought  to  the  Commission 
by  him,  and  some  addressed  to  me,  and  these  are  generally  along  the 
line  of  the  testimony  taken,  regarding  the  situation  there,  showing 
shortage  of  cars — fewer  cars  this  year  than  last,  and  loaded  cars  not 
moving  in  many  instances,  etc.  Unless  the  Commission  desires,  I  will 
not  read  them. 

(The  same  are  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  10 — 
Dec.  19th— Marble.") 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  is  no  objection  to  counsel  seeing  them  if 
they  so  desire. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  have  a  table  showing  a  shortage  of  cars  in  Washing- 
ton for  lumber  shipments,  and  have  an  extract  from  the  report  of 
meeting  of  the  Pacific  Coast  Lumber  Manufacturers'  Association  at 
Seattle,  Wash.,  November  26,  1906,  showing  that  money  has  been 
raised  for  a  suit  to  be  brought  to  secure  redress,  and  giving  figures  on 
increase  in  equipment  and  then  statistics  on  the  car  situation,  showing 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  197 

cars  received  since  November  1,  and  mills  closed  down,  that  number 
being  6,  3  running  half  time,  1  running  one-third  time,  and  4  were 
closed  from  three  to  seven  days,  and  1  has  curtailed  output.  It  also 
shows  orders  canceled  on  account  of  car  shortage.  The  total  number 
of  carloads  canceled  were  348.  The  total  number  of  mills  reporting 
were  64.  It  shows  the  total  number  of  cars  needed — flat  cars — 
3^18. 

Box  cars  needed,  3,124. 

Grand  total  cars  needed,  6,442. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  11 — 
Dec  19th— Marble.") 

Fred.  A.  Keli-by,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified 
as  follows: 

Mr.  Marbi.e.  Your  name  is  Fred.  A.  Kelley? 

Mr.  Kelley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  reside  in  I^akota,  North  Dakota? 

Mr.  Kelley.  Lakota,  North  Dakota;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  an  attorney  at  law? 

Mr.  KELI.EY.  An  attorney  and  farmer. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  acquainted  with  the  shipping  situation  at 
your  town? 

Mr.  Kelley.  Well,  to  some  extent ;  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  heard  the  testimony  from  North  Dakota  wit- 
nesses that  we  have  had  that  they  have  been  unable  to  get  cars  for 
dipping? 

Mr.  Kelley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  true  of  your  town  ? 

Mr.  Kelley.  Particularly  true  of  the  shipping  point  from  whicli 
T  ship  my  grain.  My  farm  is  6  miles  out  or  Mapes.  That  is  on  the 
main  line  of  the  Great  Northern,  about  60  miles  west  of  Grand  Forks, 
and  it  has  been  almost  impossible  to  get  cars  sent  there. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  Do  you  know  the  efl^ct  upon  the  price  of  grain  ? 

Mr.  Kelley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  you  say,  as  the  other  witnesses  have,  that  it 
has  widened  the  margin? 

Mr.  Kelley.  There  is  no  question  about  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  No  question  about  that? 

Mr.  Kelley.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  coal  situation  at  your  town? 

Mr.  Kelley.  Hand-to-mouth  situation.  We  have  had  no  suffering 
there,  but  we  really  have  not  enough  coal  to  supply  the  demand.  Of 
course  the  people  have  borrowed  from  each  other  and  got  coal  in 
small  quantities,  so  they  have  been  able  to  get  along  with  their  coal 
there. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  They  would  bum  more  if  they  had  it  ? 

Mr.  Kelley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  trouble  with  the  slowness  of  movement 
of  cars? 

Mr.  Kelley.  Why,  all  I  know  about  it  is  what  the  public  generally 
know.     I  have  not  given  it  particular  attention. 

Mr.  Marbi.£.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.,  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 


198  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

J.  L,  La  VALLEY,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  name  is  J.  L.  Lavalley? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  at  the  town  of  Dazey,  N.  Dak.  ? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  I  don't  reside  there.     I  am  there  in  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  in  business  ? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  do  you  reside  ? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  At  Moorhead. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  acquainted  with  the  shipping  situation  at 
Dazey  ? 

LIr.  Lavalley.  I  am. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  heard  the  testimony  given  of  the  shortage 
of  transportation  facilities  ?     Is  that  true  of  your  town  ? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  It  is. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  as  much  grain  been  shipped  this  year  as  last? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  the  comparative  figures. 

Mr.  Lavalley.  I  know  the  comparative  figures  as  to  elevator  ship- 
ments. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  to  elevators  ? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  were  shipped  this  year? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  One  hundred  and  seventeen. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  last  year  ? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  Two  hundred  and  nineteen. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  the  track  loading. 

Mr.  Lavalley.  The  track  loading  consisted  of  3  cars  this  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  last  year? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  I  think  6. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  you  testify  as  other  witnesses  have  that  grain 
has  sold  for  less  money  than  it  would  have  if  transportation  facilities 
had  been  furnished? 

Mr.  LavalIxEy.  Yes;    I  would. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  difference? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  Well,  about  5  cents. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  grain  is  produced  to  be  marketed  at  your 
point-i 

Mr.  Lavalley.  About  five  hundred  thousand  bushels. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  farmers  sold  as  much  as  they  wanted  to? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  been  unable  to  find  a  market? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  They  have  been  unable  to  find  a  market. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  they  have  sold  more  grain  if  they  could? 

Mr,  Lavalley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  trouble  in  the  slowness  of  movement 
of  cars  ? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  We  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  the  same  manner  as  testified  here? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  Yes.  My  experience  has  been  like  that  of  the 
other  witnesses,  in  a  measure. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  so  much  ? 


<5a&  shortage.  199 

Mr.  La  VALLEY.  I  do  not  think  it  has  been  moved  as  rapidly  from 
our  town  as  they  have  from  some  larger  places. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  you  have  had  a  harder  time  than  some  of  the 
others  ? 

Mr.  La  VALLEY.  We  have  had  a  harder  time  than  some  of  the  others. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  trouble  with  airs  standing  after  being 
loaded  ? 

Mr.  La  VALLEY..  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  trouble  have  you  had? 

Mr.  La  VALLEY.  We  have  liad  cars  standing  on  the  sidetrack  after 
being  loaded  from  twenty  to  twenty-two  days  quite  frequetly. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  How  many  cars? 

Mr.  La  VALLEY.  A  large  number. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  how  man^  ? 

Mr.  Lav  alley.  As  high  as  six. 

Mr.  Marble.  Six  at  a  time? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  coal  condition  at  your  town? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  Very  serious — none  wliatever  up  to  Saturday,  when 
I  came  away. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  a  time  had  your  dealers  been  out  of  coal? 

Mr.  I^ VALLEY.  One  of  our  dealers  received  a  car  of  coal  a  week  ago 
to-day  and  the  same  dealer  received  some  a  week  previous  to  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  how  long  that  coal  had  been  in  transit? 

Mr,  Lavalley.  No,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  not  looked  into  that? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  No,  I  have  not  looked  into  that. 

Commis.sioner  Lane.  You  know  that  you  can  get  coal  now,  under 
promise  of  the  railroads? 

2klr.  Lavalley.  Yes,  I  wired  our  dealers  yesterday. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  complained  to  the  railroad  officials  about 
shortage  of  cars,  have  you  ? 

Mr.  Lavali^y.  I  have  not,  no ;  the  elevator  men  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  what  response  they  got? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  They  got  the  response  in  the  way  of  a  letter  from 
Mr.  Baird. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  was  that? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  Why,  he  alleged  it  was  on  account  of  the  car 
shortage  and  motive  power. 

Mr.  Marble.  Motive  power  and  car  shortage? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Baird  is  who? 

Mr.  L-WALLEY.  I  think  general  superintendent  of  the  Jamestown 
division. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Baird? 

Mr.  L.\VALLEY.  Mr.  Baird. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  you  think  he  is  superintendent  of  the  Northern 
Pacific  ? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  I  presume  he  is  division  suixjrinteudent.  I  can  get 
his  initials. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  road? 

Mr.  Lavalley.  That  is  the  Northern  Pacific 


200  CAB  SHOBTAGK 

Mr.  BuNN.  I  wish  you  would. 
Mr.  Lavauley.  All  right. 
(The  witness  was  excused.) 

George  T.  Slade,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified 
as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Slade,  you  reside  where? 

Mr.  Slade.  St.  Paul,  Minn. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  general  superintendent  of  the  Great 
Northern  Railroad  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  am. 

Mr.  Marble,  Are  you  short  of  cars  on  your  line? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  are  unable  to  furnish  cars  for  loading  at  all  points, 
to  fill  all  orders,  but  I  think  if  we  were  able  to  transport  cars  to 
destination  promptly  and  release  them  promptly  and  return  them  for 
loading  promptly  we  would  not  be  very  short  in  general.  We  might 
be  short  in  isolated  cases. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  short  of  power  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  No.    I  should  not  think  we  are  short  of  power. 

Mr.  M\RBLE.  Are  you  short  of  labor  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes ;  we  are  short  of  competent  labor. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  short  of  competent  labor  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  More  deficient  in  competent  labor  than  in  previous 
years? 

Mr.  Slade.  There  is  a  greater  shortage;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  why  that  is  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  It  would  appear  from  what  I  have  learned  from  dis- 
cussions of  the  subject  with  other  operating  officials  that  there  is  a 
general  shortage  of  competent  railroad  labor,  due  to  the  rapid  expan- 
sion of  the  railroad  traffic  of  the  country. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  that  other  railroads  are  suffering  as 
much  from  that  as  you  are  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  did  not  investigate  that  particular  when  talking 
to  other  officials  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Of  course  it  is  a  difficult  matter  to  make  a  comparison 
as  between  the  situation  on  one  line  and  the  situation  on  another  with 
respect  to  the  competence  of  their  skilled  and  unskilled  labor. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  consider  that  your  men — ^that  you  have  not 
been  able  to  give  them  sufficient  rest  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  No;  I  could  not  say  that  we  have  been  unable  to  give 
them  sufficient  rest. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  think  that  they  work  too  long  hours  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  think  not.  I  think,  in  isolated  cases,  men  may  have 
been  on  the  road  an  unusual  and  probably  an  unreasonable  number  of 
hours,  in  certain  instances. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  you  do  not  think  that  crews  have  been  kept  out 
generally  too  long  hours,  especially  the  trainmen  on  the  dead  freight 
trains  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  No;  I  could  not  say  it  was  a  general  condition. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  the  men  complaining? 

Mr.  Slade.  In  certain  instances  they  are,  and  in  other  instances 
they  are  not. 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  201 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  you  mean  some  are  willing  to  work  as  long 
hours  as  they  do,  and  are  not  complaining,  and  others  are  complain- 
ing? 

Mr.  Slade.  There  are  a  great  many  not  required  to  work  long 
hours,  and  not  complaining,  and  some  work  long  hours  who  want 
long' hours,  and  others  who  are  working  long  hours  say  they  feel 
they  would  rather  have  shorter  hours. 

Mr.  Marbij:.  You  prefer,  as  a  operating  railroad  man,  to  have  no 
one  work  long  hours  ? 

Mr.  Si^DE.  Absolutely. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  consider  it  detracts  from  their  efficiency  f 

Mr.  Slade.  Indeed  I  do;  yes,  indeed. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  hours  a  day  would  you  say  an  engineman 
should  work — be  on  duty,  whetlier  waiting  for  orders  or  running  a 
train? 

Mr.  Slade.  Thore  are  times  of  shortage  of  labor,  and  I  should  say 
the  trainmen  should  be  able  to  work  from  fifteen  to  sixteen  hours  out 
of  the  twenty-four,  and  still  have  sufficient  time  for  proper  rest. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  that  men  can  work  from  fifteen  to 
sixteen  hours  a  day  and  remain  efficient? 

Mr.  Slade.  Oh,  fen:  perhaps  a  week — ^two  or  three  days  or  perhaps 
a  week. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  they  should  have  how  much  rest  then  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Whatever  they  feel,  themselves,  to  be  necessary  in  order 
to  recuperate. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  the  shortage  of  labor  is  at  all 
due  to  the  best  men  leaving  you,  or  good  men  leaving  you  because  of 
the  long  hours  and  hardships  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  No;  I  think  not.  We  had  in  our  service,  employed  on 
June  30,  1905,  a  total  of  29,000  employees  on  the  Great  Northern 
system.  On  June  30,  1906,  we  had  a  total  of  37,000  employees  of  all 
classes — an  addition  of  8,()00  men  to  our  forces  during  a  period  of 
twelve  months.  That,  of  course,  necessitated  the  employment  of  a 
great  many  men  who  were  new  to  the  railroad  altogether ;  new  to  the 
situation  in  our  part  of  the  country,  which  has  reduced  the  general 
efficiency  of  the  entire  body  of  our  railroad  employees. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  you  put  on  absolutely  new  men  you  make  what 
you  call  a  cadet  of  him,  do  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  never  heard  the  expression  used  in  that  connection. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  put  him  on  the  waiting  list  or  extra  list? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  endeavor  to  assimilate  new  men  by  putting  them 
into  crews  with  older  employees. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  men  are  put  on  the  regular  list — put  in  the 
regular  service  and  taken  off  the  extra  list  in  order? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Even  with,  that  arrangement  you  think  you  have  to 
turn  new  men  out  at  too  great  a  rate  of  increase  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  think  there  is  no  question  of  that.  To  give  the  figures 
on  one  division  of  our  ffvstem,  we  have  57  conductors  in  freight  serv- 
ice on  one  division,  40  of  which  were  hired  in  the  year  1906. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  had  considerable  new  construction  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  A  great  deal  of  new  construction;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Principally  in  the  far  northwest  on  the  Canadian 
side,  north  of  the  Dakota  line  ? 


202  CAB   SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Slade.  There  has  only  been  two  bridges  built  north  of  the 
North  Dakota  line  this  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  other  construction  is  where? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  other  construction  is  in  North  Dakota  and  in 
British  Columbia. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  that  used  up  considerable  of  your  fuel  and  cars 
and  labor  for  the  transportation  of  material? 

Mr.  Slade.  It  has  taken  a  certain  number  of  employees  out  of  other 
service. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  that  help  to  explain  the  shortage  of  skilled 
employees  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  No;  not  to  any  great  extent.  The  percentage  of 
employees  and  percentage  of  men  assigned  to  that  service  is  small 
compared  to  the  total. 

Mr.  Marble.  AVhat  condition  is  your  roadbed  in  now? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  physical  condition? 

Mr.  Marble.  The  physical  condition  of  the  road. 

Mr.  Slade.  It  is  generally  in  good  condition. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  have  very  many  slow  orders  given  to  engineers 
on  heavy  freight  trains  because  of  the  condition  of  the  roadbed  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have  on  account  of  recent  storms  and  bad  weather. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  you  don't  take  storms  into  account;  go  back 
before  the  storms. 

Mr.  Slade.  On  our  main  line,  except  in  some  places  where  the 
roadbed  was  affected  by  unusual  weather  conditions,  there  has  been 
practically  no  slow  orders  outside  of  the  points  at  which  construction 
work  is  being  performed. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  the  branch  lines? 

Mr.  Slade.  Principally  on  the  main  line. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  the  branch  lines,  what  is  the  condition  of  the 
roadbed  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  It  is  generally  in  good  condition. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  able  to  make  time? 

Mr.  Slade.  In  general;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  man}'  locomotives  have  you? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have  823, 

Mr.  Marble.  On  the  entire  system? 

Mr.  Slade.  On  the  sj'stem. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  furnish  us  with  figures  showing  the  number 
on  each  division? 

Mr.  Si-\de.  That  can  be  furnished  from  the  records  in  that  way. 

Mr.  Marble.' And  the  number  of  box  cars;  how  many  box  cars 
have  you  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have  approximately  25,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  How^  many  of  your  cars  are  off  your  line  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  About  10  per  cent  of  our  total  equipment  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  in  number,  how  many  [handing  paper  to  wit- 
ness] ?     Perhaps  that  will  help  you. 

Mr.  Slade.  The  last  figure  shown  on  this  statement,  which  is 
approximately  correct  to  date,  is  6,057  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Off  your  line? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  foreign  cars  on  your  line  ? 


CAB  SHOBTAOE.  203 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have  a  total  of  other  companies'  cars  on  our  line  of 
9,4G'2. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  you  have  not  suffered  from  car  diversion? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have  a  balance  of  approximately  3,000. 

Mr.  Makble.  That  might  explain  the  car  shortage  somewhere  else  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Possibly. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tliose  figures  were  prepared  by  you  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  They  were  prepared  in  the  transportation  oflSce;  yes, 
sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  those  are  correct  for  the  Great  Northern  Rail- 
road? 

Mr.  Slaob.  According  to  the  freight  records;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Masblb.  I  will  ask  that  they  be  put  in  evidtnce  and  marked 
as  an  exhibit 

(The  same  are  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1 — 
Slade.") 

Can  you  suffgest  a  plan  which,  if  adopted  by  your  railroad  or  by 
railroads  of  tlie  country,  would  stimulate  the  movement  of  freight 
cars? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  could  not  make  any  suggestion  which  would  stimulate 
the  movement  to-day  or  to-morrow. 

Mr.  Marble.  Which,  if  put  into  operation  now,  would  stimulate 
the  movement  of  cars  for  the  next  busy  season,  beginning  next 
July,  say? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  think  that  the  plans  which  have  been  considered  by 
our  executives  for  the  improvement  in  our  facilities  and  the  increase 
in  equipment  should  be  sufficient  to  provide  for  the  carrying  of  traffic 
for  the  next  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  not  exactly  the  question  I  asked  you.  I  asked 
if  you  had  any  plan  which  would  stimulate  the  movement  of  freight 
cars  and  cause  cars  which  are  in  existence  to  cover  more  ground  and 
make  more  trips,  run  more  miles,  stop  fewer  days  or  hours  in  division 
points? 

Mr.  Slade.  That,  Mr.  Marble,  can  be  brought  down  to  a  question  of 
transportation  facilities — double  track  where  there  is  now  single 
track. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  think  Mr.  Marble  wants  to  know  whether 
you  have  any  suggestion  to  make  by  which  better  rasults  can  be  ac- 
complished with  the  present  conditions,  utilizing  the  present  amount 
of  facilities — any  suggestion  by  which  they  could  l>e  better  used. 

Mr.  Slade.  I  could  only  say  that  if  I  could  think  of  any  such  sug- 
gestions, I  would  put  them  into  operation  at  once,  so  far  as  the  road 
on  which  I  am  employed  is  concerned. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  power  to  increase  expenditures  to  secure 
better  results,  so  far  as  the  service  to  the  general  public  is  concerned  ? 

Mr.  S1.ADE.  To  a  limited  extent,  with  the  approval  of  and  after  con- 
sultation with  my  superior  officers;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  vou  able  to  make  any  recommendations  along 
that  line  by  which  a  iittle  less  economy  at  some  point  would  perhaps 
result  in  better  service  to-day  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have  not  during  the  past  few  months  considered 
economy  in  connection  with  the  movement  of  our  traffic  in  any  way, 


204  CAB  SHOBTAGE. 

shape,  or  manner.  "We  have  employed  all  of  the  force  that  could  bo 
used  to  advantage,  and  made  every  possible  effort  to  get  the  cars 
moved  promptly  and  the  best  service  possible  along  our  lines. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  last  few  months  have  been  times  of  trouble,  have 
they  not? 

Mr  Slade.  They  have,  sir 

Mr.  Marble.  Previous  to  that  time,  do  you  think  that  if  there 
had  been  less  economy  the  trouble  you  are  having  would  have  been 
avoided  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  you  can  not  avoid  the  same  trouble  in  tho 
future  without  double-tracking  and  increasing  the  equipment  and 
improving  terminal  facilities,  and  you  have  no  improvement  to  sug- 
gest in  the  methods  of  operation  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  can  think  of  none ;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  familiar  with  the  letters  which  Mr.  Midgley, 
of  Chicago,  has  been  sending  out  relative  to  this  car  shortage  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  his  statement  that  there  is 
enough  equipment  in  the  country  to  accommodate  the  business  of  the 
country  at  the  busiest  time  if  properly  used,  and  that  it  is  conse- 
quently up  to  the  railroad  officers  now  to  devise  means  to  utilize  that 
equipment  and  stimulate  the  movement  of  freight  cars  if  they  desire 
to  avoid  Government  ownership?  I  am  giving  you  Mr.  Midgley's 
views  now  and  not  anyone's  else. 

Mr.  Slade.  I  am  familiar  with  those  letters. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  familiar  with  those  letters? 

Mr,  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  agree  with  his  remedy  of  the  car  pool  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  do  not,  no;  not  as  applied  to  our.  own  particular 
conditions,  with  which  I  am  best  acquainted. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  had  a  car  pool  you  would  be  about  3,000  cars 
poorer,  however,  than  you  are  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir;  to-day. 

Mr  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Slade,  you  say  you  have  823  loco- 
motives at  this  time  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  are  new  during  this  year? 

Mr.  Slade.  There  have  been  added  to  our  equipment  since  June  30, 
1905, 120  locomotives  to  date. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  how  many  are  in  the  shops  at 
this  present  moment  for  repairs? 

Mr.  Slade.  Approximately;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  is  that  percentage? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  think  about  7  or  8  per  cent. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  how  that  number  of  loco- 
motives compares  with  the  number  of  locomotives  on  other  north- 
western lines? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  think  probably  the  percentage  is  the  lowest.  I  make 
that  statement  for  the  reason  that  it  is  the  lowest  percentage  of  loco- 
motives out  of  service  we  have  ever  had  on  our  system.  I  thinlc  that 
the  work  could  hardly  be  kept  up  any  closer  than  it  is  with  us. 


OAB  SHORTAGE.  205 

Commissioner  Harijvn.  How  do  the  total  numlx»r  of  locomotives 
compare  with  the  total  number  of  miles  and  tonnage,  compared  with 
other  northwestern  roads  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  have  never  made  any  such  comparison. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Is  it  not  the  general  understanding  that 
there  are  less  locomotives  on  your  line  than  other  nortii western  roads? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  have  never  heard  the  stateuient  made ;  no,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  there  a  uniform  scale  of  wages  on  all 
these  northwestern  lines  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Not  absolutely  uniform.  The  general  basis  is  the  same 
on  the  northwestern  lines. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  So  in  a  general  way  you  would  say  that 
your  labor  is  paid  just  as  much  as  other  lines'  in  the  same  territory? 

Mr.  Slade.  It  is  not  paid  any  less  in  any  case,  and,  if  anything, 
more. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Now,  Mr.  Slade,  there  have  been  several 
statements  made  here  in  relation  to  the  great  quantities  of  wheat 
lying  on  the  ground  at  particular  points  on  your  lines.  Have  you 
taken  any  special  measures  to  give  relief  at  those  points  ? 

Mr.  Si^DE.  I  have  not  heard  the  name  of  a  single  station  on  our 
line  mentioned  at  which  there  was  grain  piled  out  of  doors  on  th*j 
ground. 

Commissioner  Hari^n.  Perhaps  I  am  in  error.  Perhaps  it  is  on 
the  other  lines.  You  have  heard  statements  of  elevators  filled  and 
where  a  great  quantity  of  wheat  is  waiting  to  be  moved. 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  taken  any  measures  to  give  relief 
at  those  points  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  endeavored  to  relieve  the  stations  at 
which  the  elevators  were  blocked  in  order  to  allow  thorn  to  receive 
grain  in  preference  to  relieving  stations  where  the  elevators  were 
open  and  all  receiving  grain. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  were  those  measures?  Just  sending 
more  cars  in  ?    Is  that  all  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  By  giving  them  cars  in  preference  to  places  able  to  do 
business. 

Mr.  Begg.  Mr.  Slade,  how  many  locomotives  has  your  company 
bought  this  year  that  have  not  yet  lH»en  delivered? 

Mr.  Sijvde.  No  locomotives  which  have  l>een  contracted  for  and 
time  of  delivery  which  has  now  passed  that  have  not  l)cen  delivered. 

Mr.  Begg.  There  are  some  contracted  for  that  are  to  be  delivered 
later? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes. 

Mr.  Begg.  How  many  of  those? 

Mr.  Slade.  One  hundred  and  fifty. 

Mr.  Begg.  Will  you  explain  the  percentage  of  increase  in  the  tract- 
ive power  of  these  new  locomotives — that  is,  is  the  tractive  power 
greater  than  or  less  than  the  percentage  of  increase  of  numl)er  of 
locomotives  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  percentage  is  very  much  greater.  The  additional 
tractive  power  of  the  120  locomotives  is  somewhat  over  20  per  cent, 
if  I  rememl)er  correctlv. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  would  say  that  the  increase  in  tractive  power  is  20 
per  cent  ? 


206  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Slade.  The  increase  in  number  of  locomotives  would  be  ap- 
proximately 15  per  cent,  and  the  increase  in  tractive  power  would  be 
aj)proximately  20  per  cent. 

Mr.  Begg.  Yes.  Now,  120  locomotives  were  secured  last  year.  Did 
that  increase  the  tractive  power  of  the  equipment  a  greater  percent- 
a^'fi  than  the  increase  in  the  number  of  locomotives? 

Mr.  Slade.  That  is  the  point  I  was  trying  to  make,  that  in  the 
number  of  locomotives  it  was  15  per  cent,  and  the  total  increase  in 
the  tractive  power  20  per  cent. 

Mr.  Begg.  Do  you  know  what  the  increase  of  business  was  during 
that  same  period — the  volume  of  traffic? 

Mr.  Slade.  For  the  fiscal  year  ? 

Mr.  Begg.  Yes. 

Mr.  Slade.  I  think  the  tons  moved  1  mile  showed  an  increase  of  at 
least  16  per  cent. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  made  a  statement  of  the  causes  of  the  delays  in  the 
movement  of  cars.  What  is  the  one  thing  above  all  others  that  delays 
freight  cars  in  their  movement  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  greatest  delay,  of  course,  is  in  relieving  equipment 
after  it  reaches  its  destination. 

Mr.  Begg.  At  the  terminal  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  Is  your  company  making  all  the  efforts  it  can  to  in- 
crease terminal  facilities  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  are  ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  Are  there  any  special  difficulties  in  the  way  of  increasing 
terminal  facilities  at  this  time? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  special  difficulties  we  have  encountered  this  year 
have  been  shortage  of  labor  and  shortage  of  material. 

Mr.  Begg.  It  is  impossible  to  do  the  work — you  are  familiar  with 
the  causes  that  have  led  up  to  this  condition,  which  made  it  difficult 
to  furnish  cars  for  wheat  and  the  like.  Will  you  explain  it  at  length 
to  the  Commission,  just  what  you  think  the  causes  have  been  that  led 
up  to  this  delay,  so  far  as  your  system  is  concerned  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  In  the  first  place,  the  increase  in  the  general  traffic; 
the  greater  movement  over  our  main  line,  due  to  the  increased  con- 
sumption of  manufactured  articles  in  the  cities  of  the  West  and  towns 
of  the  West,  and  the  greater  demand  for  the  various  products  of  the 
Pacific  coast;  the  increased  density  of  population,  with  consequent 
increased  demand  for  transportation  in  the  Northwest.  And,  aside 
from  any  of  the  increases  in  traffic,  the  very  peculiar  weather  condi- 
tions which  we  have  had  throughout  the  entire  territory  covered  bv 
our  lines  during  the  past  twelve  months — unusual  wet  weather,  with 
washouts  in  Montana  in  the  spring;  usually  dry  weather  in  North 
Dakota  during  the  summer;  unusually  wet  weather  in  Minnesota  dur- 
ing the  summer;  the  storms  of  unprecedented  severity  in  the  State  of 
Washington ;  the  absolute  cessation  for  a  period  of  a  week  in  western 
Washington;  the  recent  terrific  blizzards  in  North  Dakota. 

Mr.  Begg.  How  long  have  those  blizzards  lasted  now  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have  had  practically  continuous  blizzards  in  the 
State  of  North  Dakota  for  a  period  of  thirty-one  days.  Tlie  first 
heavy  snowstorm  came  on  the  17th  day  of  November,  and  was  in 
evidence  this  morning  in  North  Dakota. 


CAB    SHORTAGE.  207 

The  situation  has  been  further  comphcated  in  our  case  by  the 
strike  of  the  coal  miners  at  the  mines  of  Crows  Nest  Pass,  from  which 
we  had  been  receiving  approximately  one-quarter  of  our  total  fuel 
for  locomotive  use.  The  strike  continued  for  a  period  of  nearly  two 
months,  from  the  22d  of  September  to  the  20tn  of  November,  and 
during  that  time  we  were  compelled  to  use  fuel  of  inferior  quality, 
were  unable  to  secure  fuel  in  sufficient  (juantities,  and  were  at  times 
unable  to  move  our  traffic  on  account  of  having  insufficient  fuel  to 
place  on  our  tenders. 

Mr.  Beoo.  Mr.  Slade,  in  addition  to  being  required  to  use  inferior 
coal,  what  effect  did  it  have  on  the  employees,  when  this  change  was 
made? 

Mr.  Slade.  It  was  extremely  demoralizing  to  the  men.  The  fuel 
from  British  Columbia  was  of  a  very  high  class  and  gave  splendid 
results,  but  the  fuel  which  replaced  it  was  of  such  inferior  quality 
that  it  caused  a  great  deal  of  discouragement  among  the  men,  and 
while  we  were  able  to  move  our  trains,  a  part  of  our  trains  with  the 
fuel,  a  great  many  of  our  engines  failed  for  steam.  It  was  impossible 
to  keep  them  running  as  they  should. 

Mr.  Beqq.  Did  any  of  your  firemen  abandon  work  because  they 
had  to  use  that  inferior  quality  of  coal? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes;  we  had  cases  in  which  we  had  to  send  out  as 
many  as  three  firemen  on  passenger  trains  to  protect  freight  trains, 
to  bring  them  into  the  terminals. 

Mr.  Beqo.  Now,  are  there  any  other  matters  that  you  have  in 
mind  which  contributed  to  bring  about  this  condition? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  think  that  it  was  upon  the  subject  of  rapid  increase 
in  the  number  of  employees — the  difficulty  of  securing  sufficient 
competent  men  to  handle  our  traffic,  and  I  consider  that  one  of  the 
greatest  obstacles  that  we  have  had  to  successful  operations  this 
year. 

Mr.  Beoo.  Now,  the  westbound  traffic  has  increased  a  great  deal 
this  year? 

Mr.  vSlade.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Beoo.  That  decreased  the  empty  car  movement  West,  and 
has  made  the  return  of  cars  to  the  west  somewhat  slower  than  would 
be  the  case  in  ordinary  seasons  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  true. 

Mr.  Beoo.  What  efforts  have  your  company  made  to  improve 
facilities  for  doing  business  in  territory  that  is  congested  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  greatest  help  to  our  operations  this  fall  would 
have  been  the  completion  of  our  extension  from  Aneta  to  Devils 
Lake,  North  Dakota. 

Had  that  line  been  completed,  we  would  have  diverted  a  portion 
of  the  traffic  which  now  passes  over  our  line  between  Devils  Lake 
and  Larimore,  North  Dakota.  It  would  have  very  much  facilitated 
the  movement  of  our  traffic  from  North  Dakota  to  points  south,  to 
Breckenridge,  Minn. 

Mr.  Beoo.  In  other  words,  you  would  have  practically  had  a  double 
track  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  would  have  had  a  double  track,  had  that  line  been 
constructed ;  ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Beoo.  Now,  give  the  obstacles  in  the  way  of  the  completion  of 
that  line. 


208  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Slade.  Primarily,  delay  in  receiving  material  and  shortage  of 
labor. 

Mr.  Beqq.  Simply  could  not  get  the  material  and  labor  in  there  to 
complete  it? 

Mr.  Slade.  That  was  all. 

Mr.  Begkj.  It  was  planned  early  last  winter? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  And  begun  early  in  the  spring? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr  Begg.  Whet  additions  has  the  company  made  to  its  facilities 
in  the  direction  of  water  tanks  and  the  like  looking  to  the  increase  of 
facilities  in  that  territory  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have  under  construction  at  the  present  time  some- 
thing over  100  miles  of  additional  passing  tracks  and  yard  tracks,  and 
have  done  a  great  deal  in  the  way  of  providing  new  water  supply. 

Mr.  Begg.  Reservoirs? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have  constructed  reservoirs. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  have  also  located  shops  up  in  that  territory? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir;  we  are  extending  our  shop  facilities  to  meet 
the  reqruirements  of  our  increased  equipment. 

Mr.  Begg.  Where  are  those  shops  to  be  located  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  are  locating  a  shop  at  Devils  Lake,  North  Dakota. 

Mr.  Begg.  Have  you  improved  your  facilities  for  furnisliing  coal  in 
that  territory  also? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Begg.  Have  you  increased  your  coal  sheds  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir ;  we  have  made  a  number  of  such  improvements 
every  year. 

Mr.  Begg.  Then,  you  attribute  this  congested  condition  more  than 
anything  else  to  the  exceptional  circumstances  which  have  existed 
there  this  year — largely  weather  conditions? 

Mr.  Slade.  Labor  and  weather  conditions,  in  a  word. 

Mr.  Begg.  Mr.  Slade,  from  time  to  time  during  the  hearing,  there 
has  been  a  suggestion  that  if  trains  were  reduced  in  size  it  would 
facilitate  the  movement  of  freight  over  the  road.  Will  you  please 
state  what,  in  yom*  opinion,  would  be  the  effect  of  reducing  the  ton- 
nage of  your  trains,  mcreasing  the  number  of  your  trains,  upon  the 
movement  of  freight  along  the  road,  of  course,  and  terminals  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  In  places  the  result  of  such  a  policy  would  simply  be 
to  prevent  the  movement  of  as  much  traffic  as  is  handled  under  the 
present  operating  conditions.  By  increasing  the  number  of  trains  on 
a  congested  district  you  would  have  so  many  trains  on  the  road  that 
you  would  be  more  delayed — the  delays  would  probably  be  more  in 
meeting  trains  than  the  delays  are  now,  due  to  the  slower  movement 
between  the  stations — than  with  the  engine  loaded  to  a  reasonable — 
the  engine  pulling  a  reasonable  load. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Slade,  just  explain,  if  you  please,  when 
you  take  a  train  of  40  cars  and  split  it  up  into  2  trains  of  20  cars 
why  would  you  not  make  more  speed  in  that  manner  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Between  stations  ? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes,  sir;  there  would  be  practically  the 
same  tonnage  to  handle.  Now  those  things  I  do  not  know  about, 
and  I  would  like  to  know  why  the  splitting  up  of  a  train  in  that  way, 


CAB   SHORTAQE.  209 

which  would  enable  you  to  make  faster  time,  would  necessarily  tend 
to  congest  the  movement. 

Mr.  Slade.  For  this  reason:  The  meeting  points  between  trains 
increase,  not  directly  with  the  number  of  trains  run,  but  as  the  square 
of  the  number  of  trains  run.  For  instance,  witli  2  trains  in  each 
direction  over  a  division  there  are  four  meeting  points.  With  three 
trains  in  each  direction  there  are  nine  meeting  points.  With  four 
trains  in  each  direction  there  are  sixteen  meeting  points. 

And  the  increased  number  of  trains  running  out  of  terminals  will 
cause  more  delay  at  the  meeting  points,  making  it  necessary  for  trains 
to  take  the  sidetracks  oftener  tnan  if  the  trains  were  loacied  so  that 
the  engines  could  move  with  reasonable  speed  over  the  road  and  have 
fewer  meeting  points  and  get  into  the  sidetracks  lisss  often. 

Commissioner  Lane.  \lr,  Slade,  jou  said  in  answer  to  Mr.  Begg's 
question  that  you  thought  the  conditions  prevailing  on  your  road  were 
due  to  weather  conditions  and  labor  conditions  largely. 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  up  to  the  17th  of  November,  what 
exceptional  weather  condition  was  there  1 

Mr.  Slade.  We  had,  previous  to  that  time,  an  absolute  cessation 
of  traffic  on  the  Cascade  Mountains,  due  to  washouts  in  Washington, 
and  the  consequence  of  that  has  been  to  retard  the  movement  or 
eastbound  traffic,  causing  an  accumulation. of  business  on  the  west- 
em  side  of  the  Cascade  Mountains,  whicli  we  have  been  unable  to 
reduce.  That  has  prevented  that  equipment  from  coming  into 
eastern  territory  to  be  unloaded. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  have  cars  there  to  move  lumber, 
do  you,  on  the  west  side  of  the  Cascades? 

Mr.  Slade.  It  is  not  possible  to  move  as  much  lumber  as  the  peo- 
ple want  to  ship,  but  still  it  delayed  the  loading,  which  was  very 
nearly  equal  to  our  ability — very  near  our  capacity  of  eastbound 
movement  over  the  Cascade  Mountains. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  have  information  in  the  Commission 
that  there  has  been  discrimination  against  their  lumber,  and  that 
they  have  not  had  the  same  number  of  cars  as  at  any  previous  season. 

Mr.  Slade.  I  do  not  think  that  lias  been  true  on  our  line.  I  think 
our  statistics  show  that  they  have  loaded  more  lumber  during  this 
year  than  in  previous  years. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  is  a  matter  of  which  you  probably  have 
knowledge  that  lumbermen  of  the  Northwest  are  preparing  now  to 
present  a  case  either  before  the  Commission  or  before  the  courts 
against  roads  in  the  Northwest  for  lack  of  cars? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes;  I  have  heard  of  such  a  movement. 

Commissioner  Lane.  At  any  rate  these  cars  that  did  not  come 
over  the  Cascade  could  have  come  around  loaded  with  lumber,  and 
then  they  could  have  relieved  the  wheat  situation — could  have  been 
brought  Dack  as  empties  to  North  Dakota  and  loaded  with  grain? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  su*;  but  instead  of  doing  that — we  were  unable  on 
account  of  this  large  business  to  move  the  business  and  the  cars; 
many  of  them  are  still  standing  west  of  the  Cascade  Mountains. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  cars  have  you  got  stationed  west 
of  the  Cascades? 

Air.  Slade.  About  1,200. 

B.  Doc.  333, 59-2 14 


210  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Loaded  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  unloaded  cars? 

Mr.  Slade.  In  all,  including  the  number  which  are  in  transit  to 

Eoints  to  be  loaded,  approximately  115  or  120  cars  a  day — they  are 
eing  loaded  there. 

Commissioner  Lane.  At  the  worst  time,  during  that  period  of 
congestion  out  there,  how  many  cars  did  you  have  tied  up  west  of 
the  Cascades? 

Mr.  Slade.  About  the  same  number  we  have  at  the  present  time. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  could  not  get  those  around  the  Cascades 
in  any  way? 

Mr.  Slade.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  If  that  situation  had  been  cleared  up,  how 
much  would  it  have  tended  to  relieve  the  situation  in  North  Dakota  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  If  that  situation  had  been  cleared  up  and  we  had  had 
sufficient  fuel  of  a  proper  quality  on  the  western  portion  of  our  line, 
I  think  it  would  have  made  a  very  material  difference  here  on  the 
e.istorn  end  of  the  line  in  the  matter  of  supplying  equipment. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  cars  diet  you  say  you  had  that 
belonged  to  other  lines  in  excess  of  the  cars  they  had  that  belonged 
to  you? 

Mr.  Slade.  Approximately,  3,000,  as  shown  by  this  statement. 
[Indicating]. 

Commissioner  Lane.  So  you  have  more  cars  in  excess  of  the  number 
that  other  roads  have  of  yours  then — probably  three  times  as  many 
as  are  tied  up  west  of  the  Cascades  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Over  twice  as  many. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Over  twice  as  many? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  then,  you  ought  to  be  able  to  figure 
upon  your  own  equipment  in  loading  those  cars? 

Mr.  Slade.  Oh,  yes. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Then,  having  twice  as  many  cars  belonging 
to  other  lines,  as  you  lose  west  of  the  Cascades,  you  still  are  not  able 
to  move  your  crop  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes;  but  of  course  the  equipment  that  comes  to  us 
under  load  is  foreign  equipment  and  largely  loaded  with  commodities 
which  can  not  be  transferred,  and  which  go  through  to  the  far  West. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Could  not  those  cars  then  be  used  for  these 
purposes  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  general  custom — of  course,  as  soon  as  our  line  was 
opened  up  in  the  Cascades  we  moved  them  as  fast  as  we  could.  We 
have  .been  moving,  approximately,  the  daily  loadings,  but  we  have 
not  been  gaining  very  much  on  the  accumulation,  so  we  still  have 
that  number  of  cars  tliere.  A  number  of  cars  in  transit  with  commod- 
ities going  to  the  Pacific  coas',  and  those  nmning  east,  makes  that 
number  of  cars  a  dead  loss — they  are  probably  standing  still. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  you  don't  give  any  preference  to  the 
traffic  that  moves  from  the  Pacific  coast  as  against  traffic  moving 
from  North  Dakota,  do  you  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  No,  sir;  onh-  to  this  extent,  that  we  give  preference  to 
merchandise  and  high-<]i  ss  freight  to  the  Pacific  coast  and  to  local 


GAB  SHOBTAGB.  211 

points  on  the  line,  and  to  North  Dakota  pomts  over  ordinary  common 
ireight. 

Commissioner  IjANE.  Do  you  remember  when  this  Commission  held 
a  hearing  regarding  the  relation  of  grain  elevators  to  railroads) 

Mr.  Slade.  I  saw  mention  of  it  in  the  papers;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  remember  that  testimony  was  given 
as  to  the  congestion  of  the  wheat  business — the  grain  business  along 
the  line  of  your  railroad  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  IjANE.  That  was  prior  to  the  blizzard  id  North 
Dakota,  was  it  not? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  developed  that  condition,  then,  at  the 
time  of  normal  weather  in  North  Dakota? 

Mr.  SliVDE.  The  crop  movement  was  somewhat  peculiar  this  year. 
We  had,  at  the  opening  of  the  crop — at  the  beginning  of  the  crop 
movement,  a  very  considerable  number  of  empty  cars  standing  idle. 
Those  cars  were  standing  on  the  tracks,  where  we  expected  they  would 
be  loaded  with  grain  as  soon  as  the  grain  commenced  to  move.  They 
were  moved  to  the  grain-shipping  points  in  anticipation  of  the  grain 
movement.  The  grain  came  in  quite  rapidly.  Weather  conditions 
were  such  that  threshing  progressed  without  very  much  interruption 
on  account  of  the  usual  damp  rains,  which  did  not  occur  this  year  in 
North  Dakota,  and  the  cars  were  loaded  very,  very  quickly — faster, 
in  fact,  than  we  could  transport  them.  The  grain  loaded  on  some  of 
our  divisions  was  probably,  each  day,  twice  the  number  of  cars  which 
that  division  could  transport,  under  favorable  conditions,  simply  for 
the  reason  that  the  cars  had  been  accumulated,  and  naturally  there 
would  be  some  delay  under  those  conditions  to  some  of  those  ship- 
ments until  the  cars  had  begun  to  enter  the  terminals  and  become 
relieved  and  taken  back  out  to  the  lines  to  be  furnished  in  the  usual 
course  of  the  handling  of  the  grain  business.  Some  of  those  cars 
were  delayed  to  an  extent  which  called  forth  some  criticism. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  heard  the  testimony  here  as  to  the  many 
cars  which  are  taken  from  twenty  days  upward  to  pass  250  miles? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes;  I  have  heard  that  testimony.     I  do  not  think 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  you  do  not  regard  as  a  reasonable  time? 

Mr.  Slade.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  think  there  were  any  cars  on  our  line 
moving  from  points  within  200  miles  of  the  terminal  which  were  so 
delayed. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  think  there  were? 

Mr.  Slade.  There  may  have  been  isolated  cars,  but  there  was 
no  general  detention.  The  cars  which  were  detained  were  those 
moving  some  400  or  500  miles  and  were  required  to  move  through  a 
congested  territory,  where,  on  account  of  our  failure  to  secure  the 
completion  of  another  line  we  were  handling  a  traffic  in  excess  of  the 
capacity  of  our  line — far  in  excess  of  the  capacity  of  the  line,  for 
the  reason  that  we  had  already  arranged  over  a  year  ago  to  complete 
another  line  to  relieve  that. 

Commissioner  Lane.  WTiat  exceptional  labor  condition  did  you 
suffer  under  that  all  the  other  railroads  did  not  suffer  under? 


212  CAB   SHOBTAGB. 

Mr.  Slade.  Well,  from  my  conversations  with  other  railroad  offi- 
cials, I  should  judge  we  are  all  suffering  to  about  the  same  extent  and 
in  about  the  same  way. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  miles  of  road  have  you  built  ia 
the  last  year? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  additional  mileage  now  open  for  operation  is  less 
than  200. 

Conunissioner  Lane.  Less  than  200  during  the  year? 

Mr.  Slade.  Now  open,  although  there  is  some  more  mileage  under 
construction  and  very  nearly  completed. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  would  that  amount  to! 

Mr.  Slade.  That  would  amount  to  probably  200  miles  more. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  total  miles  of  your  system  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  total  mileage  is  approximately  6,000  miles. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  much  of  that  is  double  tracked  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have,  altogether,  about  700  of  double  track,  but 
throughout  a  great  part  of  our  territory,  if  you  will  examine  the  map, 
you  mil  find  that  instead  of  having  double-track  lines,  we  have  second 
single-track  lines.  There  is  one  part  of  the  territory  in  the  Red  River 
VaSey  where  we  have  six  parallel  lines,  giving  us  an  opportunity  to 
divide  the  through  traffic  between  different  routes.  We  have  two 
main  lines  from  St.  Paul  to  the  Red  River  Valley,  one  by  way  of 
Melrose  and  Bamsville  and  the  other  by  way  of  Willmar  and  Breck- 
enridge. 

Commissioner  HIarlan.  Has  there  not  been  a  similar  congestion  on 
each  of  those  main  lines  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  No,  sir;  not  on  either  of  those  lines. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Would  not  those  congestions  at  some  of 
the  points  been  relieved  by  second  tracks  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  greatest  relief  would  have  been  secured  had  we  had 
in  operation  our  line  from  Aneta  to  Devils  Lake.  I  think  that  relief 
would  have  been  valuable  to  the  greatest  possible  extent  this  year. 

Mr.  Begg.  What  effect  had  the  drought  in  North  Dakota  on  your 
water  supply  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  It  has  had  a  very  serious  effect  upon  our  water  supply, 
particularly  upon  one  branch  and  one  of  our  mam  line  divisions. 

Mr.  Begg.  And  your  failure  to  get  cars  over  the  Cascades  has  been 
due  largely  to  the  failure  of  the  good  coal  supply  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  That  is  largely  the  cause  of  our  failure  since  the  wash- 
outs to  reduce  the  accumulation. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  this  bad  coal  you  use? 

Mr.  Slade.  It  is  a  coal  mined  along  the  Pacific  coast,  which  is 
about  half  as  efficient  as  the  coal  from  the  Crows  Nest  Pass. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Around  Seattle  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  That  is  coal  mined  on  the  Pacific  coast,  in  the  Pacific 
Coast  Coal  Company's  mines. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  the  same  kind  of  coal  that  the  South- 
em  Pacific  uses,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  think  that  the  Southern  Pacific  is  using  oil  largely, 
now. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Those  coal  mines  were  originally  opened  by 
the  Southern  Pacific  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  could  not  say. 


OAR  SHOBTAOE.  213 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  coal  in  and  around  Seattle  was  the  coal 
used  by  the  Great  Northern  and  the  Northern  Pacific  west  of  the 
Cascades  divisions  for  years? 

Mr.  Slade.  Yes;  there  are  some  of  the  better  mines,  some  of  the 
hifjher  class  fuel  mines,  but,  owing  to  the  great  general  demand  for 
fuel  in  that  territory,  the  miners  have  been  very  careless  in  the  produc- 
tion of  their  coal  and  they  have  given  us  a  good  deal  worse  coal  from 
the  same  mines  than  we  had  heretofore,  and  also  there  were  some 
of  the  mines  from  which  we  had  never  taken  coal,  and  the  coal  proved 
to  be  very  unsatisfactory. 

Mr.  Beoo.  If  you  cut  your  freight  trains  in  two — double  the  num- 
ber of  trains — what  effect  would  that  have  upcm  the  number  of  crews 
(employees)  required?     Would  it  make  double  the  crews? 

Mr.  Slade.  rerhans  not  double  the  crews — yes;  I  think  it  would 
probably  take  double  the  number  of  train  men — anyway,  nearly 
double. 

Mr.  Beoo.  Do  you  think  you  could  get  twice  as  many  men  as  you 
have  now? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  am  certain  we  could  not. 

Mr.  Beoo.  The  hauling  of  heavy  trains  is  necessary  to  get  the  traffic 
over  the  road? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  do  not  think  we  haul  heavy  trains. 

Mr.  Beoo.  I  mean  hauling  trains  as  heavy  as  you  do. 

Mr.  Slade.  We  are  loading  to-day  in  North  Dakota  trains  of  17 
or  18  cars,  which  is  the  limit  of  the  capacitv  of  the  locomotives  under 
the  present  weather  conditions,  and  I  would  not  call  those  lai^e  trains. 

Mr.  Beoo.  Then,  your  object  is  not  to  make  tonnage — to  move  the 
traffic,  that  is  what  your  object  is? 

Mr.  Slade.  To  move  it  to  tiie  best  possible  advantage. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  mean  just  that,  Mr.  Slade — are  we  to  under- 
stand that  what  is  called  the  tonnage  policy  of  the  Hill  roads  is  to 
move  trafiic  to  the  best  possible  advantage  to  the  public? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  have  never  seen  any  great  difference  between  the 
policy  of  the  Great  Northern  and  other  roads  on  which  I  have  been 
employed  with  reference  to  the  movement  of  tonnage. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  true  or  not  that  a  policy  was  invented  or 
initiated  in  the  Northwest  of  having  as  many  ton  miles  as  possible 
per  train  mile  traveled  and  that  you  publish  these  results  and  are 
very  proud  of  them,  and  that  that  policy  is  spreading  from  your  road 
to  other  roads? 

Mr.  Slade.  That  is  true,  but  we  always  are  careful  to  make  good 
time  with  the  freight  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  the  time  made  appear  in  those  statistics? 

Mr.  Slade.  Always. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  consider  your  engines  are  properly  loaded? 

Mr.  Slade.  They  are.  I  consider  that  they  are  as  properly  loaded 
as  they  can  be.  We  have  to  rely  upon  the  judj^ment  of  the  local 
officials  to  load  the  engines  properly  under  various  weather  con- 
ditions. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  ever  had  such  a  thing  as  this:  Running 
an  engine  loaded,  perhaps  heavily  loaded,  with  another  engine  fol- 
lowing behind  with  no  loads? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  have  heard  of  it  being  done.  It  is  not  done  with  the 
knowledge  and  consent  of  the  olBcials.     Sometimes,  of  course,  it  is 


214  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

necessary  in  order  to  equalize  the  passenger  delays,  to  run  a  passenger 
engine  empty  over  a  division,  and  that  engine  might  possibly  pass  a 
freight  train  heavily  loaded  in  the  same  direction,  but  it  was  either 
to  bring  the  passenger  train  in,  and,  naturally,  they  can  not  take  the 
time  to  assist  the  other  train. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  am  not  talking  about  passenger  engines.  I  am 
talking  about  freight  engines.     I  am  talking  about  those  instances. 

Mr.  Slade.  That  case  might  appear,  but  it  is  unusual,  and  they  are 
not  justified  in  doing  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  find  a  tendency  to  do  this  in  order  to  keep 
from  making  a  record  of  running  light  trains  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  that  does  not  occur? 

Mr.  Slade.  No,  sir;  it  does  not  occur. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  that  sort  of  thing  has 
occurred  on  other  roads  that  attempt  to  furnish  these  records  of  a 
great  number  of  ton  mUes  per  train  mUe  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  never  heard  of  its  being  done  on  any  road  with  which 
I  have  been  connected. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  were  a  division  superintendent,  and  you  had 
two  freight  engines  to  move  from  one  division  to  the  other  at  the  same 
time  practically — as  near  together  as  they  could  go  in  safety — and  you 
had  a  reasonably  heavy  load  for  one,  or  a  very  heavy  load,  would  you 
divide  it  or  give  it  all  to  one? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  should  divide  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  advise  them  to  divide  it  under  those 
circumstances  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Those  are  the  present  instructions  to  superintendents, 
and  such  have  been  for  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  trouble  with  accidents  caused  by  men 
who  had  worked  long  hours  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  do  not  know  as  accidents  could  be  attributed  to  the 
hours  men  had  been  on  duty.  We  have  had  as  many  accidents  with 
employees  who  have  been  on  duty  but  a  short  time  as  we  have  hat! 
with  employees  who  have  been  on  duty  a  long  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Taking  employees  who  perhaps  had  just  gone  to  work 
on  one  trip,  but  who  on  the  trip  previous  had  worked  long  hours — I 
am  asking  you  if  you  have  had  more  accidents  from  men  who  might 
be  called  weary? 

Mr.  Slade.  Possibly,  in  a  few  very  isolated  cases. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  many? 

Mr.  Slade.  Not  many;  no.  Some  of  the  most  serious  accidents, 
due  to  infractions  of  rules  and  carelessness,  which  we  have  had,  have 
occurred  when  the  men  have  been  proven  to  have  had  ample  oppor- 
tunity for  proper  rest. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Begg.  Mr.  Slade,  what  is  the  average  freight-car  movement 
per  day  on  your  road  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  miles  per  car  per  day  for  all  classes  of  equipment 
in  the  month  of  October,  the  last  month  of  which  we  have  any  record, 
were  over  30  miles  per  car  per  day. 

Mr.  Bego.  How  does  that  average  compare  with  the  average  made 
by  other  roads? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  215 

Mr.  Slade.  I  only  know  of  two  roads.  I  know  the  figures  for  the 
Erie,  which  I  saw  for  two  years,  and  there  I  think  they  reached  20 
miles  for  one  month,  and  t&at  we  considered  very,  very  good. 

Mr.  Begg.  Will  you  please  explain  what  is  meant  when  you  speak 
of  loading  an  engine  according  to  its  rating,  and  also  explain  how  you 
get  that  rating,  and  then  what  it  amounts  to. 

Mr.  Slade.  Locomotives  are  usually  purchased  and  are  rated  by 
the  builders  to  haul  a  given  tonnage  on  a  given  grade,  under  given 
conditions.  After  we  receive  the  locomotive  we  make  practical  work- 
ing tests  under  the  supervision  of  our  mechanical  and  operating 
officers. 

Mr.  Begg.  What  then? 

Mr.  Slade.  When  they  ascertain  the  result  of  this  practical  test, 
we  give  the  engine  a  tonnage  rating  for  the  different  grades  to  which 
that  engine  is  apt  to  be  assi»;ned,  and  the  ratings  are  printed  on  our 
time  tables — are  placed  in  the  possession  of  all  of  our  yard  masters, 
conductors,  and  other  employees  engaged  in  the  movement  of  trains; 
and  the  rating  shown  on  these  tables  is  given  the  locomotives  except 
when,  on  account  of  peculiar  weather,  the  traffic  conditions  are  such 
that  it  becomes  necessary  to  decrease  the  tonnage. 

Mr.  Begg.  Now,  if  tHere  is  any  temporary  defect  or  something 
that  renders  that  engine  incapable  of  handling,  easily,  its  rated  ton- 
nage, is  not  that  taken  into  account  by  the  local  authorities  in  loading? 

Mr.  Slade.  Oh,  certainly;  but  of  course  it  is  never  our  intention 
to  have  an  engine  leave  the  roundhouse  at  a  division  terminal  to  make 
a  trip  not  in  condition  to  handle  its  tonnage.  We  have  employed  at 
these  terminals  forces  of  skilled  mechanics  to  make  repairs  there, 
and  they  are  provided  with  proper  tools  for  making  them,  and  it  is 
absolutely  against  the  rules  to  permit  an  engine  to  leave  the  round- 
house which  is  not  in  condition  to  handle  the  tonnage  to  the  next 
terminal. 

Mr.  Begg.  The  actual  loading  of  these  engines  is  left  to  the  division 
superintendent  and  train  dispatcher? 

Air.  Slade.  The  actual  load  which  they  will  haul  under  conditions 
obtaining  at  the  time  is  determined  by  the  local  officers. 

Mr.  Begg.  The  engine  is  ordinarily  loaded  in  the  direction  in  which 
the  traffic  prevails  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  Certainly;  yes. 

Mr  Begg.  You  are  not  anxious  to  load  engines  coming  back  where 
the  traffic — in  the  direction  in  which  the  traffic  is  lighter.  You  sim- 
ply divide  up  the  traffic  among  the  engines  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  That  is  it,  exactly. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  do  not  run  engines  over  the  road  light  8imj)ly  to 
increase  the  tonnage? 

Mr.  Slade.  No,  indeed. 

Mr.  Begg.  In  the  case  Mr.  Marble  had  in  mind,  then,  that  don't 
exist? 

Mr.  Slade.  No;  that  is  not  being  done. 

Mr.  Marble.  Just  one  question.  You  spoke  of  the  time  made  by 
equipment  of  all  classes.     Just  what  do  you  include  in  that? 

Mr.  Slade.  I  include  box  cars,  coal  cars,  flat  cars,  foreign  cars  of 
all  classes,  ore  cars — all  the  freight  equipment  moved  over  our  lines. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  statistics  showing  the  movement  of 
box  cars  engaged  in  the  hauling  of  dead  freight? 


216  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Slade.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  not  that  separately? 

Mr  Slade.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  Oriental  trains  are  trains  which  run  almost  on 
passenger  time  and  would  be  included  ? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  cars  move  in  those  trains  and,  of  course,  are 
included  in  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  also  ore  cars,  which  are  comparatively  slow — 
all  of  them? 

Mr.  Slade.  It  shows  all  classes  of  equipment. 

Mr.  Begq.  Oriental  trains  do  not  make  passenger  time,  do  they? 

Mr.  Slade.  No;  twelve  and  a  half  miles  an  hour. 

Mr.  Marble.  We  find  some  trains  in  here  running  25  miles  an  hour. 

Mr.  Slade.  That  is  frequently  necessary  in  order  to  maintain  this 
12  i  mile  an  hour  schedule. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  the  reason  I  spoke  of  passenger  time. 

Mr.  Begq.  What  is  passenger  time? 

Mr.  Slade.  Thirty  and  a  half  miles  an  hour  from  St.  Paul  to 
Superior. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  usual  freight  schedule  from 
Grand  Forks  to  Duluth? 

Mr.  Slade.  The  best  freight  schedule  in  the  opposite  direction — 
we  have  no  fast  freights  eastbound,  because  there  is  no  high-class 
traffic  moved  in  that  direction — as  the  best  freight  moving  in  that 
direction  makes  an  average  of  about  14  miles  an  hour  from  Superior 
to  Grand  Forks. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Going  eastward  now,  dead  freight  trains, 
what  is  the  schedule  time? 

Mr.  Slade.  We  have  no  train  scheduled,  except  our  way  freight 
or  slowest  trains.     No  scheduled  freight  trains. 

Conunissioner  Lane.  What  is  your  slowest  train — what  would 
be  that  time? 

Mr.  Slade.  About  10  miles  an  hour — the  slowest  schedule  train. 

Commissioner  Lane.  They  have  been  known  to  make  less? 

Mr.  Slade.  Oh,  yes,  sir;  mdeed. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  don't  include  in  that  average  the  car  movement 
of  passenger  cars? 

Mr.  Slade.  None  whatever,  of  course. 

Mr.  Begg.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Slade. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

H.  J.  Horn,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  St.  Paul? 
Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  ^'r. 

Mr.  Marble.  Aiid  you  are  general  manager  of  the  Northern  Pacific 
Railway  Company,  are  you? 
Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  miles  of  road  has  your  system? 
Mr.  Horn.  We  have  5,400  miles. 
Mr.  Marble.  Fifty-four  hundred  ? 
Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  su-;  5,400  imder  my  jurisdiction. 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  217 

Mr.  Mabble.  How  many  locomotives  have  yout 

Mr.  Horn.  We  have  something  over  1,000. 

Mr.  Mabble.  How  many  over  1,000? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  would  like  to  give  you  the  exact  figures,  if  you  will 
permit  me. 

Mr.  Marble.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Horn.  Our  exact  figure,  December  3,  shows  1,060  engines. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  miles  of  road — have  you  that  exactly  before 
you? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  have  not  got  the  miles  of  road  exactly. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  the  figures  for  the  number  of  freight  care 
of  all  classes? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes.  The  engines  on  our  annual  report — these  are 
annual  report  figures — ^were  1 ,005  in  1 906. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  was  up  to 

Mr.  HoBN.  June  30. 

Mr.  Mabble.  That  has  increased  since  then  ? 

Mr.  HoBN.  Yes,  sir;  increased  since  then.  We  have  received,  oh, 
about  70  engines  since  then. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  the  freight  equipment. 

Mr.  Horn.  We  had  36,097  cars  in  1906 — June  30. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  increased  that  since  then  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes;  that  has  come  in  after  possibly  1,500  cars  since 
then. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  increase,  then,  since  June  30,  has  it  or  not  been 
greater  than  the  increase  in  previous  years — the  year  previous  to 
June  30? 

Mr.  Horn.  Our  cars  compared  with  the  previous  year — 1905 — I 
will  read  from  our  annual  report,  if  it  pleases  you.  In  1901  we  had  a 
little  over  26,000  cars;  in  1905  we  had  35,135  cars;  in  1906  we  had 
36,097  cars.  Well,  now,  if  you  put  that  on  a  capacity  basis  and  call 
the  number  of  cars — put  that  on  a  capacity  basis— call  the  number 
of  cars  in  1901  100  per  cent  of  our  capacity  of  cars — the  following  is 
the  capacitv  of  our  freight  cars  in  1901 : 

One  hundred  per  cent  in  1901 ;  122  per  cent  in  1902;  130^  per  cent 
in  1903;  132  per  cent  in  1904;  15U  per  cent  in  1905;  163  per  cent  in 
1906.  If  we  Keep  up  the  gait  that  is  ordered — get  the  cars  ordered 
for  1907  we  will  have  a  capacity  in  1907  of  about  250  per  cent  as  com- 
pared with  1901. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  show  the  cars  since  June  1  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  misquoted.  I  thought  250  per  dent;  it  is  about  240 
per  cent;  something  like  that  that  we  will  get. 

Mr.  Marble.  We  are  concerned  more  with  the  number  of  cars  and 
tonnage — the  number  of  cars  has  increased  since  this  report? 

Mr.  HoBN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Mabble.  About  1,500? 

Mr.  HoBN.  I  should  say  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  From  the  report  I  make  it  an  increase  of  962  in  the 
year  previous. 

Mr.  Horn,  Nine  hundred  and  sixty-two  is  correct,  as  given  by  the 
annual  figures. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  the  increase  for  the  year  previous. 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 


218  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  of  your  cars  are  off  your  line? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  have,  I  "think,  abctit  10,000  off  our  line.  If  you 
will  wait  a  minute  I  will  get  the  figures.  (Mr.  Horn  looks  for  papers.) 
We  have  off  our  line  9,000  cars  (referring  to  paper). 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  date? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  have  not  got  the  date  here.  It  was  probably  the 
first  week  of  December.  Somewhere  in  there;  about  the  first  week  in 
December. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  how  many  foreign  cars  have  you  on  your  line? 

Mr.  Horn.  Fourteen  thousand  and  seven  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  date. 

Mr.  Horn.  The  same  date,  this  year — made  for  the  same  date. 
I  have  not  the  car  service.  [Mr.  Marble  hands  paper  to  witness, 
who  takes  it  and  looks  it  over  and  hands  it  back  to  ^Jj.  Marble.] 

Mr.  Marble.  Tliev  are  correct,  are  they  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  May  I  read  them? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

(Mr.  Marble  reads  paper  as  follows) : 

Northern  Pacific  cars  on  forei^  lines  August  28 8,  512 

Foreign  cars  on  Northern  Pacific  line  August  28 14,  007 

September  11,  Northern  Pacific  cars  on  foreign  lines ". 8,  796 

Foreign  cars  on  Northern  Pacific 13, 739 

September  25,  Northern  Pacific  cars  on  foreign  lines 8.  251 

Foreign  cars  on  Northern  Pacific  line 14, 413 

October  9,  Northern  Pacific  cars  on  foreign  lines 8, 430 

Foreign  cars  on  Northern  Pacific  line 14, 188 

And  so  it  reads  on  down  to  the  last  figure. 

October  30,  Northern  Pacific  cars  on  foreign  lines 9, 159 

Foreign  cars  on  Northern  Pacific  line 14, 929 

November  6,  Northern  Pacific  cars  on  foreign  lines 9.  285 

Foreign  cars  on  Northern  Pacific  line 14,  942 

November  13,  Northern  Pacific  cars  on  foreign  lines 9, 576 

Foreign  cars  on  Northern  Pacific  line 15, 602 

November  20,  Northern  Pacific  cars  on  foreign  lines 9,  838 

Foreign  cars  on  Northern  Pacific  lines 15, 957 

I  wiQ  ask  that  that  be  marked  as  an  exhibit. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1 — 
Horn.") 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  remedy  to  suggest,  Mr.  Horn,  to  pre- 
vent car  diversion? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  are  not  complaining  just  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  your  engines  in  good  repair,  do  you  consider? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  consider  them  in  first-rate  repair;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  what  percentage  are  in  the  repair 
shops? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir.  I  would  like  to  explain  the  way  we  keep 
track  of  our  engines.  However,  I  keep  no  track  of  the  number  of 
engines,  but  I  do  keep  track  of  the  number  of  driver  weight — tons 
of  driver  weight  in  service;  and  our  engines  in  back  shop  or  round- 
houses being  held  for  ten  to  twelve  hours  repairs — that  counts  as  an 
ermine  out  of  service. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  keep  them  by  number  of  engines  at  all? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  have  not,  while  I  do  keep  it  by  pulling  capacity. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  so  many  tons  are  under  repairs? 

Mr.  Horn.  So  many  driver  weight — that  is,  ability  to  pull  cars. 
I  count  what  is  in  the  back  shop,  or  in  the  roundhouse,  being  held 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  219 

for  repairs,  which  runs  from  16  to  18i  or  19  per  cent  during  the  past 
two  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  call  that  extraordinary? 

Mr.  Horn.  No,  sir.  Those  we  think  have  been  kept  very  close  for 
the  past  two  years — since  Aujjust,  1904. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  extraorcGnary,  as  to  that  number — either  large 
or  small? 

Mr.  Horn.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  to  your  en<:nnes  not  under  repair — do  you  con- 
sider they  are  up  to  the  standard  of  efficiency  that  you  re(juire  for 
your  work? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  are  making  with  the  engines  in  our  service  more 
miles  per  engine  than  most  other  roads  in  the  country,  from  the 
figures  I  have  seen.  Of  course,  I  have  seen  them  from  perhaps  a 
dozen  roads,  and  on  the  tons  that  the  engine  pulls  during  the  month 
we  are  doing  considerably  better  than  most  of  the  roads. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  doing  better  in  miles  and  tonnage  hauled? 

Mr.  Horn.  In  tonnage;  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  your  foreign  cars,  as  to  their  mileage? 

Mr.  Horn.  Oar  freight-car  mileage  lines  up  very  well,  I  think.  I 
will  give  you,  if  it  please  you,  the  figures  we  have  made  of  foreign 
cars  on  the  line  and  the  figures  of  some  other  roads  which  they  have 
made  of  foreign  cars.  These  are  cars  that  each  road  is  supposed  to 
try  and  get  rid  of,  and  these  figures  are  for  the  year  1904. 

The  Milwaukee  made  19.3  miles  per  day. 

The  Erie,  20.5  miles  per  day. 

The  Great  Northern,  43.8  miles  per  day. 

The  Northern  Pacific,  46.8  miles  per  day. 

Now,  those  are  foreign  freight  cars  for  tne  year  1904. 

For  the  year  1905 

Mr.  Marble  (interrupting).  Pardon  me,  a  moment.  How  were 
those  freight  cars  paid  for  to  the  owning  roads  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  same  as  they  were  up  to  December  1st  of  this  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Per  diem? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir.  For  the  year  ending  December  31,  1905,  the 
average  of  all  cars,  whioh  includes  system's  and  foroign's — that  is,  all 
freight  cars  I  am  talking  about  now — on  the  Burlington,  were  28.1 
miles  per  day. 

The  Erie,  20.8  miles  per  day. 

The  Northern  Pacific,  30.1  miles  per  day. 

Those  are  the  only  figures  that  we  have  been  able  to  get  from  other 
roads  to  compare  our  work  with  on  the  miles  per  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  you  are  having  more  or  less  trouble 
than  other  roads  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Well,  I  thought  we  were  having  more  trouble  than 
other  roads  until  I  spent  a  week  in  Chicago  in  a  general  managers' 
meeting,  and  then  I  tnought  we  were  getting  along  pretty  well,  when  I 
heard  the  other  fellows  tell  their  trou  we.  Why,  then  we  thought  we 
were  not  so  badly  off  after  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  were  fairly  contented? 

Mr.  Horn.  Not  contented;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  class  of  traffic  has  increased  this  year?  You 
would  say,  as  Mr.  Slade,  that  the  increase  of  traffic  is  one  of  the  rea- 


220  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

sons  for  this  freight  car  failure — the  failure  of  transportation  facili- 
ties? 

Mr.  Horn.  Whj^,  we  have  had  heavy  increases  in  all  conunodities, 
and  if  you  are  talcing  the  net  ton  miles  as  the  measure — that  is,  the 
amount  of  freight  that  is  hauled — and  if  you  will  go  back  to  1901  as 
100  per  cent,  our  business  in  1901  was  100  per  cent. 

Percent. 

1902 134 

1903 15(5 

19(M 157 

1905 185 

1906 219 

You  will  see  tliat  it  has  a  little  more  than  doubled  since  1901,  and 
at  t'  e  rate  it  is  going  now  up  to,  I  think  it  is,  November  1 ,  it  is  about 
a  15  per  cent  increase  in  the  business  handled  as  compared  with  1906. 

I  am  talking  about  fiscal  years  all  the  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Between  last  year  and  this? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Increased  about  15  per  cent  over  last  year? 

Mr.  Horn.  Over  last  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  15  per  cent  over  a  small  year  like  1901  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  As  compared  with  a  small  year,  about  25  per  cent. 
.    Mr.  Bunn.  1901  was  a  small  year? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  did  not  think  so  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Bigger  than  any  previous  year? 

Mr.  Horn.  As  1  remember  the  record  year  of  ton  mileage  up  to 
that  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  what  year  has  it  been  greater? 

Mr.  Horn.  1903  and  1904  were  the  same.  There  was  only  5  per 
cent  or  6  per  cent  of  1  per  cent  difference  in  1903. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  as  between  those  years  and  last,  what  is  tie 
tonnage  that  has  increased? 

Mr.  Horn.  Well,  the  farm  products,  30  per  cent  more.  There 
was  about  the  same  movement  of  grain  this  year  as  last.  The  last 
time  I  took  that  I  showed  that  there  was  a  decrease  of  4  or  5  per  cent, 
something  between  those  two.  On  merchandise  we  have  run  heavier. 
The  coal  from  the  head  of  the  Lakes,  during  November,  we  had  an 
increase  of  50  per  cent  in  the  coal  handled,  based  on  cars.  I  have 
not  the  tons.  Compared  with  the  year  before,  in  October  the  increase 
was  possibly  35  per  cent,  but  there  has  been  a  general  increase  right 
through. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  that  mean  that  you  discriminate  against  the 
grain,  and  that  is  the  reason  it  decreased  while  other  classes  mcreased  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  No;  the  reason  we  did  not  handle  more  grain  was  that 
we  could  not  without  taking  empties  away  from  the  head  of  the  Lakes, 
where  we  had  loads  going.  That  seemed  quite  as  important  as  any- 
thing we  had  to  move.  We  went  over  that  question  among  ourselves 
a  great  many  times  as  to  what  to  do  to  improve  the  movement  of 
grain.  Not  only  this  year,  but  last  year  we  had  a  great  many  con- 
ferences, and  studied  it — picked  out  commodity  by  commodity, 
sometimes  a  little  earlier  in  the  season,  and  sometimes  a  Uttle  later, 
and  tried  to  see  where  we  could  let  up  on  something,  leave  the  freight 
behind,  and  take  empties  into  the  grain  field,  so  as  to  help  the  grain 
movement  out,  and  every  time  we  did  it  we  were  forced  to  give  it  up. 

Mr.  Marble.  Forced  to  let  the  grain  wait) 


GAB  SHORTAGE.  221 

Mr.  Horn.  Forced  tx)  let  the  grain  wait. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  fact  that  the  grain  was  in  noncompetitive  ter- 
ritory and  could  not  move  except  when  you  got  ready  to  move  it  was 
not  a  factor  in  your  considerations? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  do  not  think  it  had  a  thing  to  do  with  it.  In  fact,  in  one 
or  two  instances  when  there  was  freight  to  move  in  competitive  terri- 
tory, we  purposely  did  not  try  to  put  cars.  On  the  Seattle  Division, 
where  we  have  been,  as  you  must  know,  in  bad  shape  to  move  lumber, 
for  a  long  time  we  purposely  diverted  cars  into  strictly  noncompetitive 
territory,  in  the  hopes  that  some  of  the  other  roads  would  get  some  of 
that  business.  There  is  an  instance  where  we  purposely  avoided  the 
competitive  territory. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  other  roads  were  your  competitors? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  Great  Northern  and  the  Canadian  Pacific  railroads. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Union  Pacific? 

M. .  Horn.  In  a  way,  yes,  sir.  If  they  had  furnished  the  cars  they 
ought  to  have  got  the  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  heard  the  statement,  possibly,  that  com- 
petitive points  in  the  wheat  countrj  were  favored,  as  against  non- 
competitive points,  in  the  distribution  of  empty  cars.  Do  you  see 
that  to  be  so  from  your  standpoint? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  have  only  been  in  the  east  during  the  last  three  sea- 
sons, but  I  do  not  think  it  is  so.  Some  of  the  junction  points  are 
naturally  good  unloading  points,  and  that  furnishes  cars,  regardless  of 
whether  it  is  competitive  or  noncompetitive  territory.  Understand 
me,  what  I  mean  by  unloading 

Mr.  Marble.  You  mean  freight  comes  into  the  junction  town,  and 
that  you  can  take  these  cars  and  allow  them  to  be  loaded  to  be 
shipped  out  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  what  I  mean  by  unloading  points. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  is  there  any  other  explanation  at  all  of  the  fact 
that  the  elevators  in  the  competitive  town  have  been  able  to  remain 
open  to  a  greater  degree  than  the  elevators  in  the  noncompetitive 
towns? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  may  be  so,  but  in  thousands  of  cases  where — I 
have  not  been  over  the  line  this  fall,  but  last  year  we  found  some  com- 
petitive towns  that  had  no  cars  at  all,  and  in  adjoining  points,  that 
were  noncompetitive,  they  had  cars.  That  I  noticed  fast  fall.  This 
year  I  have  not  been  out  over  the  line. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  consider  that  your  road  is  operating  too 
economically? 

Mr.  Horn.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  not  spend  more  money  if  you  had  the 
say  so? 

Mr.  Horn.  What  do  you  mean  by  spending  more  money? 

Mr.  Marble.  Increased  proportion  of  the  operating  expenses  to 
gross  income  at  any  point. 

Mr.  Horn.  Whenever  we  see  that  we  can  do  any  good  by  simply 
increasing  the  operating  expenses  and  improving  the  service,  we  do  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Even  if  you  do  not  increase  your  profits,  but  you  do 
it  to  increase  the  service  to  the  public — would  you  consider  that  a 
warrant  for  increasing  operating  expenses? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  certainly  woiild. 


222  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  prepared  to  suggest  any  point  at  which 
increases  should  be  made  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  am  bus^  making  out  a  Hst  which  we  make  out  every 
year,  increasing  operatmg  expenses,  and  increasing  facihties  in  serv- 
ice, and  we  have  a  very  large  amount  of  work  under  way  now  to 
improve  facilities  in  service. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  conditions  the  next  crop  year  are  going 
to  be  better  than  conditions  this  crop  year  have  been,  the  crop  being 
the  same  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  depends  upon  what  success  we  have  with  our 
improvements.  We  had  expected  to  have  our  Rices  Point  yard  at 
Duluth  fixed  for  the  crop  this  year.  That  would  have  given  us 
about  Hi  miles  additional  trackage,  and  made  the  yard  much  more 
effective.  We  missed  it,  but  of  course  expect  to  have  it  ready  for 
next  year.  At  Staples  in  the  last  two  years  (that  is  our  next  big 
yard)  we  have,  I  would  say,  got  double  capacity  in  Staples  to  what 
we  had  two  years  ago — not  in  tracks,  but  in  efficiency.  In  actual 
tracks  we  have  got  eight  more  yards,  and  at  Fargo  we  are  moving  out 
of  town  and  putting  up  a  big  yard  at  Dilworth,  and  if  we  have  good 
luck  completing  that  we  will  be  in  very  good  shape  to  handle  the  crop 
next  year.  If  we  fall  down  on  labor,  things  will  not  be  any  better 
than  they  are. 

Mr.  Marble.  From  your  experience,  and  leaving  out  elements  of 
luck,  are  you  prepared  to  make  a  statement  as  to  what  the  situation 
in  this  country  is  going  to  be  from  the  first  day  of  July  next  year  to  the 
first  day  of  the  following  July,  in  the  manner  of  moving  freignt  through 
this  Northwest  country? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  expect  it  to  be  a  great  deal  better  than  it  has  been  for 
several  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  confident  of  that? 

Mr.  Horn.  Well,  I  would  give  long  odds  on  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  wheat  crop  this  year  seems  to  be  about  the  same 
as  last.  If  it  is  the  same  next  year  as  this,  you  are  confident  it  will  be 
moved  better  than  this  year's  has  been? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Horn,  the  district  in  which  this  wheat  is  raised  has 
been  gradually  moving  westward,  has  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  So  that  the  haul  on  wheat  has  increased  something  over 
previous  years  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir;  we  are  getting  wheat  from  north  of  Jamestown 
in  larger  quantities,  and  from  west  or  Mandan. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  your  connections,  the  Soo  Line  and  Milwaukee 
Compaiw,  give  you  an  unexpected  amount  to  haul  to  Duluth  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  My  recollection  of  the  figures  are  something  like  5,000 
more  cars  this  year  than  last. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  has  been  the  effect  of  traffic  by  reason  of  our  hav- 
ing loads  to  carry  back  in  these  cars  when  they  were  empty  of  wheat  ? 

Mr.  Horn.'  It  made  our  terminal  at  Duluth — it  congested  it  a  great 
deal  more  than  it  had  been  the  year  before.  In  1905  we  had  trouble 
taking  care  of  the  crop  the  way  it  moved,  and  made  this  large  expen- 
diture, increasing  the  track  and  equipment  at  Rice's  Point  Yard  about 
forty  per  cent.     Then,  we  have  always  been  able  to  haul  empties  out. 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  223 

When  we  have  an  empty  to  move,  as  soon  as  made  empty  you  can  get 
it  out  and  put  it  on  any  other  train ;  but  these  cars  had  to  be  placed 
before  loading,  because  there  was  so  much  stuff  going  west  that  we 
could  not  get  rid  of  it.  We  could  not  get  rid  or  the  haul,  I  mean; 
and  that  involved  in  a  great  many  cases 

Mr.  BuNN.  Tliere  was  also  the  necessity  of  getting  coal  into  North 
Dakota,  of  course,  all  the  time,  was  there  not? 

Mr.  Horn.  There  was,  and  that  involved  several  handlings,  and 
made  very  slow  movement,  and  made  it  hard  on  the  yard  force  to  get 
the  cars  out. 

Mr.  BuNN.  It  is  true,  is  it  not,  Mr.  Horn,  that  a  car  of  wheat  at 
Duluth,  and  loaded  back  with  coal  or  merchandise,  that  there  are 
several  handlings  in  the  movement? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  The  difference  does  not  simply  amount  to  one  extra 
handling? 

Mr.  Horn.  Now,  I  have  gone,  over  that  with  the  fellows  several 
times,  and  three  or  four  handlings  are  necessary,  they  tell  me. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Tell  the  commission  why  that  is. 

Mr.  Horn.  Well,  it  may  be  unloaded  on  one  pci-son's  road,  go  to 
the  terminal  and  get  onto  ours,  and  repeat  the  operation  coming  back. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Have  you  sent  back  any  empties  from  Duluth  west 
since  the  1st  of  October? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  looked  that  up  the  other  day,  and  my  recollection  is 
that  we  sent  but  39  empties  west  from  the  l!iake  Superior  to  the  Min- 
nesota division  during  November. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  an  entirely  different  proposition  from  what  has 
been  proven  in  previous  years  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  is  the  first  time,  so  Mr.  Blanchard  tells  me,  in  twenty 
years.  He  has  been  connected  with  the  road  either  as  dispatcher  or 
superintendent  for  twenty  years,  and  he  says  this  is  the  first  year 
that  he  ever  hauled  empties  west  to  the  Minnesota  division  from  the 
Lake  Superior  division. 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  The  first  year  that  he  ever  hauled  empties 
west? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  mean  unable  to  haul  empties  west. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Failed  to  haul  them? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  provision  did  you  make  for  moving  the  North 
Dakota  and  Minnesota  wheat  bringing  empty  cars  there  before  the 
crop  commenced  to  move? 

Mr.  Horn.  During  August  we  accumulated  on  the  Dakota  division 
something  like  1,800  cars. 

Mr.  BuNN.  The  Dakota  division  is  the  wheat  field  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  Minnesota  and  St.  Paul  divisions  have  enough 
freight  unloading  at  those  wheat  points  to  take  care  of  the  wheat  crop. 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  many  cars  dia  you  say  you  accumulated  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  had  during  August  about  1,800  cars  over  what  we 
had.  I  would  say  that  gave  us  about  3,500  or  4,000  cars  to  start 
loading  wheat  with. 

Mr.  Bunn.  So  that  there  would  be  empty  cars  where  wheat  is 
marketed  in  North  Dakota? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Did  any  of  those  cars  come  from  west  of  North  Dakota? 


224  CAB   SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  HoRX.  Yes,  some  of  them  came  under  load  from  the  West — 
were  made  empty  at  those  points  and  simply  left  there  waiting  for 
the 

Mr.  BuNN.  Did  you  not  haul  empties  from  Montana  into  the  wheat 
country? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  do  not  think  we  hauled  them  there  during  August, 
Mr.  Bunn.  There  were  parts  of  September  that  we  hauled  empties 
both  ways  into  the  grain  field,  and  I  can  not  answer  just  what  wo  did. 

Mr.  Bunn.  With  3,500  cars  ready  for  wheat,  when  it  came  in,  what 
happened  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  They  got  ready  very  quickly  and  we  were  unable  to 
move  them  without  stopping  other  business. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Can  you  tell  about  how  many  cars  a  day  you  can  move 
out  of  North  Dakota  loaded  with  wheat  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  depends  upon  what  we  are  having  to  move  in  other 
lines,  of  course. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Take  ordinary  conditions? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  can  move  over  our  main  line,  Dakota  division,  350 
or  400  loads  in  either  direction.  From  the  Minnesota  division,  we 
have  moved  some  days  as  high  as  700.     The  average  is  about  400. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Then  you,  apparently,  had  about  all  the  cars  you 
could  move  in  ten  days  loaded? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir;  at  one  time. 

Mr.  Bunn.  When  did  wheat  commence  coming  into  the  market? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  would  say  about  the  15th  of  September,  that  these 
cars  were  pretty  well  loaded  up. 

Mr.  Bunn.  "What  has  been  the  result  of  that 

Mr.  Horn.  In  what  way? 

Mr.  Bunn.  Making  the  car  movement  slow* 

Mr.  Horn.  Well,  it  made  the  average  car  movement  very  slow, 
because  so  many  of  the  cars  stood.  Some  of  the  time  we  had  to  stop 
taking  stuff  into  Duluth.  There  was  one  time  we  suspended  east 
bound  toward  Duluth  which  delayed  the  movement  for  forty-eight 
hours,  something  that  I  can  not  recall  as  having  ever  been  forced 
upon  us  before. 

Mr.  Bunn.  What  was  the  reason  of  that? 

Mr.  Horn.  Our  terminal — could  not  get  the  stuff  into  our  terminal. 

Mr.  Bunn.  And  as  a  result  of  that  there  was  not  any  use  of  moving 
stuff  into  there  which  could  not  be  unloaded  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  made  it  that  much  harder  to  handle  the  stuff  that 
was  already  there. 

Mr.  Bunn.  During  October,  was  the  condition — or  during  a  part 
of  October — was  the  condition  one  of  congestion  and  comparative 
blockade  from  Duluth  yard  west  to  the  Missouri  River? 

Mr.  Horn.  Would  you  repeat  that? 

Mr.  Bunn.  During  the  month  of  October,  or  any  part  of  it,  was  the 
condition  one  of  congestion,  or  partial  blockade  of  the  road,  from 
Lake  Superior  to  the  Missouri  River  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes;  our  terminals — district  terminals — generally  had 
150  to  200  loads  awaiting  transit  each  day,  and  the  principal  reason 
for  that  was  that  we  could  not  get  rid  of  it  at  the  other  end.  The 
blockade  at  the  head  of  the  lakes  would  be  felt  as  far  as  Mandan  very 
quickly. 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  225 

Mr.  BuNN.  And  this  congestion,  rather  than  being  one  of  car  short- 
age, if  I  gather  what  you  mean,  is  one  of  inadequate  terminals  and 
track  facilities? 

Mr.  Horn.  Certainly. 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  do  you  explain,  Mr.  Horn,  cars  standing  at  the 
station  and  being  delayed  in  moving  with  grain,  before  they  movel 

Mr.  Horn.  At  an  intermediate  station? 

Mr.  BuNN.  At  an  intermediate  station.  ^ 

Mr.  Horn.  The  train  starts  from  its  terminal  and  has  got  its  ton- 
nage before  it  gets  to  some  of  these  points,  and  that  will  hap{>en 
sometimes  day  after  day. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Horn,  do  you  load  your  engines  too  heavily? 

Mr.  Horn.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Tell  the  Commission  how  and  on  what  principle  they 
are  loaded. 

Mr.  Horn.  If  you  take  a  grade,  for  instance,  like  a  mountain  grade, 
where  there  is  absolutely  nothing  to  overcome  but  just  siniply  the 
lift  of  the  trains  up  these  grades,  we  put  our  engineer,  road  fireman, 
our  mechanic,  ana  our  superintendent  onto  the  first  new  engine  of 
any  particular  type  that  comes  on.  We  make  tests  at  slow  speeds 
and  at  higher  speeds,  and  between  them  they  decide  what  they  can 
pull  up  the  mountain.  We  give  those  engines  an  absolute  tonnage 
rating,  based  on  what  they  can  go  along  with  and  make  fair  time. 

Mr.  Bunn.  What  do  you  call  fair  time? 

Mr.  Horn.  On  the  mountain  question? 

Mr.  Bunn.  No;  generally  on  the  road. 

Mr.  Horn.  Well,  ascending  a  mountain,  I  call  8  miles  first-class 
time. 

Mr.  Bunn.  What  is  fair  average  time  over  the  roads? 

Mr.  Horn.  Ten  miles  an  hour  is  what  our  schedule  is  built  up  on. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Is  this  rating  you  give  an  engine  all  it  will  haul,  or  all  it 
will  haul  and  make  fair  speed? 

Mr.  Horn.  All  it  will  haul  and  make  fair  speed. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Now,  what  i>ercentage  of  that  rating  are  your  engines 
loaded  on  the  average? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  average?  We  are  running  about  75  per  cent  the 
last  few  months  of  our  engine  rating. 

Mr.  Bunn.  What  was  the  effect,  Mr.  Horn,  of  decreasing  the  size 
of  your  trains  and  increasing  the  number? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  would  add  very' much  to  our  trouble  on  our  main 
line  which  limits  our  business  now. 

Mr.  Bunn.  What  is  the  principal  limit  of  business  on  your  main 
line? 

Mr.  Horn.  On  the  main  line  it  is  the  meeting  and  passing  of  trains. 
We  have  checked  that  up  lately — the  lavSt  eighteen  months — a  number 
of  times  where  things  got  hard,  and  tried  to  find  out  the  remedv  for 
some  of  our  districts  where  trains  are  heavy — I  mean  thick.  Why, 
where  business  is  heavy  half  the  time  of  the  train  between  terminals 
is  in  meeting  and  passing  trains. 

Mr.  Bunn.  What  is  the  condition  of  your  main  line  at  Jamestown 
to  Staples  during  this  fall;  was  it  practically  being  taxed  to  its 
capacitv  ? 

Mr.  fioRN.  The  business  handled  over  the  main  line 

8.  Doc.  333.  59-2 15 


226  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Well,  take  between  Fargo  and  Staples. 

Mr.  Horn.  Between  Far^o  and  Staples  we  handled,  during  Octo- 
ber, 450,000  net  tons  per  mde  of  track  for  the  month.  That  is  what 
we  call  our  density;  that  is,  the  number  of  tons  that  passed  over  1 
mile  of  track  during  the  month,  and  that  road  at  the  beginning  of  the 
season,  had  17  miles  of  double  track  from  Wadena  into  Staples.  We 
handled,  in  October,  450,000  net  tons  per  mile  of  track.  I  looked 
over  some  of  the  other  roads.  The  figures  of  the  Burlington  out  of 
Chicago  from  Clyde  to  Galesburg,  which  is  a  double  track,  and  in  some 
parts  has  more  than  two  tracks,  no  day  during  the  past  year  have 
they  gone  very  much  over  400,000,  405,000,  or  410,000  net  tons  per 
mile  of  track. 

Mr.  BuNN.  And  you  carried  how  many  thousand  net  tons? 

Mr.  Horn.  Four  hundred  and  fifty  thousand. 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  do  you  compare  with  the  Erie  and  New  York 
Central? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  figures  have  been  given  me  by  Mr.  Johnson,  our 
assistant  comptroller,  and  have  been  taken  from  our  annual  report. 
The  Erie  Railroad  had  a  mileage  of  2,151  miles;  the  net  ton  mileage 
or  density  for  the  year  (the  other  figures  I  was  giving  you  was  for  the 
months)  were  2,943,863  tons.  The  New  York  Central  had  a  mileage 
of  3,774  miles  or  a  density  of  a  little  over  2,500,000  for  the  year. 
Now,  if  you  were  to  compare  that  Minneapolis  Division  during 
October,  with  the  average  miles  for  the  year  of  the  Erie  road,  they 
had  2yV  net  ton  miles  for  the  year  as  compared  with  5iV  net  ton 
miles,  averaging  October  for  the  entire  year. 

Commissioner  Lane  :  That  would  not  be  a  fair  average  ? 

Mr.  Horn:  It  would  not  be  a  fair  average.  I  compared  the  main 
line  with  what  Mr.  Bunn  suggested. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Make  that  so  I  can  get  the  comparison. 

Mr.  Horn.  The  Erie  Railroad — for  the  year — density  would  be  2.6, 
Minneapolis  division  would  be  5.4.  The  New  York  Central  would  be 
2.6,  and  the  Minneapohs  division  would  be  5.4.     Those  are  relative. 

Mr.  Bunn.  You  have  got  one  track  and  these  roads  have  two  to 
four  tracks? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunn.  In  other  words,  if  you  take  October,  you  are  doing 
twice  as  much  a  business  per  mile  as  the  Erie  or  as  the  New  York 
Central? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir;  very  nearly.     Two  and  six-tenths  is  2.5  more. 

Mr.  Bunn.  That  means  necessarily  that  you  have  got  plenty  of 
money  with  which  to  make  improvements? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  ought  to  have,  even  after  cutting  rates. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Do  you  know  any  single  track  that  has  more  dense 
traffic? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  have  not  the  figures.  I  have  talked  with  some  man- 
agers of  roads  running  out  of  Chicago,  and  have  only  got  the  density 
that  they  have  given  me,  but  I  have  yet  to  find  a  road  running  out  of 
Chicago  that  has  handled  more  density  than  this  Staples  to  Fargo. 
That  IS  the  throat  of  our  system;  all  our  business  pours  right  in  over 
that  throat. 

Mr.  Bunn.  You  are  comparing,  when  you  say  roads  out  of  Chicago, 
you  are  comparing  with  double-track  roads  are  you  not  ? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  227 

Mr.  HoBN.  I  think  they  are  all  double-track  roads. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Horn,  I  should  like  to  have  you  show  the  Commis- 
sioners what  the  Northern  Pacific  is  doing  to  prepare  itself  to  take 
care  of  tills  business — what  it  has  been  doing  for  the  past  year.  Now 
you  have  got  a  diagram  here  somewhere  that  shows  that  better  than 
anything  else. 

(Mr.  Horn  at  this  point  laid  before  the  Commissioners  a  certain 
profile  map,  which  is  hereby  received  in  evidence,  and  marked 
^'Exhibit  No.  2"  to  Mr.  Hom'^s  testimony.) 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  shows  that  better  than  anything  else. 

Mr.  HoBN.  Startintj  here  [indicating]  is  Staples,  Fargo,  Mandan, 
Glendive,  Billing,  Livingston,  the  root  of  the  mountain,  Helena, 
which  is  at  the  foot  of  the  Missoula  Mountain,  Spokane,  Pasco,  the 
Willamette  River;  and  this  is  over  the  Cascade  Mountain,  into  the 
sound,  or  Seattle. 

Now,  starting  with  the  west  end,  where  the  trouble  has  been  this 
year,  we  have  here — this  line  here  is  red,  showing  where  we  are  build- 
ing additional  track. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  mean  double  track? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir;  I  mean  double  track. 

These  lines  here  [indicating]  show  where  we  are  cutting  down 
grades. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  red  lines  on  the  line  of  track? 

Mr.  HoBN.  The  red  line  down  here  [indicating]  on  the  base  line, 
shows  where  we  are  double  tracking  the  road.  The  red  line  of  the 
profile  shows  where  we  are  cutting  down  grades.  Between  Staples 
and  Wadena,  we  put  in  a  piece  of  double  track  17  miles  in  1904. 
We  have  cut  those  grades,  which  is  a  1  per  cent  helper  in  here  [indi- 
cating], and  makes  it  very  hard  to  handle  our  trains  during  the  rush 
season,  to  get  our  helpers  around.  We  are  cutting  that  down  to  a 
three-tenths  grade,  so  that  we  will  have  no  helpers.  We  will  have 
a  double  tracl:.  This  is  the  heaviest  work  I  have  ever  seen;  one  fill 
has  4,000,000  vards  in  it. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  would  be  the  grade  of  your  new  double  track? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  grade  of  our  new  double  track  will  be  three-tenths 
in  either  direction,  and  with  the  changes  that  we  are  making  here 
[indicating]  we  will  have  from  Mandan  to  the  head  of  the  Lakes,  or 
from  Mandan  to  the  Twin  Cities,  a  three-tenths  grade  for  hauling 
the  stuff  East. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  effect  is  that  going  to  have  in  enabling  you  to 
handle  your  bu.siness? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  can  handle,  when  thit  is  d<me  very  easily  over  that 
track,  with  the  same  power  that  is  now  avssiirne^  that  division — 
easily  double  the  business  that  we  are  now  handling.  This  improve- 
ment (before  I  get  away  from  it) — this  iniprovement  is  no  good  here, 
unless  we  take  care  of  the  terminals  at  Diiluth.  We  might  just  as 
well  save  that  money,  if  we  are  not  going  to  do  more  business  at 
the  head  of  the  Lakes,  or  the  Twin  Cities. 

Mr.  Marble.  These  improvements  will  affect  Minneapolis  business, 
also,  then? 

Mr.  Horn.  Oh,  yes. 

Then  here  [indicating]  our  Fai^o  yard  has  absolutely  outgrown 
itself,  and  we  are  putting  in  a  very  fine  yard  with  a  modem  round- 
house there,  which  is  something  new.     1  have  not  seen  it  anywhere 


228  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

else  before.  In  the  winter  it  is  very  hard  to  get  our  power  around  in 
these  Dakota  winters.  Now,  we  are  putting  in  what  we  call  an  inside 
cinder  pit.  We  are  going  to  take  our  engines  right  in  and  dump  the 
fires  right  in  the  roundhouse.  We  think  we  can  move  our  power 
better.  It  is  an  experiment,  and  it  is  an  expensive  one,  and  that  ter- 
minal is  going  to  be  a  very  good  one. 

This  yellow  line  is  stuff  that  is  not  authorized  but  is  contemplated. 
Surveys  have  been  made  and  estimates  have  been  made,  but  we  are 
not — we  have  not  started  on  the  work.     Nothing  is  authorized. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  all  west  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  All  west. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Now,  to  proceed  as  to  work  that  is  beintj  done. 

M.  Horn.  On  the  Bozeman  Mountain  we  are  double  tracking  the 
east  side  of  the  Bozeman  Mountain  and  revising  the  grade  from  a  2.2  to 
1.8.  Now,  there  is  a  piece  of  work  that  we  are  actually  throwing 
away,  12^  miles  of  our  own  line,  and  building  a  new  line  to  make  it  a 
little  better.  You  asked  the  question  the  other  day  to  some  of  the 
men,  if  thev  had  full  authority  would  they  do  better  than  was  being 
done — would  they  spend  money  better.  This  territory  in  here  [indi- 
cating] is  my  old  division,  and  I  feel  I  know  a  good  deal  about  it.  If 
that  nad  been  left  to  me  two  or  three  years  ago,  I  would  certainly 
have  double-tracked  the  existing  line,  and  saved  the  money.  I 
would  have  felt  that  that  was  pretty  good  double- tracked  2.2  grade  for 
west-bound  business ;  there  was  no  occasion  for  spending  the  money. 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  much  money,  spending  the  amount  you  thought 
was  necessary  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Six  hundred  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Now  proceed  as  to  the  next  work. 

Mr.  Horn.  Here  [indicating]  is  Missoula  and  here  is  Garrison. 
This  work — all  this  work  is  already  actualh'  under  contract.  It  is 
shown  in  red.  That  is  revising  the  six-tenths  to  a  four-tenths  grade 
and  double  tracking.  There  is  one  of  the  hardest  places  we  have, 
because  the  business  is  east.  Our  excess  east  over  west,  taking  the 
main  line  as  a  whole,  is  getting  farther  apart  all  the  time.  There  is 
more  extreme  difference  in  the  business.  Now,  this  [indicating] 
piece  of  work  is  shown  in  vellow.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  this  instead  of 
going  over  this  mountain  here  [indicating]  we  leave  the  main  line  at  a 
place  near  Paradise,  and  go  up  the  Missoula  River  and  strike  what 
we  call  De  Smet,  building  two  miles  of  main  line,  so  that  instead  of 
hauling  freight  over  the  mountain  we  will  take  it  around  and  bring 
it  through  there  [indicating]. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  gives  you  a  double  track? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  gives  us  a  double  track,  over  a  bad  mountain, 
and  we  get  a  double  track  here  [indicating]. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Does  that  increase  the  haul  by  twenty- 
three  miles  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  About  thirty.  This  will  not  save  operating  expense, 
but  it  will  give  it  increased  capacity  during  these  congested  times. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Now,  proceed  west,  Mr.  Horn. 

Mr.  Horn.  This  is  the  first  district  of  Idaho  Division,  from  Spokane 
to  Trout  Creek.  Most  of  this  work  has  been  completed.  This  work 
out  of  Spokane  has  been  completed.  There  [indicating]  it  has  been 
completed  and  ready  for  use. 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  229 

Commissioner  Lane.  Are  these  improvements  made  out  of  your 
surplus  or  out  of  new  capital. 

Mr.  BuNN.  We  have  voted  new  capital  to  take  care  of  it. 

Mr.  Horn.  Now,  we  bring  our  lumber  out  over  the  mountain. 
Most  of  our  lumber  comes  from  Grays  Harbor  and  South  Bend 
Branches,  goes  into  Taconia,  and  comes  out  over  the  mountain. 

Cominissioner  Lane.  What  is  that  long  red  line  there  [indicating] 
at  the  base  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  This  line  here  [indicating]  is  the  new  line — the  same  as 
over  there  [indicating:]. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Does  it  mean  a  double  track? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  is  an  alternate  line.  This  is  an  alternate  line  around 
by  the  Columbia  River  from  Vancouver  to  Pasco. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  are  going  to  run  up  on  the  north  side  of 
the  river? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  are  going  to  run  up  on  the  north  side  of  the  river,  so 
instead  of  pulling  the  luniber  into  Tacoma — I  mean  the  South  Bend 
and  Grays  Harbor  and  that  vicinity — instead  of  pulling  that  all  over 
the  mountain  and  into  Tacoma,  which  is  a  hard  draw,  we  will  bring  it 
out  over  that  grade  here  [indicating]. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  does  not  stop  at  Pasco? 

Mr.  Horn.  At  Pasco  we  are  building  a  new  line — alternate  line, 
instead  of  having  this  1  per  cent — which  has  helpers — and  vou  see  is 
rather  a  bad  grade  line,  we  will  have  this  four-tenths,  and  drop  four- 
tenths  into  Spokane. 

Now,  this  new  line  here  [indicating]  and  that  is  a  sort  of  a  mixture — 
some  of  it  is  new — about  45  miles  new  and  30  miles  old. 

Mr.  BuNN.  We  have  invested  up  to  date  something  like  $11, 000,000 
in  that  work,  Mr.  Horn? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  have  not  seen  those  figures.  Now,  taking  this  all 
together,  this  work  is  actually  authorized.  The  chief  engineer  told 
me  the  other  day — I  think  it  was  Monday — that  that  work  had 
actually  started.  It  is  shown  in  yellow,  due  possibly  to  the  draftsmen 
not  having  the  formal  authority;  but,  we  are  rebuilding  either  by 
alternate  line  or  double  tracking  the  existing  line  at  that  end,  nearly 
700  miles. 

Commissioner  Lane.  But  the  great  bulk  of  it  is  on  the  western  end? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  great  bulk  of  it  is  on  the  western  end. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  will  be  the  effect  of  building  this  new  low- 
grade  line  on  the  western  end,  so  far  as  developing  traffic  which  goes 
into  Dakota  and  Minnesota  is  concerned.  You  expect  to  get  a  greatly 
increased  traffic,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  that  will  tend,  unless  measures  are  taken 
to  reUeve  the  congestion  at  this  end,  to  congest  still  further  up  here, 
will  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  hard  trouble  is,  we  have  got  to  fit  the  whole  railroad 
up  at  once.  It  is  not  a  job  that  we  can  do  in  one  spot.  The  whole 
railroad  was  in  pretty  good  shape  in  19^4,  and  it  was  in  very  bad 
shape  in  1906. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Some  allusion  was  made  by  one  of  the  witnesses,  Mr. 
Horn,  to  the  Northern  Pacific  having  cut  down  its  expenditures  in 
the  machinery  department.     Have  you  the  figures  on  that  subject? 


230  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  got  them  here.  In  1900  we  spent 
in  maintenance  on  equipment  $2,232,400;  in  1906  we  expended 
$5,944,119. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Charged  to  repairs  or  to  maintenance? 

Mr.  Horn.  Maintenance  of  equipment;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  does  not  mean  increased  maintenance 
of  equipment;  what  of  equipment? 

Mr.  Horn.  You  would  call  it  repairs,  perhaps,  in  speaking  of  it. 
It  is  to  keep  the  repairs  in  working  order. 

Mr.  Bunn.  What  is  the  comparison  of  the  account  between  1901 
and  1905? 

Mr.  Horn.  1900,  Mr.  Bunn? 

Mr.  Bunn.   1900  and  1905? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  expended  $2,232,400  in  1900  and  $5,944,119  in  1906. 

Mr.  Bunn.  That  is  more  than  double? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunn.  There  has  been  a  constant  increase  in  the  interim? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunn.  I  think  you  need  not  give  those  figures.  I  simply  want 
to  negative  that  proposition. 

Mr.  Horn.  An  increase  in  1905  of  a  scant  $100,000,  as  compared 
with  1904. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Of  course,  equipment  has  been  growing  poorer 
and  older  and  needed  more  repairs  as  time  has  gone  on. 

Mr.  Horn.  The  increase  in  equipment  expense  is  one  of  the  penal- 
ties of  getting  too  many  foreign  cars  on  your  line.  This  year  about 
1,600  bad-order  cars  (in  freight — I  am  talking  about  freight) — I  say 
1,500  this  year — we  have  about  1,600  right  now.  Three  months  ago 
we  had  about  2,600  bad-order  cars.  Now,  a  large  percentage  of  those 
are  the  foreign  equipment  that  comes  over  our  Ime.  It  is  not  in  a 
general  way  as  well  built  as  our  own;  it  does  not  stand  the  punish- 
ment as  well  as  our  own,  and  increasing  the  foreign  cars  on  our  line  has 
been  expensive  in  several  ways — in  the  amount  of  equipment  charges, 
in  the  rental  we  have  had  to  pay  while  they  are  here,  because  we  were 
not  making  the  movement  we  were  two  years  ago  with  the  foreign  car. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  did  not  answer  the  suggestion  which  was 
made,  whether  your  equipment  in  1905  and  1906  is  older  and  more  in 
need  in  repairs  than  it  was  in  1900. 

Mr.  Horn.  How  is  that  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  the  equipment  of  the  Northern  Pacific,  at 
the  present,  or  was  it  in  1905,  on  the  whole,  or  in  poorer  condition  than 
it  was  in  1900? 

Mr.  Horn.  No,  relatively,  the  Northern  Pacific's  equipment  is  rela- 
tively newer  than  it  was  a  year  ago. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  does  it  compare  with  1900 — is  it  not 
newer  then  it  was  then  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Relatively,  yes. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  it  not  true,  Mr.  Horn — take  the  year  1900, 
to  illustrate  that  more  coal  and  small  cars  are  on  hand  which  are  un- 
dergoing alterations  and  being  discarded  and  new  cars  being  pur- 
chased in  their  place  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  By  line  equipment,  as  you  have  used  that 
phrase,  you  include  replacing? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  231 

Mr.  Horn.  No.  sir;  I  include  in  this  item  repairs — the  repairs  to 
the  cars  thai  we  have  on  our  rails. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Just  a  mere  matter  of  repairs — we  show  the  additional 
investments. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  must  say,  it  is  not  explained  yet,  just  how 
it  is  that  a  lot  of  cars  which  are  newer  to-day  as  a  whole,  than  they 
were  a  year  ago,  should  cost  more  for  repairs? 

Mr.  BuNN.  We  have  a  good  many  more  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  No;  the  figures  do  not  bear  that  out. 

Mr.  BuNN.  If  I  understand  Mr.  Horn's  comparison,  between  1904 
and  1905,  he  stated  there  was  an  increase  in  every  intervening  year 
in  the  amount  expended  in  improvements.  My  purpose  is  sim- 
ply to  answer  the  suggestion  thrown  out  by  Mr.  rbelan  that  the 
Northern  Pacific  had  economized  in  its  equipment  and  had  decreased 
and  cut  down  the  amount  of  money  expended  for  repairs. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  amount  or  necessity — it  might  now  be 
even  much  greater. 

Mr.  Marble.  May  I  ask  a  question.  Commissioner  Lane,  just  to 
bring  this  matter  out?  Mr.  Phelan's  criticism  is  not  being  met,  as  I 
remember  his  testimony.  How  have  your  appropriations  increased 
for  parts — material  or  extra  parts  carried  on  engines  or  stuff  of  that 
sort? 

Mr.  Horn.  Our  supplies,  taking  them  the  way  we  used  to  keep 
them,  are  very  much  neavier  than  they  used  to  be,  something  like,  I 
would  say,  offhand,  $1,000,000  more;  but  we  have  got  an  account  of 
the  last  two  years  of  what  we  call  our  circulating  supplies,  the  supplies 
we  are  using  every  month,  and  we  keep — those  have  been  running 
about  the  same,  about  one  and  one-hair  million  dollars  on  hand  for 
the  last  two  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  to  the  amount  consumed,  the  amount  used  up  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  amount  on  hand. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  say,  as  to  this  other  item — the  amount  consumed? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  amount  consumed  is  a  good  deal  more.  I  can  not 
give  you  the  exact  figures,  but  I  took  it  up  with  one  of  our  stores  men, 
and  the  ratio  is  very  much  higher  than  it  was  two  years  ago. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Is  the  amount  consumed  higher  than  in  the  figures  that 
you  have  read  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  In  this  amount  of  equipment? 

Mr.  Bunn.  Yes. 

Mr.  Horn.  Oh,  yes;  that  is  labor  and  material. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Now,  go  back  to  that.  Now,  let  us  have  this  clear. 
These  figures  represent,  as  I  understand  it,  the  amount  paid  out  for 
labor  and  matenal  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Exactly. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Includmg  equipment  and  repairs?  Now,  you  can  state 
why  it  is  it  has  increased  from  $2,250,000  in  1900  to  $5,500,000  at 
the  oresent  time? 

Mr.  Horn.  Well,  for  instance,  on  cars.  I  can  not  compare  these 
cars  with  1900,  Mr.  Bunn,  because  we  go  back  to  1901,  but  on  cars 
we  have  63  per  cent  more  equipment  in  cars.  On  engines  we  use  the 
driver  weight  for  measuring  the  engines.  We  have  90.6  per  cent 
more  engines  in  1906  than  we  had  in  1901. 


232  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Is  it  true  that  all  this  equipment  has  been  more  taxed 
and  used  in  1905  than  in  1901? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  has  been  used  very  much  harder.  The  miles  made 
are  more  than  we  used  to  make  with  our  engines.  We  are  doing 
better  on  mileage,  making  more  miles  with  our  cars  than  we  did  in 
1901. 

Mr.  BuNN.  And  also  more  miles  with  your  engines? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir;  considerably  more. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  gave  some  figures  in  your  direct  examination  of 
the  per  cent  of  engmes  out  of  service.  If  I  understood  you  in  the 
matter  correctly,  you  included  in  engines  out  of  service  everything 
that  was  out  for  twenty-four  hours. 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  gave  the  figures  for  1905;  have  you  got  any 
figures  of  the  same  kind  for  the  year  prior  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Which  figures  are  vou  talking  about? 

Mr.  Bunn.  The  percentage  of  efficiency  of  engines  to  the  whole 
number  run  from  August,  1904,  to  November  1,  1906.  You  have 
not  any  figures  prior  to  that? 

Mr.  Horn.  No,  sir;  we  never  kept  the  report  in  this  shape.  We 
started  in  August,  1904. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Have  you  analyzed  the  business — the  increase  of 
business — so  as  to  be  able  to  say  whether  there  was  an  unusual 
increase  in  the  short-haul  business? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  think  I  can  give  you  that  answer  perhaps  in  this  way: 
We  used  to  have  considerably  more  car  mileage  than  now,  but  these 
cars  being  loaded  from  the  head  of  the  Lakes  and  going  into  the 
Dakotas  have  delayed  our  cars,  and  while  the  car  mileage  this  year 
is  not  as  great  as  last,  the  loaded  car  mileage  is  better — bigger  per- 
centage of  cars  used. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Did  you  have  any  trouble  with  labor  and  with  storms 
this  fall?  Did  they  play  any  part  in  the  congestion  which  has 
existed  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Labor  has  been  very  short,  and  a  great  deal  of  it  is  not 
as  effective  as  usual,  and  it  has  added  a  very  important  part  to  our 
troubles.  The  most  of  our  Pacific  and  Seattle  division  was  tied  up  for 
eleven  days,  and  when  it  was  opened  it  was  not  as  effective  as  it  was 
before,  on  account  of  switches  and  part  of  it  not  being  opened  up  at 
the  end  of  eleven  days.  Storms  ]^ave  been  bothering  us,  holding  up 
our  trains  off  and  on,  I  would  say,  for  the  past  ten  days  in  North 
Dakota. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  does  the  scale  of  wages  this  last  year 
compare  with  1901  on  your  road? 

Mr.  Horn.  They  are  no  lower  than  1901,  and  any  changes  that  have 
been  made  have  been  to  raise  the  1904  raises. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  what  the  percentage  is  of 
increase  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  In  some  items — in  the  yard  men,  that  is  the  firemen  and 
helpers — it  has  been  13 J  per  cent.  The  train  men  are  working  under 
the  same  scale  as  1904. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  The  thought  I  have  in  mind  is  this:  You 
have  spoken  of  the  shortage  in  labor. 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 


OAR  SHORT AQB.  233 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Now,  it  has  been  a  common  story  in  the 
press  for  the  last  two  or  three  years  that  farmers,  in  order  to  get  their 
wheat  harvested  and  thrashed,  have  had  to  raise  their  wages  very  con- 
siderably. The  question  in  my  mind  is  whether  there  is  not  any  duty 
on  the  part  of  the  railroads,  when  the  farmers  have  to  pay  so  much 
higher  wages  to  get  their  wheat  thrashed — the  question  arises  in  my 
mind  whether  there  is  not  some  duty  on  the  part  of  the  railroads  of 
the  country  to  get  the  wheat  moved,  and  offer  such  inducements  to 
move  it. 

Mr.  Horn.  There  has  been  no  hesitancy  about  raising  the  wages  of 
labor  (bv  that  I  mean  common  labor,  such  as  I  understand  you 
mean)  whenever  we  thought  it  would  do  any  good — whenever  we 
thought  we  could  get  more  men  by  doing  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Just  give  instances  of  where  that  has  been 
done — where  you  have  offered  increase  of  wa^es  in  order  to  induce 
labor  to  come  to  you.  Take  the  present  condition  here — all  the  eleva- 
tors are  said  to  be  filled  with  wneat  ready  to  move.  What  induce- 
ments have  you  offered  labor  to  come  to  you  to  help  move  that  wheat? 

Mr.  Horn,  ^^^ly,  we  have  raised  our  wages  along  our  line,  from  one 
end  of  the  line  to  the  other,  on  track  labor.  We  have  raised  our 
wages. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  When  was  that. 

Mr.  Horn.  Some  of  it  was  done,  I  would  say,  in  July;  some  of  it 
may  have  been  done  a  little  earlier  than  that,  and  then  it  has  been 
done  in  patches  during  the  winter. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Horn,  let  me  pursue  the  matter  a  little 
further.  The  railroads,  in  a  general  way,  are  under  obligations  to  the 
public  to  move  the  traffic.     You  will  admit  that? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  intend  to  meet  the  conditions? 
The  testimony  here  shows  that  all  these  elevators  are  filled  at  this 
moment.  If  not  all  of  them,  at  least  many  of  them  are  filled,  and  you 
have  ascribed  a  part  of  your  inability  to  move  that  wheat  to  shortage 
in  labor.  Now  what  present  means  have  you  taken  to  induce  labor  to 
come  to  you,  and  to  that  extent,  to  overcome  this  inability  to  move 
the  wheat.  You  catch  my  point,  do  you  not  ?  Whether  j'ou  have 
offered  any  extraordinary  inducement,  at  this  time,  to  meet  this  situa- 
tion and  intluce  labor  to  come  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Well,  we  look  upon  raising  wages  as  the  principal  induce- 
ment, and  we  raised  the  wages.  When  we  raised  the  wages,  for 
instance,  of  switchmen  at  the  head  of  the  Lakes,  that  was  a  general 
movement  all  over  the  country. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  was  done  recently? 

Mr.  Horn  That  was  effective  November  1.  When  that  raise  was 
made,  we  thought  we  were  ^oing  to  get  a  good  deal  of  benefit  from 
more  men — better  men,  but  it  did  not  work  out  for  about  a  month  or 
so.  We  had  a  great  deal  of  trouble  in  getting  men  at  the  head  of  the 
Lakes,  in  switchmen. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  one  point.  Now  at  other  points  on 
the  railroad,  what  have  you  done  to  induce  labor  to  come  to  you  to  get 
this  wheat  moved? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  have  raised  our  wages,  wherever  we  thought  a  raise 
of  wages  would  do  any  good.  The  trouble  is,  the  men  are  not  in  the 
country.    We  have  scouts  out. 


234  CAE   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  kind  of  labor  do  you  mean? 

Mr.  Horn.  Now? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes;  to  move  this  wheat.  Let  us  confine 
it  specifically  to  the  wheat  question. 

Mr.  Horn.  Do  you  mean  to-day? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Horn.  We  need  terminals  to-day,  and  more  railroads. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  am  not  talking  about  facilities;  I  am 
talking  about  labor — what  kind  of  labor  do  you  need  at  those  points 
where  there  is  congestion  of  wheat  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  do  not  need  any  labor  to  help  move  the  wheat.  I 
am  talking  of  this  minute — to-day.  We  are  well  fixed  for  men  right 
now. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Then  the  shortage  of  labor  does  not  enter 
into  the  congestion? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  does,  in  this  way:  If  there  had  not  been  a  shortage 
of  labor  these  facilities  would  have  been  in  shape  now;  and  that  thing 
is  what  has  delayed  our  work. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Horn  has  not  testified  of  any  shortage  of  train  men. 

Mr.  Horn.  We  have  no  shortage  of  train  men  or  enginemen.  Last 
June  we  were  short,  but  I  would  say  that  we  have  been  in  good  shape 
for  train  and  enginemen  since  about  the  first  of  July. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  the  terminal  you  refer  to  is  at  Duluth? 

Mr.  Horn.  At  Duluth. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  where  you  were  embarrassed? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  When  was  there  a  shortage  of  labor  in  Duluth? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  would  say  from  the  20th  to  the  30th  of  November. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  you  must  have  prepared  for  your  ter- 
minals before  the  20th  of  November  or  before  the  20th  of  October? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  tried  to  prepare  for  them  up  there,  but  that  was 
the  yard  that  was  not  quite  finished.  That  was  where  we  increased 
our  facilities  40  per  cent,  but  did  not  get  the  work  done  in  time  to  get 
any  benefit  from  it  this  year. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  you  certainly  knew  some  time  in  advance 
of  the  movement  of  the  wheat  crop  that  that  terminal  was  not  going 
to  be  ready,  did  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  No;  we  did  not. 

Commissioner  Lane.  When  was  it  that  you  first  discovered  you 
were  short  on  terminal  facihties  for  the  movement  of  the  crop  this 
year? 

Mr.  Horn.  About  a  j-ear  a^o.  1904  we  got  through  nicely;  1905 
we  had  trouble.  We  went  right  after  it,  and  the  yards  that  we  asked 
for  cost  something  like  $200,000.  The  necessity  olf  that  was  explained 
and  I  do  not  believe  we  were  three  days  in  gettmg  the  authority  to  do 
that  work. 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  Now,  then,  did  you  start  in  immediately  upon 
the  work  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  started  right  in  as  soon  as  we  could  get  a  dredge  to 
handle  it.  They  started  in  as  soon  as  they  could  get  a  dredge.  The 
yard  was  so  congested  we  could  not  haul  material  through  our  yard 
without  going  out  of  business  in  the  handling  of  our  freight. 

Commissioner  Lane.  When  was  that — when  was  the  time  you 
started  to  do  the  work  at  this  terminal — what  time  was  it  ? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  235 

Mr.  Horn.  I  can  not  answer  that.  The  engineering  department 
handled  the  grading  of  the  yard. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Was  it  approximately  in  the  spring  of  this 
year? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir;  just  as  early  as  we  could  get  the  dredge  to 
work. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Was  the  delay  in  the  completion  of  that  ter- 
minal due  in  any  part  to  a  lack  of  labor  in  Duluth  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  presume  so,  but  it  was  handled  by  a  contractor  and  he 
was  hampered  part  of  the  time  with  his  dredge,  and  part  of  the  time, 
I  have  understootl,  with  lack  of  labor. 

Mr.  Marble.  Part  of  the  time  he  quit  your  employment  entirely, 
did  he  not  1 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Your  present  condition  is  due  to  lack  of 
facilities  and  the  lack  of  facilities  is  due  to  the  previous  shortage  of 
labor? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  is  about  right? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  understand  it  now. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Can  you  tell  the  Commission,  Mr.  Horn,  whether  there 
is  any  money  appropriated  by  the  Northern  Pacific  for  improvements 
and  chargeii  up  to  such  purposes  during  the  past  year,  which  has  not 
been  spent  for  lack  of  labor? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  there  is  a  large  amount. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Well,  roughly  speaking,  how  much? 

Mr.  Horn.  Oh,  between  $6,000,000  and  $7,000,000,  I  would  say; 
maybe  more  than  that. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Horn,  you  referred  to  the  dia^am  which  you 
showed  me  and  which  I  would  like  to  have  you  get  m  here  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  can  get  those  diagrams. 

^Ir.  BuNN.  Simply  to  illustrate  two  or  three  of  these  questions  in 
a  graphic  shape  and  instead  of  leaving  it 

Commissioner  Lane.    While  Mr.  Horn  is  getting  those  I  will  read 
a  telegram  just  received  from  Park  River,  N.  Dak. 
Interstate  Commbrcb  Commission,  Minneapolis,  Minn. 

City  schools  and  electric-light  plant  entirely  out  of  coal.  Flour  mill  has  been  dosed 
for  a  week.  Iiupueeihle  to  get  any  informationoraccominodation  from  Great  Northern 
llailruad.  Coal  dealers  have  had  no  fuel  for  sale  for  two  weeks.  Can  furnish  written 
evidence  showing  discrimination  on  part  of  Great  Northern. 

J.  J.  Dougherty. 

I  referred  this  telegram  to  the  Great  Northern  officials,  and  they 
report  that  they  did  take  in  a  carload  of  coal  day  before  yesterday. 
Yesterday  they  were  unable  to  get  one  in ;  and  that  they  will  take  it 
up  immediately  and  are  trying  to  take  care  of  the  supply  at  Park 
River.     That  is  right,  Mr.  Begg,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Begg.  Yes,  sir;  three  cars  day  before  yesterday. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Horn,  before  you  take  those  off,  I  want  to  ask  you 
what  you  have  done  on  the  Northern  Pacific — what  measures  have 
been  taken  to  supply  the  need  of  coal  in  North  Dakota? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  would  like  to  go  back  a  little  on  that. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Don't  go  back  too  far. 

Mr.  Horn.  We  have  burned  up  three  stock  piles  we  had  during  the 
last  year  in  order  to  give  people  coal.  We  nad  stock  piles  on  the 
Yellowstone  division,  and  we  piled  them  up  three  times,  and  the 


236  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

needs  for  commercial  coal — could  not  supply  it — we  have  used  out  of 
our  stock  piles,  and  let  the  coal  that  we  wished  to  bum  on  our  engines 
go  to  the  commercial  trade.  We  have  jeopardized  our  operation  a 
good  deal  by  taking  just  as  little  coal  as  we  could,  and  we  have 
expedited  the  coal — given  it  preference  over  evervthing  that  we  run 
in  the  way  of  freight  trains,  and  at  times  even  sidetracking  our  fast- 
time  freights. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Are  you  giving  coal  that  preference  now  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  long  have  you  been  doing  so  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  On  some  parts  of  the  road  we  began — we  have  done 
some  of  that  in  October  on  parts  of  the  road. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Dakota — North  Dakota,  particularly? 

Mr.  Horn.  North  Dakota — I  would  say  we  have  been  preferencing 
that  fairly  two  or  three  weeks. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Giving  the  preference  to  coal  loaded  for  North  Dakota 
from  Duluth  for  two  or  three  weeks  over  any  other  kind  of  freight  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Are  you  turning  in  all  the  empty  cars  that  you  can  get 
into  this  business? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir.  We  have  been  able  to  get  some  more  cars 
from  a  party  at  the  head  of  the  lakes  to  haul  our  own  coal,  so  as  to  be 
able  to  take  care  of  the  public  a  little  better. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Now,  if  you  will  show  those  diagrams. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  it  possible  that  you  could  take  those  dia- 
grams and  submit  a  written  statement? 

Mr.  BuNN.  It  won't  take  five  minutes,  and  I  should  like  to  have 
you  see  them. 

Commissioner  Lane.  All  right. 

(The  above  is  marked  "Exhibit  No.  3 — Horn,"  and  filed  herewith. 

Mr.  Horn.  Here  is  the  gross  ton  miles  as  platted.  That  is  a  year — 
there  are  twelve  spaces — a  month  for  each  space,  and  here  [indicating] 
is  platted  the  gross-ton  miles,  because  that  is  the  work  the  engine 
has  to  do.  That  is  the  weight  we  have  to  move.  Here  [indicating] 
is  the  business — the  net-ton  miles.  Now,  that  shows  the  increase 
from  month  to  month,  but  what  it  brings  out  is  what  I  call  peak  loads 
in  the  fall.  November  was  that  year;  but  that  is  the  peak  load,  and 
you  see  the  business  jumps  up  there  from  8h  to  12  in  two  months. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  is  the  increase  in  your  gross-ton  miles  from  1891 
to  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  will  call  it  4^%  up  to  13. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Four  and  two-tenths  up  to  13,  comparatively? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  is  it. 

Mr.  BtJNN.  That  has  increased  about  three  times  since  1899? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  has  increased  about  three  times  since  1899. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  much  has  the  car  capacity  increased  in 
that  time  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  will  give  you  that.  Here  is  our  business.  Now, 
calling  1901 — I  did  not  go  back  beyond  1901.  Here  are  the  figures 
from  1901  to  1906.  Now,  taking  1901  as  a  hundred  per  cent  there 
[indicating]  is  the  hne  showing  the  increase  of  business  in  five  years. 
Now,  there  is  the  driver  weight,  the  capacity — that  is,  the  capacity 
of  the  engine — the  dotted  line.  We  averaged  there,  you  will  see,  at 
about  700  engines  a  day,  an  average  driver  weight  capacity  of  65,000 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  237 

pounds.  In  1906  we  had  1,005,  and  an  average  driver  weight  capac- 
ity of  120,000  pounds.  Now,  here  [indicating]  is  the  number  of  care 
that  have  been  purchased.  You  see,  that  does  not  show  much 
increase  in  car  numbers,  but  putting  it  in  the  capacity  of  the  cars  that 
shows  the  increase. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Increased  from  700  to  1,150? 

Mr.  Horn.  In  capacity;  yes,  sir.  Now,  here  is  the  line  of  our 
business — this  black  line  here  [indicating]:  1903  to  1904  stood  almost 
stationary';  1901  was  a  hundred  per  cent.  There  is  [indicating]  125, 
150,  and  so  on.  The  red  line  is  the  engine  driver  weight  increase  and 
the  green  line  is  the  per  cent  increase  of  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  One  moment;  let  me  see  that. 

Mr.  Horn.  If  we  get  the  cars  and  engines  promised  for  1907 — and 
we  have  bought  particularly  ^^^th  deliveries  this  year — we  have 
sacrificed  money  in  order  to  get  deliveries — prompt  deUvery.  Those 
engines  and  cars  have  been  pfomised  for  early  delivery.  Now,  if  we 
get  the  engines  and  cars  promised  for  1907  delivered,  our  engine  per 
cent  for  1907  will  be  right  where  I  have  marked.  Our  business,  net, 
increased  15  per  cent  over  1901.  Just  where  it  has  gone  so  far  will 
l)e  there  [indicating].  Our  car  ecjuipment  will  be  there.  That  is, 
vou  will  see  that  we  will  have  a  littl^  more  engines,  relatively,  than 
business,  a  little  less  cars;  but  we  feel  that  with  all  this  alternate  or 
double  track  and  yard,  we  are  going  to  move  our  traffic  back  in  the 
same  old  mileage  that  we  made  two  or  three  years  ago,  so  that  this 
car  equipment  is  probably  more  eflfective  than  is  really  required. 
That  is  tne  reason  I  conclude  we  are  lining  up  in  an  intelligent  way 
to  take  care  of  next  year's  business.  The  whole  road  has  got  to  be 
extended. 

Commissioner  Lane.  In  1899,  according  to  this  table,  you  had 
between  48,000  and  50,0001 

Mr.  Horn.  Four  and  nine-tenths  gross  tons. 

Commissioner  Lane.  In  1906? 

Mr.  Horn.  Scant  12.8. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  an  increase  of  nearly  three  times. 

Mi.  Horn.  Two  and  three-tenths  per  cent.  That  is  the  weight  of 
the  plane.     Here  is  the  business. 

Commissioner  Lane.  This  is  net  tons  that  represents  2,200  as  to 
62? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  is  right  as  near  as  we  can  get  at  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  [indicating]  net-ton  miles? 

Mr.  BuNN.  Business  has  increased  nearly  three  times. 

Mr.  Horn.  Here  is  something  I  would  like  to  call  your  attention 
to  -the  fiscal  years  of  1903  and  1904;  there  was  that  slump  in  busi- 
ness, and  then  up  it*n\ent  again. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  your  freight  cars,   according   to   this 
statement,  appear  to  have  increased. 

Mr.  Horn.  That  line  [indicating]  shows  the  car  numbers  and  that 
line  shows  the  capacity. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Capacity  from  7  to  1 1  i  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  a  little  less  than  100  per  centi 

Mr.  Horn.  That  is  65  per  cent. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  in  comparative  per  cent,  what  is  the 
canacity — what  has  your  business  increased  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Business  has  increased  119  per  cent  in  five  yeara. 


238  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Business  has  increased  110  per  cent  in  five 
years,  so  that  proportionately  you  have  less  capacity  for  cars  than 
your  business  has  mcreased? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Horn,  in  addition  to  lack  of  facilities, 
there  is  also  a  lack  of  car  equipment? 

Mr.  Horn.  You  see  that  if  we  had  the  facilities,  we  would  get  a 
good  deal  more  effective  use  out  of  the  equipment. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Of  course,  I  see. 

Mr.  Horn.  We  are  not  very  proud  of  these  6,000  cars  among  our 
railroad  friends,  so  I  do  not  like  to  dwell  on  that  very  much. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  For  the  merchandise  tratle  are  you  using 
heavier  cars  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Our  box — our  box  cars  are  all  80,000  capacity. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Why  do  you  buy  cars  of  large  capacity! 

Mr.  Horn.  We  can  handle  the  business  a  good  deal  better. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Why? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  load  is  concentrated  into  shorter  space. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  does  that  affect  the  gross  tons? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  makes  a  reduction  in  the  resistance  on  the  engine. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Would  it  be  good  railroading  to-day  for 
any  railroad  to  go  back  to  smaller  cars  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  would  not  for  us. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  will  take  an  adjournment  at  1  o'clock 
until  half  past  1  o'clock. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  testified  of  the  car  movement  on  this  Min- 
neapolis division;  between  what  points  is  that? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  am  speaking  always  of  the  line  between  Staples  and 
Fargo. 

Au".  Marble.  Now,  we  have  had,  as  I  remember,  no  complaint  of 
failures  in  your  local  service  on  that  division;  am  I  correct  in  saying 
that  you  have  given  very  good  local  service  on  that  division  for  this 
year? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  have  done  as  well  as  we  can. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  elevators  been  blocked  on  that  division? 

Mr.  Horn.  There  is  not  much  grain  loaded  there;  they  have  not 
been  blocked ;  those  that  have  been  there  have  been  taken  care  of.  I 
think  I  explained  to  you  on  the  Minnesota  and  St.  Paul  division  we 
had  enough  unloading  points  to  make  these  cars  for  grain. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  have  gotten  the  cars  up  there  to  those  points, 
the  cars  to  be  unloaded  have  been  delivered,  and  when  loaded  have 
been  hauled  away  with  fair  dispatch  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  As  far  as  I  know. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  as  far  as  any  have  been  reported  to  you? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  so  far  as  this  hearing  has  shown,  our  complaints 
are  not  in  that  division  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  division  carried  more  through  traffic. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  more  tonnage? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  do  you  explain  that  you  gave  better  service  to 
the  local  trade  on  a  division  where  you  handled  so  much  more  ton- 
nage than  you  were  able  to  give  up  in  North  Dakota,  where  you 
handled  less  tonnage? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  239 

Mr,  Horn.  The  local  demand  amounts  to  very  little.  It  is  an  easy 
thing  to  give  good  service  on  a  railroad  where  tnere  is  not  very  much 
to  give,  and  it  is  very  hard  to  give  it  where  it  is  hard  to  move  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  that  there  is  more  local  demand  on  the  North 
Dakota  divisions? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  would  be  the  exj)lanation  of  why  you 
broke  down  up  there  or  were  embarrassed  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  do  not  mean  that  there  is  more  demand  to  handle 
that  local  service  in  the  fall  than  there  is  between  the  points  that  you 
named,  but  the  back  movement  always  affected  the  stuff  that  was 
originating  in  this  Dakota  territory.  There  was  not  much  business 
in  the  territory  that  you  name  that  could  be  affected  by  this  back-up 
from  the  head  of  the  Lakes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  I  have  here  the  sheets — the  statement  of  the 
wheat  received  this  month — and  there  was  more  from  Minne.sota 
points  than  from  North  Dakota  points  to  this  market,  and  the  grain 
originating  in  the  Minnesota  points  has  come  to  this  market  with 
dispatch,  while  the  grain  coming  to  this  market  from  the  North 
Dakota  territory,  some  of  it  has  come  with  dispatch  and  some  of  it 
has  been  slow.  What  I  want  to  get  at  is  why  on  this  very  busy 
system  have  you  been  able  to  accommodate  what  local  trade  there 
was  nearer  the  back-up  from  Duluth,  while  back  on  the  divisions 
which  were  not  so  busy  your  local  trade  has  had  to  suffer  more  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  You  start  a  local  out  of  Staples,  and  the  business  offered 
in  this  territory  from  Staples  to  Fargo  is  ver}^  light.  Day  after  day 
that  local  would  go  Uirough  and  probably  pick  up  everything  that 
was  offered.  The  offering  were  heavy  in  North  Dakota.  The  local 
would  start  out  of  its  ori^nal  starting  point  and  get  all  it  could  handle 
before  it  got  into  a  terminal,  and  then  the  rest  would  have  to  wait. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  a  case,  then,  of  a  local  being  loaded  up  before 
it  got  to  the  terminal,  instead  of  being  handicapped  because  of  the 
greater  tonnage  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  No,  not  entirely;  because  there  were  times  it  would 
not  make  any  difference  how  the  facilities  in  the  freight  brought  in 
from  North  Dakota  were  we  could  not  get  it  into  Duluth. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  were  blocked  by  the  Duluth  situation? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  stated  that  your  car  mileage  this  last  year  was 
not  so  good  as  hitherto? 

Mr.  Horn.  Car  miles  per  day  were  not  so  good. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  that  your  loaded-car  mileage  was  better? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir;  that  was  the  short-haul  stuff  increavsed. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  would  show,  then,  that  the  loss  from  deficiency 
of  transportation  facilities  has  fallen  upon  the  shippers  rather  than 
upon  the  railroads? 

Mr.  Horn.  Not  at  all.  I  think  I  explained,  or  tried  to,  that  we 
went  over  that  thing — our  various  officers,  over  and  over  again — 
and  tried  to  avoid  some  of  this  west-bound  haul  out  of  the  head  of 
the  Lakes.  We  held  a  good  many  conferences  among  our  officers, 
and  we  said,  "We  will  take  this  out,  and  we  will  leave  an  empty 
behind,''  and  it  seemed  as  though  that  would  work  quite  as  much 
hardship  upon  the  public  as  failure  to  move  it. 


240  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  am  getting  at  the  nature  of  the  result  at  the  end 
of  the  year.  You  will  have  had  more  loaded  car  miles;  therefore 
your  income  will  be  ^eater,  and  you  will  have  had  a  successful  year? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir.  We  will  also  have  a  very  expensive  year  in 
operation. 

Mr.  Marble.  Because  of  such  emergency  measures  as  this  rush  of 
coal  over  the  country  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  nas  something  to  do  with  it;  and  the  item  of  car 
balance  of  one  hundred  thousand  dollars  a  month  adds  to  that 
expense. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  make  money  by  that? 

Mr.  Horn.  Make  money — yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  does  a  car  earn? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  can  not  tell  you. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Midgley  says  they  are  worth  from  eight  to  ten 
dollars  a  day  in  a  very  busy  time.     Is  that  right? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  may  be  the  average. 

Mr.  Ma-RBLE.  You  are  paj-ing  25  cents  a  day? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  is  the  money,  but  I  say  relatively  our  operating 
expense  increased. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  more  you  could  increase  that  operating  expense, 
the  more  profit  you  would  make.  Ordinarily  you  get  in  freight  money 
several  times  wnat  you  pay  in  per  diem  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Ordinarily  we  get  several  times  over  for  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  hardly  fair  to  quote  that? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  is  all  rio;ht. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  increased  the  wages  of  machinists  or  rail- 
road einployees  at  all? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  have  increased  them  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  hampered  for  lack  of  labor  of  that  sort? 

Mr.  Horn.  Not  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  during  this  crop  year? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  were  prior  to  September  1.  I  do  not  think  we 
have  been  very  much  short  during  September,  as  far  as  I  know. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  far  as  you  know  you  have  not  been  hampered 
very  much  during  September  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  are  all  right  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  your  road  taken  any  independent  action  in  rais- 
ing wages  in  order  to  get  labor  to  reUeve  this  situation,  as  an  emer- 
gency? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  have  had  scouts  out  looking  for  labor. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  taken  any  independent  action,  independent 
of  the  other  roads,  in  raising  wages  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Oh,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  class  of  labor? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  raised  our  firemen.  We  did  so  the  1st  of  Septem- 
ber.    There  was  no  firemen's  movement  on  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  other  roads  did  not  join  in  that? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  do  not  know  about  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  was  not  done  by  common  agreement? 

Mr.  Horn.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  that  done  to  help  this  wheat  movement? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  was  done  to  help  all  our  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  did  you  reduce  the  tonnage  of  the  fast  freight 
train  No.  53,  if  you  did  reduce  it  ? 


CAR   SHORT AOB.  241 

Mr.  Horn.  If  I  am  correctly  informed,  I  would  say  it  was — that  is, 
the  present  rate  was  October  1,  1906,  when  we  began  running. 
You  mean  our  transcontinental  time  freight,  the  one  we  run  now? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  Horn.  I  would  say  about  October  1,  1906. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reduced  the  tonnage  then? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  was  simply  a  net  reduction  in  the  freight  tonnage. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  it  reduce  the  tonnage  on  the  engine,  or  notf 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes;  I  presume  so.  We  wished  to  preference  that 
class  of  freight.  Our  service  on  those  particular  items  had  grown 
so  that  we  had  enough  stuff  to  make  a  fair  amount  of  tonnage  to  go 
through  to  the  sound,  and  we  felt  that  we  could  afford  to  expedite 
that  train  a  little  better  than  we  wore  doing,  with  the  growing  busi- 
ness, which  imposed  additional  burdens.  Now,  we  used  to  make  the 
time  on  that  train  with  the  tonnage,  but  we  have  a  good  many  trains 
to  meet  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  did  you  reduce  the  tonnage  if  they  were  making 
the  time? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  had  not  been.  We  formerly  did,  until  this  business 
began  to  block  us  too  much. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reduced  the  tonnage  so  as  to  make  the  time?  A 
lighter  train  did  not  need  so  much  headway.     That  is  true,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  could  make  its  stations? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  a  day  of  twenty-four  hours'  run  do 
you  consider  fair  work  for  the  track  between  Jamestown  and  Fargo  ? 
1  ou  have  spoken  of  the  capacity  of  a  single  track.  I  want  to  know 
how  many  trains  a  day  you  consider  the  fair  capacity  of  that  track. 

Mr.  Horn.  If  we  can  handle  ten  freights  a  day  each  way  we  will 
be  very  well  pleased. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  will  be  twenty  freights,  and  how  many  passen- 
gers? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  have  four  a  day  there. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  makes  28  trains.  Are  there  any  other  trains 
you  put  in  to  make  that  a  fair  maximum  capacity  in  fair  weather  on 
that  division? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  do  not  understand  that  question. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  want  to  get  at  the  fair  maximum  capacity  of  that 
division — a  single-track  division — how  many  trains  a  day  do  you 
expect,  when  vou  are  doing  good  work,  to  put  over  that  division? 

Air.  Horn.  About  10  a  day,  each  way. 

Mr.' Marble.  Ten  freights? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes. 

Mr  Marble  About  four  passengers? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  any  other  trains  now? 

Mr  Horn.  That  ten  includes  about  what  we  think  we  can  move. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  about  28  for  24  hours  is  fair  work  for  a 
single-track  division? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  anything  extraordinary  about  that  division 
that  reduces  the  number? 

S.  Doc.  333,  59-2 16 


242  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Horn.  About  40  per  cent  mileage  is  helper  mileage,  and  it  is 
hard  to  get  your  helpers  around. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  in  other  single-track  divisions  where  the  ele- 
ment of  grades  does  not  enter  in — just  good  normal  grade? 

Mr.  Horn.  In  the  districts  between  Livingston  and  Glendive,  there 
are  no  helpers  in. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  trains  do  you  consider  fair  for  the  single- 
track  division  there  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  can  expect  to  put  in  practically  20  trains  a  day 
each  way  over  any  one  of  the  other  districts. 

Mr.  MARBLE.  How  many  passengers? 

Mr.  Horn.  Four  or  five. 

Mr.  Marble.  Each  way? 

Mr.  Horn.  Each  way. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  ail  about  fifty  trains? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  would  expect  to  get  them  over  the  road — 
twenty-five  trains  each  way — without  having  to  delay  at  passing 
points? 

Mr.  Horn.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Fair  maximum  work? 

Mr.  Horn.  With  that  kind  of  movement  they  will  probablj^  be  a 
third  of  their  time  -between  terminals,  maybe  more — tney  would  be 
standing  on  passing  tracks. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  would  you  put  on  there  to  have  the 
traffic  moved  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Why,  all  that  is  necessary.  That  piece  of  railroad  has 
got  a  good  deal  more  capacity  than  busmess;  that  is,  they  can  handle 
more  than  either  side  can  bring  to  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  We  are  not  discussing  that  at  all.  I  am  trying  to 
find  out  what  a  single-track  capacity  is? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  do  not  think  the  number  of  trains  is  a  fair  way  to 
measure  it  at  all.  You  could  run  maybe  fifty  light  engines  over  a 
division  each  way,  and  not  have  any  trouble  at  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  do  you  mean  then  by  saying  that  to  reduce 
the  tonnage  would  increase  the  number  o^  trains,  and  that  any 
increase  in  the  number  of  trains  would  cause  delays  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Because,  if  you  have  got  a  volume  of  business  to  handle, 
the  bigger  units  that  we  can  make  a  fair  time  in,  the  more  you  can 
handle  over  any  district.     I  know  that  from  actual  experience. 

Mr.  Marble.  We  have  been  told  here  that — you  have  told  us  that 
you  decreased  the  tonnage  of  this  freight  that  you  wished  to  favor,  so 
it  would  go  over  the  road. 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  We  have  asked  you  why  you  did  not  decrease  the 
tonnage  of  your  slow  trains,  so  that  they  could  get  over  the  road,  and 
you  said  that  additional  trains  would  cause  delays 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  when  I  ask  you  how  many  trains  can  be  put 
over  a  single-track  division,  you  say  that  is  not  a  fair  way  to  measure 
the  capacity  of  a  division? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  say  that  a  fair  way  to  measure  the  capacity  of  a  divi- 
sion is  how  much  freight  you  can  put  over.  Now,  jf  you  are  going 
to  nm  it  say  in  ten-car  trains,  as  you  do  a  passenger  perhaps,  j'ou 


CAB  8HORTAGB.  243 

would  be  having:  a  pretty  busy  time  getting  through  a  hundred  cars 
at  that  speed.  That  would  not  take  care  of  a  single  district  on  the 
Northtrn  Pacific. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  your  freight  trains  and  your  freight  be  expe- 
dited in  delivering  if  you  should  take  at  least  100  tons  off  of  your 
trains? 

M.  Horn.  I  think  the  condition  would  be  worse. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why? 

Mr.  Horn.  Because  we  try  to  move  as  big  a  unit  as  we  can  get 
over  the  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  would  be  the  evil  if  you  did  not  try  to  move 
the  biggest  unit? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  public  would  lose  just  that  much  more  business 
than  they  are  now  oy  our  failure  to  move  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  not  move  any  more  trains? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  would  not  move  as  many  trains;  we  would  not 
move  as  many  tons. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  reduce  your  very  heavily  loaded  trains,  say 
100  tons  each,  would  the  trains  go  faster? 

Mr.  Horn.  I  do  not  believe  it  would  make  a  particle  of  difference. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  why  did  you  reduce  tne  tonnage  on  your 
oriental  train? 

Mr.  Horn.  We  quit  putting  the  rider  in  because  it  saved  time  in 
switching,  and  we  could  run  the  train  not  much  faster,  but  we  had 
nothing  to  do  with  it — we  had  enough  freight  through  to  the  coast 
or  Spokane  without  any  change. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  the  reason? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir;  we  hoped  to  put  that  train  through  our  termi- 
nals in  pretty  fair  shape,  and  we  loaded  other  freight  out  of  it.  If 
we  triecl  to  move  many  trains  at  that  speed  we  are  not  going  t-o  begin 
to  do  anything  like  the  business  we  are  now  doing. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  testified  a  moment  ago  that  that  train  made 
its  meeting  points  better. 

Mr.  Horn.  Against  passenger  trains;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Wouldn't  that  be  true  if  the  trains  were  a  little  lighter? 

Mr.  Horn.  No;  too  many  to  meet.  Mr.  Slade  explained  to  you 
that  that  was  the  theoretical  reason, 

Mr.  Marble.  Never  mind  the  theoretical  reason  for  a  moment. 
Let's  get  down  to  railroading. 

Mr.  Horn.  I  am  trj'iog  to  find  out  about  the  practical  matters 
myself.  Ten  years  ago  I  was  in  charge  of  the  work  of  cutting  down 
the  grades  to  where  thev  are  now.  They  were  handling  700  tons,  as 
a  rule.  We  began  handling  1 ,400-ton  trains,  as  soon  as  these  grade 
revisions  were  made.  The  chief  dispatcher  told  me  that  as  soon  as 
we  began  running  the  1,400-ton  trams  the  trainmen  that  had  been 
making  2,500  miles  a  month  on  that  district  run  it  up  to  3,500.  I 
think  that  shows  that  the  average  train  carries  more  than  it  had  been 
with  the  shorter  trains. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  percentage  of  that  was  overtime? 

Mr.  Horn.  When,  before  or  after? 

Mr.  Marble.  After. 

Mr.  Horn.  That  is  miles,  mind  you;  no  overtime. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  had  counted  meeting  at  sidetracks? 


244  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Horn.  Oh,  yes;  this  is  miles  that  the  man  made.  I  say  it  is 
not  included,  all  the  time  the  man  made  on  the  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  then,  to  expedite  this,  what  do  you  say  is  the 
number  of  trains  which  should  pass  over  a  single-track  division,  on 
normal  grades,  in  twenty-four  hours?  How  many  can  you  operate  so 
as  not  to  lose  time  at  meeting  points? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  depends  entirely  upon  the  district. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  said  normal  grades — where  you  do  not  have  heavy 
grades.     I  asked  you  to  give  a  typical  one. 

Mr.  Horn.  You  can  not  move  a  train  without  having  some  delay. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  can  meet  a  train  without  having  three  hours' 
delay,  can  you  not,  such  as  your  train  sheets  are  snowing — good 
operation,  expeditious  movement?  I  want  to  get  a  sort  of  standard 
to  judge  these. 

Mr.  Horn.  I  would  say  on  these  short  districts — I  explained  between 
Livingston  and  Glendive — we  ought  to  move  twenty  to  thirty  over  in 
each  direction. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  passenger  trains,  without  interfering 
with  that  movement? 

Mr.  Horn.  Four  or  five  and  the  overtime,  or  the  time  standing  on 
the  siding — any  overtime  ought  to  be  30  to  40  per  cent  on  the  termi- 
nals.    We  would  then  be  getting  up  pretty  close  to  the  old  limit. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  would  Toe  50  to  60  freight,  and  perhaps  10 
passenger  trains? 

Mr.  Horn.  Sixty  or  seventy. 

Mr.  Marble.  Sixty  or  seventy.  That  would  be  the  limit.  These 
divisions,  then,  that  are  handling  only  26  trains  are  not  overworked  as 
to  the  number  of  trains  1 

Mr.  Horn.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

Edmund  Pennington,  called  as  a  witness,  and  being  duly  sworn, 
was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Pennington,  you  reside  in  Minneapolis? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  the  vice-president  and  general  manager 
of  the  Soo  road? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  am. 

Mr.  Marble.  Give  us  the  full  name  of  that  road  ? 

Mr.  Pennington,  ^linneapolis,  St.  Paul  and  Sault  Ste.  Marie. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  engines  have  you? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Two  hundred  and  two. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  proportion  of  those  are  in  the  repair  shop? 

Mr.  Pennington.  From  7  to  10  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  consider  that  that  is  extraordinarily  low  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No;  that  is  about  the  way  they  run. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Horn,  what  percentage  of  your  engines  are  in  the 
repair  shops  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  The  practical  service  runs  18  or  19  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  want  them  to  cover  exactly  the  same  figures. 

Mr.  Horn.  I  would  sav  we  have  about  65  or  70  engines  in  the  shop 
out  of  the  1 .060. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  is  this  18  per  cent? 


CAR   SHORTAGB.  245 

Mr.  HoRX.  This  is  the  engines  that  are  not  exactly  available  for 
service  at  this  moment. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  percent ajjes  of  your  engines  are  not  available) 

Mr.  Pennington.  About  10  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  your  engines  that  are  in  use  in  efficient  condition? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  consider  that  they  need  go  to  the  repair 
shop  f 

Mr.  Pennington.  No;  not  at  present,  no. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many  cars  have  vou  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Eleven  thousand  seven liundred. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many  are  off  of  your  line? 

Mr.  Pennington.  At  the  present  time  I  should  say  about  4,552.  I 
have  not  looked  it  up  the  last  day  or  two. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many  foreign  cars  did  you  have? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Two  thousand  nine  hundred  and  seventy-six. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  unfortunate,  are  you  not  ^ 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  are,  most  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  is  a  copy  of  your  car-balance  sheet? 

Mr.  Pennington.  It  was  prepared  by  our  car  accountant's  office. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  say  it  is  correct,  according  to  your  records  ? 

Mr.  Pennington,  It  is. 

(The  above  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1 — Pennington,"  and  is  filed 
herewith.) 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  not  been  able  to  keep  the  elevators  on 
your  line  clear  of  wheat  during  the  crop  season? 

Mr.  Pennington.  They  take  it  in  faster  than  we  can  move  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  take  it  in  faster  than  you  can  move  it?  Where 
is  the  point  that  you  fail  in  movin«j  in  the  outlying  districts? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  are  unable  to  move  it,  because  our  connec- 
tions are  unable  to  take  it  off  our  hands  and  take  it  to  its  destination — 
to  the  local  elevators,  the  greater  part  of  which  are  on  the  Northern 
Pacific  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  consider  you  have  had  cars  enough? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  enough  cars? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  would  if  we  had  power  enough  to  move  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  cars  enough  if  you  had  power  enough? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  short  of  power  are  you? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  are  short  of  power  at  certain  seasons  of  the 
year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  short  of  power  during  this  last  crop 
year? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  previous  to  the  cold  weather? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  are  short  of  power  every  year,  the  same  as 
every  other  railroad  is,  for  about  three  months  in  the  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  increasing  your  power  supply  from 
year  to  year?  * 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Endeavoring  to  have  enough  at  the  busy  season? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 


246  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  felt  that  the  freight  was  there  and  even  if 
it  waited  you  would  get  it  in  the  succeeding  months? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  not  most  railroad  men  consider  that  freight  on 
their  lines  belongs  to  them,  and  that  they  will  move  it  when  they  get 
to  it,  and  that  it  is  impracticable  to  move  it  in  the  busy  season? 

\Ir.  Pennington.  Our  line  is  very  competitive,  and  if  we  did  not 
move  the  freight  we  would  lose  it;  it  would  go  to  the  other  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  Being  in  competitive  territory  makes  a  difference  in 
policy  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  noncompetitive  territory  the  policy  might  be 
different  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  It  might. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  would  be  the  diflFerence  in  policy? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Very  likely  I  would  take  care  of  competitive 
territory  first. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  would  railroad  men  generally?  I  observe  you 
use  the  personal  pronoun. 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  should  think  so;  it  is  a  business  proposition. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you,  as  a  railroad  man,  think  they  keep 
their  equipment  up  to  the  highest  demand  during  every  month  of  the 
year? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  keep  it  in  good  repair  all  the  while. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  not  my  question.  Suppose  during  the  month 
of  October,  as  these  tables  show  here,  is  the  highest  demand  for 
tonnage  during  the  entire  year — do  you  claim  to  keep  a  sufficient 
number  of  locomotives  and  have  a  supply  of  cars  on  hand  to  supply 
the  demand  during  the  month  of  October? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Or  do  you  aim  to  meet  the  average  require- 
ment during  the  year? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  have  got  the  power  and  cars  enough. 

Commissioner  Lane.  No  doubt  the  terminals  are  pretty  busy? 

Mr.  Pennington.  It  would  not  be  policy  nor  prudent  to  keep  cars 
enough  to  move  all  the  grain  that  is  raised  as  quick  as  they  want  to 
move  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  As  quick  as  they  want  to  move  it? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  think  a  single-track  railroad 
could  move  it  if  they  had  all  the  power  and  all  the  cars  that  they 
wanted,  for  this  reason:  Taking  our  own  lines — we  have  from  three 
thousand  to  four  thousand  cars  that  we  will  accumulate  in  the  wheat 
districts,  and  they  will  go  to  thrashing  about  the  same  time.  The 
elevators  will  take  in  grain,  the  farmers  will  load  it;  they  will  work 
nights,  they  will  work  Sundays.  We  will  move  it  as  fast  as  possible. 
There  is  a  certain  number  of  cars  coming  in.  Now,  these  cars — 
the  side  tracks  were  all  full  of  empties.  The  cars  are  allotted,  one 
here  and  there,  and  they  have  got  to  be  switched  out,  which  takes 
time.  The  trains  can  not  move  near  as  fast  on  the  start  as  they  can 
after  they  have  got  the  accumlilation  of  cars  out.  By  the  time  this 
accumulation  of  cars  gets  out  the  terminals  are  full.  Then  we  com- 
mence to  set  out  cars.  We  can  not  take  them  in,  because  the  termi- 
nals can  not  take  care  of  them.  In  my  experience,  this  year  is  the 
only  year  that  the  Minneapolis  terminal  has  not  been  blocked.     We 


CAB   SHOBTAQE.  247 

have  had  to  set  out  every  Saturday  or  Sunday.  We  could  not  get 
a  carload  in,  because  the  terminal  was  full. 

The  chamber  of  commerce  works  about  five  or  six  hours  a  day. 
They  do  not  work  on  holidays  nor  on  Sundays.  The  railroads  work 
twenty-four  hours  a  day  and  Sundays  and  hoUdays,  and  so  we  have 
to  lay  still  and  let  this  accumulation  back  up.  I  have  often  seen 
it  back  up  100  miles.  It  has  been  expensive  business  for  us  to  have 
to  run  our  e^ieines  m  to  take  these  out.  then  run  light  engines  out  to 
get  this  in.  Now,  the  grain  is  handled  in  about  this  manner:  It 
comes  in  here  and  is  inspected  along  about  8  or  9  o'clock — ^possibly 
10— and  then  samples  are  taken  on  the  board.  At  4  o'clock  in  tne 
afternoon,  if  this  has  been  sold,  we  receive  disposition,  and  you  are 
given  a  list  of  cars  to  be  sent  to  the  different  elevators.  Many  of 
them  will  call  for  reinspection.  They  have  to  be  set  out,  for  different 
reasons,  if  they  want  to  hold  the — could  not  sell  that  grain  to-day. 
They  want  to  hold  it  over,  so  they  have  different  reasons.  Then  we 
have  got  to  set  that  out.  There  is  the  great  trouble.  I  have  taken 
as  high  as  a  hundred  cars  and  made  an  average  of  it.  We  bring  in 
a  hundred  cars  of  wheat  into  Minneapolis,  anaget  them  out,  say,  in 
ten  days,  doing  the  ver}'  best  we  can. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  from  the  time  you  brought  in  the 
wheat  to  the  inspection? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Brought  it  in  here  to  the  inspection  here.  By 
the  time  we  could  get  the  empties  out  again  it  would  be  ten  days. 
We  were  perfectly  helpless. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Whose  fault  was  that? 

Mr.  Pennington.  The  paraphemaUa  which  this  wheat  has  got  to  go 
through,  switched  over  the  different  tracks,  to  get  it  into  the  different 
elevators,  all  around. 

A  man  will  put  up  a  card  to  the  effect  that  he  is  a  broker,  a  commis- 
sion man.  He  has  nothing  but  a  4-foot  office,  and  he  has  these 
farmers,  in  the  different  fields,  to  ship  the  grain  to  him,  and  then  if  he 
can  not  sell  it,  he  will  put  every  possible  obstruction  on  the  handling 
of  it,  sparring  for  time — sparring  so  that  he  may  get  a  better  market 
to-morrow.     In  the  aggregate  it  amounts  to  a  groat  deal. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  a  demurrage  charge? 

Mr.  Pennington.  There  is  a  demurrage  charge  after  forty-eight 
hours. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  is  without  the  power  of  the  railroad  to  stop 
this  condition  of  things  if  it  wishes? 

Mr.  Pennington,  f  do  not  know  how. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Why  not?  Can  they  not  raise  their  demur- 
rage so  that  it  would  be  a  very  expensive  practice  for  them  to  keep  cars 
in  use  as  warehouses? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  do  not  think  that  would  be  practicable. 

Commissioner  Lane,  Why  not? 

Mr.  Pennington,  We  have  never  been  ver^'  succe.s.sful  in  getting  it 
accomplished. 

Commissioner  Lane,  Have  you  ever  tried  to  do  it? 

Mr,  Pennington,  We  have  got  a  demurrage  of  $1  a  day  after  forty- 
eight  hours. 

Commissioner  Lane,  Why  should  a  man  lose  in  North  Dakota,  be- 
cause you  people  do  not  choose  to  put  on  a  higher  price  on  demurrage 


248  OAR   SHORTAGE. 

and  to  allow  the  consignee  down  at  this  end  to  hold  the  car,  instead  of 
imloading  it  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Suppose  he  pays  a  demurrage,  can  not  he  hold 
the  car? 

Mr.  Marble.  The  higher  the  demurrage,  the  less  likely  he  is  to 
hold  the  car? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  should  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  you  say  that  shippers  and  receivers,  generally, 
are  partly  responsible  for  the  failure  of  freight  cars  to  move — is  that 
the  meaning  of  what  you  are  saying  now  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  It  is  the  fault  of  the  manner  in  which  the  grain  is 
handled  and  the  switching  of  the  lines  in  the  terminals.  For  instance, 
I  have  got  a  railroad,  and  the  most  of  the  elevators  are  not  on  my 
line.  The  cars  are  switched  into  these  elevators  as  fast  as  possible. 
We  can  get  only  about  so  much  out  of  them.  I  think  the  greater  por- 
tion of  the  elevators  are  on  the  Great  Northern  road.  I  think  the 
largest  elevators  in  this  State  are  on  the  Great  Northern,  and  conse- 
quently it  congests  the  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  an  elevator  failure,  an  elevator  congestion,  or 
a  switching  congestion  ? 

Mr.  Pennington,  Switching.  The  elevators  wiU  handle  it  if  thev 
can  get  it  to  them.  I  think  all  the  elevators  there,  loading  or  unload- 
ing, can  handle  it  as  fast  as  the  roads  can  give  it  to  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  the  interposing  of  fictitious  reasons  for  holding 
the  grain  in  the  car,  and  not  switching  it  to  the  elevator,  do  you  think 
that  could  be  stopped  by  increasing  the  demurrage  charge  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  do  not  think  it  could. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  they  would  do  it,  no  matter  how  much  is 
charged  for  demurrage  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  They  would  detain  the  car  for  twenty-four 
hours.  They  could  afford  to  pay  whatever  would  be  a  reasonable 
demurrage. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  they  not  release  the  car  oftener  with  a  $2 
charge  than  with  $1  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  That  is  possible. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  remedy  to  offer  for  that? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No;  none  at  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  None  at  all? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Grain  that  comes  in  from  line  elevators  destined  to 
terminals  here — you  have  said  it  is  destined  without  waiting  for  it  to 
be  sold  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  sir.  The  majority  of  it  is  sold.  We  have 
two  terminal  elevators.  One  holds  about — I  say  on  our  line— one 
holds  about  700,000  bushels  and  the  other  about  300,000  bushels. 
Now,  they  are  intended  to  be  for  storage.  They  use  them  very  little. 
The  majority  of  their  grain  they  sell.  It  goes  to  the  mills  and  different 
elevators. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  has  to  go  through  this  procedure  of  switching? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  should  think  it  would  be  desirable  to  reduce  the 
delay,  and  I  presume  you  are  working  on  it  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  would  like  to  have  them  put  it  right  into 
their  elevators,  and  give  us  the  cars  right  back. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  249 

Mr.  Marble.  ^Vnd  are  you  attempting  to  enforce  penalties  so  as  to 
get  cars  moved? 

Mr.  Pennington.  They  sell  their  grain,  and  it  is  distributed.  They 
do  not  want  to  store  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  loss  of  use  of  the  freight  cars  in  loading) 

Mr.  Pennington.  In  loading? 

Mr.  Marble.  At  the  loading  end  of  the  line? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  JkLA.RBLE.  Have  there  been  instances,  on  your  line,  of  loaded  cars 
standing  without  being  moved  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Manv  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  how  long  have  you  had  any  stand  after  loading? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  presume  we  have  had  cars  standing  for  thirty 
days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  is  that? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  could  not  get  our  connections  to  take  them 
out  of  the  way. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  are  your  connections  that  make  this  trouble? 

Mr.  Pennington.  The  Northern  Pacific  and  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  Into  Duluth  and  Superior? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Into  Duluth  and  Superior. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  prompt  service  of  release  of  cars  on 
that  portion  of  your  business  this  year? 

Mr.  Pennington.  From  them? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  conditions  at  Duluth  and 
Superior? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Nothing  only  what  I  have  heard. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  investigated  them  yourself? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  a  great  deal  of  trouble,  have  you,  in  getting 
cars  returned  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  A  great  deal  this  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  that  reduced  your  equipment? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Very  much. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  not  investigated,  so  you  can  not  say  just 
what  caused  the  delay? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  very  much  concerned  about  it? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Very  much. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  didn't  you  investigate  it? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  sent  a  man  up  there  to  find  out  what  was 

•  the  trouble  and  corresponded  with  the  Northern  Pacific  and  the  Great 

Northern  a  great  deal.     They  assured  me  they  were  doing  everything, 

under  the  conditions,  to  return  the  cars.     Theit  is  all  that  I  could  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  concluded  that  was  true? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes;  from  the  looks  of  things.  That  is  the  way 
it  looked  to  me. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  do  not  suppose  you  would  care  to  criticise  opera- 
tion of  another  railroad,  anyway? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  shotild  not;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Even  though  you  might  have  some  just  cause  for  it? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  sir. 


250  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  done  any  new  construction  work  this  year? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  have  laid  120  miles  of  new  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  Any  terminal  construction? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Some. 

Mr.  Marble.  Or  yards  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir 

Mr.  Marble.  Wliat  is  your  total  mileage  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Two  thousand  three  hundred  and  twenty  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  rebuilding  any  terminals  and  division 
point  yards  also  ? 

^r.  Pennington.  Not  this  year — oh,  yes,  we  did  too.  We  added 
two. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  get  your  work  done  that  you  started  to  do  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  not  all  of  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  did  you  fail  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  w^ere  short  of  labor. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  same  trouble  which  was  reported  by  the  other 
managers? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  been  short  of  skilled  labor  this  year? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Some,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  class  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Machinists  and  boiler  makers. 

Mr.  Marble.  Short  of  enginemen  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  not  short;  but  we  have  got  some  that  are 
very  inferior. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  remedies  to  suggest  for  the  failure  of 
the  cars  to  move — anything  you  can  suggest  that  would  stimulate 
the  movement  of  freight  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Nothing,  only  to  improve  the  outlet,  where 
they  go  into. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  the  terminals? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  remedy  to  suggest  to  prevent  the 
diversion  of  cars  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  wish  we  knew  how.  I  have  been  trying  it  for 
a  long  while. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  your  road  one  of  the  roads  which  joined  in  increas- 
ing the  per  diem  rate  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  expect  very  much  from  that,  do  you? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  do  not,  such  times  as  this. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  increase  is  only  25  cents  a  day  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  They  get  50  cents,  and  since  the  1st  of  December 
they  are  trying  to  pass  the  rule  making  it  $5  for  a  diversion.  I  think 
that  is  right,  Mr.  Horn  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  find  the  roads  breaking  the  penalty  on  you  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  they  do  it  by  paper  deliveries  and  fictitious  deliv- 
eries to  other  roads  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  do  not  know  that  we  have  had  any  cases  of  that 
kind. 


CAB   SHOBTAGE.  251 

Mr.  Marble.  But  do  you  get  very  much  penalty  money? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Our  balance  is  on  the  wroni^  side  this  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  cars  that  are  off  of  your  line — what  is  the  pen- 
alty for  diverting  a  car? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No  notice  is  given. 

Mr.  Marble.  Isitfl? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No;  it  is  $5  now  after  the  1st  of  December. 
Fifty  per  cent  per  diem  per  car  and  no  penalty — before  we  had  80 
cents — isn't  it,  Mr.  Horn,  prior  to  December  1  ? 

Mr.  Hobn.  Eighty  cents  before  and  a  dollar  after  ten  days. 

Mr.  Mabble.  No  penalty  after  notice  to  return  the  car? 

Mr.  Horn.  Nopenalty  at  all— 50  cents  a  day  all  the  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Previous  to  December  1  had  you  collected  any  pen- 
alty money? 

Sir.  Pennington.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Much? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  do  not  know  how  much.  We  collect  all  we  can 
catch. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  given  notice  that  you  want  your  cars  back? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  the  penalty  broken  generally? 

Mr.  Pennington.  The  penalty  was  broken? 

Mr.  Marble.  Were  there  paper  transfers? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  can  not  recall  any  particular  cases.  I  have 
reports  that  roads  were  making  the  paper  transfers.  I  do  not  know 
whether  they  do  or  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  After  vou  gave  them  notice  did  you  get  the  cars? 

Mr.  Pennington.  No,  sir.  Our  cars  ^o  down  into  New  England 
a  good  deal.  They  hold  them  up  down  there — New  England  roads — 
and  they  promise  to  send  them  back  and  do  not  do  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  trains  a  day  do  you  say  you  can  operate 
on  a  single-track  railroad  with  normal  grades,  where  you  do  not 
require  a  helper  or  engine? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Well,  there  are  a  good  many  things  you  would 
have  to  take  into  consideration.  You  would  have  to  know  some- 
thing about  the  conditions.  In  North  Dakota  weather — bad  weather — 
it  would  be  a  pretty  difficult  thing  to  operate  8  or  10  trains. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  would  not  be  a  normal  condition? 

Mr.  Pennington.  That  is  operating  condition  there.  Take  it 
east  of  us.  We  have  500  miles  of  road  that  runs  to  Sault  Ste.  Marie. 
It  is  in  a  timbered  country,  good  water,  and  you  would  hardly  know 
you  had  a  railroad.  You  take  the  line  west  of  Minneapolis,  where 
there  is  eighteen  hundred  or  two  thousand  miles  of  railroad,  and  it  is 
a  different  proposition. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  trains  would  you  say  east  of  you  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  East  of  us? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes.  Everything  in  good  condition — the  present 
condition  the  road  is  in? 

Mr.  Pennington.  It  is  not  fixed  for  that.  You  would  have  to  put 
in  stations  closer  together  and  use  the  block  system.  We  have  some 
stations  20  miles  apart.  That  would  be  too  long  between  meeting 
points.  If  stations  were  closer  together — 4  or  5  miles,  possibly  6 — 
you  could  get  fifteen  to  eighteen  trains  a  day  over  it  each  way  in 
twenty-four  hours. 


252  OAK   SHORTAGE. 

Coimnissioner  Harlan.  How  about  this  estimate  we  had  of  20  to 
30  freights  each  way  and  5  passengers,  making  60  or  70  trains  over 
the  division? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  consider  that  pretty  high.  I  should  say  it 
was  pretty  high;  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  in  making  up  trains  sacrifice  speed  to  tonnage  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  sacrifice — we  reduce  the  tonnage  of  our 
engines  when  we  have  more  business  than  we  can  move  with  our 
power. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  consider  that  by  reducing  the  tonnage  you 
actually  move  more  tons  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Where  business  is  brisk  we  reduce  the  train 
about  200  or  300  tons. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  in  that  way  move  more  tons? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  move  more  stuff? 

Mr.  Pennington.   Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  generally  understood  by  railroad  men,  is  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  believe  tnat  is  understood  to  be  good  practice. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Bright.  If  you  had  more  locomotives,  and  cars  enough  to  load 
all  the  wheat,  and  all  the  railroads  in  the  wheat  region  had  the  same, 
as  fast  as  people  wanted  to  ship  it,  what  do  you  say  as  to  the  result 
at  the  terminals  in  relation  to  Duluth  and  Minneapolis  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  think  I  told  you  what  the  result  would  be — 
that  they  would  be  full  in  thirty  days. 

Mr.  Bright.  If  you  had  terminal  proportions  to  meet  such  an 
extraordinary  handling  of  the  crop,  to  what  extent  do  you  think 
those  terminals  would  have  to  be  increased  to  handle  them  all  during 
the  time  that  they  would  like  to  ship,  beginning  with  the  1st  of 
September? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Oh,  I  could  not  say. 

Mr.  Bright.  You  could  not  guess  at  that? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  would  not  like  to  undertake  to. 

Mr.  Bright.  We  might  have  to  double  them. 

Mr.  Pennington.  The  thing  will  remedy  itself,  of  course. 

Mr.  Bright.  To  meet  the  demand  in  the  first  of  October,  to  ship  all 
the  wheat  crop  as  fast  as  people  wanted  to  ship  it,  you  would  not  only 
have  to  duplicate  your  rolling  stock,  but  you  would  have  to  duplicate 
your  terminals  also  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  the  Northern  Pacific 
had  allowed  cars  to  stand  at  your  delivery  point  thirty  days  without 
moving? 

Mr.  Pennington.  I  did  not  say  so. 

Mr.  BuNN.  If  I  correctly  understood  you,  you  might  have  had  loads 
on  your  road  thirty  days,  oecause  your  connections  were  blocked,  and 
it  was  no  use  to  haul  them  to  the  connection — have  your  cars  been 
kept  by  the  Northern  Pacific  to  any  greater  extent  than  three  weeks — 
kept  tnem  when  they  got  them  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  This  year  the  Northern  Pacific  kept  the  cars 
about  as  long  again  as  ever  heretofore. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  have  other  companies  done  ? 


OAB  SHORTAGE.  253 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  have  undertaken  this  year  to  keep  our  care 
closer  than  heretofore. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  saythey  get  down  into  New  England? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  lose  them  there. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Did  you  say,  Mr.  Pennington,  that  the  Northern  Pacific 
is  worse  than  anybody  else  1 

Mr.  Pennington.  No.  This  year  the  conditions  are  much  worse 
than  they  have  been  heretofore. 

Mr.  BuNN.  There  has  been  no  trouble  at  Minneapolis  this  year  in 
handling  grain,  has  there,  Mr.  Pennington — no  congestion  here  i 

Mr.  Pennington.  Not  any.  There  has  been  a  great  deal  larger 
proportion  of  wheat  coming  to  Duluth  than  previous  years. 

Mr.  Bright.  The  testimony  here  showed  that  the  intake  from  the 
Soo  into  Minneapolis  tliis  year  during  three  months  was  3,000,000 
bushels  less  than  last  year.  Did  the  road  haul  less  wheat  on  the  whole 
to  both  points,  Duluth  and  Minneapolis,  than  in  1905,  or  as  much? 

Mr.  Pennington.  In  the  four  months'  crop  we  hauled  13.13  per 
cent  more  cars. 

Mr.  Bright.  And  so  that  the  number  of  cars  sent  to  Duluth  was 
very  greatly  increased  as  compared  with  last  year. 

Mr.  Pennington.  Eighteen  and  seven-tenths  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  taking  the  two  markets  as  one,  you  say  you 
are  not  responsible  for  the  shortage  ? 

Mr.  Pennington.  We  handled  more  grain  by  13  per  cent  than  we 
handled  any  other  year. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  will  now  take  a  half  hour's  recess. 

(Thereupon,  at  1  o'clock  p.  m.,  the  Commission  adjourned.) 

AFTER  recess. 

December  19,  1906—1.30  p.  m. 

George  S.  Loftus,  called  as  a  witness  and  being  duly  sworn,  was 
examined  and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  the  city  of  St.  Paul  ? 

Mr.  LoFFUs.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  in  the  grain  business? 

Mr.  Loftus.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  the  elevator  business  ? 

Mr.  Tx>Fru8.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  brought  with  you  correspondence  and  doc- 
uments showing  delays  in  shipments  of  grain? 

Mr.  Ix)ftus.  I  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  May  we  have  those? 

Mr.  Loftus.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  had  trouble  during  this  crop  season  in  your 
business  by  reason  of  delays  in  transportation? 

Mr.  Loftus.  Yes,  sir;  considerable. 

Mr.  Marble.  More  than  in  previous  years? 

Mr.  Loftus.  An  unusual  amount. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  roads? 

Mr.  Loftus.  Principally  on  the  northern  road.s — Northern  Pacific, 
Great  Northern,  and  Soo. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  why  that  was — why  the  delay  was? 


254  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  LoFTFS.  There  has  been  a  great  many  explanations  offered  for 
the  delaj's  on  those  Hnes,  but  I  believe  it  is  due  largely  to  their  suj>- 
posed  economical  methods  of  operation.  I  think  the  fact  of  the  con- 
solidation of  the  two  northern  roads  had  much  to  do  with  the  delays 
we  have  experienced  in  the  past  three  or  four  years.  Competition  no 
longer  exists  in  the  northern  territory  reached  Iby  the  Northern  Pacific 
and  Great  Northern  such  as  we  enjoyed  four  or  five  years  ago.  The 
Soo  road  has  been  opening  up  a  great  deal  of  new  territory,  and  I  do 
not  believe  they  have  equipped  themselves  with  sufficient  cars  and 
locomotives  with  which  to  handle  the  increased  business  made  neces- 
sary by  the  new  territory  they  have  opened  up. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  if  you  will  put  this  correspondence  in — this  is 
correspondence  of  the  Royal  Elevator  Company? 

Mr.  LoPTUS.  This  correspondence  relates  to  a  car  load  of  oats,  pur- 
chased on  October  27,  and  sold  on  the  same  date;  shipment  made  on 
December  8  by  the  Royal  Elevator  Company  from  North  Dakota, 
on  the  Great  N'orthem  road,  coming  to  Deer  River.  I  called  up  the 
Great  Northern  road  this  morning  and  asked  for  a  record  on  the  car, 
and  they  said  according  to  their  last  report  it  was  still  in  North 
Dakota. 

(The  above  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1 — Ix)ftus,"  for  identification 
and  afterwards  with  permission  allowed  to  be  retained  by  Mr.  Loftus.) 

Mr.  Marble  (referring  to  paper).  "Rolla,  N.  Dak.,  November  2, 
load  of  oats  for  Deer  River." 

Mr.  Loftus.  At  10.30  this  morning  car  had  not  been  furnished  for 
shipment. 

CPai>er  referred  to  marked  "Exhibit  No.  2 — Loftus"  for  identifica- 
tion, and  by  permission  allowed  to  be  retained  by  Mr.  Loftus.) 

Mr.  Marble.  And  these  papers? 

3klr.  Loftus.  These  papers  relate  to  a  car  of  oats  ordered  out  of 
Campbell,  Minn.,  on  October  22,  going  to  a  point  on  the  Great  North- 
ern, and  up  to  the  16th  of  this  month  the  car  had  not  been  fm-nished, 
and  the  elevator  company  wrote  and  asked  if  we  still  wanted  the  ship- 
ment.    The  oats  are  on  hand,  and  they  are  unable  to  get  a  car. 

Commissioner  Lane.  October  21? 

Mr.  Loftus.  October  22. 

(These  papers  were  marked  "Exhibit  No.  3 — Loftus"  for  identifi- 
cation, and,  by  permission,  allowed  to  be  retained  by  Mr.  Loftus.) 

Mr.  Loftus.  Here  is  a  list  of  16  cars  that  remained  on  the  track  at 
Duluth  from  November  12  to  23,  for  which  this  requisition  was  fur- 
nished on  the  12th.  The  cars  were  not  moved  on  the  22d,  and  on  that 
date  we  filed  complaint  with  the  railroad  and  warehouse  commis- 
sion, who  investigated  before  I  came  here  and  reported,  and  soon 
thereafter,  in  the  course  of  two  or  three  days,  the  cars  were  removed 
to  their  respective  destinations. 

(Papers  referred  to  were  marked  "Exhibit  No.  4 — ^Loftus"  for  iden- 
tification and  made  a  part  of  this  record.) 

Going  over  our  car  book  I  picked  out  cars  on  different  roads  in  the 
last  two  months.  I  did  not  pick  out  particularly  on  the  Northern 
Pacific,  Great  Northern,  and  Soo  to  show  that  the  delay  is  experi- 
enced by  all  roads,  but,  as  previously  stated,  delay  is  greater  on  the 
northern  roads  than  on  the  southern. 

We  received  on  December  1  car  No.  67,342,  containing  corn  from 


CAif  %HORTAQB.  255 

Beresford,  S.  Dak.,  which  was  loaded  and  billed  out  on  November  16, 
and  we  have  the  shipping  bill. 

Here  is  one  on  the  Minneapolis  and  St.  Louis,  car  shipped  from 
Morton  November  15,  arrived  November  20. 

(Papers  referred  to  hereby  marked  "Exhibit  No.  7 — Loftus"  for 
identincation  and  made  a  part  of  this  record.) 

In  my  judj^ment  there  is  more  delay  to  equipment  in  the  terminal 
yards  than  there  is  in  transit.  I  have  a  list  of  a  number  of  cars  that 
were  delayed  on  the  Chicago  Great  Western  at  South  St.  Paul.  It 
takes  anywhere  from  three  days  to  ten  days  to  set  a  car  upon  a  track 
for  unloading  at  South  St.  Paul  after  it  arrives  there.  Here  is  a  car 
that  was  ordered  in  South  St.  Paul  for  the  Northern  Pacific  road  on 
the  28th  of  November.  The  car  was  set  for  unloading;  on  December 
17.  The  Union  Stock  Yards  correspondence  there  gives  the  record 
and  date  of  delivery  of  the  car  to  the  Western  road. 

(Papers  referred  to  marked  "Exhibit  No.  8 — Ijoftus,"  for  identifi- 
cation, and  with  permission,  were  allowed  to  be  retained.) 

I  want  to  show  that  the  delay  rests  with  the  Chicago  Great 
Western,  the  delay  I  speak  of  in  the  St.  Paul  terminal. 

There  is  correspondence  from  a  party  at  Geary,  Minn.,  giving  dates 
and  telling  how  many  weeks  and  months  cars  nave  been  delayed. 

(Correspondence  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  9 — Loftus,"  for  iden- 
tification, and  made  a  part  of  this  record.) 

Here  is  some  correspondence  from  parties  at  Fulton,  Minn. 

(The  same  were  marked  "Exhibit  No.  10,"  for  identification,  and 
made  a  part  of  this  record.) 

Here  is  correspondence  passed  between  our  office  and  the  railroad 
commission  relating  to  delays  of  different  cars  on  different  roads. 

(This  corresponoence  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  11 — Loftus,"  for 
identification,  and  made  part  of  this  record.) 

Here  is  a  freight  bill  for  a  carload  of  hay,  arrived  in  St.  Paul  on 
November  19.  That  was  delivered  three  times  to  the  Chicago,  Bur- 
lington and  Quincy  Railroad  for  shipment,  and  each  time  returned  to 
the  Soo  road  on  account  of  the  car  oeing  in  bad  order.  There  was  a 
fight  between  the  inspectors  of  the  two  roads,  as  to  the  condition  of 
the  car  and  as  to  the  responsibility  of  the  line  for  the  damage.  The 
car  was  delivered  the  third  time,  and  accepted  by  the  Soo  road  and 
sent  out  on  their  line  for  shipment,  and  during  the  time  it  was  switch- 
ing back  and  forth  between  the  two  roads  five  or  six  days  elapsed. 
The  Soo  line  informed  us — in  fact  the  agent  of  the  Soo  line  told  us — that 
it  was  necessary  to  blow  out  the  pipes,  and  there  was  a  question  as  to 
whether  it  was  to  be  the  delivering  line  or  the  receiving  line — whether 
it  was  the  duty  of  the  delivering  or  receiving  line  to  blow  out  the  pipe. 
I  just  mention  that.  I  just  call  your  attention  to  that  to  show  how 
the  delays  occurred  in  the  terminal  yards. 

I  have  prepared  here  two  statements  showing  the  numbers  of  about 
25  cars.  All  of  these  were  shipped  about  October  1 — between  Octo- 
ber 1  and  December  1 — showing  the  delay  there  in  transit  or  at  desti- 
nation in  placing  the  cars  upon  the  track  where  delivery  could  be 
effected,  or  at  the  industry  for  unloading,  from  one  week  to  three 
weeks. 

That  applies  to  cars  upon  different  roads.  I  give  date  of  shipment, 
the  car  number,  date  of  arrival,  and  date  cars  were  spotted  for 
unloading. 


256  OAB   SH0BTA6S. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  12 — 
Loftus.") 

As  to  hay  shipments,  some  of  the  roads  have  taken  it  upon  them- 
selves to  refuse  to  apply  certain  equipment  on  orders  for  nay.  The 
correspondence  I  have  here  shows  that  we  have  been  obliged*  to  wait 
for  many  weeks  for  cars,  and  I  have  here  the  correspondence  in  regard 
to  some  of  it. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  13 — 
Loftus.") 

Here  is  another. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  14 — 
Loftus.") 

On  November  13  we  purchased  a  car  of  oats  from  the  Imperial 
Elevator  Company,  whose  headquarters  are  at  Minneapolis.  The  car 
was  loaded  out  on  December  8,  Great  Northern  car  16820,  Bisbee, 
N.  Dak.,  shipped  to  Deer  River,  2klinn.  Up  to  the  17th  the  car  had  not 
arrived  at  Deer  River,  and  so  the  party  there  canceled  the  order, 
claiming  they  had  to  buy  oats  somewnere  else. 

Mr.  Mabble.  What  is  the  distance? 

Mr.  Loftus.  Approximately  275  or  300  miles,  and  I  have  the 
invoice  there,  the  snipping  receipt,  and  all  the  data. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  15— 
Loftus.") 

There  is  a  contract  for  710  tons  of  hay  we  purchased  on  September 
17,  at  a  point  north  of  here  about  150  miles.  We  sold  the  hav  soon 
after  it  was  purchased,  for  deUvery  to  the  stock  yards  here  at  a  highei 
price. 

By  reason  of  our  failure  to  secure  cars  for  the  hay  we  were  obliged 
to  go  on  the  open  market  and  buy  hay  at  an  increase  of  two  and  a  half 
to  three  dollars  per  ton,  with  which  to  fill  our  sale  to  the  stock  yards. 
We  are  still  Icokmg  for  the  cars  from  that  point.  It  is  Chikio,  a  point 
150  miles  north  of  here  on  the  Great  Northern. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  16 — 
Loftus.") 

This  relates  to  the  car  shortage  at  Ulen,  Minn,  [indicating]. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  17 — 
Loftus.") 

I  have  here  some  correspondence  from  a  firm  at  Sturgeon  Lake, 
Minn.,  a  point  on  the  Northern  Pacific  road — a  copy  of  a  report  of 
one  of  the  assistants  of  the  State  conmiission  who  investigated  the 
complaint  of  Mr.  Cunningham,  of  Sturgeon  Lake — showing  that  they 
had  to  wait  for  many  weeks  to  get  cars  for  the  shipment  of  wood  to 
different  points. 

Mr.  Cunningham  came  to  the  city  yesterday  for  the  purpose  of 
attending  the  mvestigation  and  for  the  purpose  ofgiving  testimony 
with  reference  to  the  car  situation  at  his  station.  While  in  the  Union 
Defwt  at  St.  Paul  yesterday  I  saw  him  talking  with  certain  officials 
of  the  road  upon  w^tose  tracks  he  is  located  and  he  was  told  that  if  he 
would  go  home  that  he  would  receive  a  sufficient  number  of  cars 

SromptTy  and  that  he  would  have  no  further  cause  for  complaint. 
Ir.  Cunningham  told  that  to  Mr.  Mattimore,  an  attorney  at  St.  Paul, 
and  Mr.  Mattimore  called  and  told  me  that  Mr.  Cunningham  went 
home  and  consequently  was  not  able  to  come  here  and  testify  at  this 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  257 

hearing.  Mr.  Marble  was  told  he  would  be  here  yesterday  and  I  am 
giving  this  in  explanation  of  the  facts. 

(The  paper  referred  to  above  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked 
"Exhibit  No.  18— Loftus.") 

Commissioner  Lane.  Was  he  under  subpoena? 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  under  subpoena,  but  requested  to  come. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Beoo.  Mr.  Loftus,  you  spoke  of  a  shipment  of  oats  to  Deer 
River,  which  took  considerable  time.  On  whose  tracks  was  the 
elevator  from  which  that  shipment  was  made  ? 

Mr.  Loftus.  Tlie  Imperial  Elevator  Company  made  that  ship- 
ment, and  they  are  located  on  your  tracks,  \lr.  Begg.  I  made  that 
statement,  assuming  that  to  be  the  case. 

Mr.  Beoo.  Do  you  know  that  the  shipment  was  ever  delivered  to 
the  Great  Northern  road  for  transportation? 

Mr.  Loftus.  I  presume  likely  it  was.  Your  agent  there  issued  a 
bill  of  lading  for  that  traffic  loaded  out  of  the  Imperial  elevator.  We 
have  that  letter  there  with  the  bill  of  lading  attached. 

Mr.  Bego.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

A.  H.  Hawley,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Hawley,  where  do  you  reside? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Davenport,  Iowa. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  in  the  employ  of  the  Interstate  Com- 
merce Commission? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  a  safety-appliance  inspector? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  recently  been  engaged  in  this  investiga- 
tion into  the  failure  of  transportation  facilities? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  what  point  did  vou  begin  the  investigation? 

Mr.  Hawley.  At  Spokane,  Wash. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  traveled  from  Spokane  to  Minneapolis? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Stopping  from  time  to  time? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Observing  the  conditions? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I'pon  your  arrival  at  Minneapolis  you  started  back 
to  the  Northwest  over  what  road  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  The  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble,  And  you  came  on  the  Great  Northern? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  west  on  the  line  did  you  go  on  the  last  trip? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Devils  Lake,  North  Dakota. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  you  returned  to  Minneapolis  again? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  returned  to  Crookston,  back  to  Grand  Forks,  and 
then  on  to  Minneapolis. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  instructions  were  to,  if  possible,  determine  why 
freight  did  not  move? 

S.  Doc.  333, 0J>-2 17 


258  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  TIawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  observe  conditions  generally? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  talk  with  train  men) 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Railroad  employees? 

Mr,  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  far  as  you  could,  did  you  get  the  consensus  of 
opinion  of  men  operating  the  road? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Not  particularly  men  operating  the  road,  but  mostly 
the  employees  who  were — possibly  who  might  be  termed  as  operating 
men. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  men  running  the  trains? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  started  at  Spokane.  Tell  us  (with  the  aid  of 
your  notes) — did  you,  from  that  point  to  this,  notice  that  there  was 
shortage  of  cars  on  the  Great  Northern  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Of  empty  cars? 

Mr.  Hawley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  they  have  empty  cars? 

Mr.  Hawley.  They  are  short  of  empty  cars  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Short  of  empties? 

Mr.  Hawley.  There  is  a  shortage  of  empty  cars  on  the  Great 
Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  see  a  great  many  loaded  cars  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Were  the  loaded  cars  moving? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Why,  at  the  time  I  was  looking  at  them  they  were 
not.  They  possibly  might  have  been  switched  in  the  yard,  but  the 
movement  appeared  to  be  very  slow  on  all  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  you  have  notes  here  of  the  yard  at  Hillyard, 
Wash.? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Showing  167  loaded  box  cars,  5  empties,  1  stock  car 
loaded,  10  empty,  2  coal  cars  loaded,  1  empty,  11  flat  cars  loaded,  8 
empty,  or  a  total  of  205  cars  in  the  yard  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Those  were  all  home  cars  and  there  were  160  foreign 
cars.  I  know  of  the  yards  at  Spokane  and  the  cars  there.  I  was  at 
Whitefish,  Mont.,  but  I  did  not  count  the  cars  at  Whitefish. 

I  was  also  at  Glasgow,  Minot,  N.  Dak.  and  Larimore. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  tell  us  briefly  the  number  of  cars  you  saw  at 
those  points? 

Mr.  Hawley.  At  Hillyard,  Wash.,  205  company  cars  and  160 
foreign  cars,  or  a  total  of  365  cars  in  the  yard. 

There  was  a  total  of  41  empties,  composed  of  7  box,  10  stock,  16 
coal,  and  8  flat  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  at  that  point  investigate  the  length  of  time 
they  had  been  standing  there  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  could  not  ascertain  the  length  of  time  they  had 
been  standing  there,  but  a  gentleman  there,  whom  I  believe  had  some 
authority — I  asked  him  how  the  trains  were  moving,  and  he  said  they 
were  moving  very  slowly.  I  asked  him,"  Why?"  He  said,  "Because 
they  had  no  motive  power  to  move  them." 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  259 

Mr.  Marble.  That  was  a  man  in  the  employ  of  the  railroad) 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes;  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  Glasgow,  Mont.,  did  you  investigate  delays  to 
locomotives  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  this  is  a  memorandum  of  that  [indicating]) 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tell  us  what  those  delays  were — some  of  them. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  think  that  to  commence,  you  should  show 
first  the  days  on  which  he  was  there,  and  then  you  failed  to  show  that 
he  was  a  railroad  man. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  worked  at  railroad  work  before,  have  you 
not) 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Been  in  the  emp'oy  of  the  Commission  how  long) 

Mr.  Hawley.  Six  years,  nearly. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  all  that  time  you  have  been  in  the  country 
observing  conditions  on  the  railroads) 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Through  six  years) 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  su*. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  were  not  stationed  in  Washington) 

Mr.  Hawley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Traveling  constantly) 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  long  have  you  been  a  railroad  man) 

Mr.  Hawley.  About  sixteen  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  date  aid  you  start  from  Sp nkane)* 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  was  in  the  Hiilyard  yard  at  Spokane  yard  on 
December  6.  I  was  in  Glasgow  yard  on  December  8.  I  was  in  the 
Minot  yard  on  December  9.  I  was  in  the  Grand  Forks  yard  on  Decem- 
ber 10  and  15 — both  dates.  I  was  in  the  Larimore  yard  on  December 
10;  Devils  Lake  on  December  13;  Crookston  on  December  14. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  go  to  the  delays  to  locomotives.  How  did  you 
get  this  record  of  delayed  locomotives? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  went  into  the  roundhouse  and  copied  from  the 
records  hanging  up  in  the  roundhouse,  hanging  up  there  public  to  any- 
body going  in  and  taking  the  trouble  to  look  over  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  record  kept  by  the  road  to  show  delays  to 
locomotives) 

Mr.  Hawley.  It  is  a  record  hung  up  there  and  there  were  probably 
35  or  40  of  them  hanging  there  all  fastened  together. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those  are  railroad  records? 

Mr.  Hawley.  It  is  hung  up  there  and  shows  the  delays  to  the  Great 
Northern  locomotives — hung  up  fhere  for  their  advice. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  kept  by  the  railroad ) 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tell  us  what  delays  you  found  on  those  slips. 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  found  on  November  20  engine  1518  was  eighty-two 
hours  and  twenty-five  miuntes  getting  over  tlie  division.  The  delays 
were  seventy-four  hours  and  twenty-five  minutes.  These  recoras 
don't  show  what  caused  these  delays. 

Engine  1529  was  thirty-five  hours  getting  over  the  division  and 
twenty-one  hours  and  sixteen  minutes  delayed. 


260  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  date  i 

Mr.  Hawley.  The  last  one  was  on  November  21. 

On  December  6,  engine  1536,  thirty-three  hours  and  fifty-five  min- 
utes getting  over  the  division;  delay,  eighteen  hours  and  five  minutes. 

December  6,  engine  1514,  time  gettmg  over  the  division,  twenty- 
seven  hours  and  fifty  minutes;  delay,  fifteen  hours  and  thirty  minutes. 

December  5,  engine  236,  time  twenty-seven  hours  and  ten  minutes; 
delaj'^,  sixteen  hours  and  twenty-five  minutes. 

Engine  1516,  December  3,  time,  twenty-one  hours  and  twenty- 
five  minutes;  delay,  nine  hours. 

November  28,  engine  1524,  time,  twenty-three  hours  and  forty-five 
minutes;  delay^,  fifteen  hours  and  forty-five  minutes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  examine  all  of  the  slips  there? 

Mr.  Hawley.  No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  proportion  did  you  examine  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  just  took  them  out  as  I  came  to  them,  turned  one 
after  another.     I  picked  out  one  here  and  one  there. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  find  all  of  the  delayed  engines? 

Iklr.  Hawley.  I  do  not  suppose  they  were  all  there 

Mr.  Ma-RBLE  (interrupting).  You  did  not  examine  them  all? 

Mr.  Hawley.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  j'ou  find  stock  cars  waiting  at  Larimore,  N,  Dak.  1 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many? 

Mr.  Hawley.  One  hundred  and  seventj'-four  empty  stock  cars, 
sixty-five  of  which  were  double-deck  stock  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  found  stock  waiting  for  shipment  near  there  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  can  not  say  near  there  that  stock  was  waiting.  A 
gentleman  told  me  at  Glasgow,  Mont.,  that  he  had  been  waiting  since 
October  29,  in  order  to  get  sixty  cars  of  sheep  shipped,  and  up  to  that 
time — on  December  8— -he  had  only  received  twenty-two  stock  cars  in 
order  that  he  might  make  the  shipment.  The  gentleman  informed  me 
that  at  the  hotel. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  is  Larimore  from  Glasgow  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  could  not  say  iust  how  far  it  is.  It  is  perhaps,  I 
guess,  4C0  miles.     Possibly  it  is  a  little  more. 

Mr.  Marble.  Stock  cars  400  miles  from  the  sheep  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir.  I  also  found  a  delay  on  a  train— what  they 
term  a  delay.  The  train  crew  was  called  to  leave  at  4.30  on  the  after- 
noon of  the  12th  of  December,  and  they  did  not  leave  until  after  9 
a.  m.  the  13th.  The  crew  was  on  duty  all  of  this  time,  and  then 
started  in  a  blinding  snowstorm  for  Minot,  115  miles  distant. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  why  that  was? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  could  not  ascertain.  They  were  about  to  pull  out 
of  the  yard  as  I  got  down,  and  I  asked  a  gentleman  where  they  were 

foing  and  he  told  me  they  had  been  laying  there  since  the  afternoon, 
believe.  I  also  believe  it  would  be  nothing  more  than  justice  to  say 
that  when  the  train  did  pull  out  of  the  yard  there  was  very  nearly  a 
blizzard  blowing  at  Devils  Lake. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  might  have  delaved  the  starting? 
Mr.  Hawley.  It  might  have  delayed  it  the  niglit  before.     I  did  not 
get  there  until  after  12  o'clock. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  the  fact  that  these  trains  were  a  long  time  in 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  261 

transit  mean  that  the  same  train  crew  were  workinjjj  the  number  ol 
hours  shown  liere  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  When  you  found  a  train  eighty-two  hours  on  the 
road,  does  that  mean  that  the  same  train  crew  worked  eighty-two 
hours  at  a  stretch? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  this  other  train  where  they  were  on  thirty-five 
hours,  that  train  crew  worked  thirty-five  hours  at  a  stretch! 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  so  on  down? 

Mr.  Hawley,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  don't  run  shifts? 

Mr.  HA\n.EY.  No,  sir;  not  between  division  points. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  talk  with  the  men  operating  the  trains  as  to 
the  slowness  of  movement  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Y'es,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  find  them  agreed  that  there  was  a  slowness 
of  movement? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  find  them  complaining  of  the  ovartime  that 
they  were  encountering? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Tliey  complained  that  they  were  compelled  to  be  on 
the  road  a  great  number  of  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  that  general  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  General  with  all  of  those  with  whom  I  talked. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  any  of  them  give  you  their  explanation  of  the 
slowne.ss  of  movement  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  It  seemed  to  be  the  general  consensus  of  opinion  of 
all  those  with  whom  I  talked  that  the  trains  were  loaded  too  heavy ; 
they  could  not  make  speed  enough  whereby  they  could  get  over,  and 
they  were  consequently  delayea  by  meeting  trains  coming  in  the 
opposite  direction. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  find  any  cars  delayed  at  any  place  that  you 
were  in  that  were  delayed  and  had  stood  there? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Not  at  any  place  where  I  stopped.  I  learned  of 
cars  being  delayed  all  the  way  along,  especially  at  the  sidings  between 
Minot  and  Grand  Forks. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  did  vou  learn  of  those  delays? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  learned  of  it  through  talking  with  people  at  the 
hot^l  and  my  observation  of  the  conditions  at  the  side  tracks  as  I 
passed  along  on  the  train. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is,  you  say,  cars  standing  on  the  side  tracks? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  saw  cars  standing  on  the  side  tracks;  yes,  sir.  I 
believe,  as  1  understood,  that  it  was  considered  that  there  was  con- 
gestion all  along  there  on  the  district — cars  which  they  were  not  able 
to  move. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  made  a  specialty  of  getting  the  information 
from  trainmen  as  to  the  cau.ses  of  slowness  or  movement? 

Mr.  Hawley.  All  of  those  with  whom  I  had  an  opportunity  to  talk. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  did  you  talk  with? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  would  not  attempt  to  say. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Oh,  I  possibly  talked  with  ten  or  twelve  crews. 


262  CAR    STTORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  With  ten  or  twelve  crews? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir.  Possibly  there  might  have  been  one  man 
I  got  hold  of  who  might  have  been  a  conductor  or  a  fireman,  or  I 
might  have  got  hold  of  all  three  men  of  the  crew  and  talked  with  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  find  a  difference  of  opinion  among  the  men 
as  to  the  cause  of  the  slowness  of  movement  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  There  did  not  seem  to  be  any  difference  of  opinion. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  all  thought  that  if  the  trains  were  lighter  they 
could  go  faster? 

Mr.  Hawley.  That  seemed  to  be  the  consensus  of  opinion. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  make  an  examination  of  the  train  sheets 
brought  in  here  by  various  witnesses  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  to  what  does  this  memorandum  relate? 

Mr.  Hawley.  This  memorandum  refers  to  districts  over  which  Mr. 
Philbin  is  superintendent,  I  believe,  and  the  trains  between  Superior 
and  Cass  Lalce. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  trains  between  Superior  and  Cass  Lake? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  determined  the  running  time  of  freight 
trains  shown  on  those  train  sheets  between  Superior  and  Cass  Lake? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Give  us  some  that  you  found. 

Commissioner  Lane.  For  what  days? 

Mr.  Marble.  What  days  did  you  examine  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  endeavored  to  find  a  day  where  there  was  a  large 
number  of  trains  on  the  train  sheet,  aside  from  the  ore  trains.  I  did 
not  attempt  in  any  way  to  check  ore  trains,  and  as  I  came  to  a  sheet 
that  had  a  large  number  of  trains  aside  from  ore  trains,  then  I  took 
that  sheet  and  checked  up  the  time  to  show  how  long  they  were 
getting  over  the  road.  There  is  October  23,  15,  31,  29,  27,  22,  Novem- 
ber 29,  27,  20,  19,  16,  and  6.  Those  were  all  througti  the  month  of 
November  and  the  first  ones  in  October.  It  was  a  pretty  hard  task. 
I  did  not  attempt  to  go  into  the  next  month.  I  used  October  and 
November  and  the  sheets  were  there  for  other  months,  and  I  did  not 
attempt  to  go  into  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  pick  for  a  sheet  showing  the  slowest  running 
time? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  simply  picked  up  the  sheets  which  had  the  greatest 
number  of  trains  on.  Sometimes  I  got  fooled  on  that,  because  the 
train  would  not  go  clear  through — all  the  way  over  the  division. 
You  would  have  to  look  over  the  train  sheet  to  find  that  out.  I 
simply  picked  out  the  train  sheets  where  I  found  a  large  number  of 
trains  on  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those  perhaps  showed  a  slow  movement  because  of 
the  large  number  of  trams  and  meeting  points? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir;  possiblv. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  those  days  what  did  you  find  the  quickest  time 
of  any  of  those  trains  to  be? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  found,  as  between  Cass  Lake  and  Superior,  on 
October  23,  that  the  quickest  time  was  fourteen  hours  and  forty 
minutes.     On  October  15 

Mr.  Marble.  Just  a  minute.  What  was  the  slowest  time  on  that 
day? 


OAB  SHOBTAGB.  2G3 

Mr.  Hawley.  The  slowest  time  that  they  made  that  day  was 
twenty-six  hours.  On  October  15  the  shortest  time  was  eleven  hours 
and  fifty  minutes,  and  the  longest  time  was  sixteen  hours  and  fifteen 
minutes. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  distance  is  164  miles? 

Mr.  Hawley.  One  hundred  and  sixty-four  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  Without  stopping  to  read  all  of  those,  what  did  you 
fintl  on  those  days  the  speed  made  by  those  trains  to  be — the  aver- 
age— about  how  many  miles  an  hour  did  those  trains  run? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Some  of  those  trains  were  turned  on  different  days. 
On  October  23  there  were  six  trains  which  averaged  a  little  over 
nineteen  hours  over  the  division,  or  about  8§  miles  per  hour.  Those 
are  trains  between  Cass  Lake  and  Superior. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  that  about  the  time  they  had  very  bad 
weather  up  there  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  do  not  know.     That  was  October  23. 

Commissioner  Lane.  October  23? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  That  was  before  the  blizzard,  was  it  not? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Figuring  the  mileage  made  of  the  entire  number  of 
trains  over  the  division,  it  would  make  eight  trains  which  passed 
over  on  that  day,  averaging  eighteen  hours  and  forty-seven  minutes 
over  145  miles,  taking  tne  average  number  of  miles  for  the  number 
of  trains  moved,  winch  would  have  been  eighteen  hours  and  forty- 
seven  minutes,  over  a  145-mile  division. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  as  to  the  other  days,  can  you  state  the  average 
for  all  of  those? 

Mr.  Hawley.  On  October  15  there  were  seven  trains,  averaging 
fourteen  hours  and  thirty-nine  minutes  in  getting  over  164  miles  for 
that  division. 

There  were  9  trains  on  that  day,  averaging  13  hours  and  54  minutes, 
over  a  little  over  150  miles — averaging  that  number  of  miles  for  the 
entire  number  of  trains  on  the  division,  during  that  day,  and  they  run 
along — I  think,  one  day,  if  I  remember  rightly,  in  my  ngures,  thev  got 
down  a  little  less — down  very  close  to  13  hours  going  over  the  division. 

Mr.  Marble.  Some  of  them  were  much  longer  than  that? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Some  of  them  were  much  longer  than  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  the  average  would  be  down  to  that? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  examine  some  delay  reports  from  the  North- 
em  Pacific  road  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  division  were  those  sheets  from? 

Mr.  ILvwley.  From  the  division  points,  Staples  and  F'argo.  Tliose 
are  the  train-conductors'  delay  reports,  showing  the  actual  cause  of 
the  delays  between  the  different  stations  from  where  they  started  to 
where  they  lay  up  their  train. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  getting  the  reports  of  the  delays  of  the  trains,  how 
many  of  those  did  you  examine? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  went  through  two  or  three  months  and  I  endeav- 
ored to  examine  every  day,  and,  after  I  had  been  at  it  for  a  number  of 
hours,  I  found  the  task  was  too  long,  and  I  simply  picked  out  those  at 
random  for  October  and  November,  and  it  showed  I  picked  out  the 
actual  delay  and  figured  it  up. 


264  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  selected  those  showing  the  most  or  the 
least  delays? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  picked  those  at  random.  I  would  turn  to  a  sheet 
and  take  one  and  follow  it  out. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tell  us  what  you  found. 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  found,  on  October  1,  a  train  from  Staples  to  Fargo 
fifteen  hours  and  twenty  minutes  getting  over  the  division.  Two 
hours  and  a  half  of  that  was  in  making  up  the  train.  Four  hours  and 
forty  minutes  of  the  above  track  obstructions.  One  hour  and  thirty 
minutes  meeting  trains.  Winnipeg  to  Staples,  83  miles,  seventeen 
hours  and  forty-five  minutes  gettmg  over* that  distance ;  one  hour  and 
forty-five  minutes  making  up  train;  four  hours  and  forty  minutes 
waiting  for  orders — the  total  delaj'  in  that  day  was  ten  hours. 

I  picked  out  several  of  those  days  in  there  and  amongst  them  was 
one,  Fargo  to  Staples,  108  miles,  twenty-five  hours  and  five  minutes 
in  getting  over  the  division;  meeting  trains,  six  hours  and  fifteen 
minutes;  waiting  for  bills,  one  hour  and  twenty  minutes;  waiting  for 
orders,  three  hours  and  twenty  minutes;  waiting  for  helper,  one  hour 
and  ten  minutes;  waiting  for  road  engine,  two  hours  and  five  minutes; 
miscellaneous,  four  hours  and  thirty  minutes.  Those  are  telegraphic 
reports  which  I  picked  out  that  was  on  account  of  their  being  blocked 
by  trains  and  inability  to  do  any  work  at  the  station,  which  caused 
them  considerable  delay. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  those  are  of  the  same  general  character,  about  all 
of  them? 

Mr.  Hawley.  This  twenty-five  hour  and  five  minute  train,  the 
conductor  has  noted  on  the  book,  two  hours  and  twenty  minutes  on 
account  of  engine  not  being  able  to  handle  the  train ;  two  hours  and 
fifty  minutes  by  engine  running  for  water  and  waiting  for  steam  after 
coming  back;  thirty  minutes  reducing  train;  three  hours  and  twenty 
minutes  for  orders;  called  for  orders  at  8.45  a.  m. ;  received  same, 
11.15,  and  got  running  orders,  12.20  p.  m. — nearly  four  hours  waiting 
for  those  orders.  Here  is  one:  Fargo  to  Staples,  108  miles,  seven 
hours  and  twenty-five  minutes;  total  delays,  three  hours  and  twenty- 
five  minutes. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  train  actually  ran  about  25  miles  an  hour? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Here  is  one  on  November  3,  eight  hours  and  thirty 
minutes;  total  delays,  four  hours  and  thirty-five  minutes.  Here  is 
one  on  November  22,  ten  hours  and  fifty-five  minutes;  total  delays, 
six  hours  and  five  minutes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Going  how  many  miles? 

Mr.  Hawley.  One  hundred  and  eight. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  train  was  going  about  25  miles  an  hour,  when 
it  traveled? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  last  testimony  you  give  is  taken  from  the  docu- 
ments furnished  by  the  railroad  witnesses  that  have  been  called  here 
and  you  have  taken  the  sheets  furnished  by  them  and  examined 
them? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  BiTNN.  Mr.  Hawley,  did  you  observe  the  double  track  under 
construction? 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  265 

Mr.  Hawlet.  I  was  not  on  the  Northern  Pacific  at  all.  I  simply 
took  those  records — have  checked  those  records;  that  is  all.  1  have 
not  been  over  the  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Where  did  you  get  the  records? 

Mr.  Hawley.  They  were  brought  in  here  by  your  train  dispatcher. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Oh,  I  thought  you  went  over  the  road. 

Mr.  Hawley.  No. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  all. 

Mr,  Marble.  The  testimony  was  simply  taken  from  the  train  sheets? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Beqo.  At  the  time  you  were  in  Spokane,  did  you  learn  of  these 
serious  washouts  at  the  west  end  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  have  not  been  out  there  for  nearly  three  weeks — 
about  that. 

Mr.  Bego.  Naturally  the  traffic  was  congested  at  Spokane? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Beog.  And  at  all  stations? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Beog.  That  might  well  account  for  the  number  of  cars  you  saw 
in  Spokane  yard,  might  it  not? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Oh,  yes;  I  do  not  question  that. 

Mr.  Beog.  At  the  various  places  you  stopped  that  was  what  you 
you  understood — you  spent  a  day  or  less  than  a  day  at  each  place  ? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Beog.  You  do  not  know  just  how  long  any  car  had  been  on  the 
sidetrack? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  simply  have  hearsay  to  me. 

Mr.  Bego.  You  simply  saw  that  some  cars  were  on  the  sidetrack  at 
the  time  you  passed? 

Mr.  Hawley.  The  cars  were  there  in  the  yards.  I  made  an  account 
of  them.  The  only  actual  delay  v  hich  I  know  of,  or  at  least  which  I 
was  told  was  positive  of  cars  laying  on  the  track,  was  some  cars  out  at 
Niagara,  N.  Dak.,  and  that  information  came  to  me  from  two  or  three 
traveling  men,  of  cars  laying  there. 

Mr.  Bego.  You  saw  stock  cars  at  Larimore? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Beog.  You  do  not  know  whether  the  cars  were  there  for  imme- 
diate loading  or  not? 

Mr.  Hawley.  No,  sir.  I  am  speaking  of  double  dock  stock  cars, 
of  those  in  particular,  because  complaint  was  made  to  me  by  the 
gentleman  or  Gla-sgow  that  he  had  oeen  unable  to  get  double  deck 
stock  cars. 

Mr,  Bego.  For  all  you  know  the  cars  might  have  been  on  the  way? 

Mr.  Hawley.  For  all  I  know  the  cars  might  have  been  on  the  way. 

Mr.  Bego.  The  enonne  delays,  which  you  took  from  the  record, 
you  would  say  that  the  sheet  which  showed  a  delay  to  the  engine  of 
eighty  hours  meant  the  crew  on  duty  eighty  hours? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bego.  Would  that  follow  that  the  train  was  left  there  at  the 
station  and  the  crew  went  to  bed  for  twelve  hours,  that  they  were 
still  on  duty? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  would  not  consider  it  that  way.  The  engine  crew 
would  not  be  considered  delayed  if  they  laid  up  twelve  hours. 


266  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Begg.  Yet  they  may  have  laid  up  at  some  station  for  twelve 
or  more  hours? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Then  it  would  not  appear  as  delay.  If  they  had 
laid  up  it  would  not  appear  as  delay? 

Mr.  Begg.  Why  not?  The  engine  had  not  completed  its  run 
until  that  number  of  hours? 

Mr.  IIawley.  Then,  if  they  had  done  that,  they  would  have  started 
in  on  the  next  day  and  showed  the  delay  from  where  they  started. 

Mr.  Begg.  Why  would  they;  don't  it  depend  on  the  system  in  use 
on  that  road? 

Mr.  Hawley.  That  delay  would  not  appear  for  two  days,  where 
it  had  taken  place  on  one,  or  at  least  if  they  were  working. 

Mr.  Begg.  1  want  to  call  your  attention  to  that,  because  as  a  mat- 
ter of  fact  that  crew  did  lay  up  and  go  to  bed. 

Mr.  Hawley.  Possibly  they  did.     I  would  not  say. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  were  in  North  Dakota  during  tne  season  of  the 
blizzards,  when  the  blizzards  were  raging? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  was  in  Devils  Lake  when  there  was  a  severe  storm 
on  the  road. 

Mr.  Begg.  I  presume  you  saw  the  effects  of  the  blizzards  when  you 
came  through — snowdrifts? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  did  not  see  very  many  drifts  until  the  recent 
snowstorm,  within  the  past  week. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  came  in  from  Crookston  on  your  way  back? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  came  in  from  Devils  Lake. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  do  not  know  whether  the  engine  delays  at  Crook- 
ston were  due  to  the  blizzards,  or  what  caused  them? 

Mr.  Hawley.  No;  I  simply  know  that  the  gentleman  told  me  that 
trains  were  delayed  there  because  they  had  no  engines  to  move  them. 

Mr.  Begg.  Now,  you  say  the  train  men  told  you  the  cars  were 
delayed  because  they  had  no  engines  to  move  them,  and  also  they 
told  you  if  they  would  only  load  the  train  lighter  they  would  move 
cars  better? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  think  you  misunderstood  me.  I  do  not  think  I 
stated  that  the  train  men  told  me  that.  I  said  the  train  men  told  me 
the  trains  were  delayed  because  they  had  no  engines  to  move  them. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  say  they  told  you  they  could  move  trains  better  if 
they  loaded  the  engines  lighter? 

Mr.  Hawley.  Yes,  sir;  I  believe  that  is  the  consensus  of  opinion. 

Mr.  Begg.  In  fact,  if  fifty  trains  were  loaded  with  twenty  cars, 
would  not  they  only  haul  half  as  much  as  if  they  were  loaded  with 
forty? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  do  not  feel  disposed  to  go  into  the  discussion  and 
consideration  of  that  matter.  I  prefer  to  leave  that  to  the  operating 
officials. 

Mr.  Begg.  In  checking  over  this  train  movement  over  the  line 
which  runs  from  Crookston  into  Duluth,  you  have  a  statement  of  the 
time  consumed  on  train  movement  from  Cass  Lake  to  Superior. 
Have  you  noticed  whether  the  tonnage  had  any  effect  upon  the 
time  made  by  the  trains? 

Mr.  Hawley.  I  did  not  go  into  it  that  far. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  do  not  know  anything  about  the  lighter  trains  and 
that  there? 

'Mi.  Hawley.  That  might  have  been  the  way;  yes,  sir. 


CAB  SHORTAGE. 


267 


Mr.BEOG.  That  is  all. 
Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 
(The  witness  was  excused.  ) 

(The  papers  above    referred    to,  in  Mr.  Ilawley's  testimony,  are 
received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1 — Hawley. ") 
Mr.  Marble.  I  will  call  Mr.  Winter. 

G.  B.  Winter,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified  as 
follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  name? 

Mr.  Winter.  G.  B.  Wmt^r. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  do  you  reside  1 

Mr.  Winter.  Salt  Lake  City,  Utah. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  in  the  employ  of  the  Interstate  Com- 
merce Commission  as  a  safety-appliance  inspector,  are  you? 

Mr.  Winter.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble.  How  long  have  you  been  employed? 

Mr.  Winter.  Nearly  two  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  previous  to  that  what  was  your  employment? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  was  employed  in  the  train  service — a  railroad  man. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  years? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  have  had  about  ten  years  train  experience.  And, 
included  in  that  experience,  I  was  a  fireman  in  yard  work,  and  also  a 
brakeman  in  different  parts  of  the  country  on  different  roads. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  recently  find  yourself  transferred  to  this  car- 
shortage  investigation  ? 

Mr.  Winter.   Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  what  point? 

Mr.  W^iXTER    Spokane,  Wash. 

And  you  came  from  Spokane,  Wash.,  to  this  city  on 


Mr.  Marble. 
what  road  ? 
Mr.  Winter. 
Mr.  Marble. 
Mr.  Winter. 
Mr.  Marble. 
Mr.  Winter. 


The  Northern  Pacific. 

Observing  the  conditions  as  well  as  you  could  ? 
Yes,  sir. 

From  this  point  you  returned  to  what  city? 
I  went  back  over  the  Northern  Pacific  as  far  as  James- 
town and  again  returned  to  Minneapolis. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  like  Mr.  Hawley  you  talked  with  the  train 
crews,  as  far  as  you  could  ? 

Mr,  Winter.  Yes,  sir.     With  quite  a  number  of  them. 
Mr.  Marble.  And  observed  conditions? 
Mr.  Winter.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble,  Did  you  see  many  train  crews? 
Mr,  Winter,  Quite  a  number. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  your  talk  with  those  train  crews,  did  you  endeavor 
to  get  their  idea  of  the  causes  of  the  slowness  of  the  movement  of 
freiffht? 

Mr,  Winter.  I  made  a  special  effort  to  do  so. 
Mr.  Marble.  How  many  did  you  so  talk  with  ? 
Mr,  W^inter,  I  have  not  kept  track  of  the  crews,     I  should  judge  I 
talked  with  twenty  different  men  who  wore  in  the  train  service, 
including  engineers,  brakemen,  conductors,  and  operating  officials, 
such  as  yard  masters,  train  masters,  etc. 


268  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr,  Marble.  Did  you  find  them  agreed  as  to  the  cause  of  the  slow- 
ness of  movejiient? 

Mr.  Winter.  There  was  a  general  idea.  They  all  had  practically 
the  same  idea  with  reference  to  the  trouble. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  did  they  say  was  the  cause? 

Mr.  Winter.  Well,  most  generally  it  was  that  the  trains  were  on 
the  road  too  long. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why? 

Mr.  Winter.  The  trains  were  too  large. 

Mr.  Marble.  Too  heavy? 

Mr.  Winter.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  they  were  made  lighter  that  more  freight  would  be 
moved  ? 

Mr.  Winter,  That  remark  was  not  put  in  that  way — if  the  trains 
were  made  lighter  they  could  get  over  the  road  better — better  time 
could  be  made.  In  that  remark  they  did  not  say  anything  about  the 
amount  of  tonnage  to  be  liauled. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you,  at  a  certain  point — at  Jamestown — did  you 
find  a  number  of  empties — box  cars  empty  standing  on  the  track  ? 

Mr.  Winter.  There  were  about  forty-three  cars  m  one  string. 

Mr.  Marble.  Large  cars? 

Mr.  Winter.  Nearly  all  of  them  80,000  capacity.  Some  of  them, 
however,  were  70,000;  and  one  or  two  60,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  mean  70,000  ? 

Mr.  Winter.  Yes,  sir;  70,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  are  large  cars  also? 

Mr.  Winter.  When  they  first  came  out  I  guess  thej  were  called 
furniture  cars.  Now  they  are  denominated  large  size  box  cars; 
80,000  capacity. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  learn  from  the  marks  how  long  the  cars  had 
been  standing  there  ? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  did;  yes,  sir;  the  cars  showed  the  dates  they  were 
emptied 

Mr,  Marble.  And  you  say  that  was  when? 

Mr.  Winter.  On  the  15th  day  of  December. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  subpoena  the  train  dispatcher  to  come  over? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  dia;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  asked  him  to  bring  the  delay  reports. 

Mr.  Winter.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  ask  him  to  bring  reports  covering  those  two 
dates  ? 

Mr.  Winter.  No  ;  I  asked  him  to  bring  reports  for  the  10th  and  15th 
of  the  month,  to  show  that  the  cars  were  emptied  at  the  time  the 
mark  was  on  the  cars,  and  also  the  day  that  I  saw  them  there,  to  show 
that  the  cars  laid  in  the  yards  the  time  intervening. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  called  for  another  delay  report  than  this  one? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  called  for  the  date  which  shows  the  marks  on  the 
cars.  I  think  I  called  for  the  10th  and  15th.  Yes,  sir;  I  wanted  to 
show  the  10th  and  15th. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  compared  the  numbei-s  with  yours? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  checked  the  numbers  of  the  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  find  those  cars  had  been  standing  there  the 
length  of  time  the  marks  indicated  ? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  269 

Mr.  WiNTEE.  Yes,  sir;  and  some  of  them  longer.  The  records  show 
them  there  on  the  10th  and  also  on  the  15th. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  on  these  delay  reports  did  you  find  the  record 
there  of  freight  delays — of  loaded  and  em})ty  cars  in  that  yard? 

Mr.  Winter.  Quite  a  number. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  these  are  the  reports? 

Mr.  Winter.  Yes,  sir;  those  reports  were  handed  nic  by  the  train 
dispatcher  from  Jamestown. 

Mr.  Marble.  Brought  by  him  here  in  response  to  a  subpoena? 

Mr.  Winter.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  check  shows  the  cars  on  hand  at  Jamestown  on 
December  1»5,  giving  the  numbers  of  the  cars  and  the  contents,  the 
kind,  the  length,  capacity,  date  arrived  at  station,  the  destination, 
the  total  days  at  the  station,  as  follows:  Nine  cars  of  coal  standing 
two  days,  one  car  three  days,  a  car  of  wheat  four  days,  a  loaded  car 
which  seemed  to  be  building  material  eleven  days,  several  cars  of 
sand  nine  days.     What  are  tnose  next? 

Mr.  Winter.  A  car  of  plaster. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  car  or  plaster  nine  days,  and  so  on— wheat  nine 
days — and  you  dave  summed  up  in  this  memorandum  what  you  found 
on  these  two  slips? 

Mr.  Winter.  Yes,  sir;  I  checked  them  off  generally.  I  did  not 
have  the  necessary  time  to  take  each  one.  I  just  made  a  general 
average.     They  show  for  those  dates  on  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tell  us  what  you  found  as  a  summing  up  of  that. 

Mr.  Winter.  The  loaded  cars  at  Jamestown,  from  the  records, 
are  shown:  Flour  in  the  yard,  eight  days;  car  of  plows,  in  the  car,  four 
days;  car  of  material,  seventeen  days;  trucks,  fourteen  days;  flour, 
thirteen  days;  flour,  twelve  days;  pipe,  eieht  days;  wheat,  eight  days; 
wheat,  twenty-two  days;  wheat,  fifteen  aays;  wheat,  fourteen  days; 
and  wheat,  four  days. 

The  empty  cars  for  Jamestown  show  that  they  were  delayed  in  the 
yard  three  days,  six  days,  eleven  days,  nine  days,  six  days,  etc. 
There  is  quite  a  Uttle  of  the  record  here  on  that,  if  you  want  to  go 
into  detail  about  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  do  not  think  it  is  necessary  to  do  that.  You  simply 
summed  up  what  you  found  on  those  reports  ? 

Mr.  Winter.  \  ou  can  check  in  anywhere  there.  There  is  one  sev- 
enteen days.     You  can  open  the  reports  anywhere. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  simplv  opened  them  up  at  random? 

Mr.  Winter.  Yes,  sir.  Yhere  is  one  six,  there  is  one  eight,  there  is 
one  twelve,  there  is  one  two  days,  nine  days,  two  days,  eight  days,  two 
days,  fifteen  days.     That  is  the  way  they  go  on  the  delayed  list. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  there  a  blizzard  at  this  time  at  that  point? 

Mr.  Winter.  On  the  15th  of  December  we  had  quite  a  severe  storm. 
I  think  it  is  proper  to  say  that  a  few  days  prior  to  that  I  came  from 
there — four  or  five  days  before — and  I  think  they  had  considerable 
snow.     I  believe  it  was  about  the  10th. 

Mr.  BuNN.  It  was  pretty  stormy  up  in  North  Dakota  when  you 
were  there,  was  it  not? 

Mr.  Winter.  Quite  so. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Had  been  for  some  little  time  prior? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  came  over  from  Billings,  and  stopped  along  the  line 
and  it  was  very  cold,  and  they  had  had  some  snow — quite  a  little  snow. 


270  OAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  BuNN.  When  you  spoke  of  a  string  of  empty  cars  there,  which 
were  marked  the  9th,  and  you  saw  them  on  the  15th? 

Mr.  Winter.  On  the  15th;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  you  know  where  thev  were  made  empty,  whether 
they  were  not  made  empty  at  some  other  station  and  had  been  just 
brought  in  ? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that.  The  record  shows  they 
were  empty  on  the  10th.  I  would  judge  they  were  made  empty 
there. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Might  not  they  have  been  made  empty  at  some  near  by 
point  and  brought  down  there  ? 

Mr.  Winter.  Possibly. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  do  not  know? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  have  said  the  men  expressed  opinion  that  trains 
would  go  very  much  faster  if  they  were  lighter  ? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  believe  that  was  the  idea  that  they  wanted  to 
convey. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Did  you  form  any  opinion,  or  did  these  men  express  any 
opinion,  that  lighter  trains  would  move  more  traffic? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  do  not  believe  that  question  was  discussed;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  at  a  point  near  the  beginning  of  your  work  at 
the  west  find  certain  mines  in  trouble  for  lack  of  cars? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  did  at  Billings. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  that  point  nearest  to  that  did  you  find  empty  cars? 

Mr.  Winter.  At  Billings,  Mont. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  did  you  find  the  empty  coal  cars? 

Mr.  Winter.  At  Billings,  Mont. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  mine  and  the  cars  were  at  the  same  point? 

Mr.  Winter.  The  mines  were  near  Billings  on  the  road — on  the 
Red  Lodge  Branch — some  75  miles  from  Billings,  as  near  as  I  could 
get  the  information  at  the  time.     The  cars  were  all  at  Billings. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  talk  with  the  owner  or  manager  of  that  mine  ? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  talked  with  a  member  of  the  mining  firm. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  his  name  ? 
.  Mr.  Winter.  Mr.  Yegen,  of  Yegen  Brothers,  and  he  informed  me 
that  he  had  notified  the  railroad  companies  on  that  day  that  if  they 
did  not  get  empties  down  he  would  have  to  shut  down.     That  he  had 
80  men  employed. 

Mr.  Marble.  Had  they  been  standing  there,  and  how  long? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that.  I  believe  it  would  be  well 
to  explain  there  that  there  was  quite  a  lot  of  beet  service  west  of  there  ;^ 
that  they  were  the  drop-bottom  cars,  and  they  might  have  been  used 
in  the  beet  service.  In  fact  some  of  them  were  loaded  at  that  time  in 
the  yard  with  beets. 

Mr.  Marble.  Cars  of  the  same  sort  and  description? 

Mr.  Winter.  Cars  of  the  same  class. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  cars  might  have  been  on  the  way  to  the  beet 
men,  but  you  do  not  know  the  length  of  time  they  had  been  standing 
there? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  could  not  find  out. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  Winter,  do  you  know  where  Yegen's  mine  is? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  know  only  from  what  information  I  got  at  Billings. 

Mr.  BiNN.  Didn't  they  tell  you  it  was  not  on  the  Northern  Pacmc 
road  at  all? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  271 

Mr.  Winter.  I  believe  that  he  mentioned  that  it  was  on  a  branch, 
and  whether  I  understand  now  that  that  branch  meant  a  branch  of 
the  Northern  Pacific  or  not,  I  could  not  say. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Did  he  not  also  tell  you  that  that  road  to  hi.s  mine  had 
not  been  completed — that  the  cars  could  not  get  in  there  to  it? 

Mr.  Winter.  No,  sir;  he  did  not. 

Mr.  BuNN.  He  did  not? 

Mr.  Winter.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunn.  You  would  not  want  to  be  understood  as  intimating 
that  those  are  not  the  true  facts? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  do  not  understand,  Mr.  Bunn. 

Mr.  Bunn.  You  do  not  mean  to  say  that  those  are  not  the  true 
facts? 

Mr.  Winter.  I  am  not  going  on  the  location  of  the  mine  at  all.  I 
know  nothing,  only  what  I  got  from  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^  ou  found  the  men  complaining  because  the  cars 
were  not  at  the  mines? 

Mr.  Winter.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

(The  papers  referred  to  above  in  Mr.  Winter's  testimony  are 
received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1 — Winter.") 

The  witness  was  excused. 

Mr.  Bunn.  I  want  to  ask  Mr.  Horn  one  question.  (Addressing 
witness:)  Mr.  Horn,  do  you  know  where  Mr.  Chris.  Yegen's  mine,  is 
located  ? 

Mr.  Horn.  That  is  on  the  Yellowstone  Park  Railroad. 

Mr.  Bunn.  And  not  on  the  Northern  Pacific? 

Mr.  Horn.   No,   sir. 

Mr.  Bu-VN.  Who  owns  the  branch  road  it  is  on? 

Mr.  Horn.  A  man  by  the  name  of  F.  A.  Hall  and  associates. 

Mr.  Bunn.  What  is  tne  comhlion  at  that  point? 

Mr.  Horn.  It  is  just  in  what  you  might  term  semicompleted 
condition. 

Mr.  Bunn.  Are  they  hauling  any  traffic  over  it  now — any  coal 
traffic? 

Mr.  Horn.  They  might  have  hauled,  I  would  say,  a  couple  of  hun- 
dred cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  can  haul  cars  over  it? 

Mr.  Horn.  They  can,  but  it  is  not  quite  finished. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tney  can  take  cars  from  you  and  deliver  to  you  coal? 

Mr.  Horn.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunn.  When  you  have  freight  trains  moving  in  one  direction 
and  light  engines  moving  in  the  same  direction,  do  you  divide  the 
traffic  oetween  all  the  engines  or  do  you  run  part  of  the  engines  light 
and  part  of  the  trains  heavy. 

Mr.  Horn.  We  divide  the  traffic. 

Mr.  Bunn.  That  is  all,  unless  you  want  to  ask  some  more  questions. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

I.  B.  Richards,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified 
as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Richards  is  called  at  the  request  of  Mr.  Bunn, 
and  I  think  I  will  leave  the  examination  to  him. 

Mr.  Bunn.  You  are  car  accountant  of  the  Northern  Pacific  Rail- 
way? 


272  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Richards.  Superintendent  of  car  service. 

Mr.  BuNN.  I  beg  pardon. 

Mr.  Richards.  Superintendent  of  car  service. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  are  your  duties? 

Mr.  Richards.  My  duties  are  to  superintend  the  distribution  of 
cars,  and  to  keep  the  records  of  them,  and  keep  records  of  the  com- 
modity loading,  and  other  different  statistics. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Give  cars  to  different  divisions  and  districts — thait  is 
done  under  your  direction? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Will  you  tell  the  Commission  under  what  working  prin- 
ciple you  assign  cars  for  distribution  along  the  line  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  We  ascertain  the  amount  of  business  offered  in  dif- 
ferent territories  and  prorate  the  equipment  between  those  territories. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  prorate  the  equipments  between  the  different  divi- 
sions and  districts? 

Mr.  Richards.  The  divisions;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Who  subdivides  it  as  between  the  consumers  on  each 
division? 

Mr.  Richards.  The  superintendent  distributes  the  equipment  on 
his  division  as  between  the  stations,  and  the  local  agent  at  each  sta- 
tion prorates  the  equipment  as  between  the  customers  at  such  station. 

Mr.  BuNN,  How  would  he  furnish  cars — divide  them  between  the 
customers? 

Mr.  Richards.  On  the  basis  of  the  business  offered. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Equally  and  proportionately  to  the  business  offered? 

Mr.  Richards.  Except  that  if  one  man  had  a  quantity  of  business 
to  offer,  and  another  a  larger  one,  and  we  had  three  cars,  we  would 
give  the  small  man  one  and  the  larger  man  two,  but  if  we  only  had 
two  cars  we  would  give  each  shipper  one  car,  if  we  had  them. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  aim  to  give  each  one  car,  and  over  that  in  propor- 
tion to  their  shipments? 

Mr.  Richards.  Exactly  so. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  you  know  of  any  system  by  which  empty  cars  are 
sold  to  anybody  by  the  Northern  Pacific  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Would  that  be  tolerated  by  the  officers  of  the  company? 

Mr.  Richards.  Not  if  it  should  be  found  out.  It  might  be  done, 
and  we  might  be  absolutely  unable  to  detect  it. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  have  been  in  close  touch  with  this  question  of  car 
shortage  this  autumn? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  do  you  think  is  the  cause? 

Mr.  Richards.  We  have  been  compelled  to  furnish  more  cars  to 
the  shippers  than  we  could  do  with  the  power  and  facilities  we  had. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Are  you  short  of  power? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir.  We  do  not  have  enough  motive  power 
and  we  do  not  have  enough  facilities  to  promptly  move  all  cars  we 
have  to  furnish  to  the  shippers. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Has  there  been  a  change  in  the  loading  of  cars  westward 
in  previous  years? 

Mr.  Richards.  In  previous  years  we  were  able  to  move  empties 
into  the  wheat  fields  to  a  greater  extent  than  this  year,  and  for  that 
reason  we  could  move  more  grain,  but  this  year  their  conunodities — 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  273 

there  has  been  an  increase  in  other  commodities  to  an  extent  which 
required  us  to  load  cars  in  both  directions,  which  we  have  done,  and 
that  resulted  in  the  slowing  down  of  the  movement. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  has  been  the  result  of  that  as  producing  a  con- 
gestion ? 

Mr.  Richards.  It  has  had  the  efTex't — the  fact  we  had  more  cars 
than  we  could  move  is,  of  course,  the  real  reason  for  the  congestion. 
Now,  the  reason  for  the  delay — longer  delay  in  movement  of  those — 
is  due,  of  course,  to  loaded  cars  in  both  directions,  taking  time  to 
load  and  handle  at  the  same  station  on  the  movement  this  way  and 
repeating  the  same  on  the  other  movement. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Where  is  the  particular  congestion — where  has  it  been 
on  the  eastern  division  of  the  Northern  Pacific  road? 

Mr.  Richards.  At  the  head  of  the  Lakes  terminals.  That,  of 
course,  backed  up,  and  there  is  a  congestion  as  far  back  as  Dakota. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Has  it  been  the  condition  during  a  large  part  of  the  fall 
that  it  was  absolutely  useless  to  haul  cars  into  Duluth,  because  they 
would  not  be  unloaded  there  if  so  hauled  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  It  has  been  a  great  part  of  the  time;  not  all  of  the 
time. 

Mr.  BuNN.  A  portion  of  it? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  are  the  coal  conditions  on  the  Northern  Pacific 
road  according  to  your  information  to-day? 

Mr.  Richards.  There  is  some  shortage  at  some  of  the  points. 
Generally  speaking,  we  have  coal  at  most  of  the  stations. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Have  you  made  up  a  list  of  the  conditions  at  each 
station? 

Mr.  Richards.  I  saw  one;  I  did  not  make  it  myself. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Where  is  it? 

Mr.  Richards.  I  do  not  know  where  it  is. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Are  there  in  the  ofiice  of  the  Northern  Pacific  road 
dailv  reports  of  the  coal  conditions,  which  are  made  every  day  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Are  they  made  and  in  what  office? 

Mr.  Richards.  Made  in  the  superintendent's  office  and  sent  to  our 
office. 

Mr.  BuNN.  And  sent  to  your  office  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir;  information  for  our  own  and  other  offices. 

Mr.  BuNN.  I  won't  spend  much  time  on  this.  I  would  like  to  file 
this.  They  say  in  a  general  way  that  the  condition  is  satisfactory  at 
nine  points  out  of  ten. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  there  is  a  sufficiency  of  coal  at  nine 
points  out  of  ten? 

Mr.  BuNN.  Not  a  long  supply,  but  sufficient  for  the  time  being  at 
nina  points  out  of  ten.  And  I  would  Uke  to  have  the  same  put  in 
evidence. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1 — 
Richards.") 

Mr.  BuNN.  Tliat  is  in  North  Dakota  and  Minnesota?  Both  of 
those  lists? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  have  no  road  rmining  into  South  Dakota? 

S.  Doo.  333,  50-2 18 


274  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Richards.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Now,  will  you  please  tell  us  how  much  wheat  the 
Northern  Pacific  road  has  moved,  as  compared  with  last  year? 

Mr.  Richards.  I  have  a  statement  here  in  per  cents. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  sufficient. 

Mr.  Richards.  From  all  grain  points  east  of  Mandan  2.5  decrease 
from  last  year? 

Mr.  BuNN.  Two  and  five-tenths? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Tell  us  what  has  been  the  increase  in  other  commodi- 
ties? 

Mr.  Richards.   Coal  increased  31   per  cent;    merchandise,   11.6 

f)er  cent;   commodities,  other  than  grain,  14.6  per  cent.     The  total 
oading  east  of  Mandan  increased  10.2  per  cent. 

Mr.  BuNN.  And  the  giain  has  decreased  very  slightly  and  all  these 
other  things  increased  quite  largelj? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  east  of  Mandan — east  of  the 
Missouri  River. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Has  construction  been  going  on — double  tracking 
down  there  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Has  that  embarrassed  the  operation  of  the  railroad  to 
a  certain  extent  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  To  a  certain  extent;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  A  good  many  construction  trains  working  there? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir;  a  good  many  engines. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  has  been  the  condition  of  that  track  with  respect' 
to  being  crowded  with  trains  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  Very  badly  congested  with  trains. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Has  the  companjr,  in  your  judgment,  run  all  the  trains 
it  could  over  the  track,  and  has  it  moved  all  the  traffic  possible  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  I  am  sure  of  it,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  would  be  the  effect  if  they  reduced — decreased 
the  trains  ? 

ISIr.  Richards.  It  will  still  congest  them,  farther  back  into  the 
grain-loading  territory,  and  slow  down  the  movement  so  that  there 
would  be  more  of  these  twenty  and  thirty  day  cars  on  the  line  than 
we  have  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  would  it  have  that  effect — why  would  it  have 
that  effect? 

Mr.  Richards.  Because  I  think  we  would  be  able  to  make  better 
time,  possibly,  but  we  could  not  handle  as  many  loads. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  think  that  an  engine  could  get  over  the 
road  enough  more  times  to  make  up  the  difference  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  No,  sir;  1  do  not  think  we  can  run  them  up  to  the 
time  necessary  to  increase,  and  then  you  would  increase  the  meeting 
points,  and  in  my  judgment  it  would  offset  any  gain  that  might  be 
realized  in  speed  between  the  meeting  points. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  hear  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Pennington  this 
morning  that  when  they  had  a  surplus  of  tonnage  he  took  a  Uttle 
weight  off  the  trains,  eased  the  loading  a  little  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir;  to  a  certain  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Lightening  the  tonnage  does  make  a  difference  ? 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  275 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir;  to  a  certain  extent,  but  to  still  further 
lighten  it  beyond  what  we  do  would  make  it  impossible  for  us  to  move 
as  many  loads  as  we  do  now. 

Mr.  aIarble.  There  is  a  limit  for  the  lightening  process,  where  it 
ceases  to  do  good  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  That  is  it  exactly. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  have  you  lightened  engines  up  to  that  limit? 

Mr.  Richards.  We  think  we  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  you  have? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  think  it  is  the  policy  of  your  road  to  run 
very  heavy  trains  regardless  of  time? 

Mr.  Richards.  It  is  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  not? 

Mr.  Richards.  We  keep  the  tonnage  up  in  order  to  handle  a  great 
volume  of  business,  for  the  reason  that  we  have  an  obligation  to  the 
public  to  do  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  how  the  dolivories  of  grain  by  your  com- 

I)any  to  Duluth  and  Minneapolis  this  year  compare  with  the  business 
ast  year? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  a  statement  to  show  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  deliver  tiiis  year  as  nuich  as  last? 

Mr.  Richards.  Into  Duluth,  I  think,  we  delivered  1,600  more  cars 
than  last  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  have  it  in  busiiels,  please  give  it  to  me. 

Mr.  Richards.  We  do  not  keep  it  in  bushels.  Those  are  the  cham- 
ber of  commerce  figures.  I  think  they  show  a  thousand  bushels  to 
a  car. 

Mr.  BuNN,  Thev  average  about  a  thousand  bushels  to  the  car? 

Mr.  Richards,  '^hat  is  the  way  we  figure  it,  Mr.  Bunn.  I  am  try- 
ing to  get  at  the  figures.  The  records  show  that  on  December  7,  we 
had  put  into  the  head  of  the  Lakes,  1 ,723  more  cars  of  grain  than 
for  tne  same  period  last  year,  and  that  dates  from  August  15, 1  think 
it  is. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  included  in  that  deliveries  made  by  you 
for  the  Soo  railroad  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  The  movement  of  cars  taken  in  by  the  Northern 
Pacific  includes  that  delivered  for  the  Soo  Line. 

Mr.  Marble.  Into  Duluth? 

Mr.  Richards.  Into  Duluth ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  do  you  include  that  in  your  figures? 

Mr.  Richards.  In  our  system  from  the  we^t. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  includes  the  business  of  the  vSoo  road? 

Mr.  Richards.  Everything  on  the  Northern  Pacific  naturally. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  the  ^oo  had  done  even  better,  then,  than  it  has,  it 
would  have  enabled  you  to  show  still  more  remarkable  figures  for 
your  road  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  Of  course,  business  when  through  via  the  Northern 
Pacific — they  have  to  handle  the  cars  that  would  be  docked  on  the 
Duluth  terminals.     I  have  it  for  the  other  lines. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  as  to  the  grain  hauled  out  of  North 
Dakota — have  you  ttiose  figures? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  it  that  way. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  grain  hauled  out  of  North  Dakota? 


276  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  KiCHAKDS.  For  October  and  November,  I  have  it. 

Mr,  Marble.  I  would  like  that. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  mean  by  the  Northern  Pacific  road? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  RiCHARRS.  I  do  not  believe  I  have  those  figures  here,  but  I  can 
have  them  made. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  ask  that  you  have  those  figures  made  up  and 
sent  to  us,  if  it  will  not  take  too  long  a  time. 

Mr.  Richards.  I  will  turn  them  in  here  to-ilay. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Better  make  up  the  figures  and  send  them  in. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  will  be  all  right. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  are  an  old  train  dispatcher,  I  presume. 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you,  in  ordering  cars  for  competitive  points,  dis- 
criminate in  favor  of  competitive  points  as  against  noncompeting 
points? 

Mr.  Richards.  We  do  not.    We  take  special  measures  to  prevent  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  do  you  explain  the  fact  that  competitive  points 
are  better  supplied  than  noncomjetitive  points? 

Mr.  Richards.  I  do  not  know  that  that  is  a  fact. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  elevators,  so  the  evidence  shows,  at  competitive 
points  seem  to  be  able  to  keep  open,  and  those  at  noncompeting  points 
do  not  seem  able  to  keep  open. 

Mr.  Richards.  It  is  possible  that  other  railroads  have  kept  them 
open — certainly  not  the  Northern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Marble.  Perhaps  other  railroads  have  discriminated  ? 

Mr.  Richards.  Possibly. 

Mr.  BuNN.  There  might  be  more  elevators  at  competing  points? 

Mr.  Richards.  Yes,  sir.  They  might  be  kept  open  for  that  rea- 
son.    We  have  a  plan  which  prevents  that — a  plan  to  prevent  it. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

L.  T.  JamMe,  recalled. 

Mr.  Jamme.  In  case  there  may  be  any  misapprehension  as  to  the 
delays  accruing  at  Minneapolis  on  account  of  the  inspection  and  rein- 
spection  on  appeal  in  the  grading  of  oats,  in  the  methods  of  selling 
grain  on  this  market,  I  will  explain  to  the  Commission  our  present 
method  of  handling  grain  here. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Could  you  make  that  very  brief? 

Mr.  Jamme.  Yes,  sir;  I  will  try  to.  I  do  not  think  it  will  take 
over  five  minutes,  Mr.  Commissioner. 

At  the  present  time  samples  are  furnished  either  at  Minneapolis 
or  Willmar  or  Melrose  or  Staples.  These  samples  are  sent  to  the 
inspection  here  and  inspection  is  made  indoors. 

There  was  a  time  when  the  inspection  and  grading  was  done  out 
in  the  car. 

At  the  present  time  we  have  changed  and  better  results  can  be 
secured  by  inspecting  indoors. 

The  State  of  Minnesota  has  charge  of  the  inspection,  as  you  proba- 
bly understand,  and  this  present  method  in  the  inspection,  as  a  rule. 
on  grain  arriving  by  H.'M)  here — the  inspection  is  such  that  grain 
arriving  at  8.30  is  in  the  hands  of  the  commission  men  early  enough 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  277 

in  the  day  so  that  the  grain  goes  on  the  market  and  goes  on  sale  on 
that  day  m  the  market. 

Now,  then,  if  there  is  a  call  for  reinspection  on  a  car,  it  is  done 
immediately,  and  if  there  is  an  apj>oal  from  the  reinspection  that  is 
also  done  immediately,  so  that  I  might  say  that  90  per  cent  of  the 
grain  which  is  inspected  or  which  arrives  on  this  market  for  sale, 
if  it  is  reinspected  and  appealed,  that  is  performed  on  the  same  day 
before  the  market  closes. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  whole  period  of  inspection  does  not 
cover  twenty-four  hours? 

Mr.  Jamme.  No,  sir.  This  morning  I  went  over  a  number  of  cars 
there  for  one  of  the  largest  dealers  here  and  then  fhev  called  for  a 
reinspection  on  a  large  number  and  later  called  for  an  appeal  and 
had  the  result  of  the  appeal  by  11  o'clock. 

I  doubt  if  any  grain  is  earned  over  on  that  account. 

Mr.  Bright.  You  are  referrino;  to  the  testinumy  of  Mr.  Pennington? 

Mr.  Jaaime.  I  do  not  know  whose  testimony  it  was.  I  understand 
the  testimony 

Commissioner  Harlan.  My  understanding  of  it  was  that  that 
related  to  small  dealers.     Are  there  any  men  not  on  your  board? 

Mr.  Jamme.  We  have  two  classes  of  dealers — that  is,  men  who  are 
in  the  elevator  business  and  those  who  are  millers  and  actual  con- 
sumers, and  others  buying  on  commission,  and  others  who  bid  for 
particular  cars  and  resell  them  afterwards.  There  are  all  clas.se^  of 
Duyers  and  I  presume  in  all  these  markets  there  are  tliose  who  buy 
grain  to-day  and  expect  to  sell  it  to-morrow  at  an  advance,  but  I 
believe  that  I  am  safe  in  saying  that  this  year  there  has  been  less  of 
that  than  any  other  time  in  the  past,  at  least  the  statement  was  made 
to  me  b}'  men  who  were  in  a  position  to  know. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Your  statement  has  no  bearing  on  what  Mr.  Penninoj- 
ton  stated  of  the  difficulty  of  the  manner  of  brokers  owning  grain  m 
cars  for  the  purpose  of  making  a  trade,  has  it? 

Mr.  Jamme.  I  do  not  know  whose  testimony  it  was,  Mr.  Bunn,  but 
I  understood  the  statement  was  made  that  grain  was  held  several 
days  endeavoring  to  make  disposition  of  it.  Now,  that  possibly  hap- 
pened in  the  past, 

Mr.  Bunn.  No;  statement  was  made  here,  I  understand,  of  grain 
held  here  several  days  awaiting  inspection. 

Mr.  Jamme.  Oh,  no;  but  the  statement  was  made  to  me  that  there 
was  considerable  delay  on  account  of  the  fact  that  reinspection  went 
over  several  times,  and  I  thought  that  it  was  fair  to  the  business  lie  re 
that  we  should  have  that  made  clear. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  testimony  was,  Mr.  Jamme,  that  the  railroads 
work  seven  days  a  week  and  thirty  or  thirty-one  days  a  month,  while 
the  chamber  of  commerce  closes  up  for  Sundays  and  holidays  and  on 
those  days  delays  are  caused,  and  then  they  have  to  do  the  best  they 
can,  and  that  if  they  could  keep  the  loaded  cars  all  moving  every  day 
it  would  be  much  better. 

Mr.  Bunn.  I  think  that  I  understood  Mr.  Pennington's  principal 
point  to  be  that  these  brokers  would  insist  on  cars  standing  for  them 
to  find  customers  and  to  find  a  better  market,  one,  two,  three,  four, 
five,  six,  and  even  seven  days. 

Mr.  Jamme.  The  facts  are  that  possibly  that  condition  has  been 
true  in  the  past.     I  will  say  right  here  that  the  chamber  of  commerce 


278  CAR    SHORTAGE. 

has  aided  the  railroads  this  year  as  far  as  they  could  in  doing  away 
with  that  practice.  You  understand  our  conditions  in  Minneapo- 
lis— our  demurrajje  rules — and  I  believe  they  are  more  rigorous  than 
they  are  in  possibly  any  western  city  with  the  exception  of  Duluth. 
The  chamber  of  commerce  itself  has  done  as  much  as  possible  to  aid 
the  railroads  in  the  application  of  their  demurrage  rules  to  get  prompt 
disposition  of  the  cars  as  they  arrive  here. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  has  been  some  delay,  then,  in  furnishing  the 
railways  with  disposition  orders  for  the  cars? 

Mr.  Jamme.  At  times  there  have  been  delays  accruing  where  the 
commission  houses  have  held  the  cars  for  a  day  or  so,  but  I  believe 
that  at  the  present  time  that  has  been  done  away  with  to  a  very  large 
extent. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

G.  H.  Emerson,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified 
as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  name? 

Mr.  Emerson.  G.  H.  Emerson. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  Emerson! 

Mr.  Emerson.  St.  Paul,  Minn. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  with  what  railroad  ? 

Mr.  Emerson.  The  Great  Northern. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  what  capacity? 

Mr.  Emerson.  Superintendent  of  motive  power. 

Mr.  Marble.  Superintendent  of  motive  power? 

Mr.  Emerson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  the  Great  Northern  enough  engines? 

Mr.  Emerson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  consider  you  are  short  of  engines? 

Mr.  Emerson.  There  has  been  a  shortage,  due  to  congestion  in  the 
yards  and  terminals,  turning  power,  but  it  has  not  been  general,  by 
anv  means. 

Mr.  Marble,  You  mean  that  power  got  congested  in  the  yards  as 
well  as  cars  ? 

Mr.  Emerson.  Largely  on  the  road,  meeting  and  passing  trains 
and  congestion  in  the  yard. 

Mr.  AlARBLE.  If  you  had  had  more  engines  with  the  present  termi- 
nals and  sidings  could  you  have  done  better? 

Mr.  Emerson.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  trouble  is  not  due  to  the  engines? 

Mr.  Emerson.  Not  due  to  the  power,  in  my  opinion. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  had  had  more  cars  with  present  facilities, 
could  you  have  done  better? 

Mr.  Emerson.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  trouble  was  not  due  to  the  cars,  then? 

Mr.  Emerson.  The  trouble,  in  my  opinion,  is  facilities. 

Mr.  Marble.  Other  than  engines  and  cars? 

Mr.  Emerson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  engines  are  in  an  eflBcient  state,  are  they? 

Mr.  Emerson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  percentage  is  in  the  hospital? 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  279 

Mr.  Emerson.  We  have  6  per  cent  at  the  present  time  in  the  shops. 
Four  weeks  ago  to-day  we  had  4. 
Mr.  Marble,  That* is  all. 
Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  all. 
(The  witness  was  excused.) 

H.  M.  CuRBY,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified  as 
follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  name? 

Mr.  Curry.  II.  M.  Curry. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  general  master  mechanic  of  the  Northern 
Pacific  Railroad? 

Mr.  CiTRRY.  General  master  mechanic  of  the  Northern  Pacific 
lines  as  far  west  as  Billings,  Mont. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  reside  at  St.  Paul,  Minn.? 

Mr.  Curry.  St.  Paul,  Minn. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  enough  locomotives  in  the  work  covered 
by  you  ? 

Mr.  Curry.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  short  of  power? 

Mr.  Curry.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Could  you  do  better  if  you  had  more  engines? 

Mr.  Curry.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  have  you  under  your  jurisdiction? 

Mr.  Curry.  Four  hundred  and  seventy-one. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  more  would  you  say  you  need? 

Mr.  Curry.  I  think  we  could  use  to  very  good  advantage  about 
fifty  more  engines  in  my  territory. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  presume  you  are  ordering  more  engines — buying 
more? 

Mr.  Curry.  We  are  receiving  them  now.  We  have  a  delivery  of 
thirty  engines  that  are  being  set  up  as  fast  as  they  can  be  put  together. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  prepared  to  make  a  statement  that  in  the 
territory  covered  by  you  tiiat  when  the  busy  time  comes  along  about 
the  1st  of  July,  or  August,  next  year,  that  you  wiU  have  enough 
engines  ? 

Mr.  Curry.  That  is  rather  a  broad  statement. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  feel  safe  in  making  that  prediction? 

Mr.  Curry.  Why,  not  if  it  keeps  increasing  as  i*  has. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  proportion  of  the  ireight  offered  can  you 
handle  ? 

Mr.  Curry.  I  believe  we  will  be  in  better  shape  on  my  territory 
with  the  engines  now  being  delivered  for  the  next  vear  than  we  were 
this,  and  those  we  expect  to  have  delivered  in  time  to  handh*  the 
crop.  I  believe  we  will  be  in  better  condition  than  we  have  been 
in  several  years  prior  to  this  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  vour  engines  in  efRcient  repair? 

Mr.  Curry.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those  that  are  working? 

Mr.  Curry.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  per  cent  are  in  the  hospital? 

Mr.  Curry.  I  should  judge  about  8  or  10  per  cent  in  the  main 
shops. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  alL 


280  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  all. 
(Tiie  witness  was  excused.) 

Commissioner  Lane.  Mr.  Bunn,  have  you  some  witnesses  you  wish 
to  call,  or  have  you,  Mr.  Begg? 

Mr.  Begg.  I  would  like  very  much  to  have  Mr.  Hill  called. 
Mr.  Marble.  He  will  be  called. 

James  De  Veau,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified 
as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  name  ? 

Mr.  De  Veau.  James  De  Veau, 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  in  the  grain  business  at  this  city  and  Duluth, 
are  you  not  ? 

Mr.  De  Veau.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  had  trouble  with  delayed  shipments  and 
have  prepared  a  memorandum  of  these  delays? 

Mr.  De  Veau.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  May  we  have  it? 

Mr.  De  Veau.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  These  statements  have  been  prepared  by  Mr.  De  Veau 
at  my  request,  dividing  his  business  according  to  the  railroads, 
showing  the  date  of  each  shipment,  the  number  of  the  car,  the  station 
of  origm,  the  date  of  inspection,  the  date  of  unloading  at  Duluth, 
and  in  general  character  are  like  the  statements  of  delay  which  we 
have  had  from  others. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1 — 
Mr.  DeVeau.") 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  sent  a  man  to  Duluth  to  look  up  those 
cars? 

Mr.  DeVeau.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  he  went  to  the  division  superintendents  of  both 
roads  inquiring  for  cars  in  the  terminals? 

Mr.  DeVeau.  In  the  first  place  he  went  out  and  found  out  where 
shipments  were  and  got  in  touch  with  the  situation  there.  We  had 
a  great  deal  of  trouble  in  getting  the  grain  weighed  there,  looking 
after  samples,  and  spotting  cars,  and  they  were  not  unloaded.  There 
were  several  cars  that  we  could  not  get  delivered.  Finally  we  sent  a 
traveling  man  up  there  who  was  a  railroad  man,  and  he  ran  the  cars 
down — found  out  the  spot  where  the  cars  were,  and  then  he  went  to 
the  agent  of  the  Great  Northern  at  Superior,  and  started  to  tell  him 
his  woes,  and  the  agent  told  him  he  did  not  have  time  to  talk  to  him. 
But  he  came  back  at  him  and  told  him  he  would  have  to  talk  to  him 
either  to-day  or  to-morrow,  and  finally  he  listened  to  him.  He  told 
him  he  had  cars  that  had  been  standing  there  several  days,  and  the 
agent  said  it  was  no  such  thing.  He  afterwards  got  the  paper,  and 
the  boy — the  young  man  in  the  office — told  him — he  told  him  that 
those  were  the  facts,  and  then  he  went  to  the  agent  again,  and  told 
him  that  he  had  better  move  those  cars,  and  he  said  he  would  do  the 
best  he  could  to  move  those  cars.  It  was  impossible  for  us  at  the 
time  to  make  a  list  here  of  those  that  have  not  been  unloaded.  Only 
a  part  of  them  are  unloaded  promptly.  They  lie  there  after  they 
have  been  inspected  from  five  to  twenty  days  before  going  to  the 
elevator,  and  Mr.  Searles  and  Mr.  Spencer  and  other  elevator  men 


CAR   SHORTAGB.  281 

said  that  there  was  not  a  day  in  the  crop  year  when  if  the  railroads  had 
put  the  cars  to  the  elevators  that  they  would  have  been  unable  to 
unload  them.  They  would  have  been  able  to  handle  every  one  in 
Duluth. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

Howard  Elliott,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testi- 
fied as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Elhott,  you  reside  where? 

Mr.  Elliott.  St.  Paul. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  president  of  the  Northern  Pacific 
Railroad  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  am. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  conditions  out  through 
North  Dakota  as  they  have  been  during  this  crop  year? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Moderately  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  familiar  with  the  steps  taken  by  your  road  to 
relieve  the  situation,  so  far  as  it  is  concerned? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  prepared  to  say  that  the  conditions  will  be 
better  for  the  next  crop  year  than  for  this? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  think  they  will. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  feel  saJe  in  making  that  statement? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  do, 

Mr.  Marble.  What  improvements  do  you  count  upon  to  make 
the  change? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Well,  take  the  Question  of  etjuipment  first  called  for 
delivery  during  the  year  1906.  There  are  6,200  cars  called  for  deliv- 
ery in  1906,  of  wmch  2,180  have  not  been  delivered.  We  have 
ordered  77  passenger- train  cars,  all  of  which  have  been  delivered. 
We  have  191  engines  for  1906  delivery,  of  which  34  have  not  been 
delivered.     The  total  purchases  for  this  year  amount  to  $8,700,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  engines? 

Mr.  Elliott.  One  hundred  and  ninety-one. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  delivered  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  All  but  34  have  reached  our  rails.  They  are  not  all 
set  up  yet.  We  have  ordered  for  1907  6,700  freight  cars,  165  loco- 
motives, and  110  passenger-train  cars,  at  an  estimated  cost  of 
$12,100,000.     These  deliveries  are  all  promised  prior  to  the  Ist  of  July. 

We  have  now  underway  improvement,  new  work,  including  addi- 
tional railroads  that  are  Duilaing  between  Portland  and  Spokane — 
double-track  work  and  larger  yards — which  work  we  are  crowding 
as  hard  as  we  can  and  much  of  which  will  be  done  by  this  time  next 
year;  some  of  that  work  will  have  to  go  over  until  1908,  but  the  total, 
counting  equipment  and  so  forth,  win  amount  to  about  $74,400,000. 
We  have  had  as  high  as  9,000  men  on  construction  work  this  sum- 
mer, and  we  are  trying  to  crowd  the  work  if  we  can.  If  we  succeed 
in  getting  our  equipment  delivered  to  us  and  in  accomplishing  the 
new  work  we  have  under  way  we  believe  that  the  situation  will  be 
better  next  season  than  it  was  this. 


282  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  do  you  find  the  life  of  an  engine  to  be  in  the 
freight  transportation  service,  in  years? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  have  known  of  engines  in  the  service  being  in 
condition,  good  condition,  twenty-five  years.  How  long  the  bi^ 
modem  engine  will  last  remains  to  be  seen,  but  if  it  is  kept  in  good 
order  and  the  fire  box  replaced  from  time  to  time,  it  ought  to  L  st 
about  twenty  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  your  engines  that  you  are 
using  now  will  last  that  long? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  think  very  likely. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are,  then,  increasing  your  supply  considerably 
faster  than  the  superannuation  of  engines? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  the  policy  of  your  roads  to  load  the  trains  to 
make  tonnage  records  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  It  is  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Regardless  of  time? 

Mr.  Elliott.  It  is  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  pubUc  is  mistaken  in  thinking  that  is  your 
poUcy  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  do  not  know  what  the  pubHc  thinks.  The  policy 
of  the  Northern  Pacific  is  to  try  to  move  the  maximum  amount  of 
the  commerce  of  the  country  with  the  facilities  at  its  command. 
We  think  we  can  move  more  freight  with  10  engines  with  500  tons 
behind  an  engine  than  if  we  had  400.  It  is  purely  a  question  of 
trying  to  move  the  maximum  amount  of  commerce  offered  between 
the  head  of  the  Lakes  and  Puget  Sound,  which  is  more  than  enough 
to  go  around  at  the  present  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  your  railroad  is  effectively 
organized  ? 

llr.  Elliott.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  different  departments  and  services  are 
working  together  for  the  best  results  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  don't  think  that  the  discipline  is  at  all  laxf 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  To  what  do  you  attribute  the  difficulties  in  trans- 
portation this  fall  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Well,  you  can  run  an  unlimited  amount  of  water 
through  a  1-inch  hose  if  you  have  got  a  place  for  it  to  go  out  at  the 
other  end.  If  there  is  nowhere  for  it  to  go  at  the  other  end,  it  will 
back  and  move  verj^  slowly  through  the  hose,  and  that  is  largely  the 
condition  on  the  Northern  Pacific.  Take  it  at  Portland,  Tacoma, 
Seattle,  the  head  of  the  Lakes,  with  rails  both  ways,  and  whei/you 
have  too  much  traffic,  it  chokes  up  at  the  interior  division  points. 

Mr.  Marble.  Don't  you  think  that  your  road  at  Duluth  snowed  bad 

t'udgment  in  losing  a  portion  of  the  terminal  capacity  about  the 
)eginning  of  September,  in  trying  to  make  repairs,  just  at  the  begin- 
ning of  the  busy  season? 

Mr.  Elliott.  No,  sir;  those  repairs  were  begun  away  last  year,  and 
we  hoped  to  have  them  all  in  and  done  by  the  1st  of  October.  How- 
ever, one  thing  and  another  delayed  us,  and  if  you  have  been  engao:ed 
in  any  sort  of  physical  work — I  do  not  mean  manual  labor — but 


OAB   SHORTAGE.  283 

enjraged  in  tiring:  to  <ret  anythinjr  done  in  the  last  year,  yon  will  find 
all  sorts  of  things  tinning  up  to  make  delay.  One  thing  and  another 
at  Duluth  caused  trouble,  and  then  another  eause  of  the  trouble  is  this: 
We  made  all  plans  to  rebuild  and  improve  a  bridge  so  heavier  power 
could  be  used  on  that  bridge.  The  bridge  was  approved  by  the  War 
Department  at  Washinjjton,  and  we  were  just  ready  to  go  to  work  on 
it  wlien  a  new  chief  or  engineers  at  Duluth  was  a|)pomted,  and  he 
objected  to  the  plans;  so  that  the  whole  plan  had  to  be  changed  and  a 
new  bridge  commenced,  and  instead  of  being  done  next  sprmg,  it,  in 
all  probabilit}',  will  not  be  done  until  about  tne  spring  of  1908.  These 
various  things  interfered  and  are  going  to  come  up  that  nobody  knows 
anything  about. 

Everything  appeared  to  be  all  right  to  build  that  bridge  to  switch 
cars  there,  and  tnen  somebody  in  business,  possibly  the  grain  vessel 
int<»rests,  thought  that  bridge  ought  to  be  changed,  and  although 
the  War  Department  had  approved  the  previous  bridge  it  became 
necessary  to  form  new  plans  for  building  a  new  bridge  and  increasing 
that  expense,  but  even  if  the  Northern  Pacific  got  everything  exactly 
right,  so  that  there  was  no  trouble  on  its  Une,  you  have  got  to  get 
that  stuff  away  from  Duluth  by  vessel,  south  of  St.  Paul  by  rail,  and 
south  of  Portland  by  rail,  and  we  claim  that  we  are  doing  all  the 
work  we  can  as  quickly  as  we  can.  We  are  doing  everytliing  we 
can  in  the  way  of  providing  increased  facilities,  both  in  equipment, 
double  tracking,  grade  revision,  and  making  other  complete  plans 
for  terminals  at  a  number  of  places,  but  that  work  will  take  time, 
and  it  can  not  be  done  in  a  minute. 

As  to  freight  equipment,  we  have  less  than  4  per  cent  of  our  freight 
cars  in  bad  order  at  tliis  present  time. 

As  to  our  locomotives,  what  we  call  back  shop  repairs,  I  under- 
stood there  are  6  or  7  per  cent  of  our  engines  down  in  the  back  shops. 
We  keep  very  accurate  account  of  our  power,  and  I  would  say  that 
we  have  got  15  or  16  per  cent  out  of  commission  at  times.  Some- 
times an  engine  will  be  laid  up  for  perhaps  twelve  hours  in  the  round- 
house for  very  slight  repairs.  We  count  that  being  out,  exactly  the 
same.     Some  roads  only  count  those  in  shops  for  heavy  repairs. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  percentage  of  your  engines  are  out  of  use 
to-day? 

Mr.  Elliott.  As  I  say,  from  15  to  16  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  effect  uj)on  the  traffic  is  the  same  no  matter 
where  they  go? 

Mr.  Elliott.  They  come  back  more  quickly. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Mr.  E!Uiott,  what  are  tne  pecuUar  causes  in  your 
opinion,  of  the  trouble  in  transporting  wheat  to  the  market  tliis  fall 
and  getting  coal  back  into  Nortn  Dakota? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  think  the  chief  difficulty  on  the  wheat  is  that  the 
Head  of  the  Lakes  market  has  taken  a  great<'r  proportion  of  the 
wheat  than  this  time  last  year.  There  lias  been  a  much  larger 
general  movement  of  commodities  out  of  Duluth  and  Superior,  so 
that  there  has  been  a  congestion  of  what  we  call  the  Head  of  the 
Lakes  terminal,  which  has  backed  up  all  the  way  across  Minnesota 
and  North  Dakota  and  even  as  far  west  sometimes  as  Central  Mon- 
tana. I  think  that  there  has  been  no  peculiar  difficulty  about  the 
movement  of  coal  on  the  railroad.     I  think 


284  CAR    SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  BuNN  (interrupting).  Have  you  given  any  directions  about 
the  coal  on  the  Northern  Pacific — the  movement  of  coal  on  the 
Northern  Pacific  to  North  Dakota? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Yes,  sir;  in  the  latter  part  of  June  or  early  in  July 
last  year  I  instructed  representatives  of  the  freight  department  and 
the  operating  department  on  our  road  to  make  every  effort  they 
could  to  induce  consumers-  in  the  country  districts  to  put  in  their 
orders  to  dealers  early,  so  that  we  might,  so  far  a«  possible,  spread 
the  movement  of  fuel  over  the  summer  months  and  not  try  to  move 
it  all  after  the  cold  weather  began. 

Now,  we  all  know,  who  travel  over  some  of  the  Eastern  States — 
especially  New  England,  where  I  happened  to  be  brought  up — that 
there  the  towns  nearly  all  have  coal  yards  and  they  bring  coal  in  all 
through  the  summer  and  they. store  it,  and  the  consumer  gets  his 
coal  in  the  winter  out  of  the  coal  yards,  instead  of  buying  out  of  the 
car.  The  population  of  North  Dakota  has  increased  and  business 
men  to-day  ought  to  move  the  coal  in  and  store  it  in  stock  piles  dur- 
ing the  summer  and  load  it  out  from  the  stock  piles  into  the  wagons, 
rather  than  depend  on  bringing  all  the  coal  from  Duluth  or  St.  Paul 
by  car  and  loading  from  the  car  into  the  wagon  when  they  especially 
need  the  coal. 

Mr.  BuNN.  I  judge  from  what  you  say  it  is  a  fact  that  the  storage 
facilities  in  North  Dakota  are  limited. 

Mr.  Elliott.  Quite  limited  for  coal. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  railroad  itself  don't  accumulate  on  its 
system  coal  in  July  or  June  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  It  has  stocked  up  quite  a  little,  but  the  blizzard 
became  so  great  that  it  was  practically  all  used  up  and  so  cars  have 
had  to  be  put  into  use  hauling  our  own  coal,  coal  which  might  have 
otherwise  been  used  in  the  commercial  trade.  We  have  had  to  the 
1st  of  October  stored  probably  50,000  tons  at  various  division  points 
at  one  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  days  would  that  last — 50,000  tons — pro- 
viding you  were  using  out  of  it  and  not  shipping? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  think  the  50,000  tons  would  last  about  a  month. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Have  you  given  the  operating  officials  of  the  Northern 
Pacific  instructions  to  give  preference  to  coal  shipped  into  North 
Dakota  over  other  traffic? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  think  I  gave  no  written  instructions  about  that, 
but  my  impression  is  that,  beginning  about  the  1st  of  November,  I 
talked  with  our  operating  people  and  told  them  to  get  fuel  out  into 
the  country  and  to  do  everything  they  could.  In  the  past  three 
weeks  we  have  perhaps  gone  even  farther.  We  have  made  a  special' 
effort  to  run  coal  ahead  of  what  we  call  fast  merchandise  trains;  we 
sometimes  put  them  on  passenger  trains  going  along  into  branch  line 
territory. 

Mr.  BuNN.  You  have  in  mind  that  Mr.  Richards  has  issued  orders 
under  your  direction  to  give  preference  to  coal  — about  how  long  ago 
was  that  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  should  say  about  three  weeks  ago,  but  I  would  not 
want  to  swear  to  that. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Those  orders  are  in  existence  now? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Yes,  sir. 


CAS  SHORTAGE.  285 

Mr,  BuNN.  Do  you  know  anything  else  you  could  do  in  order  to 
get  coal  into  North  Dakota  that  you  are  not  doing? 

Mr,  Elliott.  Not  a  thing. 

Commissioner  I^ne.  Has  especial  attention  been  paid  to  these 
telegrams  received  here  and  those  people  notified  by  you  that  they 
coukI  have  the  coal  if  thev  ordered  it  at  Duluthi 

Mr.  Elliott,  Every  telegram,  your  honor,  which  we  have  received 
has  been  given  si)ecial  attention.  We  have  one  man  who  does  not 
do  anj'tliing  else  than  watch  the  mail.  He  has  got  authority  to 
act  personally.  We  have  only  had  two  formal  complaints  from 
mayors  or  boards  of  trade  or  commercial  bodies,  and  we  are  doing 
everything  we  can  think  of  to  the  best  of  our  judgment,  and  from 
daily  reports  made  to  us  about  fuel  each  morning,  we  think  that 
there  is  no  cj;se  of  serious  suffering  up  to  the  present  time,  and  we 
hope  there  will  be  none. 

Commissioner  IjANE,  You  feel  that  you  can  safely  say  that  all 
of  the  demands  upon  your  line  will  be  met — all  the  reasonable 
demands — and  that  there  will  be  no  serious  shortage  of  coal — no 
serious  danger  of  coal  famine? 

Mr,  Elliott,  As  to  North  Dakota  and  Minnesota,  yes. 

Commissioner  I^ne,  Farther  west,  is  there  some  trouble? 

Mr,  Elliott.  I  would  not  want  to  say  certainly  about  the  State 
of  Montima,  There  is  not  enough  coal  being  produced,  perhaps, 
to  go  around. 

Commissioner  IjAne,  Wliere  would  the  supply  for  Montana  be 
drawn  from — ^from  their  fields  or  the  others  ? 

Mr,  Elliott,  It  comes  from  some  of  the  local  mines  in  Montana, 
and  some  from  Rock  Springs  district  in  Utah,  and  some  is  hauled 
all  the  way  across  the  country  from  the  head  of  the  Jjakes,  and  we 
are  trying  to  help  the  situation. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  you  know  anything  about  what  coal  is  worth  in 
San  Francisco? 

Mr.  Elliott.  The  manager  of  the  coal  mines  controlled  by  the 
Northern  Pacific  in  Montana  and  Washington,  at  my  request  made 
a  trip  to  San  Francisco  to  look  up  certain  matters.  He  wrote  me 
from  San  Francisco  that  they  were  selling  coal  at  $14.25  a  ton, 
and  they  were  having  just  as  much  difficulty  in  that  section,  if  not 
more,  tlirn  we  were  having  in  Montana  and  the  States  of  Washington 
and  Idaho;  that  miners  were  very  scarce  there  and  it  was  hard  to 
get  men  to  bring  into  our  section,  and  some  of  those  coal  mines 
could  not  produce  more  than  60  to  70  per  cent  of  their  total  capacity. 
Our  mines,  such  as  we  were  operatmg  ourselves,  were  producing 
very  close,  I  think,  to  100  per  cent,  and  some  of  them  up  to  90  per 
cent.  I  think  that  was  about  the  mininumi  output  at  some  of  the 
others. 

Mr.  BuNN.  The  Northern  Pacific  has  mines  in  the  State  of  Montana 
and  in  the  State  of  Washington  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bi^NN.  And  you  have  been  a  seller  of  coal  to  the  public  from 
those  mines,  have  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  What  l)earint):  upon  the  coal  .supply,  if  any,  is  the  recent 
act  of  Congress  having,  wnicli  f()rl)ids  railroad  companies,  after  the 
1st  of  May,  1908,  from  selUng  coal  and  other  commodities? 


286  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Elliott.  Unless  more  coal  mines  are  opened  up  in  the  State  of 
Montana,  that  State  has  got  to  go  a  long  distance  to  get  coal.  It  will 
have  to  go  to  British  Columbia  or  to  the  Head  of  the  Lakes  and  draw 
coal  that  way.  The  same  thing  is  true  of  the  State  of  Wasliington. 
It  may  have  to  go  to  Iowa  or  Illinois. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  law  is  not  yet  in  effect. 

Mr.  Elliott.  No. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  yet  you  asked  in  September  for  leave  to 

£ut  in  a  low  tariff  to  carry  coal  from  the  Head  of  the  Lakes  out  to 
[ontana  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  On  less  than  thirty  days'  notice. 

Mr.  Elliott,  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  So  that  reason  does  not  apply  at  this  time? 

Mr.  Elliott.  No.  The  State  of  Montana  over  there  in  that  coun- 
try has  a  very  large  amount  of  coal,  but  in  Butte  and  their  own  terri- 
tory they  need  that  coal.  We  have  brought  much  less  into  Butte 
than  ever  before,  and  therefore  that  Butte  market  has  to  be  supphed 
from  othex  sources. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  reasons,  if  I  remember,  that  were  given 
to  the  Commission,  were  that  the  strike  in  the  British  Columbia  mines  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  do  not  know  that  that  applied  at  Butte,  but  we 
were  compelled  at  places  west  of  Butte  in  Montana  to  get  out  coal. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  any  reason  why  the  Northern 
Pacific  or  any  railroad  can  not  operate  coal  lands  to  produce  its  own 
coals,'under  the  Hepburn  Act,  after  May  1  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Not  a  bit. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  can  save  for  yourself  an  unlim  ted 
extent  of  coal  and  get  it  out  of  the  Montana  mines  if  you  have  the 
coal  there? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Yes,  sir;  if  w^e  can  get  miners  enough  to  take  care 
of  ourselves. 

Commissioner  Lane.  If  you  have  additional  property  there  you 
can,  I  suppose,  dispose  of  that  mining  propert}"  to  others  who  can 
develop  it  and  get  out  the  coal  and  ship  it  over  your  line  or  any  otlier 
line? 

Mr.  Elliott.  We  could,  but  possibly  we  would  want  to  save  it  for 
the  use  of  the  railroad. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Of  course,  if  you  wanted  to  do  that,  then  the 
provision  of  the  act  would  make  no  difference. 

Mr.  Elliott.  Not  a  bit.  The  only  effect  of  the  act  will  be  that  if 
we  have  a  surplus  of  output  from  the  present  mines — more  than  the 
railroad  needs — the  act  will  prevent  us  from  selling  to  the  general 
public. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  do  not  suppose  it  would  prevent  you  fropi 
selling  coal  at  the  mine. 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  do  not  know,  as  that  is  a  legal  proposition.  I  have 
never  asked  the  question,  because  it  is  a  long  way  off  until  1908. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  is  not  to  be  suggested  tlidt  there  is  any 
serious  embarrassment  in  the  Northwest  as  to  the  coal  situation 
because  of  the  provisions  of  the  Hepburn  Act,  which  goes  into  effect 
very  nearly  a  year  from  now  ? 

Il3[r.  BuNN.  I  did  not  mean  to  suggest  it  at  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  am  glad  it  was  not  so. 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  287 

Mr.  BuNN.  Have  you  had  any  trouble  about  getting  laborers  for 
the  railroad  work  for  the  last  year? 

Mr.  Elliott.  We  have  a  great  deal  of  trouble  in  getting  laborers 
for  this  new  construction  work,  to  complete  some  of  these  railroads, 
and  wa^es  have  gone  up  very  largely. 

Mr.  BuNN.  There  has  been  some  trouble  to  build  double  tracks 
and  for  construction  in  the  yards? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Double  tracks,  roundhouses,  and  trouble  to  keep  the 
yards  open.  We  have  shortage  in  machinists  and  skilled  people,  and 
also  a  great  shortage  in  car  repairers.  At  one  time  we  had,  I  should 
say,  very  nearly  10  per  cent — 8  \)er  cent — of  our  freight-car  capacity 
in  bad  order,  which  is  a  very  high  percentage.  That  is  down  to  4 
per  cent  now. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Did  shortage  of  labor  delay  any  improvement  work? 

Mr.  Elliott.  It  has  delayed  finishing  what  we  call  the  divisional 
terminal  here  in  Dilworth,  and  it  has  caused  delay  in  connection  with 
the  growth  of  the  business  of  the  east  end  of  the  road.  We  hoped  that 
terminal  would  be  done  the  1st  of  February,  but  it  will  be  several 
months  yet;  and  the  principal  cause  for  the  delay  is  shortage  of  labor 
and  some  shortage  oi  material.  We  are  also  making  manv  minor 
improvements,  like  small  .side  tracks  and  Uttle  changes  in  buildings — 
things  that  are  necessary,  first  for  the  economy  of  transportation  over 
the  road,  and  second  for  better  facilities  at  stations.  Many  of  those 
minor  improvements  have  been  delayed  through  lack  of  labor  and 
material. 

Mr.  BuNN.  It  might  be  of  interest,  and  I  will  ask  you  if  you  are 
prepared  to  state  what  the  Nortliern  Pacific  has  expended  in  the  last 
five  or  six  years  for  improvements  and  new  rolling  stock,  engines,  and 
so  forth  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  have  the  figures.     For  the  year  ending  June  30, 

1903,  we  expended  for  real  estate,  new  branches,  second  tracks,  new 
equipment,  and  improvements  to  the  existing  lines — that  is,  like  side 
tracks,  round  houses,  etc. — $10,536,000;  for  the  year  ending  June  30, 

1904,  $8,886,000;  for  the  year  ending  June  30,  1905,  $6,943,000;  for 
the  vear  ending  June  30,  1906,  $6,941,000. 

\fr.  BuNN.  What  would  have  been  expended  if  you  could  have  got- 
ten the  labor? 

Mr.  Elliott.  A  great  deal  more.  We  have  on  our  books  now  (the 
book  that  we  call  "Authorized"),  being  actively  pushed  as  hard  as  we 
can  push  it — and  this  does  not  take  in  some  of  the  items  mentioned 
when  I  said  we  had  a  total  of  $74,400,000  under  consideration — we 
have  $32,672,000,  of  which  there  is  still  to  spend  $18,626,000. 

Commi.ssioner  Lane.  That  is  your  appropriation  at  the  beginning 
of  this  year? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BuNN.  How  much  of  that  did  you  fail  to  spend  because  of  your 
inability  to  get  labor? 

Mr.  Elliott.  That  would  be  a  hard  question  to  answer,  Mr.  Bunn. 
I  should  sav,  frankly,  quite  a  little  of  it  we  have  not  been  able  to  do 
because  of  lack  of  lalbor — possibly  25  per  cent.  You  understand,  in 
the  $18,000,000  is  included  a  lot  of  equipment,  and  the  delay  in  our 
getting  equipment  from  the  equipment  companies  is  due  to  the  lack  of 
labor  on  tneir  account,  the  same  way  as  our  own.  They  can  not  get 
the  steel  from  the  steel  mills,  and  they  can  not  get  the  steel  in  shape  to 


288  '  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

make  the  locomotive  equipment.  The  shortage  works  all  along  the 
line. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Was  that  all  to  have  been  expended  in 
this  year? 

Mr.  EixiOTT.  We  hoped  so;  yes,  sir 

Mr.  BuNN.  That  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  Commission  is  m  receipt  of  a  large  num- 
ber of  communications  from  chambers  of  commerce  and  coniniercial 
bodies  throughout  the  country,  suggesting  what  they  call  reciprocal 
demurrage.  The  consignee  now  can  hold  a  car  a  certain  length  of 
time,  and  if  that  car  is  not  unloaded  within  that  length  of  time — gen- 
erally forty-ei^ht  hours — he  is  charged  a  certain  amount  per  day  as 
demurrage.  It  is  suggested  by  these  business  men  that  to  remedy 
delays  in  the  delivery  of  cars  there  should  be  Sbmething  in  the  nature 
of  reciprocal  demurrage;  that  when  they  ask  for  a  car  a  reasonable 
time  shall  be  allowed  the  company,  the  shippers  shall  be  required  to 
deposit  with  the  company  the  amount  that  the  tariff  calls  for  on  the 
car  from  the  point  of  origin  to  the  point  of  destination  upon  that  par- 
ticular shipment,  and  that  a  certain  length  of  time  shall  be  allowed  for 
that  railroad  company  to  deliver  that  car,  and  that  if  the  railroad 
company  does  not  deliver  that  car  at  that  time  then  there  shall  be  a 
certain  amount  charged — the  railroad  shall  pay  to  the  shijjper  a  cer- 
tain amount  of  money.  Now,  that  is  suggested  as  a  possible  remedy 
for  what  is  often  called  "car  shortage" — the  delinquincy  on  the  part 
of  the  railroad  in  furnishing  the  shipper  with  the  transportation  that 
he  demands  and  needs.  As  a  practical  railroad  man,  and  the  presi- 
dent of  a  railroad,  I  would  like  to  have  your  judgment  and  criticism, 
if  you  have  any  to  make,  upon  that  plan. 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  do  not  beUeve,  Mr.  Commissioner,  that  would  be  a 
wise  plan.  The  railroad,  to  begin  with,  is  o^vned  by  people  who  are 
very  anxious  to  do  the  maximum  amount  of  business.  They  are 
straining  every  nerve  to  do  that.  They  are  raising  all  the  money 
they  can  to  increase  their  faciUties  to  do  the  maximum  amount  of 
business.  Now,  you  p>enalize  them,  in  the  waj"  you  propose  for  failure 
to  provide  something  in  the  future,  and  instead  of  doing  good  it 
seems  to  me  you  would  do  harm.  It  is  entirely  a  different  thing  from 
penalizing  a  shipper  for  failure  to  handle  a  car  promptly  that  is  given 
to  him,  because  ir  he  handles  a  given  car  promptly  that  helps  the  next 
shipper,  and  the  next,  and  the  next,  and  the  railroad 

Mr.  BuNN  (interrupting).  Do  you  put  the  penalty  or  demurrage 
on  any  car  to  the  shipper  for  the  purpose  of  making  money  or  simply 
for  the  purpose  of  trying  to  get  that  car  unloaded  promptly,  and  pass 
it  on  to  the  next  shipper? 

Mr,  Elliott.  Simply  for  the  purpose  of  trying  to  get  that  car 
unloaded  and  pass  it  on  to  the  next  shipper;  in  other  words,  increas- 
ing the  total  number  of  cars  of  the  company.  You  can  not  make  the 
railroads  buy  equipment  any  faster  than  they  are  buying  it  to-day. 
They  are  doing  everything  they  can  to  increase  their  facilities  and  get 
more  cars.  The  car  works,  ever}'  one  of  them,  are  taxed  to  death. 
It  would  simply  be  an  arbitrary  rule  placed  upon  the  railroads,  and  it 
would  not  do  a  bit  of  good. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Would  you  think  it  was  fair  if  the  railroads 
were  penalized  for  taking  an  unreasonable  length  of  time  in  the  trans- 


GAB   SHORTAGE.  ^9 

portation  of  a  car  ?  Now,  the  ^eat  body  of  the  test  imony  we  have  here, 
for  instance — I  am  illustrating  by  this — goes  to  show  it  takes  ten 
days  and  often  more  to  transport  a  car  250  miles  from  the  point  of 
origin  to  the  point  of  destination.  Suppose  that  the  railroads  were 
allowed  a  reasonable  time,  and  then  were  penalized  for  delay  beyond 
that,  excepting  where  they  could  show  that  the  delay  was  not  their 
fault;  would  that  be  a  fair  kind  of  a  rule? 

Mr.  Elliott.  It  does  not  seem  so  to  me;  tio,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  car  is  delivered,  in  that  case,  into  your 
hands  by  the  shipper.  The  objection  that  obtains  in  the  other  case 
does  not  obtain  here. 

Mr.  Elliott.  If  there  could  be  shown  neglect  on  the  part  of  the 
railroads  to  provide  for  the  future,  possibly  some  spur  of  that  sort 
would  help,  nut  nearly  every  railroad  in  this  country  is  doing  every- 
thing it  possibly  can  to  increase  its  facilities.  The  railroads  of  tfie 
country  are  spending  their  money  as  fast  as  they  can  ^et  labor  and 
material,  and  to  intioduce  anotrier  arbitrary  restriction,  it  would 
simply,  to  my  mind,  make  it  still  more  difficult  to  move  the  com- 
merce of  the  country.  That  is  what  we  want  to  do — move  the  max- 
imum amount  of  commerce. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  do  not  want  to  embarrass  the  railroads 
in  any  manner.  I  think  that  is  the  sentiment  of  the  people  of  the 
countrv.  They  do  not  feel  a  desire  in  any  way  to  embarrass  the  rail- 
roads, but  are  anxious  that  something  should  be  done  that  might,  if 
it  was  practicable,  prompt  the  railroads  to  more  prompt  attention 
to  their  business  as  carriers;  and  it  has  been  testified  by  Mr.  Midgley, 
whose  reports  you  know  very  well,  that  other  methods  should  be 
devised  by  the  railroads  themselves  for  handling  equipment  they 
already  have  by  which  a  considerable  part  of  this  car  shortage  could 
be  avoided.  If  the  railroads  themselves  have  not  developed  their 
methods,  the  suggestion  is  that  it  is  necessary  to  have  some  prompt- 
ing given  them,  some  interest  established,  by  which  they  will  do  it. 

Mr.  Elliott.  Mr.  Commissioner,  the  greatest  interest  in  that 
which  can  be  suggested  to  the  railroads  is  their  own  desire  to  get  the 
maximum  use  out  of  their  property.  I  think  the  railroads,  and  all 
other  men  are  always  anxious  to  get  the  best  use  that  can  be  made 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  am  speaking  of  those  who  are 

Mr.  Elliott  (interrupting).  When  I  say  the  best  use,  I  mean  to 
move  the  maximum  of  tonnage,  which  is  the  best  use  you  can  make 
of  a  railroad  to  move  the  commerce  adjacent  to  its  lines.  We  make 
some  mistakes,  and  we  are  going  to  progress.  I  do  not  believe  this 
reciprocal  demurrage  or  this  penalty  for  slow  time  would  make  the 
railroads  work  anv  harder  to  try  to  improve  the  situation.  That  is 
my  personal  opinion. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Elliott,  do  you  mean  exactly  what  you  say, 
when  you  say  that  the  railroads  are  trying  to  move  the  greatest 
amount  of  tonnage? 

Mr.  Elliott.  The  great  amount  of  commerce  of  the  country. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  some  people  have  the  understanding  that  the 
railroads  are  trying  to  move  the  tonnage  which  will  show  the  greatest 
amount  of  profit  to  the  railroads,  and  that  if  an  increase  in  facilities 
would  be  at  the  expense  of  profits,  even  though  there  might  still  rc- 

S.  Doc.  333,  6&-2 19 


290  OAR   SHORTAGB 

main  a  fair  profit,  they  do  not  make  the  increase,  but  leave  their  service 
at  the  point  where  it  will  give  them  the  greatest  possible  profits.  Is 
that  understanding  correct? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  do  not  know  what  some  people  think,  but  I  do  not 
think  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  increase  your  service  to-day  at  the  cost  of  cut- 
ting into  your  profits,  or  do  you  move  tonnage  in  the  way  that  it  will 
show  the  greatest  profits  t>n  the  tonnage  that  you  move  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  We  do  not  pick  and.'choose  our'tonnage.  We  try  to 
handle  all  that  is  offered.  If  there  is  too  much  offered  to  handle  it  all, 
we  try  to  handle  a  proportion  of  every  kind. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  any  way,  by  increasing  your  expendi- 
tures somewhat,  to  move  more  tonnage  and  show  a  smaller  profit  to 
your  road  but  a  better  service  to  the  public  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  do  not. 

Mt.  Marble.  Did  you  mean  to  say  that  the  railroad  companies  own 
all  the  coal  properties  in  Montana? 

Mr.  Elliott.  Oh,  no,  not  at  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  are  coal  mines  there  that  they  do  not  own? 

Mr.  Elliott.  There  has  been  very  little  coal  produced  in  Montana 
successfully,  except  by  railroad  companies,  I  am  sorry  to  say.  There 
is  not  a  very  large  output  from  general  mines. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  matter  with  the  general  mines  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  could  not  tell  you. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  railroads  all  the  good  coal  land,  then? 

Mr.  Elliott.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  they  all  the  coal  land  with  transportation  facili- 
ties? 

Mr.  Elliott    No. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  they  the  only  ones  that  know  how  to  mine  coal  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  do  not  know.  There  has  been  a  good  deal  of  diffi- 
culty with  a  number  of  public  mines.  What  the  reasons  are  I  do  not 
know. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  railroads  do  not  own  all  the  coal. 

Mr.  Elliott.  Oh,  no.  There  is  a  very  large  amount  of  coal  in 
Montana  that  can  be  opened  up.  Some  of  it  has  been  withdrawn  from 
entry,  now,  by  order  of  the  Government.  There  is  a  good  deal  there 
still,  if  investors  choose  to  go  in  and  open  it  up. 

Mr.  BuNN.  Do  you  not  nnd  that  the  sentiment  in  Montana,  among 
the  people,  regardless  of  statements  to  the  contrary,  that  the  railroads 
have  got  to  continue  furnisliing  them  coal  ? 

^It.  Elliott.  There  is  a  very  strong  feeling  that  way.  We  notified 
the  trade  generally  in  eastern  Washington  and  Idaho,  which  gets  its 
supply  from  our  mines  on  the  east  slope  of  the  Cascade  Mountains,  that 
the  growth  of  the  railroad  business  this  year  was  so  great  that  a  very 
large  proportion  of  our  output  would  have  to  be  taken  for  locomotive 
fuel,  and  we  asked  those  people  to  try  and  get  a  good  coal  elsewhere; 
we  gave  them  that  notice  about  the  10th  of  June,  and  in  spite  of  that 
they  have  had  great  difficulty  in  getting  coal  elsewhere,  and  we  have 
gong  on  furnishing  to  them  to  the  best  of  our  ability  from  our  own 
mines,  although  at  times  it  has  caused  us  to  be  very  short  of  engine 
coal,  because  the  growth  of  our  business  has  been  so  great  between 
Puget  Sound  and  Spokane.  They  would  like  to  have  us  go  on  and 
open  more  mines  and  supply  them  with  coal. 


OAB   SHOETAGB.  291 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  is  not  any  discouragement  that  any- 
one suffers  in  opening  up  a  mine  on  the  line  of  your  railroad  similar 
to  the  discouragements  that  we  developed  in  the  hearings  in  regard 
to  the  Union  Pacific,  is  there  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  I  have  not  followed  the  testimony  in  the  Union 
Pacific  case,  Mr.  Commissioner,  but  we  have  said  to  everj'one  who 
talked  coal  to  us  that  we  would  be  more  than  pleased  if  they  would 
open  coal  mines  on  our  lines,  and  that  we  would  give  them  a  fair  share 
oi  cars.  We  wQuld,  of  course,  have  to  supply  our  own  mines  with  cars 
for  engine  fuel  first,  but  after  that  we  would  give  them  cars  for  com- 
mercial trade  just  as  liberally — give  them  cars  just  as  freely  as  we 
could,  and  save  our  own  coal  for  engine  fuel,  and  a  few  mines  are  being 
opened  up,  but  not  many. 

Commissioner  Lane.  If  you  should  go  out  of  that  commercial  coal 
business,  do  you  not  think  that  it  might  prompt  individuals  to  go  along 
tlie  line  of  your  road  and  open  up  coal  mmes  ? 

Mr.  Elliott.  We  hope  so,  and  that  is  one  of  the  reasons  we  are  grad- 
ually withdrawing  from  the  commercial  trade,  so  that  we  can  say  to 
people  ' '  We  want  to  get  out  of  this  and  we  will  leave  the  field  to  you, 
and  would  be  pleased  to  have  you  take  it." 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

James  J.  Hill,  called  as  a  witness,  and,  being  duly  sworn,  was 
examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Hill,  you  reside  in  St.  Paul,  Minn.? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  president  of  the  Great  Northern  Railroad? 

Mr.  Hnx.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  prepared  to  say  now  that  the  transportation 
situation  along  your  railway,  and  particularly  in  North  Dakota,  will 
be  more  satis^ctory  to  the  people  during  the  next  crop  year  than  it 
has  been  this? 

Mr.  Hill.  Verv  much  more  satisfactory;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  feel  confident  that  you  can  make  that  statement 
and  that  promise  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  will  give  you  what  it  is  based  upon. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  was  what  I  was  going  to  ask  for.  Upon 
what  do  you  base  that  promise  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  Where  the  traffic  is  the  heaviest — I  brought  a  small  map. 
I  do  not  want  to  cumber  you,  but  I  will  show  you  right  here,  if  I  may. 

We  started  in  last  spring  to  build  from  a  point  called  Aneta  to 
Devils  Lake.  That  would  give  an  alternate  line  from  Devils  Lake  to 
Minneapolis  and  St.  Paul;  it  would  be  practically  another  railway, 
and  nearly  equal  to  a  double  track.  We  started  in  also  to  build  a 
double  track  westward  also  from  Devils  Lake  to  Rugby  Junction. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  State  is  that  in? 

Mr.  Hill.  North  Dakota.  Now,  owing  to  the  scarcity  of  labor  and 
material,  but  principally  labor,  that  was  not  finished;  and  while  we 
have  been  pusning  that  line  as  hard  as  we  could  we  only  got  to  within 
12  miles  of  Devils  Lake.  We  expected  to  have  it  completed  to  Devils 
Lake  on  the  Ist  of  September,  before  the  crop  movement,  and  it  was 
not  a  difficult  job,  but  the  men  were  not  to  be  had. 

Of  course,  when  harvest  comes,  the  railways  expect  the  farmers 
to  take  the  labor  from  the  tracks  or  from  the  railway  to  take  care 


292  CAB  SHOBTAGB. 

of  their  crops.  For  years  we  have  made  it  a  rule  to  cany  all  we  can 
into  the  country  as  our  workmen  in  the  spring,  expecting  that  the 
farmers  will  hire  them  away  as  quick  as  they  get  there,  and  it  is  neces- 
sary that  they  should.  This  year  we  employed  as  far  as  we  could, 
and  took  a  ^eat  many  Italians.  We  could  not  hold  them,  although 
we  were  paying  $2  and  $2.50  a  day  for  Italian  labor.  We  could  not 
hold  them  and  we  could  not  complete  that  line  and  the  double-track 
work. 

Now,  we  will  have  that  line  completed  early  in  the  spring.  It  is 
ballasted  and  ready  for  operation  about  to  the  end  of  the  track.  Then 
we  will  complete  the  double  tracking  from  Devils  Lake  west  to  Rugby. 
That  will  take  care  of  the  additional  movement.  It  ought  to  be 
equal,  for  that  portion  of  the  country,  to  tlu-eeorfour  times  our  pres- 
ent capacity.  On  the  double  track  it  would  four  times.  East  of 
Devils  Lake  it  would  be  three  times  the  capacity  that  we  now  have. 
Then,  as  to  .cars  and  equipment.  We  have  provided  a  very  large 
equipment,  but  the  growth  of  this  country  has  been  such — and  I 
would  like  to  call  the  attention  of  the  honorable  Commission  to  this 
point — there  is  no  place  in  the  United  States  or  in  the  history  of  this 
country  where  the  growth  has  been  as  ^eat  in  twenty-five  years  as 
it  has  along  the  line  of  the  Great  Northern  Railway,  and  I  have  got 
the  figures  here. 

Now,  I  want  to  go  back.  Take  it  in  1883,  we  carried  341,539,997 
tons  1  mile;  m  1888,— that  is  five-year  periods— 562,531,432;  1893, 
1,093,692,312;  in  1898,  1,937,955,894;  in  1903,  3,606,835,176.  It 
has  almost  doubled  from  1893  to  1903 — almost  just  about  doubled. 
Now,  in  1906  from  3,606,-835,176  to  4,933,530,997. 

Now,  during  the  same  period  I  will  give  the  number  of  engines 
and  the  number  of  cars.  From  June  30,  1901,  to  June  30,  1902,  we 
increased  from  476  engines  to  511,  or  9.76  per  cent.  From  June  30, 
1902  to  1903,  35  engines,  18.04  per  cent;  from  June  30,  1903,  to  June 
30,  1904,  75  engines,  17.16  per  cent;  from  1904  to  1905  no  new  en- 
gines, for  the  simple  reason  that  the  traffic  fell  off  about  2,000,000 
tons  owing  to  the  crop  failure.  June  30,  1905  to  1906,  82  engines, 
14.89  per  cent;  June  30,  to  December  1,  1906,  120  engines,  or  21.37 
per  cent.     That  is  the  increase. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Hill,  can  you  give  me  the  fibres  from 
1898  to  1903  what  percentage  of  increase  was  in  your  traction  power, 
and  from  1903  to  1906  what  the  percentage  of  increase  was? 

Mr.  Hill.  The  number  would  be  277. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Are  you  speaking  of  the  whole? 

Mr.  Hill.  From  1903  to  1906. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Two  hundred  and  seventy-seven? 

Mr.  Hill.  Would  be  the  number,  or  about  14  per  cent. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Now,  in  that  time,  the  number  of  your 
ton  miles  increased  over  33  J  per  cent. 

Mr.  Hill.  The  number  of  tons  we  moved — you  can  have  the  ton 
miles  or  the  tons  actually  moved.  I  have  got  both.  The  actual  tons 
moved  1  mile — I  will  give  first  one  and  then  the  other.  In  1903, 
16,148,673;  1904,  14,245,129;  1905,  17,535,789;  1906,  19,236,092. 
Now,  the  percentage  of  increase  in  1903  was  21 .99 ;  the  decrease  in  1904 
was  1 1 .787  per  cent;  1905,  increase  23.10  per  cent ;  1906,  increase  9.69 
per  cent. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  You  gave  some  figures  originally  which, 
as  I  understand  it,  were  the  number  of  tons  carried  1  mile? 


OAB   SHORTAGE.  293 

Mr.  Hill.  I  will  give  the  number  of  tons.  I  have  got  them  in  the 
same  statement. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  These  are  the  figures:  1903,  3,006,000,000; 
1906,  4,933,000,000. 

Mr.  Hill.  1906,  4,933,530,000. 

Commissioner  IIarlan.  Now,  then,  is  not  your  proportion  of 
increase  in  the  ton  miles  carried  very  much  larger  than  your  propor- 
tion of  increase  in  your  traction  power? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  will  give  it  exactly.  I  think  not.  The  engine  power 
increase  was  about  14,  and  the  tonnage  increase  average  was  12,  Jj. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  The  tonnage  increase  average  was  12t  J^l 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  During  what  years? 

Mr.  Hill.  From  1903  to  1906,  as  far  as  we  have  gone  in  1906. 
Now,  the  cars 

Commissioner  Lane  (interrupting).  You  mean  that  increase  is  not 
from  year  to  vear,  but  from  1903  to  1906? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  taken  the  average  from  1903  to  1906. 

Conunissioner  Lane.  Well,  you  do  not  mean  that  the  14  per  cent 
was  an  increase  in  the  average  traction  power  from  year  to  year — ^you 
mean  that  that  is  an  absolute  increase? 

Mr.  Hill.  Well,  it  is  an  average  increase;  14  per  cent  for  that  time. 

Commissioner  IjANE.  Fourteen  per  cent  per  year? 

Mr.  Hill.  Per  year;  yes,  sir.  And  the  other  12.06  per  year  growth 
of  tonnage. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  mean  14  per  cent  per  year  means  77 
locomotives? 

Mr.  Hill.  That  will  be  77.     The  statement  is  here  in  detaiL 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  will  file  this  statement? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes,  I  brought  this  to  file. 

Now,  as  to  the  cars:  June  30,  1901,  we  had  of  freight  cars,  23,217; 
on  June  30,  1902,  25,217;  added  2,000,  with  a  capacity  of  12.71. 
That  is  the  capacity  of  the  cars.  June  30,  1902,  to  June  30,  1903,  we 
added  3,482,  a  capacity,  or  increase  in  capacity,  of  21.75  percent. 
June  30,  1903,  to  Jiine  30,  1904,  we  added  2,365  cars,  with  a  capacity 
of  10.97  per  cent  increase;  1905  we  added  503  cars,  or  2.27  per  cent. 
That  is  the  year  where  there  was  a  falling  off  of  about  2,000,000  tons 
actual  freight;  1905  we  added  2,219  cars,  or  10.41  per  cent;  1905  to 
1906,  5,897,  or  27.49  per  cent. 

Now,  tonnage:  In  1907  we  have  150  locomotives  ordered.  Last 
year  we  had  95  new  ones,  but  5  of  them  were  double  locomotives, 
300,000  pounds  on  the  drivers,  for  use  over  heavy  mountain  grades; 
we  have  ordered  4,000  large  capacity,  85,000  pounds  capacity,  box 
cars;  one  thousand  100,00()-pounds  capacity  ore  cars,  and  we  are 
placing  a  further  order  for  an  additional  1,000. 

Now,  in  doing  that,  with  the  additional  track  that  is  the  equivalent 
of  a  second  railroad  from  Devils  Lake,  a  double  track  from  there  west 
covering  the  branch  lines,  some  six  or  seven  of  them,  we  shall  be  in 
shape.  We  should  have  had  it  this  year,  if  it  had  been  possible  to  do 
it.  We  could  not  finish  it.  We  could  not  get  the  men.  Absolutely 
could  not  get  them,  or  could  not  keep  them.  I  think  it  is  safe  to  say 
we  carried  out  west  this  year  15,000  men,  and  never  had  at  one  time 
of  that  1 5,000  over  3,000  or  4,000  at  work.     I  do  not  think  we  ever  had 


294  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

4,000  at  work  at  one  time,  and  the  difficulty  of  securing  labor  to  do  the 
work  is  a  difficulty  that  this  country  has  to  meet. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  vou  think  that  that  excuses  the  failure  to 
move  cars  over  two  hundred  and  fifty  miles  in  a  shorter  time,  or  less 
than  fifteen  days  or  twelve  days  or  ten  days? 

Mr,  Hill.  There  is  no  excuse  for  not  moving  cars,  Mr.  Commissioner, 
if  they  can  be  moved.  I  suppose  that  almost  90  per  cent  of  the  cars 
move  without  delay,  without  unreasonable  delay,  to  maybe  five  or  ten 
per  cent  that  are  subject  to  unreasonable  delay. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  Mr.  Hill,  your  own  men  have  testified 
here  that  it  took  ten  days  to  take  a  freight  train  250  miles,  and  that 
that  was  a  reasonable  time,  passing  through  two  division  points? 

Mr.  Hill.  Now,  I  will  take  a  year  ago  the  30th  of  June,  when  our 
business  was  not  as  heavy  as  it  is  now.  Our  average  time  from  here 
to  the  coast  on  all  classes  of  freight,  2,000  miles,  was  less  than  nine 
days — was  less  than  nine  days. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  was  the  car  movement  per  day? 

Mr.  Hill.  On  the  whole  system? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Hill.  It  has  grown  less  every  year.  On  one  division,  on  the 
Mesaba,  where  we  have  control  of  the  unloading  ourselves,  we  get 
about  from  75  to  80  miles  a  day.  I  think  the  whole  system  would 
average  about  26  to  28  miles  a  day. 

Now  we  have  ( I  was  going  on  to  say)  ordered  locomotives  and  cars 
enough,  if  we  have  the  facilities,  if  we  can  get  rid  of  them  at  terminals ; 
I  mean,  when  I  say  at  terminals,  at  connecting  roads.  Each  rail- 
road's business  is  not  confined  to  itself.  We  load  a  car  at  some  point 
on  the  Great  Northern  and  it  may  be  destined  to  New  Orleans  or  New 
York.  Take  a  car  from  the  Pacific  Coast  with  lumber;  it  might  go  to 
Portland,  Maine,  or  Wilmington,  Delaware.  That  is  very  common, 
and  if  we  can  not  let  our  car  go  through,  that  man  can  not  ship.  He 
has  got  an  order,  and  he  complains  that  he  does  not  get  a  car,  and  we 
let  our  cars  go  through.  I  know  last  year,  about  this  time,  I  think  it 
was — about  the  12th  of  December — we  were  sending  cars  to  a  point 
in  southern  Illinois  for  coal  for  our  own  use,  and  they  were  loaded 
from  Minnesota  with  flour  as  far  as  Chicago.  Wlien  they  got  to 
Chicago  the  coimecting  lines  there  east  of  Chicago  had  no  cars  to 
which  they  could  be  transferred.  They  telegraphed  back  and  recom- 
mended us  and  urged  us  to  let  our  cars  go  through,  and  the  other 
roads  could  get  them  back  in  less  time  than  it  would  for  one  road  to 
unload  them  in  Chicago.  We  consented  that  they  should  go  through, 
and  in  March,  I  think,  between  the  1 0th  and  12th  of  March,  or  months 
afterwards,  they  had  not  got  a  hundred  miles  out  of  Chicago. 

I  was  getting  some  inside  fittings  and  furniture  for  a  house  in  New 
York  the  other  day  from  Boston.  It  took  so  long  that  I  told  the  man 
to  sliip  it  by  water;  ship  it  around  by  the  metropolitan  steamer.  He 
did,  some  of  it,  but  he  had  some  bedding — some  mattresses.  I  left 
New  York  on  Sunday,  and  on  Saturday  the  man  was  down  to  the 
room  to  see  me — I  was  confined  to  the  room  with  a  cold  -and  he  said 
that  the  mattresses  had  left  Boston  on  the  12th  of  November  and  had 
not  reached  New  York  on  the  16th  of  December. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  as  a  shipper,  Mr.  Hill,  what  remedy 
would  you  suggest  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  have  a  suggestion. 


OAB  6H0BTAGE.  295 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  would  be  glad  to  hear  it. 

Mr.  Hill.  I  have  the  suggestion,  but  people  muy  differ.  There  is 
no  subject  that  is  of  such  cardinal  importance  as  the  one  you  are  deal- 
ing with  to-day.  Every  day,  from  now  on  until  it  is  solved,  its  unpor- 
tauce  will  become  greater  and  greater.  The  commerce  of  this  country 
and  its  growth  and  its  business  is  against  a  stone  wall  so  high  they  can 
not  see  the  top  of  it.  No  man  can  see  the  top  of  it  to-day.  I  have 
looked  everywliere;  turned  everywhere  to  see  what  can  be  done. 

Now,  I  undertake  to  say,  and  I  base  it  on  this:  In  1870  we  had 
52,898  miles  of  railroad;  in  1880  we  had  93,671.  We  increased 
40,773,  or  an  annual  increase  of  7.7  per  cent.  From  1880  to  1890 
increased  7.46  per  cent.  From  1890  to  1904  we  increased  2.19  per 
cent.  From  1904  to  1906  we  have  increased  2.8  per  cent,  or  1.4  per 
cent  per  annum.  And  during  that  time — your  own  Commission's 
figures  show — that  from  1895  to  1905,  the  business  of  the  country, 
the  tons  moved,  increased  10  per  cent.  The  new  miles  increased 
20  per  cent  in  ten  years,  or  2  per  cent  per  annum.  But  of  that  20 
per  cent  three-quarters  of  it  was  new  mileage  that  was  built  in  new 
sections  of  the  country'  that  added  to  the  congestion  of  the  old.  I 
have  discussed  this  question  with  a  number  of  the  most  intelligent 
railroad  men  that  I  know,  have  asked  them  how  much  additional 
mileage  should  be  built  to  absolutely  relieve  the  country  from  the 
situation,  the  situation  it  is  laboring  under,  the  unreasonable  delay 
of  freight — there  will  always  be  some  delay — but  unreasonable  delay. 
They  put  the  necessary  mileage,  some  as  high  as  50  per  cent.  Well, 
that  is  out  of  the  question.  But,  men  who  have  taken  the  question 
and  thought  about  it,  and  tried  to  work  it  out — they  have  made  it 
anywhere  from  25  to  33  per  cent. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  will  that  mileage  be  used  up? 

Mr.  Hill.  That  will  have  to  be  used  up  practically  all  m  additional 
tracks  and  yards. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Putting  in  double  tracks? 

Mr.  Hill.  Double  tracks,  or  4  where  there  are  2.  Now,  at  the 
present  time,  it  is  impossible,  if  anybody  had  a  ship  lying  in  New 
Vork  Harbor,  it  would  be  impossible  for  him  to  get  a  contract  to  take 
500  carloads  from  Chicago  to  New  York  in  four  or  five  weeks  to  load 
that  ship.  If  a  railroad  did  give  such  a  contract,  the  chances  are  it 
would  fail — ^fall  down  and  be  unable  to  deliver  it. 

If  25  per  cent  of  new  mileage  were  to  be  built,  most  of  it  east  of 
the  Mississippi  River,  it  would  not  any  more  than  take  care  of  the 
existing  congestion  and  the  growth.  Now,  25  per  cent  of  the  new 
mileage  would  be  55,000  miles,  and  if  that  is  to  be  built  in  four  or 
five  years  it  would  take  11,000  miles  a  year;  but,  you  would  have  to 
add  one-third  of  the  mileage  for  terminal  and  passing  tracks.  Peo- 
ple think  that  a  double-track  road  does  not  need  any  passing  tracks, 
nut  when  they  undertake  to  operate  double  tracks  without  passing 
tracks  they  will  find  that  they  are  in  the  same  trouble  that  they  are 
in  when  they  try  to  run  too  many  freight  trains  over  a  single  track. 
The  number  of  collisi(ms  is  greater.  The  number  of  collisions  of 
passenger  trains  and  the  number  of  people  killed  to-day  is  because 
there  is  not  mileage  in  the  country  over  which  to  move  the  business. 

Add  33  per  cent  to  55,000  and  it  makes  78,333  miles.  Inasmuch 
as  most  of  this  is  main-track  mileage,  or  second  or  additional  tracks 


296  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

on  other  lines,  before  making  it  permanent  heavy  reductions  in  grades 
and  curvatures  on  existing  lines,  would  be  necessary. 

Twenty  or  twenty-five  years  ago  engineers  thought  if  they  could 
get  a  1  per  cent  grade  that  that  would  be  all  right.  That  was  a  good 
railroad,  1  per  cent.  A  1  per  cent  railroad  to-day  is  like  a  harbor 
in  front  of  a  city  with  a  depth  of  15  or  18  feet,  when  the  depth  of  the 
channel  ought  to  be  30  or  35  feet.  It  is  exactly  the  same  thing.  It 
is  just  as  important  to  tliis  country  that  the  railroads  should  be  built 
with  low  grades  and  capacity  to  haul  a  load,  as  it  is  that  a  siiip  should 
have  capacity  to  bring  a  load. 

I  have  heard  here — ^I  have  heard  it  talked  a  great  deal  about  trying 
to  prove  that  twice  two  is  one.  Now,  there  is  only  one  way — and  no 
man  living  can  stand  up  and  tell  us  anything  else — there  is  only  one 
way  to  handle  this  busmess,  and  that  is  to  have  low  grades  and  to 
have  the  largest  capacity  for  your  cars  and  your  engines.  I  will 
undertake — I  will  show  some  figures— let  me  show  what  we  are  up 
against.  Now,  73,000  miles  additional  would  be  no  more  than  is 
actually  necessary,  because  I  have  distributed  it  over  five  years,  and 
in  five  years,  if  we  are  to  have  any  growth — if  we  do  not  stand  still — 
the  allowance  is  altogether  too  small.  There  must  be  added  exten- 
sions to  terminal  yards,  and  a  general  increase  of  equipment  and  other 
facilities. 

I  do  not  think  the  new  mileage,  the  new  equipment,  terminal 
facilities,  and  so  forth,  could  be  produced  for  less  than  $75,000  a  mile 
for  main  track,  which  would  amount  to  $5,500,000,000,  or  a  yearly 
average  of  $1,100,000,000.  Now,  that  is  what  is  necessary  to  move 
this  stuff,  to  move  the  business  of  this  country  and  it  is  not  any  more 
than  is  necessary.  But  it  is  33  per  cent  or  44  per  cent  more  than  the 
cost  of  the  civil  war,  and  it  is  more  money  than  the  United  States  can 
raise ;  and  that  is  the  stone  wall  we  are  up  against,  and  foresight  does 
not  look  forward  to  get  a  glance  of  it.  We  are  up  against  that  until 
it  is  solved;  until  that  mileage  is  furnished  this  country  will  suffer 
and  its  business  will  not  move.  You  can  lead  a  horse  to  water  ten 
times,  but  you  can  not  make  him  drink  once.  You  can  not  get  any 
macliine  that  can  bore  an  inch  hole  with  a  half-inch  augur,  and  you 
can  not  drive  this  business  through  the  present  facilities,  because  there 
is  not  room  enough,  and  it  is  getting  worse  for  the  reason  that  it  has 
not  room  enough.  It  is  more  expensive  to  do  the  business.  It  costs 
the  railroads  more  to  do  the  business  when  they  are  moving  everything 
beyond  their  capacity.  The  best  economy  is  to  have  the  equipment 
and  facilities  properly  adjusted  to  the  volume  of  business,  ana  then 
keep  it  moving  in  a  harmonious  and  useful  way.  Anything  else  is 
wasteful. 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  Take  your  own  particular  road,  as  to  which 
these  complaints  have  been  made.  What  suggestion  would  you 
make  as  to  the  improvement  of  facilities  upon  that  road  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  Well,  we  are  at  work  reducing  grades  and  double  track- 
ing. We  reduced  the  grade  between  BrecKenridge  and  Minneapolis, 
this  year,  to  four-tenths  of  1  per  cent — 21  feet  to  the  mile.  It  was 
originally,  when  I  took  the  road,  1}  per  cent.  Now  we  have  got  it 
down  to  four-tenths  per  cent,  and  we  have  extended  the  double 
track  in  that  direction.  *  The  Northern  and  the  Great  Northern  work 
twQ  parallel  lines  between  here  and  St.  Cloud  as  a  double  track,  and 
that  helps.     The  Northern  Pacific  has  a  greater  density  of  traffic 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  297 

than  the  Great  Northern,  a  much  older  road ;  but  the  Great  Northern, 
notwithstanding  its  newness — the  Great  Northern  Railroad — I  have 
taken  it  and  compared  it  with  all  the  lines  running  in  here. 

The  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul — I  remember  the  Milwaukee  and  St. 
Paul  when  1  was  a  boy.  They  had  three  thousand  live  hundred  or 
four  thousand  miles  when  we  had  not  that  many  hundred  miles,  and 
we  were  following  the  Indians  across  the  plains;  but  on  6,916  miles 
they  move  4,663,808,007  ton  miles,  while  on  5,906  miles  we  move 
4,933,000,000  ton  miles.  In  other  words,  their  density  of  traffic  as 
compared  with  ours  is  just  80  per  cent.  Now,  they  run  in  a  much 
older  and  more  densely  populated  country — to  Chicago,  Milwaukee, 
and  out  to  Omaha,  Kansas  City,  and  so  on. 

Now,  the  Ciiicago  and  Northwestern,  with  7,428  miles — they  have 
125.77  per  cent  of  our  mileage — they  move  104  per  cent  of  our 
tonnage. 

The  Chicago,  Burlington  and  Quincy,  with  8,896  miles,  which  is 
150  per  cent  of  our  mueage,  they  moved  6,347,902,891,  or  128  per 
cent  of  our  tonnage. 

The  Rock  Island,  with  122  per  cent  of  mileage,  moved  75  per  cent 
of  the  tonnage.  The  Rock  Island's  density  of  traffic  is  just  61  per 
cent  of  that  of  the  Great  Northern.  That  is,  the  numoer  of  tons 
moved  for  1  mile  of  each  road. 

The  Soo  Line,  with  34  per  cent,  moved  21  per  cent,  on  practically 
22.98  of  the  tonnage.  The  traffic — that  is,  the  number  of  tons  pro- 
duced for  shipment  1  mile  on  each  mile  of  road,  averaged  for  the 
whole  year  3,297,169  or  35  per  cent  of  the  Great  Northern.  Now, 
the  Great  Northern,  with  5,906  miles,  moved  4,933,000,000  tons  1 
mile,  a  density  of  traffic  of  835,287  tons. 

The  Northern  Pacific,  with  5,401 — and  I  want  to  pay  them  the 
compliment  of  beating  us — the  Northern  Pacific,  with  5,401  miles,  or 
91  per  cent,  moved  106  per  cent  of  tons  per  mile  that  the  Great 
Northern  moved.  Their  density  of  traffic  is  971,000  ton  miles,  or 
116  per  cent  of  the  Great  Northern's,  or  36  heavier  than  the  Milwaukee 
and  St.  Paul. 

These  are  figures  which  can  be  figured,  and  they  are  not  somebody's 
hearsay.  These  are  the  actual  figures  of  what  is  being  done,  and  the 
reports  are  filed  under  oath. 

Now,  I  want  to  call  attention  to  a  point  here.  The  Milwaukee  and 
St.  Paul,  while  moving  94  per  cent  of  the  Great  Northern's  tonnage, 
ran  177.71  per  cent  of  the  train  miles. 

The  Chicago  and  Northwestern,  to  move  104  per  cent,  or  104.51, 
to  be  correct,  of  the  Great  Northern  tonnage,  moved  210,  or  practi- 
cally 211,  per  cent  of  the  train  service.  They  ran  a  train  service 
equal  to  a  freight  train  a  day  round  the  world  for  four  hundred  days 
in  the  year.  Now,  if  you  think  that  does  not  interfere  with  traffic, 
if  you  think  that  does  not  take  any  meeting  points,  if  you  think  that 
facilitates  business,  to  waste  train  service  in  that  manner,  take  the 
reports  and  shake  them  up  and  see.  They  could  not  move  our  ton- 
nage, and  they  have  got  more  double  track — I  should  say  600  miles — 
and  they  have  to  bund  more,  and  add  more  to  the  expense. 

We  are  building  double  tracks.  We  expect  to  sena  in  in  the  next 
two  years — I  hope  we  will  be  able  to  in  two  years  and  a  half — and  we 
have  just  raised  $60,000,000,  or  about  raismg  $60,000,000  for  addi- 
tional facilities,  and  to  do  our  share  of  wha^  is  necessary.     1  want  to 


29o  CAB   SHOKTAGE. 

have  it  so  our  road  will  not  be  behind  when  the  condition  of  ab  solute 
crash  comes,  because  it  will  not  be  a  panic;  it  will  be  a  crash,  if  it  can 
not  be  reheved.  Men  will  not  produce  out  of  the  ground;  they  will 
not  till  the  soil,  if  they  can  not  send  their  produce  to  market.  I  want 
to  be  able  to  get  ours  to  market  as  far  as  we  can. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  point  of  your  statement  is  that  the  rail- 
roads of  the  country  have  not  actually  kept  up  with  the  growth  of  the 
country. 

Mr.  Hill.  Why,  sir;  they  have  not  kept  in  sight  of  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  not  see  the  tail  end  of  the  wagon? 

Mr.  Hill.  No,  sir;  they  have  not  got  high  enough  to  get  a  horizon- 
tal view  of  the  question.  Why,  think  of  it.  We  have,  from  1 908  to 
1905 — we  have  added  in  the  two  years  1.4  per  cent  to  our  main  line  of 
railroad,  and  the  Commission's  report,  wnich  is  made  up  from  the 
statistics  furnished  by  the  railroads,  as  your  honorable  body  knows, 
shows  an  increase  in  the  ten  years  of  over  110  per  cent  and  98  per  cent 
in  passenger  business.  Now,  it  is  just  as  impossible  to  do  that  busi- 
ness, as  it  is  to  bore  an  inch  hole  with  a  half-inch  auger,  and  the  coun- 
try does  not  realize  it,  but  they  will  and  see  what  they  have  got  to  do 
and  what  they  have  got  to  face.  I  have  not  made  a  high  estimate.  I 
have  taken  the  lowest  that  any  intelligent  railway  manlias  given  me — 
25  per  cent — and  that  would  be  only  5  per  cent  a  year  for  the  next  five 
years;  and  prior  to  1890,  we  averaged  from  7.4  to  7.7  per  annum. 
But  for  the  next  five  years  we  would  average  5  per  cent  to  make  up  for 
the  lost  way  and  to  provide  for  the  increase  in  the  future. 

I  came  from  New  York.  I  got  out  of  a  sick  bed  to  come  here  for 
the  purpose  of  this  opportunity  to  put  it  fairly  before  the  people 
through  this  honorable  Commission,  to  see  where  they  stand,  and  I 
beg  the  Commission,  wherever  the  meetings  are  held,  to  investigate 
along  that  line  and  see  what  the  facilities  are.  I  know  one  man  said 
it  was  more  cars  he  wanted.  Good  gracious,  if  he  used  his  cars  as  we 
use  ours,  he  would  do  60  per  cent  more  business  than  he  is  doing. 

I  want  to  show  some  figures:  I  brought  hastily  some  figures  from 
the  1st  of  July  to  the  end  of  October,  inclusive,  showing  the  density 
of  traffic  on  the  Great  Northern  Railway,  and  I  may  say  that  for  the 
purpose  of  comparison  I  will  take  the  Lake  Shore  and  Michigan 
Southern.  They  have  a  double  track,  and  they  have  a  very  level 
road,  and  they  have  increased  their  train  loads  from  about  200  in  ten 
years — from  about  244  tons  to  the  train— I  am  speaking  from  recol- 
lection entirely — from  240  to  600.  They  are  now  about  up  to  600, 
but  they  have  increased  their  density  of  traffic  tons  moved  one  mile 
for  each  mile  of  road  to  3,000,000  a  year.  The  New  York  Central 
and  Hudson  River  shows  its  2,000,000  a  year  with  four  tracks.  The 
Pennsylvania,  the  Pennsylvania,  that  is,  from  Pittsburg  to  Philadel- 
phia, they  show  5,374,000.  These  figures  are  from  Poor's  Manual 
of  capital  statistics  for  1906. 

On  the  Mesaba  division,  which  runs  from  Cass  Lake  to  the  head 
of  Lake  Superior,  295  miles  of  road,  in  July,  the  Great  Northern 
moved  498,126  ton  miles,  average  for  the  whole  division,  or  practi- 
cally 6,000,000  a  year — more  than  the  Pennsylvania  runs  from 
Pittsburg  to  Philadelphia.  But  in  order  to  do  that,  let  us  see  what 
we  moved.  We  averaged  1,306.20  tons  to  the  train,  and  there  was  no 
blockade.  On  the  Superior  division,  running  from  here  to  I^ake 
Superior,  the  density  for  that  month  was  140,000.     That  would  be 


OAB   SHOBTAOB.  299 

1,680,516  for  the  year  on  a  sinijle  track  from  here  to  the  head  of 
the  lake,  against  2,000,000  on  the  New  York  Central,  averaged  for 
the  twelve  months  on  the  four  tracks. 

Now,  1  wish  an  opportunity — I  will  take  the  time  of  the  Com- 
mission— if  the  Commission  desires,  I  will  give  them  these  figures. 

The  Mesaba  division  in  October  moved  580,507  ton-miles  for  each 
mile  of  road,  295  miles.  One  hundred  and  fifteen  of  that  and  a  large 
amount  of  the  freight  was  iron  ore,  and,  as  I  said  before,  we  con- 
trolled the  unloading.  The  cars  were  ours,  and  if  there  wa.s  any  delay, 
it  was  our  delay.  We  got  from  75  to  80  miles  a  day  out  of  those  cars. 
The  train  load  was  1,406.72;  the  average  carload  was  39  tons,  and  I 
will  undertake  to  say  that  never  in  the  whole  world  has  the  same 
amount  of  track  moved  the  same  tonnage  or  approached  it.  The 
nearest  approach  will  be  on  the  Bessemer  road,  hauling  Bessemer  ore 
from  Conneaut  to  Pittsburg.  The  Superior  division  ran  226,299 ;  that 
is  from  here  to  Lake  Superior.  That  would  be  at  the  rate  of  2,7 1 5,588 
mile-tons  per  annum,  or  right  close  up  to  the  average  of  the  Lake 
Shore  with  double  track.     They  are  3,000,000. 

Commis.sionor  Lane.  Can  you  file  the  remainder  of  those  figures 
with  us,  Mr.  Hill?     Are  they  in  such  shape  that  you  can  do  that? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  brouo:ht  them  especially  for  that  purpcse,  and  every- 
thing is  here — the  different  increases  in  our  business  and  the  manner 
in  wliich  we  do  it  is  condensed  as  far  as  we  could.  These  figures, 
from  which  I  have  been  reading,  are  current  sheets  in  our  office.  I 
just  took  them  out  of  the  book,  and  I  undertake  to  verify  every  figure 
that  is  here.  They  are  absolutely  correct  and  not  any  guesses  or  hear- 
say in  them. 

I  would  like  to  show  this:  Take  the  Montana  division,  running 
from  Havre  to  Williston.  For  July  the  average  was  152,530  tons  to 
the  mile  of  road,  single  track;  over  1,800, COO  for  the  year — close  to 
the  average  of  the  New  York  Central  with  four  tracks.  In  October 
it  was  145,031.  The  Montana  Central  runs  over  three  ranges  of  moun- 
tains— the  Bitter  Root,  Crow  Creek,  and  the  other,  the  main  range. 
In  70  miles  that  road  crosses  two  ranges  of  mountains,  with  max- 
imum grade  of  116  feet,  or  2.2.  Notwithstanding,  their  average 
train  load  was  681  tons.  They  moved  on  an  average  for  that  month — 
that  is,  the  month  of  October — 110,798  tons  one  mile  for  each  mile 
of  road,  notwithstanding  they  have  these  enormous  grades.  They 
handle  verj"  heavy  traffic. 

Commi.ssioner  Lane.  Mr.  Marble,  have  you  any  further  questions? 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Hill,  are  you  accjuainted  with  the  plan  now 
being  proposed  by  J.  W.  Midgley,  of  Clucago,  in  these  circular  letters 
he  has  sent  out? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  have  known  Mr.  Midgley  for  a  great  many  years,  and 
I  contributed  to  keep  Mr.  Midgley  at  work  for  a  number  of  yeais  on 
the  question  of  interchange  of  cars,  but  the  whole  thing  fell  down. 
Mr.  Midgley  was  a  bright  and  capable  man  twenty  years  ago. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  agree  with  his  present  plan? 

Mr.  Hill.  1  have  never  seen  it.  I  tiiink  he  sent  it  to  me,  but  I 
have  been  busy  and  have  spent  all  the  time  that  I  have  had  to  give. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Hill,  he  h»s  a  plan  which  he  calls  a  car 
exchange  and  clearing  house.  At  the  end  of  the  month  his  plan  is  to 
have  an  adjustment  l-vtween  the  roads,  and  where  a  road  gives  a 
connecting  road  a  car  the  car  must  be  returned,  and  if  the  returns  are 


300  OAB  SHORTAGB. 

not  equal  at  the  end  of  the  month,  the  difference  is  to  be  adjusted  in 
a  money  value.  I  understand  his  view  to  be  that  that  will  provide 
or  result  in  a  more  equal  circulation  of  cars,  as  well  as  prevent  this 
seizure  of  cars  by  roads  who  are  not  well  equipped.  Have  you  looked 
into  that  at  all  or  thought  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  It  has  been  sent  to  me,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  do  you  think  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  do  not  think  there  is  anything  in  it  at  all,  and  I  will 
tell  you  why.  Now,  when  there  is  a  scarcity  of  cars,  and  tHey  have  a 
periodical  or  monthly  settlement,  it  is  not  going  to  relieve  us  a  particle 
to  get  50  cents  a  day  for  cars  that  we  would  give  $5  a  day  to  have. 
Each  railroad  must  have  its  own.  We  have  sent  our  cars  to  Boston, 
for  instance,  and  then  sent  a  man  after  them  to  find  them,  and  we 
found  them  hauling  ice  from  Maine  down  to  Boston,  having  been  in 
that  service  for  months  and  months.  I  found  our  box  cars  last 
spring  hauling  ties  into  Savannah,  Ga.  Now,  that  car  started  from 
here  for  St.  Louis,  to  be  returned. 

The  car  thief  is  the  worst  kind  of  a  thief.  Thieves  are  all  bad,  but 
I  think  the  car  thief  is  the  worst. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  was  some  testimony  here  to-day  indi- 
cating that  you  had  your  own  cars  and  more,  too  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  about  3,000  cars  to  the  good  at  the  present 
time? 

Mr.  Hill.  We  do  not  keep  a  man's  car  on  our  road,  and  there  is 
an  order  on  our  road  that  as  fast  as  that  car  can  be  unloaded  it  must 
be  returned.  People  are  sending  cotton  from  the  South  and  manu- 
factured goods  from  all  over  the  country,  everything,  from  here  to 
Puget  Sound,  and  I  should  say  that  2,000  cars  would  be  a  very  small 
proportion  of  foreign  cars  on  our  road ;  but  I  should  feel  very  much 
grieved  if  our  men  kept  those  foreign  cars  in  local  service. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  would  it  not  be  a  good  idea  to  make  it  legiti- 
mate and  lawful  and  proper  to  keep  them  by  some  car  clearing  house  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  No,  sir.     You  would  have  to  pay  for  keeping  them. 

Mr.  AL\RBLE.  Why  not  ?  If  they  are  worth  $5  a  day,  why  not  pay 
$5  a  day? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes ;  but  no  car  is  worth  $5  a  day  to  go  from  here  to  the 
coast  with  cotton.  It  will  not  pay.  The  total  receipts  will  not  be 
over  two  dollars  and  a  half. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  thought  you  said  they  were  worth  $5  a  day  a  mo- 
ment ago  ? 

^Ir.  Hill.  I  said  we  would  be  glad  to  have  cars  at  $5  a  day  at  that 
time,  but  they  would  be  off  on  somebody's  else  road,  and  they  would 
want  to  pay  fifty  cents  a  day.  Since  the  1st  of  December  the  per 
diem  charge  has  been  raised  from  twenty-five  to  fifty  cents,  and  I 
think  that  will  go  very  far  toward  curing  the  evil.  I  would  like  to 
see  it  a  dollar.  The  thing  that  probably  would  be  the  best  if  it  could 
be  done  would  be  a  transfer.  If  a  car  comes  from  the  east  have  it 
transferred. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  mean  going  over  your  own  rails? 

Mr.  Hill.  Transfer  that  car  to  our  car  and  take  it  from  here  to  its 
destination. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Would  that  not  be  an  expense  in  trans- 
portation i 


OAR  SHORTAGE.  301 

Mr.  Hill.  I  think  it  would  be  very  much  less  than  the  mileage 
that  is  paid.  It  would  only  be  a  bagatelle  as  compared  with  the  mile- 
age, but  the  average  shipper  thinks  that  if  he  has  to  change  cars  he 
is  ruined. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Hill,  as  we  are  to  interview  Mr.  Midgley  at  Chi- 
cago, I  want  to  read  a  couple  of  lines  from  his  circular  letter  No. 
59,  sent  from  Chicago  on  December  10,  190(),  in  which  he  says: 
"Assuredly  Mr.  E.  li!  Harriman  and  Mr.  J.  J.  Hill  could  put  firmly 
on  its  feet  a  car  clearing  house  whenever  they  chose  to  take  the  initia- 
tive; and  it  is  gratifying  to  be  able  to  say  those  gentlemen  cordially 
favor  such  a  course."  is  that  statement  on  the  part  of  Mr.  Midgley 
an  incorrect  statement  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  am  afraid  it  is.  I  don't  know  what  Mr.  Harriman's 
feelings  are  in  the  matter,  but  I  can  answer  for  myself. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  the  change  some  years  ago  from  a  mileage  pay- 
ment for  diverted  cars  to  a  per  diem  payment,  did  or  did  not  }>ir. 
Midglev  take  a  prominent  part  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  Mr.  Midgley  was  an  employee  of  a  number  of  railroads, 
of  which  ours  was  one,  and  for  two  reasons 

Mr.  Marble  (interrupting).  I  just  want  to  know  if  he  did  have 
part  in  that  and  then  I  will  ask  you  another  question. 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes,  sir;  he  did  have  part  in  that  to  some  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  Mr.  Midgley  at  all  an  agent  or  factor  in  bringing 
that  change  about? 

Mr.  Hill.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  followed  these  letters  he  has  been  printing 
for  this  central  association  this  summer  and  distributing  among  the 
railroads? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  have  received  some  communications  from  him,  but  I 
have  been  so  busy  and  they  were  so  long  I  had  not  the  time  to  read 
them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  if  you  had  read  Mr.  Midgley's  communication 
of  May  17,  1906,  you  would  have  found  this  passage: 

With  the  proepoct  of  a  harvest  unsurpassed  in  our  history,  the  demand  for  cars  in  a 
few  months  is  likely  to  exceed  the  ability,  under  present  methods  and  car  service 
rules,  to  satisfactorily  meet." 

So  that,  at  that  time,  he  foretold  this? 

Mr.  Hill.  Anybody  could  foretell  it.  That  is  not  a  matter  that 
requires  any  forethought.  Anybody  in  the  business  that  had  any 
gumption  at  all  would  know  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  only  one  quotation  from  this  gentleman  and 
here  is  another  one.  After  referring  to  the  argimient  of  Mr.  Stuy- 
vesant  Fish,  of  the  Illinois  Central,  who  was  undertaking  to  show 
that  the  increase  in  equipment  and  capacity  to  move  freighthad  kept 
pace,  so  far  as  his  road  (the  Illinois  (Jentral)  was  concerned,  with  tne 
growth  of  the  country,  Mr.  Midgley  makes  this  statement:  "This 
sustains  the  contention  that  the  increase  in  motive  power  and  in  car 
capacity  has  kept  pace  with  the  marvelous  growth  of  tonnage  offered 
for  transportation. 

I  will  also  state  that  Mr.  Midgley  has  told  me  that  very  many  rail- 
road men  agree  with  him  that  the  present  inability  to  give  service  is 
due  to  bad  methods  of  car  interchange.  Now,  you  have  stated  very 
clearly  what  your  view  is  on  that  point.     Do  you  know  whether  or 


302  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

not  there  is  a  difference  of  opinion  among  operating  railroad  officials 
in  this  country  on  that  point? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  think  if  you  should  take  men  who  were  brought  up  in 
making  tariffs — whose  experience  has  been  in  making  tariffs — I 
have  always  found  that  they  were  very  generous  with  the  company's 
cars,  and  apt  to  be  with  the  company's  rates. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  has  happened? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes;  and  money.  But  as  an  operating  man,  who 
actually  knows,  and  has  to  know,  I  never  found  one  yet. 

Mr.  Marble,  You  say  they  are  all  of  the  opinion,  the  experienced 
operating  men  that  you  have  here  stated? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  think  so.     I  never  found  one  who  disagreed. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  it  is  a  fact  that  some 
five  or  six  or  seven  years  ago  a  great  number  of  railroads  followed 
this  tonnage  plan,  which  I  understand  you  have  the  credit  of  invent- 
ing and  imtiatmg,  and  a  number  of  them  found  that  it  occasioned 
such  dissatisfaction  to  their  patrons  that  they  had  to  abandon  it 
and  move  all  their  trains  by  the  old  methods.  Do  you  know  whether 
that  is  true  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  know  this.  I  know  it  is  very  difficult  to  get  a  railroad 
man  anywhere  who  can  load  his  cars— who  appreciates  the  importance 
of  loadmg  a  car  and  loading  the  engine  with  loaded  cars.  Now,  I 
will  try  and  clear  your  mind,  because  I  think  it  needs  it.  I  beg  your 
pardon,  nothing  meant,  except  this,  that  the  tendency  of  your 
questions,  as  I  have  listened  to  them,  led  me  to  believe  that  if  your 
ideas  were  carried  out  the  country  would  be  so  much  worse  off. 

Mr.  ^La.rble.  Understand  me,  Mr.  Hill,  I  have  tried  to  make  my 
questions  such  that  the  answers  would  give  completely  the  opinion 
of  the  railroad  people  in  this  country.  The  record  will  depend  upon 
the  answers  they  give,  not  upon  my  questions. 

Mr.  Hill.  I  will  just  aid  you  right  here,  and  illustrate — take  a 
car  that  weighs  35,000  or  36,000  pounds  and  half  load  it  or  qiiarter 
load  it.  Now,  we  commenced,  we  found  that  the  cars  loaded  from 
the  country  station  to  St.  Paul  averaged  5,000  to  6,000  pounds,  and 
the  capacity  of  those  cars  was  60,000.  The  company  hauled  18 
tons  or  car  and  blocked  its  railroad  with  40  feet  of  car  to  move  6,000 

Eounds.  'By  paying  close  attention  to  the  loading  of  that  car  we 
ave  got  it  up  to  18,000  pounds,  and  I  think  now  at  the  Minnesota 
transfer  probably  higher  than  18,000. 

We  have  not  handled  anything  like  the  number  of  cars  that  we  had 
to  before  to  do  the  same  amount  of  business.  We  do  not  block  the 
side  tracks,  we  do  not  block  the  railroad.  It  is  the  same  thing  as  hav- 
ing a  one-horse  wagon  and  a  delivery  cart  to  haul  brick.  ?\ow,  you 
could  haul  brick  with  one  horse  and  a  cart,  but  it  would  be  very  expen- 
sive and  it  would  be  very  slow  work. 

I  do  not  think  you  need  any  further  illustration  than  the  one  I  have 
given  to  show  that  where  we  have  15  miles  of  double  track  out  of  295 
miles,  total,  that  we  move  over  6,000,000  ton  miles  and  there  is  no 
delay,  and  we  move  1,300  tons  to  the  train — average  1,300  to  1,400. 
I  will  give  you  some  figures  right  here 

Mr.  Marble.  You  will  pardon  me,  Mr.  Hill,  but  you  are  doing 
everything  except  answer  my  question 

Mr.  Hill.  I  thought  I  was.     What  is  your  question  ? 


OAB   SHOBTAOE.  803 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  just  this :  Do  you  know  whether  or  not,  following 
your  teaeliing  and  example,  and  under  the  control  of  men  educated  to 
your  ide.s,  a  number  of  n  ilroads  in  competitive  territory  some 
years  ago  did  adopt  tliis  method,  and  in  competitive  territory  found 
that  it  gave  such  dissatisfaction  to  their  patrons  that  they  had  to 
hghten  their  trains  to  expedite  movement?  Do  you  know  whether  or 
not  tliis  is  true  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  never  heard  of  its  being  true.  I  have  heard  of  this :  I 
have  heard  of  men  coming  and  occupying  a  room  in  our  building  to 
study  and  see  what  we  were  doing.  We  gave  them  all  the  information 
we  could.  Then  they  would  go  off  and  try  it  for  six  months  and  they 
could  not  do  it.  They  were  like  that  doctor  who  "could  cure  fits. 
Now,  they  could  not  do  it;  and  they  go  back  to  their  old  methods. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  they  have  attempted  to  adopt  it  and  have  given 
it  up;  a  number  of  railro.ids? 

Mr.  Hill.  They  have  attempted  to  adopt  it  and  failed  because  they 
did  not  know  how.  There  can  be  notliing  better  to  illustrate  that 
than  this  case  right  here,  to  move  104  per  cent  of  our  tonnage  with 
211  per  cent  of  tlie  trains  we  run. 

Mr.  Beoo.  The  object  of  your  loading  your  cars  and  loading  your 
engines  as  near  to  capacity  as  possible  on  your  line  is  not  for  the 
mere  purpose  of  making  tonnage  per  train,  but  for  the  purpose  of 
moving  vour  traffic  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  Moving  the  traffic. 

Mr.  Begq.  You  have  got  to  do  it  to  get  the  traffic  over  your  line? 

Mr.  Hill.  The  trains  that  are  delayed  the  most,  our  train  sheets 
will  show,  are  the  ones  that  have  the  lightest  load. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  do  you  think  the  cars  push  the  engines  along? 

Mr.  Hill.  No,  sir;  not  at  all.     I  never  thought  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  what  would  be  the  dilliculty  with  the  fight 
trains? 

Mr.  Hill.  Because  they  are  way  trains. 

Mr.  Marble.  Because  they  are  stopping  to  do  work  along  the  road? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  Great  Northern  has  notified  us  that  as  to 
the  coal  deficiency  at  Parker  they  have  already  cared  for  that,  and 
at  Ojata  they  would  have  a  car  to-morrow.  At  Finley  they  had  6 
cars  of  coal;  Cando  has  had  4  cars  of  coal  and  4  of  wood;  Gl<!nburn 
has  had  4  cars  of  wood.  With  the  exception  of  the  stations  on  the 
Northern  Pacific,  which  I  understand  from  Mr.  Elliott  have  been 
taken  care  of,  those  are  all  the  stations  that  have  been  referred  to  us 
where  there  is  an  actual  and  immediate  necessity  for  coal. 

Mr.  Hnx.  Just  one  word  as  a  part  of  my  testunony.  I  took  occa- 
sion to  find  out  what  was  on  the  Great  Northern,  loaded  with  coal,  on 
the  way  west  from  the  head  of  Lake  Superior.  There  are  something 
over  2,000  cars  of  commercial  coal — enough  coal  to  run  the  people 
until,  I  should  sav,  the  middle  of  February  or  the  1st  of  March. 

Commissioner  IjANE.  Did  you  have  it  distributed  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  We  can  not  distribute  it;  but  we  have  hauled  up  to  the 
1st  of  December — we  have  hauled  about  86,000  tons  more  commercial 
coal  this  year  than  we  did  last,  notwithstanding  all  this  trouble. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  will  keep  your  eye  on  this  situation? 

Mr.  Hill.  No  oni^  is  deeper  interested  in  it  than  X  am. 


304  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Begg.  You  are  and  have  been  making  every  effort.  I  want  you 
to  state  to  the  Commission  what  the  reasons  are  which  have,  in  your 
opinion,  led  to  this  pecuHar  condition  in  the  north — the  exceptional 
circumstances  this  year  which  you  think  will  not  tend  to  produce  it  in 
another  year? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  would  say  in  reply  to  that — and  speaking  especially  of 
the  conditions  applying  to  the  Great  Northern  Railway  this  year, 
which  ordinarily  do  not  apply — that  the  biggest  single  factor  in  our 
failure  to  give  better  service  to  the  people  in  North  Dakota  has  been 
the  strike  in  the  coal  mines  in  British  Columbia.  That  cut  off  from  our 
engine-coal  supply  between  1,700  and  2,000  tons  of  coal  per  day,  for  a 
little  over  two  months,  and  that  deficiency  had  to  be  supplied. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  your  ordinary  supply  1,700  tons  a  day? 

Mr.  Hill.  From  that  mine  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  From  that  mine  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes,  sir.  And  that  quantity  of  coal  had  to  be  moved 
from  other  sources  of  supply.  We  got  200  or  300  tons  additional  from 
mines  on  the  Pacific  coast  west  of  the  Cascade  Mountains,  and  we  got 
two  or  three  hundred  tons  a  day  from  mines  in  Montana;  but  the 
great  bulk  of  the  shortage  had  to  be  made  up  from  our  supply  at  the 
head  of  the  Lakes,  and  the  result  of  that  was  that  instead  of  empty  cars 
to  move  from  the  head  of  the  Lakes  direct  into  the  wheat  fields,  where 
they  could  be  turned  and  brought  back  again,  we  were  compelled  to 
send  them  to  the  coal  docks ;  and  they  had  to  move  much  farther  west 
and  be  unloaded  and  then  moved  to  where  they  could  be  made  availa- 
ble for  the  grain  loading. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  they  come  back  loaded  with  something  as 
fast  as  unloaded? 

Mr.  Hill.  Some  cases  they  did;  in  some  cases  we  moved  empties 
also  unloaded  from  points  in  Montana  to  the  Pacific  coast,  and  they 
came  back  loaded  with  lumber  and  forest  products. 

Commissioner  Lane.  So  that  the  wheat  fields  do  not  get  them? 

Mr.  Hill.  They  did  in  part;  and  part  comes  back  empty  in  the 
wheat  fields,  and  part  of  them  were  loaded  with  forest  products  for 
those  wheat  fields,  and  then  they  got  into  the  wheat  fields.  In  addi- 
tion, of  course,  to  the  much  larger  amount  of  company  coal,  there  was 
the  very  heavy  movement  of  commercial  coal.  The  farming  com- 
munity in  North  Dakota  has  made  a  good  deal  of  progress,  and  they 
are  burning,  per  head  of  population,  very  much  more  coal  than  thej 
have  ever  done  before.  Another  temporary  and  local  condition  is 
this — that  quite  a  number  of  stations,  which  ordinarily  do  not  receive 
one  pound  of  coal  over  our  rails,  because  they  mine  coal  from  the  lig- 
nite mines  in  their  near  vicinity,  have  been  unable  to  team  coal  from 
those  mines  to  the  towns,  and  suddenly  called  upon  us  for  coal,  and 
they  have  placed  orders  which  have  not  up  to  this  time  been  filled. 

Mr.  Begg.  Is  not  Ojata  one  of  those? 

Mr.  Hill.  No. 

Mr.  Begg.  What  one  of  the  towns  we  heard  from  as  having  coal 
shortage  was  in  that  class? 

Mr.  Hill.  Minot  is  a  case  where  very  little  coal  is  ever  shipped. 
Minot  is  surrounded  by  lignite  coal  mines. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  th©  Washburn  mines  on  your  line  I 

Mr.  Hill.  No,  sir. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  305 

Mr.  Marble.  We  got  word  this  morning  they  were  in  trouble  for 
lack  of  cars. 

Mr.  Hill.  They  are  on  the  Soo  lines. 

Mr.  Beqg.  The  coal  situation,  the  coal  strike,  and  the  necessity  for 
loading  coal  ourselves  is  one  of  the  special  thin^. 

Mr.  Hill.  That  has  been  the  lai^est  single  item. 

Mr.  Bego.  Has  there  not  been  an  exceptionally  heavy  loading  of 
merchandise  and  other  commodities  west? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes,  sir;  the  general  westbound  movement  has  been 
exceptionally  heavy. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  explanation  have  you  to  give  for 
the  length  of  time  required  for  moving  a  car?  I  have  been  three 
days  trying  to  get  the  question  answered  as  to  why  it  takes  ten 
days  to  move  a  car  250  miles. 

Mr.  Hill.  Mr.  Commissioner,  I  do  not  think  your  idea  is  correct 
that  the  Great  Northern  men  testified  that  it  took  that  long. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  am  not  saying  the  Great  Northern  men 
say  so. 

Mr.  Hill.  The  slow  movement  is  not  in  the  last  250  miles.  It 
has  been  in  the  movement  from  the  loading  point  up  to,  say,  400 
miles  from  the  head  of  the  lakes;  and  after  we  pass  that  point  there 
is  a  pretty  good  movement,  so  far  as  we  have  oeen  able  to  get  the 
business  into  the  teniiinal.  The  terminal  itself  has  been  congested, 
but  the  railway  between  the  terminal  and  Larrimore  has  not  been 
congested.  There  is  no  difficulty — but  west  of  Larrimore,  on  account 
of  our  inability  to  complete  that  cutoff  between  Anita  and  Devils 
Lake  there  has  been  congestion.  Our  De\nls  Lake  yard,  for  instance, 
has  not  been  sufficient  to  properly  take  care  of  the  business,  because 
we  do  not  count  on  getting  relief  from  that  line.  That  is  new^  country 
to  us;  and  in  that  territory  there  has  been  a  delay  in  getting  the 
car  from  the  point  of  loading  to  the  point  where  our  facilities  are 
sufficient.  There  has  been,  as  I  think  the  testimony  of  our  super- 
intendents, Mr.  Philbin,  Mr.  Bell,  and  Mr.  Bowen  snowed,  a  good, 
prompt  movement  into  and  across  their  divisions. 

Mr.  Bego.  A  lar^  part  of  the  delayed  cars  is  in  terminals,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bego.  How  many  switch  engines  have  you  in  Minneapolis? 

Mr.  Hill.  Thirty-three  or  thirty-four  engines  in  St.  Paul  and 
Minneapolis. 

Mr.  Bego.  How  many  freight  engines  are  on  the  Willmar  and 
Fergus  Falls  division,  bringing  freight  into  the  divisions? 

Mr.  Hill.  About  26  or  25. 

Mr.  Bego.  That  is,  you  have  more  switch  engines — there  are  more 
engines  in  the  switching  service  in  the  terminals  than  there  are  freight 
engines  taking  freight  to  the  terminals,  and  that  is  a  necessary  opera- 
tion? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes;  we  find  it  so.  It  takes  longer  to  get  a  car  into 
this  terminal  and  out  of  it  again  and  on  the  way  back  to  the  wheat 
fields  than  it  does  to  move  it  500  miles  on  its  way  in. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  proportion  of  your  engines,  taking  the  system, 
are  switch  engines? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  think  about  12  p>er  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  12  per  cent? 

S.  Doc.  333, 5^2 20 


306  GAB  SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes. 

Mr.  Begg.  What  other  special  conditions  have  there  been — what 
effect  had  the  washout  in  tne  West  on  this  situation  and  how  severe 
were  those  washouts  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  The  wa.shouts  on  the  main  lines  at  a  number  of  points 
entirely  stopped  traffic  for  just  about  a  week. 

Mr.  Begg.  That  congested  the  yards,  did  it  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  It  congested  the  line,  over  a  ^eat  deal  of  its  mileage. 
Terminals  near  it,  especially,  became  speedily  filled  with  cars,  which 
backed  up  clear  across  the  country. 

Mr.  Begg.  How  is  the  weather? 

Mr.  Hill.  Bad.    The  worst  I  have  ever  seen. 

Mr.  Begg.  How  early  did  that  species  of  weather  set  in  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  Cold  weather  began  to  interrupt  the  movement  of  trains 
about  the  middle  of  November,  and  we  have  had  almost  continuous 
stormy  weather  through  most  of  North  Dakota  ever  since. 

Mr.  Begg.  Extremely  cold? 

Mr.  Hill.  Extremely  cold,  and  with  drifting  snow. 

Mr.  Begg.  How  cold  has  it  been? 

Mr.  Hill.  We  had  it  yesterday  morning,  the  coldest — 38°  below 
zero  at  Grand  Forks — ih&t  was  day  before  yesterday.  Yesterday 
morning  it  was  28°  below,  with  very  high  wind  blowing  and  drifting 
snow;  and  under  those  conditions  it  was  almost  a  physical  impossi- 
bility to  move  trains.  The  day  before  yesterday  a  train  of  commercial 
coal  went  westbound  from  Larrimore  with  twenty  cars  in  it,  hauled 
by  three  engines.  Each  one  of  these  engines  would,  under  ordinary 
conditions,  pvUl  sixty  cars,  and  it  took  three  of  them  to  pull  twenty. 

Mr.  Begg.  The  weather  is  very  hard  on  men  as  well  as  engines? 

Mr.  Hill.  It  is  very  hard  indeed  to  get  men  to  the  point  where  they 
will  give  good  service  in  that  extreme  weather. 

Mr.BEGG.  It  has  also  been  stated  that  the  greater  percentage  of  the 
wheat  this  year  has  gone. 

Mr.  Hill.  There  has  been  relatively  a  very  heavy  amount  to  the 
head  of  the  Lakes. 

Mr.  Begg.  Your  total  wheat  movement  is  equal  to  last  year,  is  it 
not  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  Just  about  equal. 

Mr.  Begg.  A  greater  portion  to  the  head  of  the  Lakes? 

Mr.  Hill.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Begg.  Whiat  has  caused  the  delay  in  movement  to  the  head  of 
the  Lakes  ?  What  has  been  the  principal  cause  locally  at  the  head  of 
the  Lakes? 

Mr.  Hnx.  The  difficulty  at  the  head  of  the  Lakes  had  been,  first, 
that  business,  instead  of  going,  as  it  used  to,  directlv  into  elevators 
located  on  our  line,  has  been  ordered  shipped  and  transferred  to 
elevators  on  the  lines  of  other  companies,  and  we  have  got  to  dis- 
pose of  those  cars  and  switch  them  to  the  other  companies,  and  the 
other  company  has  to  take  that  to  the  industry  at  which  they  are 
to  be  unloadeid  and  the  cars  then  have  to  go  to  the  dock,  and,  in 
some  cases,  through  an  intermediate  line,  and  then  go  for  loading. 
So  that  the  movement  of  cars  through  the  terminal  is  very  much 
slower.  The  change  in  the  methods  of  doing  business  is  quite  marked 
during  late  years,  and  particularly  this  year.  There  was  a  time  in 
the  early  years  of  our  operation  at  the  tead  of  the  Lakes  when  we 


CAB   SHOBTAQB.  307 

got  as  many  as  800  carloads  of  grain  and  drew  it  into  Superior  and  were 
able  to  turn  them  and  have  them  on  the  way  back  to  the  wheat 
fields  in  two  days,  and  under  the  very  best  conditions  now  we  can 
not  turn  them  in  six  days. 

Mr.  Beoo.  In  addition  to  that  have  your  yards  been  taxed) 

Mr.  Hnx.  Very  severely  taxed. 

Mr.  Beoo.  You  had  planned  to  enlarge  those  yards  1 

Mr.  Hill.  We  have  thought  to  enlarge  them. 

Mr.  Bego.  Impossible  to  do  it  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  Impossible. 

Mr.  Bego.  For  what  reason  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  On  account  of  both  shortage  of  material  and  labor. 

Mr.  Ward.  What  is  the  average  freight  car  movement  on  the 
Great  Northern — miles  per  day? 

Mr.  Hill.  It  is  about  28  miles  per  car  per  day. 

Mr.  Ward.  How  does  that  compare  with  freight  car  movement 
on  other  roads  with  wliich  you  are  familiar? 

Mr.  Hill.  I  have  not  got  statistics  at  hand  for  other  roads,  although 
I  have  seen  from  time  to  time  in  railway  reports  statistics  that 
indicate  that  that  mileage  is  verj'  much  greater  than  it  is  on  lines 
east  of  us.  I  have  seen  the  figures  of  one  or  two  roads.  I  tliink 
the  Northern  Pacific  are  almost  the  same  as  ours,  perhaps  a  very 
little  less. 

Mr.  Ward.  Our  average  has  decreased  ? 

Mr.  Hill.  Our  average  has  decreased  a  great  deal  and  it  has  dropped 
very  much  the  last  two  or  three  years. 

Mr.  Ward.  Explain  that. 

Mr.  Hell.  It  is  verj'^  largely  because  the  cars  are  loaded  in  both  di- 
rections to  a  very  much  greater  extent  than  it  used  to  be.  We  have 
business  going  both  east  and  west,  and  when  in  past  years  it  ran  in  one 
direction  only,  and  the  only  thing  we  had  to  do  on  the  arrival  of  a  car 
at  the  terminal  was  to  place  it  at  the  unloading  point,  and  receive  it 
as  an  empty  and  send  it  out.  In  the  case  of  cars  destined  to  indus- 
tries on  our  line,  we  have  a  large  per  cent  that  goes  to  other  lines  for 
loading,  and  are  delayed  there.  They  get  their  loads  on  other  lines. 
In  some  cases  they  are  unloaded  on  one  line  and  have  to  be  moved 
empty  to  still  anotner  line  and  get  their  load  there,  and  all  those  things 
tend  to  make  the  movement  through  the  terminals  very  lethargic. 

Mr.  Ward.  And,  of  course,  you  have  two  loadings  and  two  un- 
loadings? 

Mr.  lIiLL.  On  the  other  end;  a  car  going  to  a  given  point  to  be  im- 
mediately loaded  with  grain  and  gets  loaded  with  coal  or  some  other 
commodity  and  loses  two  or  more  days  before  it  is  prepared  to  receive 
a  load  of  grain. 

Mr.  Ward.  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  will  now  take  an  adjournment  at  this 
time  until  to-morrow  morning  at  10  o'clock  at  the  United  States  court 
room  in  Chicago. 

(Thereupon  at  2.20  o'clock  the  Commission  adjourned.) 


308  OAB   SHORTAGE. 

United  States  Court  Room, 
Chicago^  III.^  Decemher  20,  1906—10.10  a.  m. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Gentlemen,  may  I  have  your  attention? 

This  hearing  of  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  is  a  con- 
tinuance of  the  hearing  that  was  held  during  the  fore  part  of  this 
week  in  Minneapolis.  It  relates  to  the  general  subject  of  car  short- 
age, the  lack  of  facilities  for  transportation  of  freight.  We  desire 
to  enter  at  this  time  into  the  conditions  and  practices  respecting  the 
movement  of  freight  which  obtain  in  this  section,  to  search  for  the 
reasons  therefor  and  which  tend  to  justify  or  condemn  the  same. 
We  wish  to  know  whether  the  shipper  or  the  consignee  is  in  whole 
or  in  part  to  blame,  either  in  the  methods  of  delivering  or  receiving 
of  freight,  or  whether  the  fault  lies  with  the  carriers  because  of 
either  their  indifference  to  public  entreaty,  their  lack  of  foresight 
in  providing  necessary  equipment  or  terminal  facilities,  or  their  too 
great  regard  for  interests  not  wholly  compatible  with  the  most  ef- 
ficient transportation  service.  We  wish  to  know  how  far  Avhatever 
delinquencies  there  are  may  be  excused-  because  of  the  crop  and 
business  conditions.  It  is  the  further  desire  of  the  Commission  to 
discover  whether  undesirable  conditions,  if  resulting  from  rail- 
road methods,  are  such  as  can  be  remedied  by  the  carriers  them- 
selves, and  whether  such  is  their  determination,  as  evidenced  by 
policies  alreadj'  adopted  and  immediately  contemplated,  or  whether 
it  shall  be  necessary  to  advise  legislation  by  Congress  which  will 
insure,  as  well  as  may  be,  against  the  recurrence  of  such  public 
calamity  as  arises  from  so-called  car  shortage. 

The  present  hearing  will  therefore  proceed  to  develop  answers  to 
the  following  questions : 

1.  "\Miat  are  the  real  conditions  respecting  the  movement  of 
freight  in  this  section  ? 

2.  Is  there  a  shortage  of  freight  cars  or  locomotives  on  the  roads 
serving  this  territory;  and,  if  so,  what  has  been  done  to  overcome 
such  shortage? 

3.  Is  proper  and  profitable  use  made  of  all  cars  and  locomotives* 
available? 

4.  Are  trains  so  made  up  and  operated  as  to  best  serve  the  interests 
of  the  public  ? 

5.  Is  it  within  the  power  of  the  railroads  to  remedy  the  present 
trouble  and  insure,  by  adopting  other  methods  of  handling  and 
interchanging  cars,  against  their  continuance? 

6.  What  legislation,  if  any.  would  serve  to  induce  more  prompt 
handling  of  freight  by  both  railroads,  shippers,  and  consignees? 

Mr.  John  H.  Marble  will  act  as  attorney  for  the  Commission  and 
we  will  be  pleased  to  hear  from  anj^one,  shipper  or  railroad  man,  who 
desires  to  prasent  any  views  relating  to  this  general  subject.  It  is 
an  investigation  begun  upon  the  initiative  of  the  Commission  itself, 
and  we  wish  to  have  as  full  information  as  possible. 

Mr.  Marble,  you  may  proceed. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  the  Commission  please,  here  is  some  correspond- 
ence that  has  come  into  my  hands  since  the  close  of  the  Minneapolis 
session  last  night,  which  I  will  put  into  the  record  at  this  time. 

The  first  comes  from  the  Northwestern  Retail  Coal  Dealers  Asso- 
ciation, of  Minneapolis,  Minn.,  and  is  signed  by  G.  H.  Reeves,  secre- 
tary and  treasurer,  and  says; 


CAB   8H0RTAGB.  309 

"  For  your  information  I  inclose  you  herewith  copies  of  letters 
from  Mr.  Fred  J.  Kruse,  Lamoure,  N.  Dak."  In  connection  with  that 
here  is  a  letter  from  Lamoure,  N.  Dak.,  December  17,  1906,  addressed 
to  Mr.  Geo.  Reeves,  which  savs  that  N.  P.  car  45932,  from  Superior, 
shipped  Noveml)er  30,  1906,  had  not  vet  arrived,  and  N.  P.  32491, 
from  Lehi«;h  Valley  Coal  Company,  shipped  Decemlier  8,  190(5,  had 
not  yet  arrived.  Tlie  letter  also  says  that  Lamoure  has  not  had  a 
freight  from  the  east  since  the  12th  instant,  and  that  it  has  had  a 
passenger  coming  over  the  road  every  day.  The  residents  of  Lamoure 
do  not  see  why  the  railroad  does  not  run  a  freight,  for  none  of  the 
dealei*s  have  a  bit  of  fuel. 

I  wish  this  to  be  put  in  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1." 

(The  same  is  admitted  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1 — 
Marble.") 

Here  is  another  letter  from  Mr.  E.  E.  Heiner,  of  the  St.  Paul  and 
Western  Coal  Company,  who  was  on  the  stand  at  Minneapolis  and 
j)romised  to  funiish  corresi)ondence  relating  to  delayed  shipments. 
He  sends  in  lettei-s  relating  to  two  cars.  One  is  from  t'argo,  N.  Dak., 
saying  that  they  are  in  straits  for  fuel.  This  letter  is  written  under 
date  of  the  14th  instant.  It  says  they  have  been  wiring  for  car  N.  P. 
34325,  shipped  on  Deceml)er  3.  The  other  is  from  Pleasant  Lake, 
N.  Dak.,  and  is  of  the  same  general  nature. 

(The  same  is  admitted  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  2 — 
Marble.") 

Here  is  a  souvenir  postal  card  from  McClusky,  N.  Dak.,  showing 
cattle  in  a  pen  awaiting  cars.  There  is  an  accompanying  letter  oi 
explanation  to  the  effect  that  the  picture  shows  91  head  of  cattle 
in  the  little  stock  yard  at  McClusky,  N.  Dak.,  on  December  11.  The 
writer  savs  that  they  are  the  property  of  George  Hecker,  who  lives 
20  miles  \)ack  in  the  country,  and  who  drove  them  in  on  the  morn- 
ing of  December  7,  expecting  to  find  waiting  the  cars  he  had 
arranged  for  two  weeks  earlier.  There  was  no  place  in  town  to 
put  the  cattle  but  the  stock  pen,  and  they  remained  from  Friday 
morning  until  the  following  Wednesday  morning  (December  7  to 
12)  without  shelter,  with  the  mercury  ranging  as  low  as  26°.  The 
local  station  agent  wired  repeatedly  to  Jamestown,  the  headquarters, 
hut  got  no  reply,  and  finally  sent  a  verbal  message  down  the  road 
to  the  freight  crew  begging  them  to  come  for  the  cattle.  On  Wednes- 
day they  were  taken  to  Carrington,  a  distance  of  63  miles.  Here 
they  waited  on  the  siding  until  after  5  p.  m.,  reaching  Jamestown 
nlxiut  11  p.  m.  The  cattle  had  then  stood  in  the  car  seventeen  hours, 
and  been  carried  just  107  miles.  Following  that  is  a  statement  of  the 
grain  situation,  which  I  will  not  stop  to  read. 

(Same  is  admitted  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  3 — Marble.") 

Here  is  another  from  Lisbon,  N.  Dak.,  of  Deceml)er  14,  and  the 
writers  say  that  last  week  they  had  to  loan  coal  by  the  sack  out  of  the 
small  supply  they  had  on  hand  for  the  mill  to  keep  people  from  freez- 
ing. They  shipped  from  there  on  October  12  car  No.  9288,  and  this 
car  arrived  in  Duluth  on  the  27th  of  November.  Then,  on  the  27th  of 
October  car  No.  33733  left  there  and  arrived  at  Duluth  on  the  27th  of 
November.  They  say  they  have  an  elevator  at  Englevale,  and  have 
not  been  able  to  get  a  single  car  of  soft  coal  there  all  fall,  although 
tliey  have  standing  orders  with  two  coal  companies  to  ship  as  fa.st  a.; 
possible  since  the  1st  of  October. 


310  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

I  ask  that  this  be  marked  as  an  exhibit. 

(The  same  is  admitted  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No. 
Marble.") 

Here  is  another  from  Sorenson's  Elevator  at  Medbery,  N.  Dak., 
containing  a  statement  to  the  same  general  effect  which  I  will  ask  be 
marked  as  exhibit. 

(The  same  is  admitted  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  5 — 
Marble.") 

Here  is  a  letter  from  the  Farmers'  Co-operative  Elevator  Company, 
of  Oriska,  N.  Dak.,  dated  December  14,  1906,  and  they  state  that  the 
number  of  cars  shipped  up  to  December  14,  1905,  was  G8,  and  to  the 
corresponding  date  this  year  it  is  only  31.  Their  house  has  been 
closed  practically  since  the  1st  of  October.  Since  that  time  they 
have  had  an  occasional  car  and  then  have  been  closed  for  a  week  or 
more.  They  took  a  record  of  car  38086,  loaded  with  flax,  on  Novem- 
ber 12.  It  arrived  at  Duluth  November  28  to  be  unloaded,  and  was 
unloaded  December  3,  and  the  difference  in  the  November  and  De- 
cember options  caused  7  cents  per  bushel  loss.  Cars  loaded  there  are 
left  for  some  time  before  being  taken  away,  and  practically  all  cars 
that  have  been  received  there  have  been  received  since  Thanksgiving 
Day — have  been  unloaded  there.  He  says  that  possibly  there  might 
have  been  an  empty  sent  in  there,  but  that  he  does  not  know  of  it. 

(Same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  6 — 
Marble.") 

Here  is  another  from  the  State  Bank,  of  Lisbon,  N.  Dak.,  sent  by 
Harley  S.  Grover,  cashier,  which  incloses  a  copy  of  a  letter  fi'om  a 
farmer  who  has  been  asked  to  pay  his  note.     This  farmer  says : 

I  promised  to  send  you  some  money  as  soon  as  we  quit  plowing.     We  have  quit 
and  hauled  some  wheat  to  Verona.     It  is  standing  on  the  wagons  in  Verona  for 
about  ten  days.     We  can't  get  room  in  the  elevators  or  get  cars. 
Yours,  truly, 

Thos.  Gaughan. 

(Same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  7 — 
Marble.") 

Here  are  other  letters  from  gentlemen  of  Clifford,  N.  Dak.,  stating 
that  their  town  has  lost  at  least  $25,000  worth  of  business  this  fall  on 
account  of  the  elevators  being  full  to  the  roof  more  than  half  of  the 
time.  They  say  that  they  have  lost  40,000  bushels  of  grain  that  has 
gone  to  other  points  on  account  of  the  shortage  of  cars.  From  Sep- 
tember 1,  1905,  to  December  1,  1905,  they  shipped  out  150  cars  of 
grain.  From  September  1,  1906,  to  December  1,  1906,  they  have 
shipped  out  75  cars  of  grain,  just  one-half  as  many  as  last  year  in  the 
same  length  of  time,  and  during  that  period  of  three  months  last  year 
they  were  blocked  a  ^ood  share  of  the  time. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  8 — 
Marble.") 

I  have  a  letter  here  from  the  secretary  of  the  Iowa  Grain  Dealers' 
Association,  with  a  mass  of  figures  which  he  has  compiled,  showing 
the  situation  in  his  territory. 

I  ask  that  this  letter  be  marked  as  an  exhibit. 

(The  same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  9 — 
Marble.") 

Here  is  a  letter  from  New  Rockford,  N.  Dak.  They  say  that  they 
have  suffered  heavy  losses  by  not  getting  cars  at  that  point  and  that 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  311 

they  have  fewer  cars  this  year  than  last  year.     I  ask  that  this  be  made 
an  exhibit, 

(Same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  10 — 
Marble.") 

W.  B.  BiDDLE,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marbi^.  You  reside  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  an  official  of  the  Rock  Island  Railroad? 

Mr.  TWIDDLE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marbij!.  And  your  office  is  what? 

Mr.  BiDDi^.  Third  vice-president, 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  in  charge  of  traffic? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Traffic  and  a  good  many  affairs  of  the  company;  yes, 
.sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  your  road  had  difficulty  this  fall  in  furnisliing 
cars  to  vour  customers? 

Mr.  Middle.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  difficulty  in  moving  cars  after  they 
were  loaded  ? 

Mr.  BiDDi^.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  that  been  inability  to  start  the  car,  or  slowness 
after  being  started,  or  both  ? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  It  has  been,  to  a  very  great  extent,  inability  to  move 
the  car  to  start  with. 

Mr.  Marble.  Inability  to  get  it  on  a  train? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  do  not  mean  by  that  any  shortage  of  motive  power, 
but  the  situation  in  our  territory  is  more  a  congestion  than  it  is  a  car 
shortage.  I  do  not  mean  by  that  that  there  is  not  and  has  not  been 
for  a  considerable  period  a  shortage  of  cars  in  the  sense  that  we  could 
not  furnish  promptly  all  equipment  ordered,  but  on  the  other  hand 
the  conditions  have  been  such  in  a  very  large  section  of  our  territory 
that  it  was  more  of  a  congestion  and  an  inability  to  dispose  of  the 
cars  already  loaded  than  a  case  of  actual  shortage  of  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  that  because  of  any  actual  shortage  of  motive 
power  ? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  No  shortage  of  motive  power. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  railroads  centering  in  Chicago  have  had  a  good 
deal  of  trouble  through  having  their  cars  used  as  wareiiouses,  have 
they  not? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Yes,  sir;  a  good  deal. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  good  many  cars  have  been  used  for  storage  in  the 
city  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  roads  suffered  from  that? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  wish  you  would  give  us  vour  views  as  to  that. 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Well,  the  conditions  at  the  large  terminals  that  result 
in  this  trouble  are  numerous.  In  the  first  place,  there  are  many 
cases  where  the  facilities  are  inadequate,  both  on  the  part  of  the 
railroads  and  also  on  the  part  of  tne  shippers.  Neither,  perhaps, 
have  kept  pace  with  the  increase  in  business.     The  railroads  have 


312  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

made  strides  in  that  direction  both  in  the  way  of  increased  equip- 
ment, motive  power,  and  facilities,  and  have,  perhaps,  done  all  they 
could  do  in  the  last  few  years  in  that  direction.  The  facilities  that  the 
shippers  use,  in  my  judgment,  have  not  kept  pace  with  the  increase 
in  their  business,  and  I  doubt  if  they  have  increased  and  improved  in 
anything  like  the  rate  that  facilities  have  offered  by  the  railroads. 

Commissioner  Lane.  AMiat  kind  of  facilities  do  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  mean  facilities  for  unloading  and  handling  business. 

Connnissioner  Lane.  Such  as  what? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Well,  warehouses.  On  the  other  hand,  there  is  a  very 
large  class  of  business  at  all  the  terminals  to  handle  on  team  tracks, 
and  conditions,  competitive  or  otherwise,  have  grown  up  on  the  rail- 
roads under  which  excessive  time  is  allowed  for  handling  of  that 
business.  For  instance,  you  take  certiiin  shipments.  There  are  a 
certain  number  of  free  days'  time  allowed  for  disposition — additional 
time  allowed  for  unloading  after  disposition  is  given — and  the  con- 
sequence is  that  the  cars  stand  on  the  team  tracks  here  for  weeks  at 
a  time. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  have  you  got  power  to  remedy  that 
yourself? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Well,  I  suppose  that  we  have.  I  suppose  that  we 
could  arbitrarily  say  that  a  car  must  be  unloaded,  say,  within  twenty- 
four  or  forty-eight  hours  after  it  is  placed  on  tracks  at  the  industry, 
if  not  placed  in  storage,  but  there  are  several  conditions  that  work 
against  that.  In  the  first  place,  it  is  a  condition  that  has  ^own 
and  which  the  railroads  are  themselves  responsible  for,  possibly — - 
perhaps  as  much  as  anyone — in  granting  the  privilege.  In  the 
second  place,  take  a  commodity  like  hay,  and  I  question  if  you  would 
be  able  to  find  storage  capacity  in  the  city  of  Chicago  for  any  volume 
of  freight  of  that  character.  In  addition  to  that,  there  must  be  a 
constant  controversy  with  the  shipper  over  the  demand  for  storage 
charges  when  it  lies  too  long. 

In  the  matter  of  coal,  as  high  as  seven  days  free  time  has  been 

f  ranted.  That  has  largely  been  remedied  in  the  last  thirty  or  sixty 
ays  by  the  railroads  taking  arbitrary  action  and  notifying  coal 
dealers  that  they  would  not  allow  more  than  four  days  free  time. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  do  you  mean  by  seven  days  free 
time?  Does  that  mean  that  the  public  has  the  privilege  of  that  free 
time  and  that  it  is  published  in  the  tariffs? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  It  IS  published  under  the  same  conditions — that  is, 
it  has  been  since  August  28.  Prior  to  that  time  we  granted,  I  think, 
without  any  publication,  and  it  was  a  general  rule  understood  and 
known  by  everybody. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Could  you  get  the  railroads  to  unite?  I 
understand  the  difficulty  between  competitive  lines  is  that  one  line 
will  give  a  privilege  and  then  the  others  must? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  That  is  a  question  that  has  been  discussed  among  the 
railroads  as  all  matters  are.  I  do  not  think  any  general  understand- 
ing has  been  reached,  but  some  railroads  have  taken  arbitrary  action 
and  have  notified  the  patrons  that  regardless  of  the  effect  on  their  busi- 
ness they  would  reduce  this  free  time. 

You  take  it  in  the  matter  of  lumber  shipments.  In  the  movement 
of  lumber,  conditions  have  grown  up  under  which  lumber  originat- 
ing in  lumber  sections  will  be  stopped  in  transit,  for  diversion  or 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  313 

reeonsignment.  I  think,  perhaps,  in  a  great  many  cases  it  has  grown 
out  of  the  fact  that  in  purchasing  lumber  the  shipments  from  the 
manufacturers  start  out  m  transit,  and  the  fellow  will  put  on  some 
fictitious  destination  with  the  idea,  if  possible,  of  deceiving  either  the 
purchaser  or  the  seller  of  the  goods.  This  has,  in  a  way  at  least 
under  these  conditions,  largely  accounted  for  the  four  to  six  or  seven 
days  for  the  car  going  to  the  market  and  the  number  of  days  that  the 
lumber  shipments  are  being  handled  that  the  cars  are  not  moving. 
Then,  additional  time  is  allowed  for  unloading,  and  all  of  this  is  done 
without  any  penalty  so  far  as  denuirrage  or  car  service  is  concerned. 
The  same  is  true  with  the  grain  business;  grain  consigned  to  large 
citii»s — Chiciigo  and  Kansas  City — is  allowed  so  many  days  for  dis- 
position. Additional  time  is  allowed  here  at  some  elevator  or  industry 
or  mill,  and  additional  time  for  unloading,  all  of  which  is  the  result  of 
com|)etitive  conditions  that  have  existed  and  in  which  an  excessive 
free  time  has  l>een  given  on  these  large  conmioditi&s  which  represent  a 
very  large  percentage  of  tlie  total  business  handled  by  the  western 
roads. 

Those  things  are  all  wrong,  in  our  judgment.  That  is,  an  exces- 
sive free  time  has  been  allowed  and  we  are  nuiking  an  attempt  either 
by  conference  with  other  lines  or  individually  in  nuiny  cases — by  in- 
dividual and  arbitrary  action — to  get  away  from  that  as  far  as  we 
can  and  reduce  it  to  what  we  consider  a  reasonable  time. 

Then,  on  the  other  hand,  the  shipper  and  handler  says  that  these 
are  conditions  that  we  have  created  ourselves  and  maintained  for 
ten  or  fifteen  years,  and  that  we  have  no  arbitrary  right  to  change 
them,  and  a  good  deal  of  dissatisfaction  has  been  caused  on  that 
account. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  would  be  a  protection  to  you  if  there  were 
somebody  that  had  power  to  fix  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Piddle.  We  have  the  power  ourselves  and,  in  my  judgment,  we 
will  simplv  have  to  exercise  it  and  grant  what  we  consider  reasonable 
time,  and  if  the  shipper  can  show  that  is  not  right  and  proper,  we  will 
have  to  change  it.     I  think  it  is  to  our  interest  to  do  that. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  think  there  is  no  question  of  that. 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  think  simply  because  of  fearing  the  loss  of  business 
and  stress  of  competition  that  we  have  been  lax  in  handling  these  mat- 
ters. Now,  speakmg  for  ourselves  alone,  we  have  a  very  peculiar  con- 
dition in  the  Southwest.  Both  the  Rock  Island  and  the  Frisco  lines  are 
what  might  be  termed  producing  lines.  They  produce  a  great  deal 
more  business  on  their  lines  than  they  can  furnish  a  market  for. 
There  is  coal,  cotton,  lumber,  and  grain.  Consequently,  if  we  load 
all  the  stuflF  on  our  lines  that  seeks  a  destination  off  of  our  lines,  we 
do  not  get  an  income  of  cars  enough  to  compensate  us  for  the  cars  v»e 
have  to  furnish  for  outbound  business.  Take  it  in  Oklahoma  and 
Indian  Territory,  where  I  consider  the  situation  more  serious  than 
anywhere  else.  I  think  it  is  perhaps  safe  to  say  that  85  per  cent  of 
the  business  originating  in  that  territory  seeks  an  outlet  by  way  of  the 
Gulf  ports — Galveston  and  New  Orleans — especially  Galveston,  be- 
cause that  is  the  port  thev  are  nearest  to.  The  rate  adjustment  is 
favorable,  because  the  roads  naturally  tend  to  send  business  that  way. 

Up  to  about,  I  should  say,  the  middle  of  August,  we  let  our  cai*s  be 
loaded  freely  out  west  on  the  line  for  destinations  generally,  and 
about  the  1st  of  September  we  discovered  that  our  equipment  was 


314  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

rapidly  leaving  us —  leaving  our  rails  and  we  were  not  getting  equip- 
ment in  place  of  it,  or  anything  like  equal  to  it.  So  we  were  obliged 
to  say  that  we  would  not  allow  cars  to  be  loaded  for  points  beyond 
our  rails.  That  was  protection  to  ourselves  and  the  people  located  on 
our  lines;  but  the  result  of  that  was,  of  course,  as  anticipated,  that 
everyone  lost  money  and  they  said  that  their  business  does  not  find  a 
market,  and  they  can  not  handle  their  business.  This  was  equivalent 
to  an  embargo,  and  consequently  we  sent  one  of  our  officials  to  Gal- 
veston, to  confer  with  the  other  lines  reaching  that  port.  We  re- 
ceived their  assurances  that  they  would  be  able  to  handle  the  cars 
promj)tly,  release  them,  and  return  them  to  us  empty  with  reasonable 
dispatch.  In  consequence  of  that  we  raised  the  embargo,  you  might 
say.  We  had,  about  the  1st  of  October,  I  should  say,  removed 
these  restrictions.  On  the  10th  or  12th — about  ten  or  twelve  daj's 
later — we  received  advices  from  those  very  railroad  officials  in  Texas, 
stating  that  they  found  conditions  such  that  they  could  not  make 
good  the  promise  to  us  unless  we  were  willing  to  have  cars  veiy 
seriously  delayed.  They  advised  us  that  they  were  not  able  to  handle 
the  cars  at  Galveston.  Therefore,  we  found  that  there  was  nothing 
left  to  do  except  to  renew  the  conditions  and  the  instructions  we  had 
given  previously. 

In  my  opinion,  we  had  sent  down  about  2,000  cars  by  way  of 
Galveston,  loaded  with  all  sorts  of  commodities — grain,  flour,  cotton, 
etc.,  and  at  the  time  I  started  east,  about  ten  days  ago — I  just 
returned  yesterday — we  had  not,  up  to  that  time,  been  able  to  make 
delivery  to  connections  at  Galveston  of  all  the  cars  there.  The  result 
was  that  we  had  loaded  cars  standing  upon  all  the  side  tracks — con- 
gested terminals  interfering  with  our  handling  of  our  general  busi- 
ness— and  we  have  got  cars  of  stuff  on  our  line  loaded  with  grain  and 
commodities  of  that  character  which  are  not  perishable;  and  then 
there  are  commodities  which  would  be  more  or  less  damaged  if  held 
too  long.  Perhaps  some  of  them  have  been  on  the  way  sixty  days 
loaded,  and  we  have  not  been  able  to  get  rid  of  them.  The  last  ad- 
vices I  had  were  that  there  were  several  thousand  cars  in  the  city  of 
Galveston  unable  to  be  handled,  that  the  yards  were  full,  and  that  the 
vacant  lots  were  all  piled  up  with  cotton,  and  that  the  side  tracks 
north  of  there  were  filled  with  loaded  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  situation  at  Galveston  is  due  to  defi- 
ciency of  terminal  facilities,  is  it  not,  according  to  your  advices  ? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  think,  perhaps  a  combination  of  circumstances — I 
have  not  been  down  to  Galveston  during  this  congestion,  but  I  think 
it  might  be  attributed,  perhaps,  to  insufficient  terminal  facilities,  and 
the  tremendous  and  unexpected  amount  of  business  on  the  lines  south 
of  Fort  Worth,  and  possibly  in  some  measure  to  interferences  with 
vessels  arriving.  If  the  vessels  are  delayed  and  don't  get  in  thei*e,  an 
accumulation  results  before  they  get  in  and  the  carloads  congest,  and 
consequently  it  adds  a  great  deal  to  the  difficulty  of  handling  that. 
I  do  not  know  from  my  own  personal  knowledge  what  the  causes  are 
that  have  led  up  to  this.  I  have  no  doubt  but  that  the  terminals  at 
Galveston  are  insufficient. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  have  a  telegram  stating  that  there  are 
forty-five  vessels  in  the  harbor  waiting  to  be  loaded,  and  that  they 
can  not  get  to  the  wharves  because  they  have  not  got  the  facilities 
there. 


OAR   SHORTAGE.  315 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  can  readily  piee  how  part  of  the  trouble  occurs  down 
there,  particularly  in  the  handling  of  cotton.  That  is  a  very  larffe 
commodity  and  a  very  important  factor,  and  that  is  one  of  the  diffi- 
culties, inability  to  handle  it  promptly.  For  inst4ince,  it  is  scattered 
all  around  in  ditfereut  lots  and  thev  become  separated,  and  I  suppose 
it  results  in  a  ^reat  deal  of  detention  and  delay  in  properly  loading 
and  making  delivery  to  the  vessels.  We  have  had  trouble  at  various 
points  on  the  line,  but  a  very  large  per  cent  of  it  I  believe  is  attribu- 
table to  the  causCvS  I  have  stated.  Of  course,  with  the  tremendous 
amount  of  business  that  thei-e  is  in  the  country  to-dav  no  railroad 
would  be  able  to  handle  every  bit  of  the  business  offered,  as  there  are 
not  facilities  that  you  could  provide,  in  my  judgment,  in  the  way  of 
cars,  engines,  terminals,  sufficient  to  enable  you  to  do  that,  and  then, 
too,  there  are  the  weather  conditions,  and  the  conditions  of  the  road, 
and  all  that  sort  of  thing  that  may  have  a  l)earing  on  it.  I  think. 

Sometimes  congestions  result  from  inability  of  people  to  get  their 
freight  in  regularly,  and  then  time  is  consumed  in  switching.  But  I 
do  not  l)elieve  that  there  will  ever  be  a  time,  with  any  facilities  that 
the  railroad  could  provide,  that  you  could  always,  every  day,  take 
daily  practically  every  shipment  olTored,  but  I  do  think  that  the 
present  conditions  can  be  very  materially  improved. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  think  that  it  the  industries  of  the 
country  grow  in  the  next  few  years  as  rapidly  as  they  have  in  the  last 
few  years,  that  conditions  are  likely  to  get  worse  than  better? 

Mr.  BmoLE.  Well,  I  think  that  there  are  likely  to  be  serious  con- 
gestions for  some  time  to  come. 

You  take  the  question  of  the  nuinner  in  which  the  business  is 
handled  by  very  large  industries.  I  was  told  by  a  representative  of 
the  United  States  Steel  Corporation  the  other  day  that  they  had 
every  available  foot  of  ground  around  their  plant  piled  up  with 
manufactured  commoditievS.  That  is  owing  to  the  fact  that  they 
have  not  facilities — adequate  facilities — for  storage,  and  it  is  not 
their  custom  to  store  this  business.  It  has  been  their  custom  to 
manufactui-e  to  fill  orders,  and,  so  far  as  possible,  to  run  the 
manufactured  articles  right  out  and  load  the  business  right  there 
innnediately  on  the  cars.  That  prevents  any  congestion  so  long  as 
the  equipment  is  always  available  to  t^ike  care  of  the  business,  but  if 
there  were  two  thousand  tons  of  rails  and  the  carriers  were  unable  to 
furnish  cars  at  Pittsburg  or  some  other  territory  of  their  manufac- 
ture, they  might  exj^ect  their  eastern  connections  to  furnish  it  as  long 
as  the  cars  were  in  their  territory.  Then,  if  the  cars  are  not  there 
the  rails  must  be  piled  on  the  ground.  That  is  true  of  any  number  of 
manufactures  of  all  kinds. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  something  that  could  not  be  reme- 
died by  a  larger  supplv  of  cars  on  the  part  of  the  railroads. 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Not  quite.  We  have  on  the  Rock  Island  Railroad  in 
round  numbers  about  37,000  cars,  on  the  last  report  I  saw.  Those 
figures  vary  from  day  to  day.  About  40  to  45  per  cent  of  that  equip- 
ment is  off  of  our  rails.  Now,  we  of  course  have  foreign  cars  on  our 
line  to  overcome  a  part  of  that  disability,  but  not  to  the  extent  that 
our  cars  are  out  of  our  territory. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  locomotives  have  you? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  That  I  could  not  tell  you. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  there  anyone  here  who  can  ? 


316  OAB  SHOBTAGE. 

Mr,  BiDDLE.  I  will  see  that  you  are  furnished  with  that  informa- 
tion.    I  do  not  think  there  is  anyone  in  the  room  that  has  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  what  the  number  of  new  cars 
has  been  that  were  purchased  this  last  year  ? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Well,  we  have  purchased,  I  think — we  have  had  orders 
for  about  7,500  new  cai-s,  but  not  all  of  them  are  yet  delivered. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  provisions  have  you  made  for  next 
year? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  We  have,  I  think,  about  5,000  cars  ordered.  I  think 
all  we  have  been  able  to  place.     I  do  not  know. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  There  is  some  trouble  in  getting  deliveries? 

ISIr.  BiDDLE.  Oh,  yes,  sir.  In  fact  the  car  companies  are  all  behind. 
They  are  behind  on  deliveries  to  us.  I  do  not  know  of  any  additional 
car  that  could  be  ordered,  or  a  greater  number  of  locomotives  during 
the  last  five  years — perhaps  we  might  have  ordered  more,  but  I  mean 
the  incapacity  of  the  car  manufacturing  concerns  of  this  country  to 
supply  them.  Their  capacity  has  been  kept,  so  far  as  I  know,  during 
the  last  five  years  up  to  the  maximum,  and  I  think  that  an  order 
placed  for  locomotives  or  freight  cars  to-day  could  not  be  filled  inside 
of  eight,  nine,  or  ten  months. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  find  any  great  pressure  on  the  line 
excepting  that  cars  are  taken  off  and  held  elsewhere?  You  have 
a  sufficient  number  of  cars  to  handle  the  traffic  on  your  line,  have  you 
not,  if  you  could  get  the  cars  back  ?  I  understand  that  to  be  the  your 
testimony. 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  would  not  say  that  exactly.  I  think  that  if  cars 
could  be  handled  regularly  in  good  faith,  we  could  take  care  of  the 
business  in  pretty  fair  shape  with  the  cars  and  locomotives  we  have 
got.  We  are  adding  to  them.  We  have  ordered  additional  cars  in 
past  years  equal  to  about  10  per  cent  per  year.  We  have  added  that 
in  the  way  of  new  equipment. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  AVhat  have  done  in  the  way  of  new  con- 
struction— new  sidings,  etc.? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  That  work  is  being  carried  on  all  the  time. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  what  proportion  of  that  has 
been  anticipated  for  the  coming  year? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  No;  I  do  not. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Biddle,  could  you  not  furnish  a  state- 
ment commencing  with  1901,  showing  cars  and  locomotive  equip- 
ment at  that  time,  and  showing  the  percentage  of  increase  for  each 
year  as  compared  with  the  percentage  of  increase  of  the  total  ton- 
nage ? 

Mr.  Biddle.  I  will  be  very  glad  to  give  you  the  information,  and 
any  more  that  you  may  want. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  think  it  might  be  well  also  to  furnish  a 
statement  of  the  appropriations  for  betterments  and  additions  to 
track  facilities  and  terminal  facilities. 

Mr.  Biddle.  I  do  not  think  there  is  any  objection  to  that  whatever. 
I  will  ask  the  president  to  give  me  that  information  or  send  it  to  you 
himself. 

I  just  want  to  say  one  thing  more  to  your  Commission,  and  that  is 
this.  So  far  as  our  road  is  concerned,  I  believe  it  is  true  that  while 
this  condition  is  bad,  I  believe  we  have  done  all  we  could  do  in  the 
way  of  meeting  conditions.     For  instance,  if  we  had  a  serious  short- 


OAB  SHORTAQB.  317 

age  of  cars,  as  you  will  have  at  any  time  in  some  localities,  in  Da- 
kota, or  Iowa,  or  Minnesota,  we  have  hauled  the  cars  500  and  1,000 
miles  to  take  care  of  that  particular  business,  and  relieved  the  ele- 
vators which  were  congested  to  allow  them  to  handle  the  business, 
with  full  knowledge  that  perhaps  later  on  we  would  have  to  haul  that 
same  equipment  back  to  the  territory  that  we  brought  it  from  when 
we  took  it  away. 

We  have  retired  from  some  traffic  absolutely  and  voluntarily.  We 
have  declined  for  six  months  to  put  a  single  car  into  export  grain 
business  through  Galveston  or  other  ports,  from  Kansas  City,  Atchi- 
son, Le^ivenworth,  or  Omaha,  for  the  reason  that  there  were  other 
lines  that  reached  from  those  markets  through  those  ports. 

Another  reason  for  refusing  this  business  was  that  the  cars  get 
beyond  our  control  when  they  leave  our  rails,  and  although  you  will 
say  that  we  have  foreign  cai^s  for  those,  we  are  unable  to  get  enough 
to  do  anything  like  as  much  in  the  direction  of  taking  care  of  local 
shippers  who  are  entirely  dependent  on  us  for  transportation  facili- 
ties as  we  should  be  able  to  do  with  the  equipment  we  own.  That  has 
not  been  entirely  unselfish,  as  you  might  say,  because  it  was  done  with 
full  knowledge  that  if  we  did  engage  in  this  export  business  from 
very  large  terminals  like  Kansas  City  and  other  Missouri  River 
points  we  would  lose  our  equipment  and  thereby  lose  business  and 
revenue,  but  I  think  that  if  we  had  gone  freely  into  that  business  we 
would  have  had  a  very  much  worse  condition  than  we  have  got  to-day 
so  far  as  the  elevator  man  or  the  grain  man  at  the  local  point  is  con- 
cerned. If  this  had  not  been  the  policy  of  our  railroad  why  of 
course  they  would  have  taken  the  cars  from  us.  This  is  forcing  them 
to  rely  on  the  other  lines.  I  want  to  simply  say  that  in  adopting  that 
policy  we  thought  it  was  the  best  for  all  concerned. 

Without  this  policy  the  condition  of  the  elevator  men  and  the  grain 
men  at  the  local  points  would  be  far  woi-se  than  it  has  been  under  the 
policy  that  we  have  pursued. 

We  went  frankly  to  the  grain  shippers  and  told  them  what  we  pro- 
posed to  do,  and  of  coui'se  they  objected  very  strongly.  They  said  we 
were  forcing  thom  to  rely  on  other  lines.  We  said  it  was  the  best 
i)olicy  that  could  l>e  adopted,  and  that  we  were  going  to  resort  to  it 
because  it  was  the  l)est  for  all  concerned. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  it  a  fair  statement  of  that  to  say  that  you 
have  been  compelled,  by  lack  of  cooperation  on  the  part  of  other 
railroads  to  actually  refuse  to  perforin  some  of  the  obligations  that 
rest  upon  you  as  a  common  carrier. 

Mr.  BiDDi.E.  I  do  not  know  that  you  could  say  that  it  was  entirely 
due  to  lack  of  cooperation.  You  have  reference,  I  presume,  to  our 
inability  to  handle  the  business  to  (Jalveston  and  get  the  cars  back? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes;  that  is  what  I  had  in  mind. 

Mr.  BmuLE.  Certainly  there  has  been  inability  on  their  part.  I  do 
not  know  that  they  are  in  any  way  to  blame  for  it.  I  do  not  know 
that  they  could  have  arranged  matters  differently  in  any  way  at  all. 
They  have  had  their  own  business  to  look  after,  and  their  own 
patrons,  and  it  certainly  is  true  that  they  have  l)een  utterly  unable  to 
jtssist  us  in  disposing  of  this  business  that  I  speak  of. 

There  is  an  order  out  to-dav  from  these  lines  down  there  that  they 
won't  receive  anything  but  live  stock  and  perishable  freight.    This 


318  CAB  SHOBTAQE. 

amounts  to  an  admission  from  most  of  the  lines  that  we  have  to  de- 
liver business  to  at  Fort  Leavenworth  that  they  can  not  take  any 
business  from  us. 

Commissioner  Lane.  \Miat  remedy  have  you  ^ot  for  a  condition 
Fuch  as  that?  Of  course,  the  country  will  not  submit  to  the  continu- 
ance of  a  condition  of  that  kind,  and  they  look  first  to  the  railroad 
men  to  discover  a  remedy  or  some  method  by  which  the  present  con- 
dition can  be  relieved  and  cured. 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Well,  I  think — I  can  not  give  you  any  suggestion,  I 
presume,  that  would  be  particularly  valuable  as  to  any  other  line 
beyond  our  own,  because  I  am  not  so  familiar  with  their  condition.  T 
am  thoroughly  satisfied  that  there  is  a  lack  of  terminal  facilities  at 
Galveston — that  the  terminal  facilities  there  are  entirely  inadequate 
to  handle  the  business  to-day.  I  believe  that  if  that  condition  were 
remedied  and  our  connections  from  Fort  AVorth  south  were  in  better 
shape  to  handle  this  business  for  us  that  we  would  have  had  no  more 
than  the  ordinary  complaint  that  3'^ou  would  get  at  any  time  during  the 
grain  shipping  season  as  to  inadequate  service.  That  entire  condition, 
so  far  as  our  own  line  is  concerned,  in  another  year  will  be  remedied. 
We  will  have  our  own  rails  into  Galveston  by  the  time  that  another 
grain  shipping  season  comes  around.  What  we  will  have  done  by 
that  time  in  the  way  of  terminal  facilities  of  our  own  there  I  can  not 
tell  you  now.  I  will  undertake  to  give  you  such  information,  but  I 
can  not  do  it  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  elevators,  any  of  them,  or  any  considerable 
number  of  them,  on  your  line  been  blockaded  for  lack  of  cars  at  any 
time  during  this  crop  season? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  think,  with  the  exception  of  the  situation  that  I  told 
you  of  in  Oklahoma,  I  do  not  know  of  any  place  where  it  is  true  to- 
day. If  they  have  grain  in  their  elevators  going  to  Galveston  it  has 
to  stay,  for  we  can  not  furnish  all  the  cars  for  it,  because  by  doing 
that  we  would  be  simply  furnishing  cars  that  we  could  not  get  back, 
and  in  that  manner  harming  our  own  shippers.  With  the  exception 
of  early  in  the  season,  when  a  part  of  the  elevators  in  Dakota  on  our 
own  line  were  blockaded — and  at  that  time  we  hauled  cars  from 
Arkansas  up  there  to  take  care  of  it — I  do  not  think  there  has  been  any 
serious  or  protracted  congestion  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  Oklahoma  situation  is  not  so  much  due  to  lack  of 
cars,  but  rather  to  terminal  trouble  and  diversion  trouble  ? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  think  so.  I  think  we  could  have  given  reasonable 
service  in  the  handling  of  that  grain  business  down  there  if  the  other 
roads  had  been  open  and  the  terminal  facilities  better. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  South  Dakota  people  were  quickly  relieved 
by  the  shipment  of  empties? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  elevators  on  your  line,  except  those  in  Okla- 
homa, been  forced  to  pile  grain  on  the  ground? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Well,  I  have  not  heard  of  any.  I  have  heard  no  com- 
plaint of  that  kind  along  our  line  in  the  Northwest.  I  have  not  any 
doubt  whatever  that  any  quantity  of  grain  is  stored  on  the  ground 
in  Oklahoma,  com  in  particular. 

Mr,  Marble.  How  many  foreign  cars  are  on  your  line? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  That  I  can  not  say,  because  it  is  a  condition  which 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  319 

changes  from  day  to  day,  and  I  have  not  seen  the  reports  for  two 
weeks.    As  I  say,  I  have  been  away. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  that  the  number  of  your  cars  that  you  have 
lost  is  greater  than  the  number  of  foreign  cars  held  by  you  * 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  that  increased  your  difficulties? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Oh,  yes.  That  just  decreases  the  equipment  that  is 
avaihible  to  precisely  the  extent  of  the  difference. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  reason  I  ask  is  that  we  find  the  Northern  Pacific 
with  a^x)ut  C.OOO  more  foreign  cars  than  it  has  lost  of  its  own,  and  the 
Great  Northern  with  about  2,000  foreign  cars  more  than  it  has  lost 
of  its  own,  and  they  seem  to  be  having  more  trouble  than  usual. 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  It  is  not  true  with  us.  We  have  more  care  of  our  own 
off  of  our  rails  than  we  have  foi*eign  cars  on  our  rails,  and  that  is 
always  true  on  our  line.  It  is  owing  to  the  fact  that  there  is  so  much 
of  our  business  that  we  oui"selves  produce.  We  are  a  producing  line, 
and  consequently  it  is  the  fact  that  our  cars  largely  go  off  our  own 
rails. 

Mr.  Marble.  AVill  you  furnish  us  with  a  statement,  say  for  two 
months,  showing  the  number  of  foreign  cars  held  by  you  and  the 
numl)er  of  cars  of  your  own  held  by  other  roads? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Yes,  sir;  I  will  be  glad  to. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  car  balance  sheet,  I  believe? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Yes,  sir.    What  period  would  you  like  that  to  refer  to? 

Mr.  Marble.  AVell,  say  the  last  half  of  this  current  year,  if  it  is 
not  too  much  trouble. 

Mr,  BiDDLE.  No;  I  can  give  you  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  do  you  say  are  being  used  as  ware- 
houses in  the  city  of  Chicago  now  ? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  have  not  the  slightest  idea.  I  could  not  very  well 
tell  ^ou  the  number  of  our  own  cars,  because  I  have  not  that  infor- 
mation. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  is  it  a  great  many,  enough  to  be  a  factor  in  this 
difficulty? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Oh,  yes,  indeed. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  great  many? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  trouble  wilh  cars  being  held  at  the  Atlantic 
seaports  for  storage  purposes? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  do  not  know  as  to  that.  After  a  car  leaves  our  hands, 
destined  to  an  eastern  road,  we  do  not  know  anything  about  its  dispo- 
sition, what  disposition  is  made  of  it,  whether  it  is  in  local  service  or 
whether  held  in  terminals  or  what. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  know  that  you  don't  get  it  back? 

Mr.  Bii>DLE.  We  simply  know  that  we  do  not  get  it  back. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  railroad  men  any  remedy  in  contemplation 
for  that  evil  of  diversion  ? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Not  so  far  as  I  know,  except  that  the  penalty  for  the 
detention  of  foreign  cars  had  been  increased  by  the  lines. 

Mr.  AIarble.  Do  you  think  it  has  been  increased  enough,  as  com- 
pared with  the  value  of  the  car  in  the  busy  season,  to  have  any  effect? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Oh,  yes;  I  think  it  will  have  a  decided  effect. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  vou  think  the  cliango  from  25  cents  to  50  cents 
will  secure  the  return  of  the  equipment  < 


320  CAR  SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  do  not  know  that  it  will  secure  the  return  of  the 
equipment  in  all  cases,  but  I  think  it  will  have  a  decided  effect  on  the 
situation. 

Mr.  MARBiiE.  It  will  get  more  money  for  the  use  of  the  car  for  the 
road  owning  it?     Is  that  what  you  mean? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  do  not  mean  that.  I  think  it  will  result  in  our  cars 
coming  back  home  with  greater  expediency  than  they  have  here- 
tofore. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  your  road  at  all  in  favor  of  the  remedy  of  pooling 
a  portion  of  your  equipment  with  connecting  lines? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  have  not  discussed  that  with  our  people  at  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  AVell,  have  you  an  opinion  that  you  care  to  express? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  No,  I  have  not ;  because  I  have  not  considered  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  busy  seasons,  when  you  want  to  move  large  ton- 
nage, do  you  increase  the  tonnage  attached  to  your  engines  or 
reduce  it? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  No ;  it  ought  to  be  about  the  same.  For  the  purposes 
of  most  railroads,  on  our  own  lines,  at  any  rate,  it  is  our  purpose  to 
give  reasonable  service.  Of  course,  the  engine  can  carry  a  less 
number  of  tons  of  live  stock  or  perishable  freight  per  train  than  it 
can  of  grain  or  coal.  The  engines  are  rated,  and  that  rating  is  not 
supposed  to  change  with  the  conditions  of  heavy  or  light  tonnage, 
except  as  the  weather  conditions  force  you  to  reduce  your  tonnage 
upon  the  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  do  I  understand  you  that  all  the  time  you  load 
your  engines  so  that  they  can  get  over  the  road  without  delay  ? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  We  are  supposed  to. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  follow  the  policy  of  some  of  the  North- 
western roads  of  extreme  tonnage? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  No,  sir;  we  do  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  run  on  a  different  plan? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  We  try  to  get  proper  results  and  give  adequate 
service.  It  does  not  make  any  difference  to  the  shipper  whether 
500  tons  or  5,000  tons  is  hauled  by  an  engine,  provided  always  rea- 
sonable time  is  made,  satisfactory  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  that  you  could  give  better  service  if  you 
increased  the  tonnage  of  your  trains  from  what  you  are  hauling? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  do  not  imagine  so.  I  imagine  that  our  people  are 
striving  to  get  the  best  results  possible  and  furnish  the  best  service, 
considering  all  factors,  economy  in  operation,  and  so  forth. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  your  road  at  any  time  within  the  last  six  or  seven 
years  tried  the  policy  of  increasing  the  tonnage  in  order  to  obtain  a 
greater  number  of  tons  per  train  mile? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  could  only  speak  from  hearsay  about  that  because  I 
have  only  been  connected  with  the  property  for  about  two  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  information  that  the  road  did  ever  do 
that? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  think  all  the  western  roads  did  try  that  policy,  or 
adopt  it  sometime  ago. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  abandoned  it? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  Generally  speaking,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  found  they  could  not  give  as  good  service  to  the 
public  ? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  321 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  I  imagine  that  was  the  reason  for  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  got  better  resuhs  in  ton  miles  per  train  mile, 
but  the  method  did  not  result  in  as  good  service?  Is  that  a  fair  state- 
ment ? 

Mr.  BmoLE.  My  own  judgment  is  that  the  l>est  ivsults  are  obtained 
both  from  an  operating,  and  every  other  standpoint,  by  not  overload- 
ing your  engine. 

JVIr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  trouble  with  the  coal  situation  on  your 
line  ? 

Mr.  BmoLE.  Nothing  that  I  knoAv  of,  except  what  I  have  seen  in  the 
paper,  while  I  was  on  my  way  back  from  the  P2ast.  I  have  not  yet 
had  any  opportunity  to  inipiii-e.  In  reference  to  some  points  in 
southwestern  Kansas,  I  made  some  inquiry  before  I  came  over  here, 
but  I  did  not  have  an  opportunity  to  incjuire  further  than  that,  and  I 
do  not  know  of  any  complaint. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all. 

The  witness  was  excused.) 

E.  W.  McKexxa,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified 
as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  name  is  E.  W.  McKenna? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marbije.  You  reside  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  With  what  railroad  are  vou  connected? 

Mr.  McKenna.  The  Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  office  do  you  hold  with  that  company? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Second  vice-president. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  charge  of  operation? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  road  short  of  motive  power? 

Mr.  McKenna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  at  all  short  of  cars? 

Mr.  McKenna.  The  demand  for  cars  is  gi*eat.  It  is  a  demand  that 
vaj-ies  with  our  dull  and  busy  seasons.  We  are  short  of  cars,  but  not 
any  more  than  we  have  been  at  any  time  during  the  rush  season  in  the 
past  twenty  years. 

I  desire  to  qualify  that  answer  in  connection  with  our  motive  power. 
We  are  short  of  motive  power  on  some  of  our  divisions  for  a  day  or 
so,  but  that  situation  is  relieved  immediately  by  obtaining  assistance 
from  some  other  part  of  the  road.  As  a  general  rule  we  uie  not  short 
of  motive  power. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  mean  that  the  system,  as  a  system,  is  not  short  of 
motive  power? 

Mr.  McKenna.  The  system  is  not  short  of  motive  power;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  consider,  do  you  not,  that  you  are  giving  as  good 
service  this  fall  as  you  have  at  any  time  during  the  last  twenty 
years? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  think,  with  the  exception  of  the  situation  involv- 
ing the  grain  crop  of  the  Northwest,  that  we  are  giving  better  average 
service  than  before. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  the  elevators  on  your  line  been  blocked  or  out 
of  the  market  at  all  this  year? 

S.  Doc.  333, 59-2 21 


322  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  do  not  recollect  liaving  any  instances  of  com- 
plaints in  that  respect.  It  may  be  possible  that  immediately  after 
wheat  thrashing  in  Minnesota  there  may  have  been  some  complaint, 
due  to  the  fact  that  there  was  a  very  large  supply  immediately  after 
the  wheat  was  harvested,  and  the  movement  commenced  from  three 
to  four  weeks  later  than  the  average  movement.  The  result  of  that 
was  that  a  great  number  of  cars  had  been  accumulated  in  the  grain 
territory  for  the  purpose  of  hauling  the  grain  east  and  those  cars, 
owing  to  the  delay,  had  to  be  hauled  east  empty  to  take  merchandise 
westbound,  and  I  think  for  a  short  time  there  was  a  considerable 
pressure  on  our  elevators,  although  I  do  not  recall  any  instances 
where  any  of  the  houses  had  to  be  closed  up. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  hauled  empties  west,  and  then  hauled  them  away 
from  the  grain  fields  because  the  crop  was  not  ready  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  We  hauled  them  empty  clear  from  the  Missouri 
River  to  Chicago  and  Milwaukee. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  they  went  back  loaded  and  brought  back  grain  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Came  back  with  grain. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  situation  was  quickly  relieved  ? 

Mr.  McKJENNA.  Well,  it  took  about  two  weeks  to  turn  the  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  any  trouble  in  moving  cars  after  they 
were  loaded  at  any  country  point  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  any  trouble  with  extreme  length  of 
time  taken  in  transit  over  your  road  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Oh,  there  may  have  been  exceptional  instances  of 
an  individual  car  here  and  there  getting  out  of  line,  and  being  de- 
layed; but  generally  we  have  had  no  trouble  in  moving  our  traffic, 
with  the  exception  of  some  small  periods  of  congestion  in  connection 
with  our  terminals  in  Chicago.  We  have  had  no  trouble  at  Mil- 
waukee, Minneapolis,  or  our  other  freight  concentrating  centers. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^Vhat  is  the  length  of  j'^our  grain  haul,  made  by  your 
road  ? 

Mr.  McKjjnna.  I  could  not  answer  that  question  accurately,  but 
my  reccollection  is  that  it  would  average  somewhere  between  200  and 
400  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  To  Chicago  or  Milwaukee  from  the  west? 

Mr.  McKenna.  As  I  say,  it  would  probably  average  some  place 
between  300  and  400  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  AVhat  do  you  consider  a  fair  time  for  a  loaded  car  to 
make  the  300  miles  after  being  started  from  the  originating  point, 
considering  the  delays  that  you  consider  fair  and  normal  at  the 
division  points,  until  it  is  notified  to  the  receiver  as  being  in  at  the 
receiving  point? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Such  a  car  should  move  at  the  rate  of  100  miles 
per  twelve  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  One  hundred  miles  per  twelve  hours,  or  200  miles 
per  day? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir;  that  also  includes  division-point  delays. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  actually  give  such  service  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  think  we  closely  approximate  it  on  our  cars  in 
transit. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  very  far  short  of  it? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  323 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  think  not.  I  have  never  prepared  any  statistics 
covering  that,  except  our  statistics  of  train  movements,  and  that  aver- 
aged from  9  to  15  miles  per  hour,  and  we  check  up  our  division 
f)oint.s  each  day.  Every  moining  I  receive  a  report  of  the  cai-s  de- 
aycd  in  transit,  of  any  cause,  twt'uty-four  or  forty-eiglit  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  cH>nsi(ler  an  average  of  twelve  houi*s'  delay  at 
each  division  point  excessive? 

Mr.  McKenxa.  I  certainly  should. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  that  your  average  daily  car  movement 
on  all  commodities,  or  just  on  grain? 

Mr.  McIvENNA.  On  all  comnuwlities.  Our  sto<"k  movement,  and 
high-class  merchandise  west  bound,  and  meat  traffic  east,  would  move 
much  more  rapidly  than  that. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Wo  have  tosdinony  from  oi)erationg  officers 
before  us,  to  the  effect  that  on  grain  shipments  ton  days  is  a  reason- 
able time,  including  the  passing  through  terminals,  of  a  car  of  grain 
to  travel  300  miles. 

Mr.  MrlvENNA.  Including  disposition  of  the  load  at  the  toruiinal? 

Mr.  Marbi^.  Delay  at  intermediate  division  points  only  is 
included. 

Mr.  McKenna.  Well,  that  is  a  matter  of  practice,  and  of  course 
it  varies  on  different  railroads. 

Conunissioner  Harlan.  It  would  not  take  you  that  long  on  your 
railroad? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Very  decidedly  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  it  in  competitive  territory? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  imagine  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  be  afraid  to  try  it? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  think  in  times  like  these  competition  does  not  cut 
very  much  figure,  because  we  are  all  working  just  as  hard  as  we  can 
to  handle  the  traffic  that  is  thrust  upon  us.  It  is  not  a  matter  of 
going  out  and  seeking  business  now,  it  is  a  matter  simply  of  digesting 
that  which  is  offered  to  us. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  engines  have  you  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  can  not  answer  that  question  accurately,  but  I 
think  about  1,100. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  how  many  of  them  are  out  of  service 
or  in  the  repair  shop,  or  what  is  called  the  ""  back  shop?  " 

Mr.  McKenna.  On  my  last  report,  according  to  that  4.2  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  an  extraordinarily  low  per  cent? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  think  it  is. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  would  be  the  normal  percentage  at  this  time  of 
the  year? 

Mr.  McKenna.  That  is  the  normal  percentage  on  our  railroad. 
Our  shops,  however,  are  equipped  to  take  care  of  10  per  cent  of  our 
equipment. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  far  apart  are  your  shops  that  can  make  the 
ordinary  small  repairs  to  an  engine? 

Mr.  McKenna.  We  have  three  principal  shops — Milwaukee,  85 
miles  from  here;  Minneapolis,  4'20  miles  from  here,  and  Dubuque, 
about  ICO  milos  from  Chicago. 

Then,  at  each  of  the  division  points,  the  shops  are  ofpiippod  with 
a  few  light  tools,  so  that  they  cau  make  the  ordinary  repairs,  the 
so-called  running  repairs. 


324  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  so  fixed  at  each  division  point  as  to  be  able 
to  make  the  ordinary  running  repairs? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir;  and  those  division  points  woiild  average 
a  very  small  per  cent  over  100  miles  distant  from  each  other. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  yoti  know  what  percentage  of  your  engines  are 
under  repair,  including  those  that  are  laid  up  say  for  twelve  hours 
for  light  repairs,  from  day  to  day  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  This  4.2  per  cent  that  I  speak  of  covers  all  loco- 
motives that  are  out  of  service  for  repairs. 

Mr.  Marble.  "Whether  for  a  long  or  short  time? 

Mr.  McKenxa.  That  includes  heavy  roundhouse  repairs  and  heavy 
machine-shop  repairs.  All  of  our  engines,  practically,  in  all  branches 
of  the  service  are  under  repair  at  the  end  of  their  runs,  to  a  sniall 
extent.  Every  engine  that  comes  in  has  more  or  less  work  to  be 
done  upon  it,  and  there  are  men  there  for  the  purpose  of  doing  it. 
Sometimes  this  work  may  amount  to  an  hour's  labor,  sometimes  two 
horn's,  and  sometimes  it  may  run  into  a  matter  of  ten  or  twelve  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  how  many  foreign  cars  are  on  vour 
line? 

Mr.  McKenna.  About  14,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  manv  of  vour  cars  are  on  other  lines? 

Mr.  McKenna.  A  little"  less  than  14,000. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  little  less  than  14,000. 

Mr.  McKenna.  The  balance,  during  all  this  fall,  has  been  in  our 
favor.     AVe  have  looked  to  it  to  see  that  it  was. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  taken  care  of  that? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir;  we  have. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  remedy  to  suggest  for  car  diveision? 

Mr.  McKenna.  A  number  of  railroads,  one  of  which  was  the 
Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul,  on  the  1st  day  of  December 
entered  into  an  agreement,  known  as  the  diversion  agreement.  The 
amount  of  25  cents  per  day  for  the  use  of  the  cars  as  between  rail- 
roads— which  means  25  cents  a  day  per  car  as  you  probably  know- 
was  increased  to  50  cents  per  day,  with  the  hope  that  it  would  result 
in  the  return  to  each  railroad  company  of  its  own  cai"s.  At  this 
time  a  number  of  other  railroads  have  entered  into  what  is  known" 
as  the  "  diversion  agreement."  The  oifect  of  the  per  diem  arrange- 
ment has  practically  pooled  the  cars  of  the  United  States. 

Under  the  old  rule,  a  car  received  from  a  connecting  line,  with  a 
load  for  a  point  on  that  railroad,  was  taken  to  that  point,  and  then 
loaded  back  to  the  railroad  which  furnished  the  car  at  that  point,  or 
an  intermediate  point,  or  otherwise  it  was  delivered  empty.  Under 
the  per  diem  arrangement  the  effect  was  to  pool  the  cai-s.  You  are 
not  held  to  any  responsibility  for  keeping  the  cars  of  other  lines,  and 
the  diversion  agreement  was  entered  into  for  the  purpose  of  stimu- 
lating the  efforts  of  railroads  to  return  the  cars  to  the  roads  which 
own  them.  The  diversion  rule  is,  that  if  a  car  is  loaded  away  from 
the  direction  of  home  there  shall  be  a  penalty  applied  to  the  railroad 
which  makes  that  diversion  of  $5  for  that  transaction.  The  rule  is 
that  cars  must  be  loaded  home  or  in  the  direction  of  home.  They 
may  be  sent  to  a  point  beyond  the  point  at  which  they  are  released, 
to  secure  a  load,  but  it  must  be  to  a  point  on  the  home  road,  or  via 
the  home  road. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  325 

Comniissionor  TIarf-an.  You  moan  it  must  be  sent  home  or  to  a 
point  Ixivond  { 

Mr.  McKenxa.  It  may  be  sent  home  or  to  a  point  Wvontl  the  initial 
road.  The  matter  of  c'heckin«f,  that  is  in  a  vervi  hir^e  tU'*rree  in  the 
hands  of  the  raih'oads,  because  each  transfer  of  a  car  from  one  road 
to  another  is  covered  by  junction  repoits  which  ^o  to  tlie  owner  of 
the  car.  That  rule,  liowever,  has  not  now  been  in  effect  long  enough  so 
that  its  workings  can  he  thoroughly  understood.  It  is  now  simply 
being  tried. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  this  penalty  of  $5  which  you  mention  for  the  single 
transaction,  or  is  it  $5  per  day? 

Mr.  McKexna.  Five  dollars  for  the  transaction. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  that  is  large  enough,  in  the  busy  season 
of  the  year,  to  have  any  effect  ? 

Mr.  McKexna.  We  are  very  much  "  up  in  the  air "  about  that. 
We  do  not  know  how  it  is  going  to  work  out.  A  number  of  loads 
went  into  it — the  Pennsvlvania  lines  east  and  west  of  Pittsburg,  the 
Erie,  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio,  and  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  St. 
Paul,  which,  I  believe,  is  the  only  road  in  the  West  that  went  into  it. 

Mr.  Marbijj.  Is  it  or  is  it  not  true  that  a  car  in  the  busy  season  is 
wortli  $8  or  $0  or  $10  a  day  to  the  road  which  uses  it?  Do  you  not 
think  that  so  small  a  penalty  will  not  have  the  desired  effect? 

Mr.  McKexxa.  I  do  not  l)elieve  that  the  earnings  will  produce 
that  value  for  any  car.  I  think  it  could  Ik;  made  worth  that  if  we 
could  get  an  adjustment  of  terminal  facilities  and  receiving  facilities 
for  taking  care  of  the  traflic,  and  I  think  that  about  half  that  sum 
that  you  mention  is  about  right  in  the  busy  times. 

Mr.  Marbij:.  Then,  don't  you  think  that  this  $5  penalty  is  likely 
to  result  only  in  an  increased  income  for  the  ownei-s  of  the  car,  the 
car  bein^  worth  as  much  per  day  as  the  amount  of  the  penalty  for  the 
transaction  ? 

Mr.  McKexxa.  No;  my  impression  is  that  that  will  have  the  effect 
of  returning  the  cars  more  promptly,  because  I  know  that  the  prac- 
tice of  our  own  road  when  that  arrangement  was  entered  into — the 
instructions  have  been  that  that  agreement  must  be  explicitly  carried 
out. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  now  but  in  its  experimental  stage,  and  you  are 
watching  the  effect? 

Mr.  McKexxa.  Yes;  we  are  imposing  a  i)enalty  now  to  bring 
about  what  we  used  to  do  for  the  sake  of  plain  dealing  and  common 
honesty. 

Mr.  Marble.  Will  you  tell  us,  from  the  standpoint  of  your  road, 
what  you  know  as  to  the  use  of  cars  as  warehouses  in  this  city,  or  any 
other  place  where,  according  to  your  observation,  that  practice  has 
been  in  vogue? 

Mr.  McKexna.  Well,  the  free  time  which  is  gi*anted  and  which  has 
grown  up  for  some  years  on  various  commodities  detracts  very  greatly 
from  the  earning  power  of  the  car  to  its  owners.  Certain  commodi- 
ties, as,  for  instance,  hay,  coal,  wheat,  and  all  sorts  of  grain  have  the 
advantage  of  that  free  time.  There  are  certain  rules  governing  the 
handling  of  cars  which  have  grown  up  as  the  result  of  competition 
between  railroads,  that  T  suppose  are  now  really  a  part  of  our  system 
of  handling  freight,  that  it  would  be  difficult  to  do  away  with. 


326  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Th.it  also  results  or  amounts  to  a  discrimination  as 
between  shippers,  some  shippers  having  the  privilege  of  using  the 
cars  as  warehouses,  and  other  shippers  being  unable  to  secure  cars  at 
all?       . 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  do  not  believe  it  would  go  to  the  extent  of  dis- 
crimination. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  do  not  mean  intentionally,  but  that  is  what  the  car 
shortage  means.     Perhaps  that  is  where  it  commences. 

Mr.  McKenna.  It  places  a  burden  on  all  the  grain  of  the  country, 
if  you  please  to  look  at  it  in  that  manner;  but  it  is  a  situation  in 
which  the  shipper  is  quite  as  much  interested  as  the  carrier  in  stimu- 
lating the  efficiency  of  the  car  movement  to  the  highest  point.  It  is 
quite  evident  that  the  receiver  of  freight  has  not  enhanced  his  facili- 
ties to  the  degree  that  the  railways  have,  because  the  per  diem  car 
movement — the  general  statistics  will  show  it — ^lias  constantly  de- 
creased in  miles  per  day.  I  think  that  statistics  will  show  that  for  a 
number  of  years  this  has  steadily  grown  less. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  there  is  any  fair  ground  for  hoping  that 
of  themselves  the  shippers  will  end  the  useof  cars  as  warehouses?  Is 
there  any  hope  that  the  shippers  who  are  now  using  the  cars  as  ware- 
houses will  abandon  that  practice,  provide  warehouse  facilities  for 
themselves,  and  release  the  cars,  unless  the  roads  take  some  action? 

^fr.  McKenna.  Well,  I  believe  that  there  is  a  better  condition 
coming  about.  The  roads  have  already  taken  action.  The  American 
Railway  Association,  at  its  last  meeting,  appointed  a  committee  called 
the  "car-efficiency  committee."  Mr.  Arthur  Hale,  of  the  Baltimore  and 
Ohio  Railroad,  is  the  chairman  of  it,  and,  acting  upon  a  suggestion  of 
his  own,  and  his  OAvn  initiative,  he  is  attempting  to  have  committees 
of  the  receivers — large  receivers  of  commodities  in  various  business 
centers — formed,  so  that  they  may  come  together  with  the  railroad 
men  on  this  committee  that  I  have  named,  in  the  effort  to  investigate 
and  remedy  these  conditions.  The  purpose  of  the  committee  is  to 
ascertain  what  steps  can  be  taken  for  the  betterment  of  the  conditions, 
and  for  the  benefit  of  tl>e  entire  country.  I  am  very  hopeful  that 
some  benefit  will  come  from  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  say  that  you  are  in  the  investigation  stage 
of  providing  a  remedy  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  investigation  being  vigorously  prosecuted? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir;  so  far  as  I  have  been  able  to  ascertain  or 
judge  Mr.  Hale  is  doing  everything  in  his  power  to  bring  that  result 
about.  He  so  told  me  when  I  last  saw  him.  People  connected  with 
the  board  of  trade  here,  however,  are  of  the  opinion  that  he  will  Ix^ 
unable  to  accomj^lish  very  nnich. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  do  you  say  are  being  used  as  ware- 
houses here  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Any  estimate  that  I  would  give  in  answer  to  that 
question  would  be  simply  a  rough  guess.  I  should  say  that  the  St. 
Paul  road  brings  into  Cliicago  m)m  1,200  to  1,400  cars  a  day.  The 
average  time  that  these  cars  are  detained  in  Chicago  is  about  seven 
days.     That  at  least  is  a  basis  for  calculation. 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  takes  about  seveil  days  after  a  car  arrivas 
in  Chicago  before  it  can  be  unloaded  and  go  out  ? 


Car  shortage.  327 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  an  average  of  a  little  less  than 
tsix  days,  but  I  think  that  the  prevailing  average  is  about  seven  days. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  would  be  about  1,400  cars? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes;  but  that  is  simplv  an  approximation.  I  can, 
however,  get,  and  will  gladly  give,  you  the  exact  figures. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  would  like  very  much  to  have  them. 

Mr.  MARiiLE.  ^Vhat  do  you  say  would  be  a  fair  detention  here  in 
Chicago,  or  what  would  be  fair  and  right  as  to  the  length  of  time 
that  such  cars  should  be  detained  here? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Oh,  I  suppose  that  probably  that  would  be  about 
four  days.  Under  average  conditions  I  prasume  that  from  four  to 
five  days  would  be  sufficient.  That  would  release  in  Chicago,  or  that 
would  be  equal,  I  should  say,  in  Chicago  to  about  75,000  car  days 
per  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  Seventy-five  thousand  car  days  per  day  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  YeSj  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  this  city  alone? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  yob  had  any  trouble  with  the  detention  of  your 
cars  at  the  seaboard  for  storage  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  know  in  a  general  way  that  there  has  been  a 
great  detention  in  that  locality.  Whether  it  has  been  one  which 
applied  to  our  cars  or  not  I  do  not  know  at  present. 

Air.  Marble.  In  the  loading  of  your  engines,  do  you  follow  the 
practice  of  the  northwestern  roads,  as  to  their  heavy  loads? 

Mr.  McKenna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^Vhy  do  you  not  do  that? 

Mr.  McKenna.  The  only  earning  factor  on  a  railroad  is  the  loco- 
motive. The  money  that  goes  into  the  treasurv  is  the  result  of  the 
work  of  the  locomotive.  Ordinary  business  judgment  would  require 
that  you  get  all  of  the  work  out  of  your  locomotives  that  you  can, 
consistent  with  the  collateral  facts  and  conditions  surrounding  it. 
AVe  load  our  locomotives  to  a  fair  limit^  so  that  they  can  run  over  the 
road  and  carry  their  loads.  We  load  in  summer  maybe  40  per  cent 
greater  than  we  do  in  winter.  The  local  conditions  are  largely  con- 
trolling. The  means  to  meet  those  conditions  are  in  the  hands  of  the 
officials  of  the  local  divisions  each  day.  It  turns  upon  the  weather 
conditions,  the  condition  of  the  locomotive  itself,  or  any  of  the  sur- 
rounding conditions.  We  expect  from  them  on  the  average  about 
10  miles  per  hour. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  expect,  including  delays  in  the  division  points, 
al)out  8  miles  per  hour  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Well,  yes ;  possibly. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  100  miles  every  twelve  hours? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Let  me  see.  Let  me  be  sure  that  I  understand  you. 
Do  you  mean  from  the  initial  movement  of  the  cars? 

Air.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  McKenna.  Well,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  100  miles  every  twelve  hours? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  do  you  so  load  as  to  get  that  performance? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir ;  we  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  you  should  load  heavier,  you  would  get  figures 
showing  more  tons  carried  per  train  mile,  of  course? 


328  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  would  be  the  effect?  Would  you  give  as  good 
service  to  the  public  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  No,  sir.  We  would  not  give  as  good  service  to  the 
public,  and  I  doubt  very  much  whether,  under  that  arrangement,  you 
ANould  get  from  your  locomotives  as  great  efficiency. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  w^ould  ultimately  reduce  your  earnings? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Ultimately ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  would  not  move  as  many  tons  in  a  month  with  a 
locomotive,  even  though  it  hauled  more  tons  per  train  mile;  is  that 
right? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  should  say  that  you  would  reduce  the  efficiency 
of  your  equipment  by  allowing  it  to  be  limited  in  that  way,  under  all 
conditions,  at  least  30  per  cent.  A  delay  to  a  car  in  transit  is  just  as 
bad  as  a  delay  to  a  car  waiting  for  the  shipper  to  load  or  the  consignee 
to  remove  the  load. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  is  the  average  weight  of  a  train  that 
you  haul — how  many  tons? 

Mr.  McKenna.  It  varies  very  largely.  It  is  governed  by  the  grade 
line  of  the  division  on  which  the  traffic  moves,  and  the  power  that  is 
used  to  move  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Considering  now  your  largest  engines,  I  mean. 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  think  our  loading  on  the  Chicago  division  is 
1,800  tons.  On  the  La  Crosse  division  about  the  same;  but  then  wo 
have  other  divisions  where  it  runs  down  as  low  as  500. 

Mr.  Marble.  Will  you  give  us  your  car  balance  sheet  for  the  last 
three  months,  saj^  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  The  balance  sheet  between  the  railroads? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  McKenna.  Between  the  railroads,  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes,  sir;  with  pleasure. 

Mr.  Marble.  Showing  the  number  of  foreign  cars  held  by  you,  and 
the  number  of  your  cars  held  by  foreign  roads? 

Mr.  McKenna,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  At  periods  of  say  a  week  apart  during  this  crop  year? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  think  those  balances  are  taken  oH'  about  three 
times  a  month.  They  are  sent  to  my  office  and  I  can  give  them  to 
you  in  an  hour  if  you  want  them. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Biddle,  will  you  tell  us  what  the  aver- 
age daily  car  movement  on  your  line  is? 

Mr.  BmoLE.  About  23  miles  a  day,  according  to  the  last  advices  or 
reports  that  I  saw.  It  runs  from  22  to  23  miles  per  day.  It  is  very 
much  less  than  it  was  about  a  year  ago. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  the  average  in  the  whole  country  ? 

Mr.  BrooLE.  That  is  the  average  for  the  whole  South. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  for  the  whole  country,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  BiDDLE.  How  do  you  mean? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  I  have  seen  figures;  I  have  seen  a 
statement  to  the  effect  that  the  average  car  movement  for  the  entire 
country  was  about  23  miles. 

Mr.  Biddle.  I  am  not  sure  about  that.  A  year  ago  it  was  in  excess 
of  that,  I  think  about  25  or  26  miles. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  329 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Ami  about  23  miles  this  year? 

Mr.  BroDLE.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Hari^\x.  You  hoard  Mr.  McKenna's  statement,  did 
you  not? 

Mr.  BmoLE.  No;  I  do  not  know  that  I  did;  not  in  reference  to 
that. 

Mr.  Marble.  He  was  not  asked  as  to  that;  it  was  as  to  the  time  that 
a  car  was  in  transit  and  also  the  delays  in  passing  a  division  point. 
These  figures,  as  I  understand  them,  include  these  cars  that  are  used 
as  warehouses? 

Mr.  Bn)DLE.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Harlax.  Mr.  McKenna,  will  you  give  the  car  move- 
ment on  your  line? 

Mr.  McKenna.  For  four  months  it  has  been  from  32  to  36  miles. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  it  less  than  last  year? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I^ist  vear  it  was  31  to  33  miles  for  the  same  i)eriod. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Biddle  in  refeivnoe  to  a  car 
of  grain  loaded  out  in  the  country — and  this  is  in  connection  with 
the  same  question — to  come  300  miles  into  a  market  and  passin*' 
through  two  division  points,  what  is  the  nonnal,  customary,  and 
i*easonable  delay  from  the  time  it  is  shipped  until  it  is  received? 

Mr.  Bn)DLE.  I  could  not  give  you  that.  I  do  not  know  that  our 
people  have  it  in  that  shape.  I  know  our  average  mileage  per  day 
per  car,  and  that  is,*I  think,  between  22  and  23  miles,  and  last 
year,  as  I  recollect  it,  it  was  alx)ut  25  or  20,  and  the  ditference  in 
our  judgment  is  accounted  for  by  the  congestion,  under  which  con- 
dition a  large  nunilK>r  of  our  loadwl  cars  are  absolutely  standing 
still.  However,  that  subject  and  that  information  I  am  hardly  in  a 
position  to  give  to  you  in  the  same  shape  that  Mr.  McKenna  is  giving 
it  to  you. 

Mr.  Marble.  AVhat  I  wouhl  like  to  ascertain  is  what  do  you  on 
your  road  think  is  the  fair  thing  to  do  and  what  do  you  actually  do — 
about  how  many  miles  per  twelve  hours? 

Mr,  Bn)DLE.  I  have  not  the  train  sheets  in  mv  possession,  so  that  I 
am  unable  to  give  you  tlie  information  for  which  you  ask  in  that  way. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  as  low  as  twenty? 

Mr.  HiDDLE.  I  have  not  the  slightest  ideii. 

Mr.  Marble.  Will  you  give  us  some  figures  about  it  corresponding 
to  these  figures  which  have  been  given  by  Mr.  McKenna? 

Mr.  BmniJ-:.  Yes;  I  will. 

Conmiissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  McKenna,  can  vou  also  send  us  a  state- 
merit  showing  the  increase  of  your  locomotive  equipment  and  car 
equipment  since  1901. 

Mr.  McKenna.  That  is  contained  in  this  statement  which  I  have 
already  submitted  to  the  Conmiission. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Does  that  show  the  increase  in  the  tonnage 
for  the  same  period? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Not  tonnace,  but  ton  mileage.  It  is  only  for  the 
first  four  months  of  this  fiscal  year.  Our  ton  mileage  increased  10.07 
per  cent.  AVe  build  our  own  locomotives  and  cars,  and  during  the  year 
ending  December  1  we  built  56  locomotives,  an  increase  of  about  5.J  per 
c«nt;  4,441  cjirs,  representing  a  net  increase  of  8.04  per  cent.  A  ivA 
increase  in  that  case  means  that  that  is  additional  equipment  aft:'r 
the  cars  that  have  been  dropped  out  have  been  considered. 


330  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  the  largest  for  the  year? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes;  for  the  calendar  ye-av  to  December  1. 

Commisioner  Harlan.  Does  that  show  your  increase  of  equipment 
since  1901? 

Mr.  McKenna.  No,  sir;  but  I  can  prepare  that  for  you,  and  will 
be  glad  to  do  so. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  If  you  will,  also  show  the  increase  of  your 
gross  tonnage,  and  net  tonnage  moved  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Let  me  understand  what  you  want.  You  want  a 
statement  showing  the  increase  of  the  locomotives  and  freight-car 
equipment  and  the  increase  in  tonnage  from  1901  to 

Commissioner  Harlan.  To  the  end  of  your  last  calendar  or  fiscal 
year  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes;  I  would  be  very  glad  to  furnish  you  with 
that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  anything  here  in  addition  that  you  desire 
to  explain?  I  have  here  the  statement  prepared  by  Mr.  McKenna 
which  I  want  to  put  in. 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  do  not  believe  that  the  statement  which  Mr. 
Marble  refers  to  contains  anything  upon  which  I  have  not  already 
commented. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  the  statement  prepared  by  Mr.  McKenna  I  will 
now  file  with  his  testimony. 

(Same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1 — 
McKenna.") 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  want  to  ask  one  question.  Is  there  a  neces- 
sity existing  which  compels  the  railroads  to  go  to  the  car  manufac- 
turers and  locomotive  makers  in  order  to  get  locomotives  and  cars? 
Can  not  the  railroads  themselves  supply  themselves  with  this 
equipment  ? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  can  answer  that  question,  so  far  as  the  Chicago, 
Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul  is  concerned.  It  supplies  itself  with  its  own 
locomotives  and  freight  cars.  We  build  our  own.  We  have  a  capac- 
ity at  West  Milwaukee  of  8,500  freight  cars  per  year.  Our  locomo- 
tive capacity  in  the  current  year  has  been  about  62.  We  have  made 
an  addition  to  our  locomotive  construction  shops,  so  that  next  year 
we  will  be  building  about  132  per  annum,  or  at  least  have  that 
capacity. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  railroads  in  the  country  are 
equipped  so  as  to  make  their  own  locomotives  and  cars? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  do  not  know  of  any  other  railroad  that  builds 
all  of  its  ow^n  equipment.  The  Pennsylvania  builds  some  locomo- 
tives, but  I  think  it  has  gone  out  of  freight-car  construction. 

Commissioner  Lane,  Do  3  ou  know  what  your  car-building  plant 
costs,  or  what  it  is  valued  at? 

Mr.  McKenna.  I  can  only  get  at  that  approximately,  because  it  is 
a  part  of  our  general  shops  at  Milwaukee. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  approximation  would  you  give? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Oh,  I  should  say,  roughly,  that  we  have  got — that 
is,  that  we  will  have  invested  by  the  1st  of  February,  in  that  })ar- 
ticular  direction,  about  $1,500,000. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  any  embarrassment  to  the  railroad 
that  builds  its  own  cars  in  procuring  whatever  equipment  it  needs? 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  331 

Mr.  McKenna.  Not  in  oiir  case.  We  have  been  able  for  the  last 
sevonteon  years  to  provide  car  equipineiit  necessaiy  for  our  needs,  and 
we  are  now  builaing  for  several  extensions  that  are  under  con- 
struction. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  your  road  at  any  time  in  the  last  ten  years  tried 
the  plan  of  loading  its  trains  heavier,  so  as  to  have  more  ton-miles  i>er 
train-mile? 

Mr.  McKenna.  We  are  continually  increasing  the  load  behind  the 
engines.  We  are. continually  endeavoring  to  increase  the  load  behind 
the  engine,  in  so  far  as  it  is  consistent  with  adequate  and  satisfactory 
service  to  the  public,  and  looking  always  to  reasonable  locomotive 
efficiency  and  the  general  good  of  the  service. 

Mr.  Marble.  Such  as  you  have  here  testified  to  as  being  reasonable? 

Mr.  McKenna.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  tried  heavier  loading  as  an  experiment? 

Mr.  McKenna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  not  tried  such  experiments? 

Mr.  McKenna.  No,  sir. 

(The  witnass  was  excused.) 

C.  W.  Sanford,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified 
as  follows: 

Mr.  Marbi.£.  You  reside  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  engaged  in  the  railroad  business? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Manager  of  the  Chicago  Car  Service  Association. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  that  association? 

Mr.  Sanford.  It  is  what  is  known  as  the  Demurrage  Bureau.  It 
makes  record  of  all  the  cars  held  beyond  the  free  time  for  loading 
or  unloading — that  is,  the  free  time  allowed  by  the  railroad  rules. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  being  so,  also  you  have  knowledge  of  cars  which 
are  l)eing  held  over  the  free  time  and  can  testify  as  to  their  number? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes,  sir;  my  attention  is  directed  to  all  cars  for 
local  delivery  and  held  for  ordei's. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  what  roads? 

Mr.  Sanford.  On  all  roads. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  just  to  put  this  in  one  sentence,  I  wish  to  come 
to  the  question  of  cars  being  used  as  warehouses.  What  do  you  say  as 
to  the  number  of  cars  that  are  being  held  in  Chicago,  and  the  aver- 
age period  of  their  detention,  for  all  the  roads,  from  your  general 
experience  and  knowledge  in  that  business  ? 

Afr.  Sanford.  Well,  I  can  not  say  as  to  the  outside  detention.  We 
compute  the  detention  from  the  time  that  the  car  arrives  at  the  sta- 
tion until  it  is  what  we  term  released.  That  is,  the  disposition  given 
to  the  road  which  is  holding  it,  or  until  it  is  unloaded.  The  average 
detention  by  days  at  Chicago,  while  the  car  is  held  at  stations,  up 
until  the  time  it  is  ordered,  is  aboiit  two  and  a  half  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  During  that  time  is  the  car  under  the  ship|)ers'  con- 
trol, or  the  railroad's  control? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Why,  the  shipi)ei-s  control  about  90  i>er  cent  of  that 
time.  I  mean  that  the  shippers'  detention  is  about  nine-tenths  of  a 
day. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  nine-tenths  of  a  day  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes,  sir. 


332  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Tlien,  as  to  the  free  time,  how  much  does  that 
average  ? 

Mr.  SANtx)RD.  Well,  the  free  time  allowed  at  Chicago  to-day  is 
fortv-eight  hours  for  the  reconsigning  of  all  commodities  except  coal. 
Coal  is  allowed  five  days  by  some  lines.  Forty-eight  hours  is  allowed 
for  the  unloading  of  all  commodities  except  gi*ain  for  elevators,  which 
is  allowed  five  days,  but  the  railroads  have  given  directions  to  have 
their  rules  become  effective — to  have  the  release  of  the  car  become 
effective  as  promptly  as  jjossible,  which  will  make  the  free  reconsign- 
ing  time  forty-eight  hours  for  all  commodities  except  coal.  Coal 
will  have  a  maximum  of  four  days,  providing  the  unloading  for  all 
commodities  shall  be  forty-eight  hours — the  unloading  free  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  unloading  time  is  in  addition  to  the  free  time, 
is  it  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  A^liat  is  the  demurrage  after  that? 

Mr.  Sanford.  One  dollar  j^er  day. 

Commissioner  Lane.  For  all  railroads  coming  into  Chicago? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  that  has  l^een  effective  how  long? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Well,  that  dollar-a-day  rate  has  been  effective  for 
years — since  1888.  These  rules  that  I  have  just  described,  Ave  have 
orders  to  put  them  into  effect,  but  it  will  take  at  least  thirty  days 
l)efore  we  can  get  them  entirely  operative.  It  will  be  I  think,  about 
February  1  before  they  become  effective. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  $1  per  day  sufficient?  I  will  ask  it  in 
another  form.  Would  warehouses,  on  that  same  freight,  charge 
more  ?  Would  storage  of  that  same  freight  in  a  warehouse  cost  more 
than  $1  per  day  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  That  depends  upon  how  long  it  would  be  held  up. 
If  a  man  onh'  expected  to  hold  it  for  three  or  four  days,  then  it  is 
more  economical  for  him  to  hold  it  in  the  car.  If,  on  the  other  hand, 
he  was  going  to  hold  it  for  two  weeks  or  more,  it  would  be  best  for 
him  to  hold  it  in  a  warehouse. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Can  you  tell  what  the  average  number  of  days 
is  that  a  car  is  held  over  the  forty-eight  hours  which  is  permitted 
ordinarily  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Well,  the  total  detention  is  less;  well,  one  and  one- 
half  days  it  was  said  a  little  while  ago. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes;  but  the  cars  I  mean  that  are  held  over 
two  days. 

Mr.  Sanford.  Well,  at  this  time,  about  10  per  cent. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Ten  wr  cent  are  held  more  than  two  days? 

Mr.  Sanford.  That  is,  sufficient  time  to  accrue  car  service  charges. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  would  In?  one  day,  would  it  ? 

Mr.  Sanjxjrd.  No;  two  days. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  two  da3's;  and  after  two  days  you 
ch-.irge  $1  a  day? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes;  exactly. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now.  then,  10  per  cent,  as  I  understand  you, 
are  held  more  than  two  day«? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes;  that  is  correct. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  can  you  tell  me  what  the  average  length, 
of  time  over  two  days  is  that  those  cars  are  held  ? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  333 

Mr.  Saxford.  "Well,  I  could  only  approximate  that,  but  I  would 
say  about  four  days. 

Conunissioner  Lane.  Are  uiany  of  them  held  for  that  length  of 
tune  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  AVhy,  no;  not  a  very  large  iK*rcontage,  although 
Chicago  is  a  distributnig  nnirket,  and  there  is  a  gi'eat  deal  of  "  notify  " 
freight  shipped  here.  I  suppose  that  there  is  a  larger  |)er  cvnt  of 
freight  held  in  cai^s  at  Chicago  than  at  any  other  point.  We  fre- 
quently have  eai*s  that  are  lieUl  for  thirty  days  or  h)nger. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  class  of  freight  is  that? 

Mr.  Saxford.  It  is  principally  slack,  duff  coal,  and  hay.  Occasion- 
ally wooti,  slabs  that  come  from  some  planing  mill  in  the  North.  It 
is  those  three  connnodities  principally,  and  then  in  the  fruit  season 
there  are  frequently  cai*s  of  vegi'tables  for  which  there  is  not  a  prompt 
demand,  watermelons  and  such  fruit  as  that.  Fruit  like  that  is 
allowed  to  remain  on  hand,  owing  to  an  unsatisfactory  market,  until 
it  is  of  too  little  value.  It  stays  in  the  car  till  the  railroads  find  that 
it  is  not  going  to  be  unloaded  by  the  consignee  and  then  they  un- 
load it. 

Mr.  Marble.  AMiy  is  there  more  free  time  allowed  on  coal  and  coke 
than  on  other  commodities? 

Mr.  Saxford.  A  large  percentage  of  the  coal  and  coke  that  comes 
to  this  market  is  from  a  long  haul.  It  passes  through  a  number  of 
division  points  and  points  where  railroads  put  it  in  probably  two  or 
three  different  trains — it  is  put  in  different  trains  at  different  yards. 
It  is  necessary  to  market  coal  at  a  distance  from  Chicago  and  liaul  it 
to  some  distributing  point,  or  at  least  very  nnich  of  it.  This  has 
always  been  a  distributing  point.  There  is  lake  competition  at  Chi- 
cago. Coal  that  comes  by  lake  competes  with  coal  that  comes  by 
rail.  Lake  transportation  is  economical,  and  in  that  the  coal  is  often 
held  for  some  time  on  the  docks.  The  idea  is  to  in  some  manner 
place  the  rail  shipper  on  an  equal  footing.  It  takes  some  time  for 
the  consignee  to  dispose  of  his  freight  here. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  that  apply  to  all  commodities  likewise? 

Mr.  Saxford.  Not  all  commodities,  but  it  applies  to  some  com- 
modities, and  to  coal,  as  well  as  anything  else.  It  takes  longer  time 
to  communicate  with  the  consignee  and  get  his  directions  for  the 
disposition  of  the  coal  here  than  it  does  at  some  other  stations. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  explanation,  then,  would  be  that  as  to  the  coal, 
methods  have  to  be  adopted  to  meet  the  lake  competition? 

Mr.  Saxford.  They  have  to  meet  the  lake  competition. 
E  Mr.  Marble.  And  the  railroads  have  therefore  j^ermitted  the  coal 

^        to  be  stored  in  the  cars? 

Mr.  Saxford.  Not  entirely  that,  but  if  a  man  can  ship  coal  in  by 
water  and  have  it  held  until  he  wants  to  use  it,  and  he  can  not  obtain 
the  same  privilege  if  he  ships  by  rail,  he  certainly  will  give  the  prefer- 
ence to  the  mode  of  transportation  which  affords  him  the  facilities 
that  he  wants,  when  it  is  possible  for  him  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  say  that  the  ruling  reason  is  the  competition? 

Mr.  Saxf-ord.  And  in  addition  to  that,  the  long  haul,  the  irregu- 
larity in  the  route,  and  time  of  arrival,  owing  to  the  long  haul. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  uncertainty  in  time  of  delivery? 

Mr.  Saxfx)RD.  Partly  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  not  that  apply  to  other  products? 


334  CAB   SHORTAGB. 

Mr.  Sanford.  Well,  it  does  not  apply  to  other  products  that  are 
not  necessities.  Coal  is  a  necessity.  Many  of  our  big  industries 
would  be  obliged  to  close  down  if  they  could  not  be  regularly  sup- 
plied with  coal.  Railroad  companies  frequently  find  it  impossible 
to  do  that  at  a  distance  of  400  or  500  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  Before  I  left  Washington  I  heard  this:  That  the 
railroad  companies  had  provided  specially  built  cars  for  the  coal 
dealers,  which  could  be  quickly  unloaded,  but  that  the  coal  dealers 
had  failed  to  provide  the  proper  facilities  for  unloading  such  cars 
and  were  using  primitive  methods.  Do  you  know  anything  about 
that?  I  refer  to  the  hopper-bottom  cars,  cars  which  will  practically 
unload  themselves  if  properly  handled. 

Mr.  Sanford.  I  presume  a  very  small  percentage  of  coal  dealers 
are  equipped  with  trestles  and  other  conveniences  for  unloading 
hopper- bottom  cars.  It  is  a  very  small  percentage  of  coal  dealers, 
probably,  that  would  find  it  profitable  to  go  that  expense;  that  is, 
dealers  who  would  unload  sufficient  coal  regularly  to  warrant  an 
expense  of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Marbi-e.  Well,  coal  dealers  as  well  as  others  are  complaining 
of  the  lack  of  cars. 

Mr.  Sanford.  They  don't  complain  to  me  of  a  lack  of  cars  when  I 
come  in  contact  with  the  public.  It  is  generally  because  they  are 
oversupplied  and  don't  unload  their  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  was  that  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  When  I  come  in  contact  with  the  public  it  is  because 
they  are  oversupplied,  generally,  and  do  not  unload  their  cars.  They 
make  no  complaint  to  me  of  shortage. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  want  more  free  time  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes;  they  Avant  more  free  time. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  loaded  cars  come  into  Chicago 
in  a  day  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  I  could  not  say. 

Commissioner  Lane.  AVell,  you  gave  us  a  figure  of  10  per  cent  on 
the  number  that  were  held  over  two  days. 

Mr.  Sanford.  Well,  I  did  that  because  we  figure  that  every  month — 
we  make  a  record  of  all  the  cars  that  are  charged  car  service  or  that 
are  subject  to  car  service,  and  that  is  the  number  of  cars  that  are 
charged  car  service. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  understand  that,  but  you  testified  to  a  cer- 
tain figure  of  10  per  cent  of  the  number  of  cars  that  came  in. 

Mr.  Sanford.  I  said  that  the  number  of  cars  held  for  loading,  im- 
loading,  or  reconsigning.  Now,  there  are  a  great  many  cars  that 
come  into  Chicago  that  are  loaded  with  through  freight.  Tliere 
are  a  great  many  cars  of  through  freight.  I  make  no  record  of  them, 
and  pay  no  attention  to  them. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Only  the  cars  that  come  here,  to  this  city,  as 
their  terminus  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Exactly. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  cars  of  that  kind  are  there? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Well,  we  record  about  175,000  to  205,000  per  month. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  days  do  you  figure,  thirty  days 
to  a  month  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  We  figure  the  working  days  only,  twenty-six  days 
to  a  month. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  335 

Commissioner  Lane.  Six  days  in  the  week? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Ijane.  Ten  per  cent  of  that,  then,  would  be  17,000 
cai*s? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Seventeen  thousand  cars  in  this  city  that  are 
held  longer  than  forty -eight  hours? 

Mr.  Sanj-orix  In  a  month? 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  In  a  month,  yes.  Does  that  mean  individual 
cars,  or  do  you  accumulate  the  cars?  Do  you  count  the  same  car 
over  again? 

Mr.  Sanford.  No;  we  only  count  the  car  once,  whether  it  accrues 
$1  or  $20. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  would  bo,  tiien,  17,000  individual  cars 
during  a  month  that  would  be  held  for  warehousing  or  some  purpose 
of  that  kind  ? 

Mr.  Sani'X)ri).  Not  all  at  one  time. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Throughout  the  month.  Cars  held  more  than 
two  days. 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes ;  that  is  correct. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  the  average  of  them  that  would  be  held 
more  than  two  days,  the  average  time  you  think,  would  be  four  days? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  figure,  then,  that  there  are  about  68,000  car-days 
per  month — is  that  right — that  are  used  for  storage  purposes  in  this 
citv? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Well,  I  figure  twenty-six  days  to  the  month,  without 
counting  any  Sundays  or  holidays. 

Mr.  Marble.  Coming  down  to  the  month  that  is  on  the  calendar, 
and  the  days  that  cars  are  on  the  track,  used  for  storage,  how  many 
car-days  per  month  do  you  say  are  used  for  storage  in  this  city  ? 

Mr.  Sanford.  I  do  not  know  how  many  cars  have  been  detained 
this  month,  but  you  multiply  by  2^  and  you  have  it,  a  general  average 
of  2i. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  estimate  that  number,  and  total  it? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Beyond  four  days? 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  get  a  statement  along  that  line  for  us,  and 
give  it  to  us  exactly? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes;   I  can. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Let  us  have  that  for  a  period  of  three  months. 

Mr.  Sanford.  Now,  let  me  understand.  You  wish  a  stat«Mn(Mit  of 
the  cars  that  have  accrued  car  service,  and  the  time  that  they  have 
been  detained,  for  a  period  of  three  months. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sanford.  And  the  days  that  they  have  been  detained? 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  do  not  mean  the  specific  cai>;;  we  just  want 
the  total  number  and  the  number  of  days  that  they  have  been 
detained. 

Mr.  Sanford.  All  right,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  can  furnish  that,  ran  you? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Do  you  wish  that  by  days  or  months,  or  just  one 
week? 


336  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  If  you  can  give  it  to  us  by  days,  so  many  cars 
l)er  day  on  an  average,  say,  for  the  month  of  September. 

Mr.  Sanford.  I  will  see  that  you  have  it  this  afternoon. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  we  can  say  that  for  the  month  of  October, 
for  instance,  the  cars  detained  in  Chicago  amounted  to  so  many  cars 
for  one  day.  We  wish  that  so  that  we  can  determine  to  what  extent 
cars  are  used  for  warehouse  purjjoses.  You  can  furnish  us  those 
figures,  can  you? 

Mr.  Sanford.  Yes ;  I  can.    I  will  give  them  to  you  by  2  or  3  o'clock. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you,  from  your  standpoint,  hold  that  there  is  an 
evil  here  for  which  the  receivers  are  responsible,  which  aggravates 
the  transportation  situation,  so  far  as  the  shippers  are  concerned? 

Mr.  Sanford.  I  think  that  there  could  be  a  good  many  cai-s — a 
good  many  cars  could  be  reassigned  more  promptly  or  loaded  more 
promptly. 

Mr.  Marble.  Who  is  responsible  for  the  fact  that  they  are  not  ? 

Mr.  Sani-ord.  AVell,  I  think  it  lays  mostly  with  the  railroads  and 
the  consignees.  Mr.  Biddle's  remarks  on  the  subject  of  so  many  con- 
signees not  stocking  much  freight,  I  think,  are  very  much  to  the 
point.  There  are  many  consignees  that  take  care  of  large  quantities 
or  raw  material,  fuel,  etc.  There  are  others  that  hold  large  quan- 
tities in  cars  all  the  time.  By  large  quantities  I  mean  five  or  six 
days'  supply^. 

Mr,  ]VIarble.  And  the  railroad  responsibility  is  what? 

Mr.  Sanford.  The  railroads  are  responsible  in  that  the  yards 
become  congested  and  they  find  it  impossible  to  regularly  and  rapidly 
give  the  switching  service  at  the  terminals. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  that  at  all  come  from  the  use  of  the  cars  as 
warehouses  by  those  shippers? 

Mr.  Sanford.  It  comes  from  delays  in  getting  reconsigning  orders 
and  accepting  freight  before  unloading  when  it  arrives  at  desti- 
nation. 

Mr.  Marble.  "\Miat  action  do  you  see  that  the  railroads  can  take  to 
help  remove  that  evil? 

Mr.  Sanford.  I  would  minimize  the  reconsigning  and  raise  the 
demurrage  rate. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all,  I  think. 

Mr.  Marble.  Capt.  G.  J.  Grammer.  head  of  the  freight  traffic 
department  of  the  New  York  Central  Lines,  was  subpoenaed,  but  I 
learn  that  he  is  ill  and  confined  to  his  room,  and  for  that  reason  we 
will  have  to  excuse  him. 

J.  W.  MiDOLEY,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  was  ex- 
amined, and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Midgley,  where  do  you  reside  ? 

Mr.  Midgley.  In  Chicago. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  what  is  your  business? 

Mr.  MiiKJLEY.  That  is  pretty  hard  to  tell. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  recently  been  that  of  i«?suing  letters  in  relation 
to  the  car  clearing  houses,  and  the  car  pools,  and  the  car  diversioi^ 
evil,  has  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Midgley.  Yes,  sir. 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  337 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  at  all  as  a  i*e.sult  of  an  employment  by  railroad 

systems  ? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  Yes.  sir.     May  I  state  how  I  conmienced? 

Mr.  Marble.  We  will  be  very  glad  to  have  you  do  so. 

Mr.  MiiwjLEY.  Alx)ut  six  yeai*s  ap:o  certain  gentlemen  quite  prom- 
inent in  financial  and  railroad  circli^s  thotight  there  was  not  enough 
of  a  just  return  received  from  the  use  of  railroad  cars,  and  they  aslced 
me  to  look  into  the  causes  and  try  and  devise  plans  for  stimulating 
the  activity  of  freight  cat's.  A  number  of  them  got  togi^ther,  made 
an  agivement,  and  asked  me  to  spend  a  year,  or  possibly  two,  in  that 
work.  I  have  been  at  it,  in  all,  six  vears.  The  first  residt  of  those 
efforts  was  a  change  in  the  method  of  com|)ensation  for  the  exchange 
<.r  use  of  freight  cars  from  the  mileage  method  to  the  j^er  diem 
uiethml.  From  the  inception  of  railroads  until,  I  think,  July  1,  11)01. 
or  1J)0^ — I  am  not  sure  as  to  the  year — the  rule  was  to  pay  for  the  use  of 
a  car  when  it  left  the  home  rails  by  the  miles  run.  The  rate  was  finally 
fixed  at  G  mills  per  car  jx'r  mile  run.  If  the  csir  did  not  run,  if  it  was 
kept  idle  for  months,  or  even  yeai-s,  no  compensation  was  paid  to  the 
owner  for  the  use  of  his  car;  and  that  frequently  occurr;»d.  There 
was  every  incentive  not  to  let  a  car  run,  because  the  user  did  not  have 
anything  to  pay  for  it — did  not  pay  anything  for  it  if  it  did  not  run. 
There  were  railroads  in  this  city — some  had  ample  warehous<»  room 
or  storage  room.  In  order  to  secure  business  they  would  give  free 
warehouse  room — free  storage  to  the  shippers.  Other  railroads  that 
did  not  have  storage  room  would  offer  their  cai*s;  that  is,  the  cai-s  of 
other  companies.  In  order  to  put  a  stop  to  that  practice  denuirrage 
associations  were  organized  over  the  cotnitry,  but  that  did  not  release 
the  cars  when  they  went  away  from  home. 

I  advwated  a  delay  payment,  but  the  mistake  made  was  in  fixing 
the  rate  so  low.  When  I  got  the  movement  around  to  a  point  where 
1  was  sure  it  could  be  inaugurated,  because  it  was  not  a  movement 
that  ivquired  unanimity — it  did  not  require  unanimous  action,  as  any 
number  of  railroads — a  half  a  dozen — coidd  have  started  it.  When  I 
got  it  to  the  point  when  the  largest  systems,  ea.st  and  west,  were  in 
favor  of  the  change  proposed  the  American  Railway  Association 
st«'j)ped  in  and  slid  they  would  take  charge  of  it,  and  they  inaugu- 
rated what  is  called  the  |^r  diem  rules  of  car  movement  and  fixed 
the  rate  at  20  cents  per  car  per  day — a  ridiculously  low  rate.  Of 
coui*se.  that  was  more  than  chnmic  borrowers  had  paid;  in  fact,  they 
had  paid  almost — very  little  of  anything.  Take  the  roads  in  New 
Kngland.  Throughout  New  England  there  were  small  warehouse 
rwnns  near  the  great  mills  —  manufacturing  establishments.  So, 
when  the  cotton  came  from  the  South  or  Southwest  it  was  held  in  the 
cai's  on  track,  at  the  convenience  of  manufactiirers,  until  it  was  con- 
-umed  in  the  mills.  It  might  take  three  months,  as  it  frequently  did. 
No  return  was  made  to  the  owners  of  those  cars — western  cars  or 
-oiithern  cai's — because  it  is  a  rule  in  raih'oading  that  the  initial  road 
-liall  furnish  the  car  and  let  it  run  through  to  destination. 

Now,  they  complained — those  New  England  roads — that  they  did 
not  iuive  warehouse  room,  and  that  to  charge  them  20  cents  a  day 
wouhl  l)e  a  fearful  hardship.  They  wanted  to  pay  only  10  cents  a 
(lay.  I  wanted  30  cents  a  day.  Thirty  cents  a  day  would  have  been 
an  i<leal  rate  for  the  standard  car,  which,  since  1002— July  1, 1U02 — has 

S.  Doe.  33:3, 65I-2 22 


338  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

been  established  with  a  carrying  capacity  of  60,000  pounds.    That  is 
the  standard  box  car  of  the  United  States. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  percentage  would  30  cents  a  day  be 
on  the  cost  of  the  car,  after  repairs  had  been  made  ? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  Oh,  it  would  be,  approximately,  a  fair  rental  of  a 
car  costing  not  to  exceed  $800.  It  would  not  be  fair,  now,  for  a  car 
which  costs  $1,000. 

Conmiissioner  Hablan.  What  per  cent? 

Mr.  MiDGLET.  Six  per  cent,  that  was  figured.  My  idea  was  to  fix 
30  cents,  which  was  1  cent  per  ton  carrying  capacity,  and  then  to 
graduate  the  rate  according  to  the  capacity  of  the  car.  An  80,000- 
pound  car  would  then  have  been  required,  to  pay  40  cents  a  day; 
100,000,  50  cents  a  day;  and,  by  the  way,  the  Pennsylvania  does  not 
build  any  cars  of  less  carrying  capacity  than  100,000  pounds.  Now, 
the  absurdity  of  allowing  just  the  same  rates  for  a  30,000,  40,000  or 
50,000  pouna  car,  as  they  do  for  a  100,000-pound  car,  is  almost — goes 
without  saying.  The  rate  has  been  increased,  or  was  increased,  com- 
mencing July  1,  1906,  to  25  cents  per  car  per  day,  regardless  of  its 
size  or  capacity.  It  took  the  American  Railway  Association  four 
years  to  bring  about  that  condition,  that  advance.  There  has  now, 
by  the  efforts  of  one  man — one  of  the  most  powerful  men  in  the 
East — been  an  advance  to  50  cents  per  day.  This  has  been  inaugu- 
rated between  some  90  or  100  railroads  that  own  or  control  1,400,000 
freight  cars.    That  took  effect  the  1st  of  December. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  50  cents  a  day  regardless  of  the 
tonnage  capacity? 

Mr.  IVIiDGLEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  One  million  four  hundred  thousand  cars? 

Mr.  MiOGLEY.  Yes,  sir.  This  independent  movement — the  roads 
that  have  signed  that  agreement  and  become  parties^probably  con- 
trol that  many. 

Commissioner  Lane.  TMiich  roads  are  they? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  The  names  of  the  roads  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Can  you  give  them  to  us? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  I  will  ask  my  secretary  if  he  recollects  the  last  num- 
ber— they  are  adding  to  the  number. 

Commissioner  Lane  (asking  Mr.  Midgley's  secretary).  Can  you  let 
us  have  that — ^the  railroads  that  charge  50  cents  a  day  ? 

The  Secretary  (to  Mr.  Midgley).  Yes,  sir;  there  are  over  a  hun- 
dred of  them. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Over  a  hundred  of  them  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  there  been  opportunity  since  that  rate  of  50  cents 
went  into  effect  to  test  its  operation,  or,  rather,  the  result  of  its 
operation  ? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  Oh,  no;  not  yet;  but  I  do  not  think  it  will  amount 
to  much,  when  cars  are  worth  so  much  more.  Any  traffic  man  would 
be  willing  to  pay  $1,  $2.  or  $3  a  day  for  all  the  cars  he  could  get.  If 
he  has  to  pay  only  50  cents  a  day  he  can  make  a  good  profit. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  dull  times,  it  is  not  needed  to  prevent  delay  to  the 
cars? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  No;  there  is  no  trouble  in  borrowers  returning  cars 
when  they  do  not  want  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  at  the  time  the  cars  are  most  needed  by  the  rail- 
roads owning  them  it  is  not  large  enough  to  force  them  back? 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  339 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  It  will  have  very  little  effect,  in  my  judgment,  in 
returning  the  ears,  for  the  reason  which  I  have  just  stated,  which 
should  be  self-apparent  to  any  traffic  man. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Midglej',  is  there  any  plan  that  has 
occurred  to  you  that  in  your  judgment  would  have  a  l)etter  effect? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  I  am  confident  that  I  could  very  greatly  mitigate — 
ameliorate  the  situati<m.  Now,  it  can  not  ha  done  inmiediately  by 
any  ])ower  on  earth,  and  we  shall  have  just  as  severe  a  crisis,  or 
critical  situation  as  we  now  have,  next  year,  unless  something  is  done 
in  the  meantime. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Let  us  have  the  benefit  of  your  suggestion  ? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  No;  I  would  rather  not  do  that.  I  have  inaugu- 
rated more  i-eforms  in  railway  service  than  all  tlie  officers  of  the  rail- 
roads in  the  United  States  combined,  and  1  have  not  received  the 
slightest  recognition  for  the  service.  I  shall  not  evolve,  or  outline, 
any  plans  now,  unless  my  services  are  fully  recognized  and  compen- 
sated therefor. 

Commissioner  Lane.  AVliat  do  you  think  of  reciprocal  demurrage, 
Mr.  Midgley  ? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  I  do  not  wish  to  exj)ress  an  opinion  on  that. 

Commissioner  Lane.  As  a  railroad  man,  do  you  think  it  would  be 
fair  to  the  railroads? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  I  would  rather  not  speak  on  that  subject. 

Mr.  MarbJiE.  Mr.  Midgley,  in  your  circular  letter  No.  55,  dated 
Chicago,  July  27,  lOOG,  at  page  5,  you  say : 

It  Is  exi)edlent  to  einphnsize  tlie  sucrewliiig  iKjint,  namely,  that  there  are 
enotigh  freight  oars  In  oi>eration  to  transact  the  business  of  the  eomitry  If  they 
were  proi)erly  liandled.  It  is  a  fact  wlilcli  can  not  be  InipreswHl  too  strongly 
ui)on  the  attention  of  the  managers.  Its  admission  in  the  absence  of  a  com- 
mon use  of  equli)ment  Is  an  Incontrovertible  argument  in  fav()r  of  Government 
ownerslilp. 

Now,  you  have  repeated  that  stateuient  at  various  tiuies  in  succeed- 
ing lettei-s.  It  is  unnecessary  for  me  to  quote  all  of  them  to  remind 
you  of  them,  but  I  will  ask  you  if  this  is  still  your  opinion  that  there 
IS  sufficient  equipment  provuled  its  use  were  stiuiulated  as  it  is  pos- 
sible to  do? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  I  do  not  hesitate  to  rej^eat  that  very  statement. 
While  I  am  adverse,  and  utterly  opposed  on  principal,  to  Ciovernment 
ownership,  I  say  that  if  the  railroad  managers  do  not  rise  to  the 
situation,  and  do  their  utmost  to  perform  their  duties  properly,  then 
they  furnish  the  best  possible  argument  for  Government  control  of 
their  properties.  In  other  words,  it  is  now  incuml)ent  upon  the 
railway  managei's  and  the  railway  men  to  do  what  woukl  lye  done  if 
there  were  common  control  of  the  railroads  of  the  comitrv.  Now,  if 
there  were  connnon  control,  of  course  there  would  be  no  use  of  ditfer- 
entiating  between  the  equipment  of  various  lines;  but  there  is  a  great 
deal  involved  in  the  details  that  T  do  not  want  to  discuss  at  this  time, 
or  to  now  burden  the  Commissicm  with — details  that  e.xist  under  the 
present  arrangement. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  lK>en  advocating  what  might  be  called  a 
"  car  pool,"  have  vou  not  i 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  t  do  not  like  the  term  "pool."  Car  clearing  house 
Is  a  much  better  term. 


340  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  situation  now  under  discussion,  and  the  point 
toward  which  the  investigation  is  directed,  is  as  to  the  best  methods 
to  meet  the  present  emergencies  and  those  which  may  arise  in  the 
future.  Under  the  i)resent  methods,  it  appears  to  have  become  un- 
safe for  a  road  to  let  its  cars  go  to  a  connecting  road,  because  it  can 
not  do  so  without  the  fear  of  being  robbed  of  its  equipment.  It  is 
not  sure  of  getting  an  equivalent  either  in  the  shape  of  equipment  or 
of  a  money  return. 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  The  road  should  be  made  good  for  the  loss  of  its 
equipment. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  should  be  made  good  in  equipment,  and  not  in 
money  ? 

Mr.  MiiKJLEY.  Oh,  that  is  not  correct.  They  should  be  made  good  in 
their  equipment  or  in  money,  for  the  loss  of  earnings  that  they  would 
otherwise  derive  had  they  not  been  deprived  of  the  equipment.  For 
example,  I  have  no  objection  to  mentioning  the  Illinois  Central  as 
an  illustration.  That  road  provides  each  year  a  sufficient  equipment 
in  anticipation  of  its  increased  business.  It  is  not  fair  to  the  Illinois 
Central,  which  is  a  large  producing  road  or,  as  is  termed  in  railway 
parlance,  "  an  originating  road,"  that  there  should  be  a  balance  of 
from  10,000  to  12,000  freight  cars  against  it;  that  is  to  say,  that  num- 
ber of  its  cars  in  excess  of  the  number  of  foreign  cars  held  by  it  being 
on  other  roads.  It  can  not  take  care  of  the  business  for  which  it 
built  its  own  equipment.  It  loses  traffic,  and  I  say  that  the  chronic 
borrower  should  be  compelled,  in  emergencies  like  the  present,  to 
compensate  the  roads  for  the  loss  of  the  equipment. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  ask  you,  Mr.  Midgley,  as  to  this  statement  that 
you  have  made-  that  there  are  enough  freight  cars  in  operation  to 
transact  all  the  business  of  the  country,  provided  they  were  properly 
handled.  Do  you  find  experienced  railroad  men  agreeing  with  you 
in  that  view  of  the  situation? 

Mr.  Midgley.  They  have  written  me  to  that  effect,  and  their  state- 
ments are  in  print.  Those  statements  are  contained  in  the  printed 
proceedings  of  various  organizations  of  railway  men. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  obtained  tho'^e  vicAvs  in  such  a  way  that 
you  feel  free  to  mention  the  names  of  the  railway  men  agreeing  with 
you  ? 

Mr.  MmoLEY.  No,  I  have  not ;  I  am  sorry  to  say. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  has  been  confidential? 

Mr.  Midgley.  It  was  on  the  principle  of  the  Pullman  Company. 
If  each  railroad  had  to  provide  its  own  sleepers  it  would  require 
three  or  four  times  the  equipment  that  the  Pullman  Company  owns 
or  controls,  but  by  receiving  or  sending  them  wherever  they  are 
needed,  when  there  is  a  demand  in  one  pmce  and  a  deficiency  in  the 
other,  and  using  them  in  that  way,  they  succeed  in  transacting  the 
sleeping-car  business  of  the  country  in  a  much  more  economical  man- 
ner and  with  a  far  less  number  of  cars.  Noav,  then,  if  there  was  a 
conmion  use  of  freight-car  equipment,  properly  conducted  in  all  its 
details,  it  would  have  the  same  or  a  corresponding  effect  on  the 
freight  business. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  think  that  under  such  an  arrange- 
ment there  would  be  a  sufficiency  of  cars  for  the  proper  movement  of 
crops  in  the  autunni  of  each  year? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  341 

^Ir.  MiDOLEY.  I  think  so,  approximately;  but  that  condition  can 
never  be  brought  about  unless  autocratic  authority  is  given  to  some 
one  in  charge.  They  will  have  to  cut  out  a  great  numy  arrangements 
which  have  been  made  and  doubtless  some  of  those  practices  will  be 
abandoned,  which  are  now  in  vogue,  and  which,  in  my  opinion,  the 
law  does  not  sustain — namely,  concessions  made  to  shippers  by  the 
traffic  men  in  order  to  secure  business. 

Commissioner  Lane.  In  the  matter  of  the  time  that  they  allow  a 
car  to  stand  on  the  track  ^f 

Mr.  MiiKiLEY.  Yes;  for  one  thin^. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  think  that  prevails  to  any  considera- 
ble extent  i 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  It  prevails  all  over  the  countiy,  but  more  particu- 
larly in  the  East,  ijerhaps,  than  in  the  West.  Now,  take  the  situation 
in  5>\nv  York.  Tlie  rule  of  the  lines  terminating  in  New  York  is  to 
allow  free  storage  on  export  grain  for  (U)  days  from  the  date  of  the 
bill  of  lading.  The  western  car  gets  tluMv  and  there  are  no  facilities, 
no  warehouse  room,  and  the  car  is  held  there.  Free  storage  is  given 
to  the  shipjjer. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Free  storage  in  the  cars? 

Mr  MiDGLEY.  In  the  cars,  if  there  is  no  other  way  of  unloading  or 
transferring  the  grain. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  published  in  the  tariff,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Midgley.  I  believe  it  is.  In  any  event  it  is  the  rule  that  is 
undei*stood  and  is  some  way  is  published  in  New  York.  Now  that 
does  not  exist  at  the  Southern  points,  like  New  Orleans.  My  impres- 
sion is  the  rule  there  is  twenty  days — storage  of  twenty  days,  and 
they  propose  to  reduce  that  to  ten. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  they  actually  store  grain  in  cai*s  a  great  deal,  do 
you  know  ? 

Mr.  Midgley.  Well,  I  could  not,  of  course,  state  from  personal 
knowledge  for  the  last  two  years,  because,  on  account  of  my  defective 
sight,  I  have  been  unable  to  travel. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  that  is  according  to  your  information? 

Mr.  Midgley.  P>oin  my  information  and  belief. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  information  and  belief  is  that  they  actually 
do  store  a  great  deal  of  grain  in  cai*s  at  these  ix)ints? 

Mr.  Midgley.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Can  you  tell  us  the  name  of  an  authority  or 
ass(X'iation  or  an  individual  who  would  i)e  able  to  inform  us  as  to  the 
numl)er  of  cai*s  held  in  New  York  for  storage  purposes? 

Mr.  MiwJLEY.  I  should  think  the  manager  of  the  Cixr  Service  Asso- 
■  iation  at  that  point,  whose  duties  correspond  with  those  of  Mr.  San- 
ford,  who  just  testified. 

Mr.  ALxRBLE.  Without  mentioning  names,  I  will  ask  von  if  these 
railroad  officials  who  agree  with  you  that  there  is  enough  equipment 
in  the  country  if  it  were  properly  used  to  do  the  business  are  exjx'ri- 
ciiced  railroad  men,  and  men  of  authority  and  standing  among  rail- 
road men? 

Mr.  MiDf;LEY.  They  are  among,  I  think,  the  greatest  operating  offi- 
cials, and  they  are  men  who  handle  the  <-i\v<  and  lune  charge  of  the 
distributing  of  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Of  the  larger  systems? 

Mr.  Midgley.  Yes;  the  largest  that  we  have.  There  is  another 
thing.    Take  it  in  Chicago;  the  terminals  are  crowded  during  their 


342  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Imsy  soason,  nearly  all  or  at  least  some  parts  of  tl>e  year.  The  termi- 
nals are  crowded  for  the  reason  that  through  shipments  are  brought 
to  the  city  that  never  ought  to  come  within  its  limits.  Assume  that 
the  car  is  loaded  or  originates  in  New  York,  destined  for  Omaha  or 
any  western  territory.  That  car  should  not  come  into  this  city  at  all. 
It  should  go  to  a  central  point  outside  of  the  city  and  there  be  deliv- 
ered by  the  eastern  road  to  the  western  road  by  which  it  is  to  be  for- 
w^arded,  and  it  should  go  through  without  coming  into  the  city 
terminals  at  all.  Under  such  an  arrangement  those  cars  would  go 
through  in  train  lots,  and  these  larger  terminals  in  the  city  would  be 
at  least  partially  relieved  from  that  congestion. 

It  takes  an  average  of  two  weeks,  ordinarily,  to  get  a  car — say  a  car 
of  flour  from  Minneapolis  destined  for  New  York — it  takes  two  weelcs 
to  get  it  through  Chicago  on  an  average.  I  think  they  will  tell  the 
gentlemen  of  the  Commission  that  that  is  the  fact.  They  have  so 
stated  to  me  when  last  I  was  in  Minneapolis  and  talked  with  them. 
Now,  there  is  plenty  of  room  outside.  There  is  a  plant  outside  of  this 
city  where  I  think  there  are  18  parallel  tracks  about  3  miles  long,  and 
it  IS  called  a  clearing  house,  for  the  express  purpose  of  handling  such 
traffic  and  furnishing  facilities  for  the  movement  of  through  freight. 
That  plant  remains  idle. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Why  don't  the  railroads  avail  themselves 
of  it? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  I  would  like  something  easier  to  answer  than  that. 
Some  things  are  unaccountable. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  long  would  it  take  a  car  to  get  through 
that  clearing  point  that  you  speak  of  ? 

Mr.  Midgley.  They  could  put  it  through  in  twenty-four  hours,  and 
just  see  how  they  could  economize.  The  way  they  have  to  do  now, 
suppose  a  train  load  comes  in  on  an  eastern  road ;  it  will  have  a  num- 
ber of  cars  destined  for  western  roads.  The  switch  engine  will  have 
to  go  to  each  one  of  those  western  roads  with  these  different  cars, 
whereas  the  same  switch  engine  could  distribute  those  cars  at  one 
central  point.  In  the  way  oi  economizing,  under  that  arrangement, 
they  could  also  bring  back  from  the  southern  or  western  roads  such 
cars  as  were  destined  for  the  eastern  road.  It  is  incomprehensible  to 
me  why  the  railroads  do  not  avail  themselves  of  that  arrangement. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  not  that  done  to  some  extent  in  the  I2ast 
by  the  so-called  belt  lines? 

Mr.  Midgley.  It  is  done  to  a  limited  extent,  but  the  practice  is  not 
indulged  in  as  it  should  be. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Would  you  say  that  it  is  a  small  percent- 
age of  the  cars  that  should  be  transferred  to  connecting  carriers  at 
this  point? 

Mr.  Midgley.  I  say  that  no  business  should  be  brought  into  the 
city,  into  such  crowded  terminals  as  we  have  now,  such  as  we  have 
here,  that  is  likely  to  be  forwarded  to  any  western  point.  I  am  not 
speaking  of  other  than  through  shipments.  Take  our  wholesale  mer- 
chants, they  are  antedeluvian  in  their  methods.  Instead  of  carting 
back  and  forth,  between  railroad  depots  and  their  wholesale  houses 
all  their  goods,  they  should  simply  have  some  place,  have  a  ware- 
house at  some  point  like  that,  and  then  instead  of  storing  the  freight 
in  the  ci'owded  terminals  it  should  be  forwarded  to  a  central  point. 


CAB  SHOBTAGB.  343 

Now,  there  is  a  plant  out  there  that  has  been  established  for  that 
purpose,  and  for  some  reason,  I  know  not  why,  the  railroads  will  not 
use  it,  or  at  least  they  have  not. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  To  return  again  to  the  belt  lines.  ^Vhat 
percentage  of  cars,  of  through  cars,  are  handled  by  those  lines? 

Mr.  MrocLEY.  That  I  could  not  state.  I  have  no  official  informa- 
tion of  that  kind. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  think  it  is  a  small  percentage  of  cars 
that  are  handled  by  these  belt  lines  that  could  be  so  handled? 

Mr.  MrocLET.  Yes;  I  do. 

Mi*.  Marble.  In  3'our  letter  number  58,  after  quoting  Mr.  Fish,  you 
make  an  argument  or  a  statement  that  the  increase  in  motive  power 
and  in  car  capacity  has  kept  pace  with  the  marvelous  growth  of  ton- 
nage oflFered  for  transportation. 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  If  I  read  that  letter  aright,  you  quote  Mr.  Fish  as 
making  that  statement  for  the  Illinois  Central. 

Mr.  MrocLEY.  No ;  I  quote  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission, 
and  the  figures  which  they  furnished  me. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Fish's  argument  is  what? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  I  might  explain  that  if  you  will  allow  me,  as  to  Mr. 
Fish's  connection  with  that  matter.  Mr.  Fish  was  one  of  the  pio- 
neers in  this  movement.  Mr.  Fish,  Mr.  J.  P.  Morgan,  Mr.  E.  H. 
Harriman,  Mr.  J.  J.  Hill,  Mr.  Ripley,  and  a  number  of  other  gentle- 
men engaged  me  originally  to  look  into  this  matter.  Mr,  Fish,  at 
the  outset,  tried  to  emphasize  and  impress  upon  me  the  necessity  of 
or^nizing  a  clearing  house.  He  is  a  financial  man  and  he  wanted 
things  settled  as  banKs  do,  through  a  clearing  house.  One  year  ago 
the  office I's  representing  one  of  the  foremost  roads  in  the  American 
Railway  Association  came  to  me  and  asked  me  to  continue  the  special 
work  I  had  been  engaged  ih,  with  a  view  of  promoting  the  formation 
of  car  pools.  I  had  announced  my  intention  of  retiring  last  spring. 
"WTien  this  gentleman  came  and  urged  me  to  advocate,  as  I  say,  the 
formation  01  car  pools,  that  was  the  situation  of  affairs. 

I  said  to  them  that  I  had  letters  from  Mr.  Fish  received  some  years 
ago,  along  that  line,  and  that  I  thought  I  could  interest  him  in  the 
proposition.  They  said  if  I  would  take  up  the  matter,  by  the  ensuing 
fall  doubtless  enough  roads  would  become  interested  to  justify  Mr. 
Fish  in  calling  a  meeting,  and  organizing  a  car  pool  between  such 
roads  as  would  be  willing  to  enter  into  an  agreement  at  that  time,  and 
that  within  five  years  it  would  comprise  all  the  roads  of  the  country. 
1  wrote  to  Mr.  Fish  immediately  after  that  conference.  He  wanted 
to  cooperate,  and  his  letter,  which  was  written  to  the  American  Rail- 
way Association,  at  their  last  convention,  was  responsive  to  my  re- 
quest advocating  a  car  clearing  house.  Now  that  explains  my  present 
position  and  connection.  I  have  accomplished  what  those  gentlemen 
asked  me  to  do,  because  everybody  is  interested  in  a  car  pool  now. 
They  laughed  at  me  a  year  ago  and  they  said  it  was  foolish,  and  it 
was  a  matter  which  was  ridiculed.  They  said  it  was  impracticable. 
I  do  not  think  anvone  would  state  that  now. 

It  is  perfectly  feasible,  and  always  was,  if  the  roads  had  taken  hold 
of  it  There  are  two  men  in  the  country  that  can  do  more  than  any 
other  power  and  authority  to  alleviate  this  situation  for  next  year. 


344  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

If  Mr.  E,  H.  Ilariiman.  and  Mr.  J.  J.  Hill,  with  the  influence  they 
have,  and  the  following  that  they  can  at  any  time  control,  will  au- 
thorize a  competent  party  to  work  at  this  situation,  and  thereafter 
support  him  in  his  work,  it  can  be  done. 

Air.  Marble.  How  do  you  explain  the  fact,  Mr.  Midgley,  that  Mr. 
Hill's  railroad,  the  Great  Northern,  has  3,000  more  freight  cars  in 
its  possession  than  it  has  lost  of  its  own  ? 

Mr.  Midgley.  He  will  not  allow  his  cars  to  run  east  of  the  Minne- 
sota transfer. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  how  do  j^ou  explain  the  fact  that  his  road  is  so 
far  behind  in  its  delivery  of  freight? 

Mr.  Midgley.  Of  course,  I  do  not  know  as  to  the  details,  but  Mr. 
Hill  will  say  that  the  Northern  Pacific,  also  the  Great  Northern  and 
the  Burlington,  have  their  box  cars,  or  the  majority  of  them  (I  think 
certainly  all  their  new  box  cars),  of  80,000  pounds'  capacity.  They 
are  unwilling  to  exchange  those  for  a  small-capacity  car,  and  Mr. 
Hill  will  not  allow  his  cars  to  run  east,  either,  A  man  can  unload  at 
Minneaf)olis  into  the  mills  most  of  the  grain  that  the  Great  Northern 
brings,  and  that  grain  is  there  converted  into  flour  at  Minneapolis. 

Mr.  AIarble.  AMiat  I  am  getting  at  is  this:  You  look  to  improve- 
ment in  the  use  of  the  equipment,  to  get  better  results  from  the  cars  ? 

Mr.  Midgley.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  a  road  like  the  Northern  Pacific,  which  has 
about  6,000  more  cars  than  it  would  be  entitled  to  if  it  had  only  what 
it  owns,  is  very  far  behind  the  public  necessities  in  its  service.  It 
is  so  far  behind  that  it  is  very  unsatisfactory  to  the  shippers  there. 

Mr.  Midgley.  Well,  Mr.  Hill  has  peculiar  theories  of  loading.  Mr. 
Hill  has  a  theory  of  loading  which  is  peculiar  to  himself,  although  he 
has  obtained  better  results  because  of  the  favorable  location  of  the 
Great  Northern  Railway  than  has  any  other  railroad  on  the  con- 
tinent. That  is  my  understanding.  He  will  not  allow  a  train  to 
be  forwarded  (that  was  the  rule  at  least — of  coui'se,  I  do  not  know 
what  is  at  the  present  time  the  rule),  until  the  train  is  loaded  to  the 
rated  capacity  of  the  locomotive.  He  is  therefore  enabled  to  show  a 
great  deal  better  average  per  car  than  any  other  railroad  does. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  greater  average  load  per  train-mile  ? 

Mr.  Midgley.  Per  train-mile. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  results  in  cars  waiting  under  load,  until  the 
train  can  be  filled  up? 

Mr.  Midgley.  Oh,  yes.  In  the  same  way  he  will  not  allow  cars  to 
be  run  westward  until  they  are  loaded  and  at  one  station,  I  think  it 
is  called  Hamilton,  they  are  all  sent  in  there  and  loaded  in  full  car- 
loads and  sent  out  .in  train  loads.  Other  roads,  like  the  Soo  Line 
parallel  with  the  Great  Northern,  in  some  respects  follow  its  policy, 
but  their  management  think  it  better  to  return  cai*s  empty  so  as  to  get 
more  grain  and  bring  it  in  as  quickly  as  possible.  Does  that  answer 
your  question? 

Mr.  Marble.  That  answers  the  question,  I  think. 

In  your  circular  letter  No.  59,  under  date  of  December  10,  190G, 
you  say : 

It  Is  well  known  that  shippers  are  largely  responsible  for  a  situation  against 
which  they  loudly  declaim.  This  fact  was  plainly  i>olnted  out  in  an  interview 
recently  held  with  a  prominent  manager,  who  is  reported  to  have  said :  •'  Dur- 
ing nine  days  out  of  ten  freight  cars  are  heing  held  for  loading  or  unloading 


CAR  SHORTAGE.  345 

or  are  tied  np  in  sHlinjis  waiting  for  spjuv  at  teruiinals.  nml  If  8lil|>i»ers  and 
consignees  f«»ulil  liasten  tlu*  loading  or  nnloading  of  cars  8»)  as  to  reiluce  the 
average  time  of  detention  from  nine  days  to  eiglit  days,  tliey  would  inuntnliately 
obtain  the  use  of  ISD.iXM)  cars." 

Do  you  know  whether  the  statements  in  that  quotation  arc  true? 
Is  it  your  opinion  that  those  figures  are  corrt^ct  ? 

Mr.  MiiMiLEv.  I  Ix^lieve  them  to  l>e  true,  and  it  necessarily  follows 
that  cars  averaging  only  twenty-two  hours  per  day 

Mr.  Marble.  You  mean  22  miles  per  day  ? 

Mr.  MiDGiJ^Y,  Well,  the  movement,  the  average  movement  of  cars, 
the  mileage  made  by  cars,  according  to  the  latest  report  that  I  have 
seen,  is  iu>out  24  miles  per  day.  These  statistics  were  published 
recentlv  by  the  American  Railway  Association,  and  they  are  in  their 
printed  proceedings. 

Mr.  Marblk.  That  is  a  mile  an  hour? 

Mr.  MiD(;iJ^:v.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marbl£.  You  spoke  of  this  as  an  interview  recently  held.  Are 
you  free  to  give  us  the  name  of  the  manager  from  whom  that  quota- 
tion was  taken? 

Mr.  MiiMii.EY.  I  would  rather  not.  My  policy  has  been  in  writing, 
not  to  use  the  names  of  the  gentlemen  quoted,  unless  I  had  special 
permission  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  not  ask  for  that  if  you  prefer  not  to  give  it. 
Mr.  Fish's  name  was  used  in  one  of  these  letters. 

Mr.  MiDc.LEY.  I  have  no  hesitation  to  use  that.  You  see  T  have  no 
official  position  and  what  I  am  doing  grows  out  of  the  fact  that  cer- 
tain parties,  who  are  very  influential,  have  confidence  in  my  recom- 
mendations. 

Connnissioner  IjAne.  As  I  understand  your  statement  here  to-dav, 
it  is  to  this  effect :  That,  unless  the  railioads  of  the  country  can  join 
together  and  cooperate  to  bring  about  a  better  use  of  the  facilities,  a 
recurrence  from  year  to  year  of  the  conditions  which  now  prevail 
will  lx»  inevitable? 

Mr.  MiDULEV.  Undoubtedly  so. 

Commissioner  Lane.  If  they  do  not  unite,  is  there  any  legislation 
which  you  would  sugge.st,  by  which  they  can  be  compelled  to  unite, 
or  some  power  i)laced  over  them  which  can  carry  out  the  necessary 
rules  ? 

Mr.  MinoLEV.  "Well,  the  plan  I  contemplate  has  been  submitted  to 
a  special  committe  of  five.  They  are  to  formulate  j)lans  for  a  cleiiring 
house.  On  the  strength  of  the  letter  which  Mr.  Fish  wrote  on  my 
suggestion  to  the  American  Railway  Assm-iation  at  their  semiannual 
convention  last  October,  a  special  committee  of  five  was  appointed 
to  formulate  a  plan,  with  the  idea  that  any  numlK'r  of  roads,  few  or 
many — whoever  chose  to  tmite  therein — might  have  an  opportunity 
to  do  so. 

Commissioner  Hari^n.  A\nien  is  that  .special  committee  to  rcport 
to  the  larger  committee  of  the  association? 

Mr.  Mii)(;ley,  Xo  time  was  specified. 

Conjiiiissioner  Harlan.  It  was  said  in  Minneapolis  that  one  of  the 
railroads — I  guess  all  of  them  in  the  Northwest — was  built  far  in 
advance  of  the  needs  of  that  particular  coimtry.  It  was  said  that  one 
of  the  railroads  had  to  chase  the  Indians  away  as  it  went  along  in  its 


346  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

construction,  and  I  think  it  was  understood  that  that  is  true  of  most 
of  the  Western  roads.    Is  that  your  opinion  ? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  It  is. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  think  that  they  are  pioneer  roads, 
built  in  advance  of  the  needs  of  that  particular  country  ? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Therefore  they  have  resulted  in  building 
up  the  country.  Now,  has  the  policy  of  the  roads  changed?  Do 
they  try  to  keep  in  advance  of  the  needs  of  the  country  ?  Or  do  they 
try  simply  to  grow  as  the  country  grows  ?  Or  have  they  adopted  the 
policy  of  keepmg  just  behind  until  the  need  spurs  them  on,  and  then 
increasing  their  facilities?  As  far  as  you  know,  has  there  been  any 
change  in  that  connection  among  western  railroad  men  ? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  I  know  that  the  policy  you  indicate,  thirty  or 
twenty-  five  years  ago,  was  correct,  because  I  was  then  identified  with 
the  largest  western  road — the  Northwestern  road — and  we  had  built 
across  Minnesota  and  across  Kansas,  and  in  passing  across  Kansas 
herds  of  buffalo  would  frequently  stop  the  train.  In  the  first  tariffs 
that  we  issued  we  provided  a  rate  for  buffalo  bones — the  first  tariffs 
that  I  issued  as  commissioner  of  the  southwestern  railroad  system. 
There  have  been  no  such  conditions  existing  there  for  many  years. 
That  road  was  built  in  advance  of  civilization.  The  Winona  and  St. 
Paul  was  built  west  of  Winona  for  a  distance  of  from  100  to  150 
miles  beyond  any  house.  I  w^as  out  there  at  the  terminus  of  that 
road,  at  Lake  Kampeska,  and  the  road  was  just  laid  on  the  rolling 
prairie.  There  was  not  a  yard  of  grading  that  was  done.  Now,  I 
think  that  Mr.  Hill  is  a  much  better  authority  than  I  am  on  that,  and 
he  says  that  the  railroads  have  not  kept  pace  with  the  growth  of  the 
country,  and  can  not ;  that  it  is  a  physical  impossibility. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Of  course,  among  merchants  and  manu- 
facturers, I  suppose  their  policy  would  be  to  wait  until  the  need  had 
developed  for  their  product  and  then  make  their  arrangements  to 
supply  it.  Now  is  that  the  present  policy  of  the  railroad — to  wait 
until  time  has  shown  a  need  of  greater  lacilities,  and  then  supply 
those  facilities? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  Oh,  I  think  the  railroads  are  doing  their  very  utmost, 
as  they  understand  it,  to  relieve  the  situation,  and  to  be  equal  to  the 
demands  of  the  shipping  public,  but  the  trouble  is  they  have  brought 
upon  themselves  such  a  condition  of  affairs.  Take  this  city  and  the 
shipping  zone — what  is  called  the  Chicago  zone,  or  nearly  so.  They 
have  induced  manufacturers  to  come  from  almost  every  eastern  point 
and  locate  along  their  lines  on  the  positive  assurance  that  they  would 
have  special  facilities,  and  these  manufacturers  never  provided  them- 
selves with  warehouses,  for  example,  to  store  coal.  Now,  you  can 
not  change  these  conditions  in  a  minute.  There  are  a  number  of 
those  things  that  grew  up  that  I  think  are  not  directly  in  contraven- 
tion of  the  law  now,  perhaps,  and  many  of  them  that  I  think  are. 
They  will  have  to  be  cured,  but  it  will  take  time  in  order  to  do  it. 
Those  conditions  all  contribute  to  this  delay,  of  course. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  mean  that  there  are  a  large  number 
of  cars  that  are  used  as  warehouses  upon  which  demurrage  is  not 
paid  ? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  That  I  would  not  know,  but  I  could  give  an  illustra- 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  347 

tiou  of  the  way  they  do.  Oiio  railroad  that  opposed  the  change  from 
(he  mileage  basis  to  the  per  diem  basis  did  so  on  the  statement  that 
thev  had  induced  manufacturers  to  locate  along  their  lines  and  upon 
their  terminals  on  the  assurance  that  they  would  take  care  of  them  in 
providing  any  fuel.  Now,  that  road  which  gave  the  assurance  does 
not  originate'any  coal,  and  it  simply  used  the  cars  of  eastern  roads, 
like  cai-s  of  the  Illinois  Central  or  tlie  Chicago  and  Eastern  Illinois, 
or  any  of  those  cars,  which  brought  in  the  coal,  and  gave  to  their 
industries  those  cars.  They  said:  "We  are  not  going  to  charge 
demurrage."  ^Vhen  they  were  requested  to  charge  demurrage  for  the 
detention  of  cars,  that  was  their  reply.  They  said :  "  If  we  do  that, 
we  will  lose  their  outbound  shipments."  So,  you  see,  they  bought 
the  outbound  shipments  by  the  use  of  the  other  company's  coal  cars. 

Conmiissioner  Lake.  That,  of  course,  is  contrary  to  the  law  now. 
You  do  not  know  whether  that  condition  still  prevails  or  not  on  that 
road? 

Mr.  MiDfiLEY.  No;  the  per  diem  changed  that.  They  had  to  pav 
for  the  car  each  day.  You  see,  when  j'ou  charge  so  much  per  day  it 
is  for  each  day  that  the  car  is  away  from  home.  They  could  not 
afford,  then,  to  give  it  freely  to  the  shippers,  or  anyone  else. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Still,  there  are  a  large  number  of  foreign  cars 
on  all  the  roads  that  are  being  used  as  warehouses. 

Mr.  MiDCLEY.  Yes;  necessarily. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  they  are  charged  for  them  ? 

Mr.  MiDOLEY.  Well,  take  the  case  of  the  refrigerator  freight — 
fruit  from  California.  Any  shipper  will  pay  a  dollar  a  day  as 
demurrage  for  his  car,  and  keep  it  for  seven  or  eight  days  or  perhaps 
two  weeks.  I  think  I  was  told  this  very  recently,  that  the  averaffo 
detention  is  about  two  weeks  on  those  shipments,  because  it  would 
cost  the  shippers  from  $5  to  $6  a  day  to  store  their  stuff  in  a  cold- 
storage  plant.  The  shipper  would  rather  pay  the  railroad  company 
to  use  the  refrigerator  car  for  storage,  or  as  a  warehouse,  at  the  rate 
of  $1  a  day,  than  to  pay  several  dollars  a  day  to  a  warehouse.  In 
that  manner  he  makes  several  dollars  by  the  transaction,  and  the 
practice  has  grown  to  such  an  extent  that  a  car  from  California  to 
New  York  does  not  make  over  three  or  four  round  trips  per  year.  I 
was  told  that  yesterday. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  your  letter  No.  59,  of  December  10,  1906,  you  say : 

Assuredly  Mr.  E.  H.  Harrlman  and  Mr.  J.  J.  Hill  could  put  firmly  on  Its  feet 
a  car  <-learing  bouse  whenever  they  choose  to  take  the  initiative,  and  it  is 
gratifying  to  be  able  to  state  that  both  gentlemen  cordially  favor  such  course. 

Now,  yesterday  afternoon,  in  Minneapolis,  Mr.  Hill  took  that  as 
being  news  to  him.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  how  you  got  the  informa- 
tion that  he  favors  such  a  course. 

Mr.  MiDOLEY.  Favors  a  car  clearing  house? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  MiDOLEY.  From  Mr.  Hill  direct. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Hill  told  you  tlrat,  did  he? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  Yes;  he  did.  The  last  time  I  talked  with  him  I 
asked  him  if  he  favored  a  clearing-house  system  of  cars.  "  I  do,"  he 
said. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Harriman  has  also  communicated  with  you 
directly? 


348  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  MiDCLEY.  It  was  on  Mr.  Harriinan's  direct  request  that  I 
called  a  meeting  here  October  16,  which  led  to  the  adoption  of  the 
50-cent  per  day  rule. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  to  the  clearing  house,  he  also  favors  that,  you  say. 
You  know  that  from  him? 

Mr.  MiDGLEY.  Mr.  Ilarriman  favors  the  clearing-house  method 
very  much.  He  told  me  directly,  for  the  first  time  in  his  own  office, 
"  AVhat  I  want  is  one  settlement  between  the  railroad  I  represent  and 
the  others,  instead  of  settling  here  and  there  and  with  Everyone." 
The  clearing-house  principle  is  one  which  he  cordially  indorses. 

(The  Commission  thereupon  adjourned  until  2  p.  m.  December  20, 
1906.) 

AFTER   RECESS. 

December  20,  1900 — 2  o\-locl'  p.  m. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Midgley  wishes  to  make  a  correction  in  his  testi- 
mony of  this  morning. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Stand  right  where  you  are,  Mr.  Midgley. 

Mr.  MmcLEY.  I  want  to  explain  the  apparent  difference  in  opinion 
between  Mr.  J.  J.  Hill's  statement,  as  communicated  by  Mr.  ]\Iarble, 
and  my  written  declaration  that  he  favored  a  car  pool.  My  informa- 
tion came  very  recently — within  three  weeks — from  a  traffic  manager 
whose  superior  officer  is  very  close  to  Mr.  Hill,  and  this  confidential 
representative  stated  that  Mr.  Hill  did  approve  of  a  car  pool.  I  took 
that  in  connection  with  Mr.  Hill's  declaration  to  me  two  years  ago,  or 
more,  for  I  have  not  seen  him  since,  that  he  was  in  favor  of  the 
clearing-house  system.  Of  course,  the  car  pool  or  car  clearing  house 
is  only  one  phase  of  the  clearance  system.  The  clearing  system  to 
which  I  referred,  when  I  spoke  to  Mr.  Hill  two  years  ago,  related 
more  particularly  to  the  settlement  of  joint  freight  car  accounts.  I 
make  that  statement  now  both  in  justice  to  Mr.  Hill  and  myself. 
Personally  my  impression  would  be  that  Mr.  Hill  does  not  favor  a  car 
pool,  and  I  was  surprised  when  this  statement,  to  which  I  have  just 
referred,  was  made  to  me,  because  he  does  not  pool — that  is,  the  equip- 
ment of  the  Northern  Pacific  and  (ireat  Northern  and  Burlington  is 
not  pooled,  wjiereas  the  equipment  of  the  Harriman  lines  is  pooled. 
There  is  a  car  clearing  house,  a  clearing  house  for  the  joint  use  of 
the  eciuipment  of  the  Harriman  lines,  and  there  is  also  now,  and  has 
been  for  years,  of  the  Pennsylvania  lines  and  all  lines  affiliated  with 
the  Pennsylvania  system,  and  there  is  to-day  between  the  New  York 
Central  lines. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all,  is  it,  Mr.  Midgley  ? 

Mr.  Midgley.  Yes;  that  is  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  Commission,  I  might  say,  is  keeping  in 
touch  with  the  situation  so  far  as  the  coal  famine  is  concerned  in  the 
Northwest,  and  we  are  just  now  in  receipt  of  a  telegi'am  which  says 
that  severe  storms  are  prevailing  on  some  of  the  branch  lines,  and  that 
towns  located  at  the  terminals  of  such  lines  are  suffering  from  the 
lack  of  fuel.  But  it  would  appear  that  the  situation — from  informa- 
tion that  we  have  from  other  sources — has  been  very  much  relieved 
within  the  last  forty-eight  or  sixty  hours,  and  with  the  exception  of 
one  or  two  places  there  is,  I  hope,  no  danger  of  a  coal  famine. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  349 

John  M.  Daly,  eallocl  and  swoni  as  a  witness,  was  examined  by  Mr. 
Marble  and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Dalv,  what  is  vour  fidl  name) 

Mr.  Daly.  John  M.  Daly. 

Mr.  Marble.  Where  do  you  live,  Mr.  Daly? 

Mr.  Daly.  Chicago. 

Mr.  Marble.  "NMiat  is  your  business? 

Mr,  Daly.  At  present  I  am  car  accountant  for  the  Illinois  Central 
Railroad. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  such  car  accountant  are  you  familiar  with  the  car 
situation  at  the  present  time  on  the  Illinois  Central  Railroad? 

Mr.  Daly.  I  anu  I  have  had  twelve  yeaiv  experience  previous  to 
this  as  superintendent  of  transportation  for  the  company,  and  as  such 
I  am  to-day  to  a  greater  or  lexs  extent  enj]^ired  in  the  investigation  of 
all  delays  to  freiglit  service  and  freight  equipment. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  1  will  ask  you  if  you  consider  that  the  Illinois  Central 
Railroad  is  at  the  present  time  short  of  rars? 

Mr.  Dalv.  We  are  short  of  cars  to  protect  our  traffic  to-day  to  the 
extent  of  probably  10  to  15  per  cent.  That  is  not  owing  to  the  fact 
that  we  have  not  provided  sufficient  equipment.  We  own  enough  cars, 
but  we  have  not  got  the  cars  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  \  on  own  them,  but  you  have  not  got  them? 

Mr.  Daly.  That  is  correct :  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  where  they  are? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes,  sir;  we  know  where  they  are.  We  own  62,070 
freight  cars,  which  is  an  average  of  about  1'2\  cars  per  mile  of  track. 
We  have  24,83.5  of  the.se  cars  on  the  tracks  of  loreign  railroads, 
located  on  some  275  roads.  I  have  here  our  location  statement,  show- 
ing the  number  of  each  kind  of  cars — Ik)x.  furniture,  stock,  fruit,  re- 
frigerator, flat,  and  coal  cai-s.  and  the  total  cars  located  on  each 
individual  railroad  in  the  United  States  and  Canada.  The  statement 
also  shows  the  numl)er  of  other  cai-s  on  our  tracks,  but  not  by  classes. 
I  have  taken  those  figures  as  gi'oss,  because  it  is  very  difficult  from  the 
numbei-s  of  other  cars  to  determine  whether  they  are  box  cars,  fruit, 
or  refrigerator  cars.  It  would  take  so  much  time,  labor,  and  ti-ouble 
that  I  have  here  shown  simply  the  total.  This  statement  shows  the 
total  number  of  Illinois  Central  cars  away  from  home  to  be  24,835 
this  year  as  against  22,294  last  year.  Among  that  number  are  1(5,000 
l>ox  cars  away  from  home — no,  the  box  cai-s  are  not  assorted  in  that 
way.  They  are  on  the  total  here.  Among  them  are  15,700  box  cai-s, 
866  furniture  cars,  277  stock  cars,  ()()7  fruit  cars,  l,(>7n  refrigerator 
cars,  648  flat  cars,  4,008  coal  cars,  or  a  total  of  24,835.  On  the  15th 
day  of  Noveml)er  that  total  was  24,329,  so  we  have  increased  about 
500  of  our  cai-s  away  from  home  in  approximately  fifteen  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  foreign  cars  are  there  on  the  tracks  of  the 
Illinois  Central? 

Mr.  Daly.  We  have  15,675.  On  the  10th  day  of  Deceml)er,  1006, 
there  were  15,675  as  against  14,015  on  the  25th  day  of  November. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  balance  against  you  is  about  10,000  cars? 

Mr.  Daly.  About  10,000  cars.  In  other  words,  while  we  own 
02,070  cars  we  have  got  about  52,000  of  our  own  and  foreign  cars  to 
take  care  of  the  traffic.    That  condition,  of  course,  is  due  to  our 


350  OAR  SHORTAGE. 

being  an  originating  road.  We  originate  raw  material — cotton, 
lumber,  and  coal — and  commodities  of  that  nature  which  find  a 
distant  market.  For  instance  the  lumber  business — ten  years  ago  or 
twelve  years  ago  GO  per  cent  of  it,  at  least,  was  disposed  of  on 
our  own  tracks,  practically  at  local  stations,  and  at  important  ter- 
minals like  Chicago  and  St.  Louis.  To-day  over  65  per  cent  of  it 
is  disposed  of  at  distant  markets,  and  the  markets  continue  to  get 
more  and  more  distant  each  year  as  the  scarcity  of  lumber  in  the 
eastern  districts  increases  and  as  our  patrons  on  our  line  and  the 
shippers  increase  the  market  by  sending  salesmen  into  that  territory. 
To-day  we  ship  any  quantity  of  lumber  for  Boston  and  the  New 
England  States,  and  a  large  quantity  goes  into  Canada,  Montreal, 
and  Toronto.  A  good  portion  of  our  lumber,  being  of  the  yellow 
pine  character,  is  consumed  at  the  factory  wherever  there  is  a  car- 
manufacturing  plant.  They  w^ant  that  character  of  lumber,  that 
quality  of  lumber,  and  consequently  we  must  let  our  cars  go  through, 
as  the  lumbermen  object  (and  I  think  fairly  so — I  think  they  are 
justified  in  it)  to  any  transfer  of  the  lumber.  It  damages  the  lumber 
more  or  less  every  time  it  is  handled,  and  then,  of  course,  it  is  nec- 
essary in  cases  like  that,  if  we  put  it  into  another  car  at  the  transfer 
point  it  is  frequently  the  case  that  the  car  is  held  at  the  junction  or 
transfer  point  for  some  time,  and  it  would  be  much  better  for  the 
shipper  it  Ave  could  let  the  car  go  through  from  the  originating  point. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Are  you  able  to  supply  cars  for  cotton; 
for  the  cotton  men  and  the  lumber  mills,  and  so  forth  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  Very  much  better  this  year  than  last  year  both  in  the 
cotton  and  in  the  lumber  traffic.  A^Tiile  we  are  not  loading  any  of 
our  cars,  that  is  to  say  we  are  not  doing  it  intentionally,  for  far  dis- 
tant points,  w^e  are  aiming  to  pick  up,  and  are  picking  up,  a  lot  of 
foreign  cars  and  a.%?  endeavoring  to  use  them  or  apply  them  to  the 
shipments  for  distant  points,  and  are  keeping  our  own  cars  at  home 
for  the  reason  that  if  we  load  an  Illinois  Central  car  on  the  1st  day  of 
November  for  a  New  England  point  or  an  eastern  point  the  chances 
are  nine  out  of  ten  that  we  won  t  get  that  car  back  before  January  or 
February,  and  if  we  had  had  it  at  home  we  would  have  taken  care  of 
six  or  eight  commercial  loads  on  our  own  lines. 

So  that  we  are  aiming  to  keep  our  own  cars  as  much  at  home  as 
possible.  Still  they  get  away,  even  at  that.  But  the  business,  as  a 
rule,  is  being  moved  far  better  this  year  than  last  year.  "We  have  no 
congestion  at  any  point  on  our  system.  Our  power  is  better  than 
ever  before — in  better  condition.  We  have  got  more  power,  but  with 
all  that,  as  I  say,  we  are  short  of  cars,  possibly  15  per  cent. 

In  other  words,  we  have  about  2,800  cars  ordered  to-day  more  than 
we  are  able  to  supply,  but  from  the  knowledge  of  the  orders  and  the 
nature  of  them  I  am  satisfied  that  if  we  had  that  3,000  cars  to-day  to 
clean  up  we  would  not  be  short  300  or  400  cars  to-morrow  with  the 
normal  supply  we  are  giving.  It  is  simply  when  you  run  behind 
1,000  or  2,000  cars  that  tliose  conditions  arise. 

Mr.  Marble,  If  you  had  one-third  of  the  cars  which  you  have  pro- 
vided on  your  road  and  which  you  have  lost,  you  would  have  enough 
to  handle  the  business? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes;  we  would;  and  if  we  had  the  10,000  cars  back 
that  belong  to  us  we  would  have  without  doubt  ample  equipment  to 
take  care  of  all  of  the  business. 


OAR   SHORTAGE.  351 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  the  policy  of  the  niinois  Central  Railroad  to 
provide  cars  to  handle  its  business  throughout  the  busy  season  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  It  has,  as  I  say,  a  sufficient  equipment.  Fifty  thousand 
is  more  than  ample  to  take  care  of  our  requirements  from  the  1st  day 
of  April,  or  the  middle  of  March,  until  aoout  the  middle  of  Novem- 
ber, for  the  reason  that  the  entire  produce  of  the  Yazoo  Delta  and  the 
cotton  crop  all  through  that  section  moves  from  about  the  1st  of  Octo- 
ber until  after  the  holidays,  about  January  1,  as  a  rule.  In  this  the 
weather  conditions  are  a  prominent  factor.  There  are  apt  to  be  con- 
stant rains  that  prevent  picking.  Now,  after  we  get  through  with 
the  cotton  and  the  cotton-seed  products  both  for  export  and  for  the 
compresses  along  our  line,  it  is  very  easy  sailing  for  us  on  the  car 

f reposition.  ^Ve  have  a  surplus  then  for  the  balance  of  the  year, 
n  other  words,  we  build  these  10,000  surplus  cars  to  take  care  of  us 
during  four  months  of  the  year,  and  when  we  are  through  with  tUat, 
when  we  are  through  with  our  rush  and  the  other  shippers  require 
cars,  we  have  always  got  a  surplus  of  them  on  our  lines  during  the 
balance  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  intend  to  build  the  cars  to  rent? 

Mr.  Daly.  No,  sir;  we  do  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  But,  according  to  the  system  in  vogue,  you  do  rent 
cai*s? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes;  because  it  is  a  question  of  participatina:  in  through 
traffic.  We  originate  the  traffic,  and  in  orcier  to  participate  in  the 
haul  we  should  be  obliged  to  furnish  (and  we  are  obliged  to  furnish) 
our  quota  of  the  cars  engaged  therein,  but  I  do  not  think  that  it  is 
fair  tiiat  one  railroad  should  build  sufficient  cars  to  meet  its  demands 
during  the  season  of  maximum  traffic  and  other  roads  to  which  it 
must  necessarily  give  these  cars  in  order  to  carry  the  product  neglect 
to  equip  themselves  with  sufficient  cjirs  in  order  that  they  may  take 
advantage  of  the  road  that  has  done  so.  It  is  my  thought  and  my 
opinion  that  each  should  bear  its  proper  proportion  of  the  burden 
of  taking  care  of  the  joint  through  traffic. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  regard  that  as  the  present  situation? 

Mr.  Daly.  I  do  indeed.  Of  course  if  we  should  control  it  by  re- 
fusing to  handle  traffic  going  to  these  distant  points,  it  would  be 
money  in  our  pockets  for  us  to  do  it — that  is,  if  we  could  confine  our- 
selves as  far  as  possible  to  our  local  business — but  we  can  not  build 
up  industries  in  the  lumber  business,  such  as  we  have  done  in  the 
Soiith,  where  there  are  a  number  of  new  sawmills  and  industries 
which  have  been  located  on  our  lines,  if  we  resort  to  that  practice. 
Such  industries  and  such  development  of  any  country  has  never  been 
built  up  on  the  narrow-gauge  system  that  might  be  resorted  to.  It 
would  simply  result  in  a  restriction  of  traffic.  You  must  carry  their 
goods  to  whatever  point  they  can  sell  them  at  the  best  advantage,  for 
the  reason  that  the  farther  the  market  is  away,  as  a  rule,  the  better 
the  price  is  that  they  can  get  for  that  lumber  as  against  their  own 
home  market.  At  least  that  is  always  what  they  have  told  me,  and 
that  is  why  they  are  anxious  to  get  cars  for  the  long-haul  business. 
It  is  very  frequently  the  case  that  in  the  distant  markets  consumers 
are  willing  to  pay  a  better  price  than  at  the  town  adjacent  to  the  point 
of  production. 


352  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  your  experience  that  those  cars  sent  to  a  distant 
point  are  returned  to  you  as  promptly  as  they  might  bo,  and  should 
be? 

Mr,  Daly.  They  are  not,  as  a  rule.  We  can  bring  cars  into  Chi- 
cago for  Milwaukee,  or  from  a  point  that  is  100  miles  away,  and  get 
them  back  in  fifteen  davs  or  three  weeks,  whereas  it  takes  ordinarily 
six  weeks  to  three  months  on  the  more  distant  points. 

Mr,  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  your  cars  are  detained 
by  other  roads  for  their  local  business? 

Mr.  Daly.  AVell,  you  can  ascertain  pretty  well  from  the  records. 
Where  you  find  that  cars  are  making  sev^eral  movements  from  one 
railroiul  to  another  it  indicates  clearly  that  the  car  is  l>eing  used 
locally  by  the  two  roads.  That  is  an  admitted  fact  on  the  part  of 
transportation  men,  and  more  especially  so  in  the  last  two  or  three 
years. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  understand  it,  from  what  you  say,  to  be  your  con- 
tention that  you  could  even  let  your  cars  go  out  of  your  possession  for 
the  far  distant  shipments  if  you  could  get  prompt  return,  and  still 
the  Illinois  Central  have  enough  cars  to  meet  the  demands  upon  it? 

Mr.  Dai  Y.  I  think  that  the  rate  in  effect  now  will  have  a  tendencv 
to  bring  them  home — that  is,  to  protect  the  roads  owning  them  much 
better  than  heretofore.  For  instance,  up  to  1902  railroads  paid  for 
the  use  of  cars  on  a  mileage  basis.  If  they  hauled  a  car  10  miles  on 
the  first  of  the  month,  they  paid  6  cents.  If  they  allowed  the  car  to 
stand  the  other  twenty-nine  days  in  the  month  on  a  siding  they  did 
not  pay  anything,  and  consequently  under  the  mileage  plan  they 
could  allow  a  car  to  stand  on  a  side  track  for  thirty  days  waiting  for 
business  and  pay  nothing  for  the  use  of  it.  On  July  1,  1902,  the 
various  railroads  went  into  the  per  diem  agreement.  That  is  an 
agreement  to  pay  so  much  per  day  for  the  use  of  cars,  and  the  rate 
was  fixed  at  20  cents,  and  that  was  as  high  a  rate  as  the  railroads 
owning  cars  could  prevail  upon  the  borrowing  roads  to  agree  to  pa^^ 

That  rate  held  in  effect  until  July  1,  190(5,  four  years,  when  it  was 
raised  to  25  cents  a  day.  But  the  roads  owning  about  1,350,000  cars 
out  of  the  total  of  1,800,000  cars  came  together  at  Chicago  on  Novem- 
l>er  9  of  this  year,  and  voluntarily  agreed  to  raise  the  rate  to  50  cents 
a  day  in  view  of  these  conditions  and  the  car  shortage,  with  the  idea 
and  HI  order  to  expedite  the  return  of  cars.  Now,  that  rate  of  50  cents 
per  day  will  have  very  little  effect  in  getting  the  cars  returned  to  the 
owner  more  projnptly  for  at  least  one  or  two  years.  The  relief  is 
going  to  come  in  another  manner,  which  I  will  speak  of.  The  small 
road  that  has  heretofore  been  able  to  confiscate  another  company's 
cars  for  the  four  busy  months  in  the  year  and  to  pay  the  company 
owning  the  cars  20  cents  a  day,  or  $24,  causes  the  owner  to  lose  $150 
on  each  of  the  cars  that  the  borrowing  roads  confiscate  in  that  way — 
cars  that  the  owner  has  built  or  bought  to  protect  him  during  this 
particular  busy  season. 

I  uiight  illustrate  that.  Assume  that  I  were  operating  a  line  of  tug- 
boats at  New  Orleans.  I  find  that  during  the  summer  months  I  can 
get  along  very  nicely  with  ten  tugs,  and  with  that  number  take  care  of 
all  the  business  in  the  harbor  and  handle  it  all  right.  But  during  the 
four  busy  winter  months,,  when  the  vessels  are  taking  cotton  cargoes, 
my  10  tugs  are  not  sufficient  to  handle  the  business,  and  consequently 
I  purchase  five  additional  tugs.     Now,  we  will  say  that  these  five  tugs 


OAB  SHORTAGE.  353 

cost  me  $1,000  each,  allowing  the  value  of  the  car  as  a  basis  of  illus- 
tration, and  the  depreciation  on  them  and  the  repairs  to  them  is 
equal  to  10  per  cent.  With  interest  at  5  per  cent,  that  makes  the 
cost  of  owning  a  tug  $150  per  annum. 

Now,  I  let  one  of  those  tugs  go  out  into  the  river  with  a  tow, 
possibly  to  tow  something  to  Mobile,  and  my  friend  over  there  on 
the  1st  day  of  December  takes  the  tug  and  keeps  it  in  his  service 
from  the  1st  of  December  until  the  1st  of  April.  He  savs  to  me 
when  he  turns  it  back,  that  he  will  pay  20  cents  a  day  for  it,  taking 
that  as  the  fi.xed  charge  and  saying  that  the  interest  is  only  $150  a 
year,  divided  by  305  days.  Now,  my  contention  is  that  he  should 
have  divided — and  the  various  borrowing  roads  in  compensating 
the  owner  for  cars  that  are  built  for  the  four  months  business 
should  divide — the  $150  by  the  120  days,  and  that  makes  it  then  a 
little  over  $1.25  per  day;  and  if  cars  are  permitted  to  stand  on  ter- 
minals, any  of  the  surplus  cars  that  are  built  for  that  season,  and 
are  delayed  there  for  ten  days,  the  road  so  delaying  them  then  owes 
us  $12.50,  instead  of  10  times  20,  or  $2.  That  is  because  somebody 
else  doing  business  with  us  is  obliged  to  pay  into  our  treasury  an 
amount  to  balance  and  make  good  the  deficiency  occasioned  in  that 
manner,  and  I  believe  that  inside  of  a  year  or  two  this  increase  in 
the  per  diem  rate  will  compel  the  roads  that  do  not  own  equipment 
now,  to  build  equipment.  That  in  turn  will  relieve  them  of  the 
necessity  of  confiscating  the  cars  of  other  companies,  and  cars  will 
come  back  more  promptly,  and  we  will  be  better  protected. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Suppose  you  adopted  some  such  plan  as  this, 
that  during  the  last  six  months  of  the  year  you  raised  the  per  diem 
rate  to  $1.25? 

Mr.  Daly.  That  is  a  very  proper  suggestion,  and  it  is  one  that  I 
worked  out  in  committee  at  Denver  at  the  last  meeting.  That  is, 
I  believe  there  should  be  two  rates,  because  the  road  that  builds  cars 
for  the  busy  season  should  be  protected  in  the  busy  season  with  them. 
I  do  not  want  to  advocate  $1  per  day  the  year  around,  for  the  reason 
that  that  would  be  sufficiently  high  to  act  as  an  incentive  to  the  re- 
ceiving roads  in  the  dull  season  to  stop  a  commodity  in  transit  and 
transfer  it  into  their  car,  thereby  delaying  shipments  and  congesting 
terminals;  and  where  there  is  such  a  shortage  of  labor,  it  would  make 
it  even  still  shorter.  We,  in  turn,  when  the  foreign  car  is  delivered 
to  us,  would  transfer  its  contents  into  an  empty  that  we  would  have 
there,  and  that  would  be  burning  up  money  for  no  good.  But  if 
the  rate  were  50  cents  per  day  for  the  six  aull  months  and  $1  per 
day  for  the  six  months  of  business,  then  it  strikes  me  that  you  are 
meeting  the  proposition  on  a  business  basis,  from  a  business  man's 
standpoint,  and  in  a  proper  manner. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  can  you  get  the  consent  of  the  various  roads  to 
the,se  two  rates? 

Mr.  Daly.  A\Tiy,  there  are  two  propositions  now  pending  l)ofore 
the  American  Railway  Association.  The  first  is  a  75-cent  per  day 
rate,  and  the  roads  an*  voting  on  that  proposition. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  The  roads  are  voting  on  these  projwsi- 
tions  now? 

Mr,  Daly.  Yes;  at  a  meeting  in  Chicacro  the  first  proposition  was 
to  increase  the  rate  from  25  to  35  cents,  uut  the  executive  officers  of 

S.  Doc.  333, 09-2 23 


354  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

the  railroads  said  that  that  would  not  do — ^that  it  was  not  sufficiently 
high  to  bring  about  any  results.  Some  wanted  a  dollar  per  day  flat, 
for  the  year  around,  and  so  they  compromised  that  by  making  the 
two  propositions,  which  they  said  they  would  submit  to  the  railroads 
that  are  members  of  the  American  Railway  Association,  and  let  them 
vote  for  both. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  does  that  association  include? 
What  proportion  of  the  mileage  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  Oh,  it  is  all  the  mileage,  practically — 98  or  99  per  cent. 
They  first  have  the  75-cent-per-day  proposition  to  vote  on  as  first 
choice.  If  that  proposition  gets  the  majority  of  the  votes,  then  75 
cents  will  govern.  Then  they  will  vote  again  on  the  50  cent  rate ;  and 
if  the  75  rate  does  not  govern,  let  us  get  the  50-cent  rate.  If  that 
does  not  govern,  it  goes  oack  to  25  cents.  There  is  not,  however,  in 
mj  mind  any  question  but  what  either  the  50  cent  or  the  75  cent  rate 
will  prevail,  because  the  roads  owning  1,400,000  cars  out  of  a  possible 
1,800,000  have  already  consented  to  and  are  paying  to-day  50  cents, 
and  we  have  every  assurance  that  it  will  go  through.  But,  as  I  say, 
the  effect  of  that  can  not  be  felt  at  once,  because  they  must  have  time 
to  build  cars,  and  they  can  not  buy  or  build  cars  in  less  than  ten 
months  to  a  year,  because  the  factories  are  blockaded  with  orders  up 
to  that  time;  but  if  it  is  found  that  a  man  can  build  and  maintain 
his  own  car — the  remedy  for  that  is  that  when  a  man  can  build  and 
maintain  his  own  cars  for  less  money  than  he  can  get  them  in  any 
other  manner  he  is  going  to  build. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Judging  from  your  statement,  I  under- 
stand that  you  regard  it  to  be  the  fact  that  we  are  presented  now  with 
an  actual  car  shortage,  taking  the  whole  country  over, 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes,  sir ;  absolutely.  We  have  investigated  and  figured, 
and  obtained  a  great  many  figures  on  the  quastion  of  car  shortage. 
Transportation  men  will  all  agree  that  the  car  shortage  begins  along 
every  year  about  the  1st  of  December  and  it  continues  bad  until  the 
1st  of  February,  sometimes  into  even  March  or  April.  Now,  that  is 
during  the  winter  months.  Any  road  on  a  terminal  can  handle  at 
lea«t  33  per  cent  more  switching  in  the  summer  months  than  it  can  in 
the  winter  with  the  same  crew  and  engine,  with  the  same  power.  The 
same  crew  and  engine  will  do  it.  In  winter  the  switching  is  slower 
on  account  of  the  extreme  conditions  of  the  weather ;  not  so  much  now 
as  in  the  ordinary  winter  weather.  The  cold  congeals  the  lubrica- 
tion in  the  boxes  of  the  car  and  retards  their  movement  to  that  extent ; 
and  where  an  engine  can  pull  tAventy  cars  in  summer,  when  the  lubri- 
cation is  soft  on  the  journals  and  the  cars  run  easy  and  free,  it  can 
only  pull  ten  in  winter.  When  switching  cars  and  throwing  them 
bacK  in  on  tracks  in  the  winter  time  they  have  got  almost  to  run 
clear  back  with  the  train  itself,  because  the  car  is  so  stiff  that  it  will 
not  run  itself. 

Again,  in  winter  time  they  have  only  from  about  7  o'clock  in  the 
morning  until  4  in  the  afternoon  of  daylight  to  work  by.  That  is, 
nine  hours  as  against  from  4  in  the  morning  until  about  half  past  7 
or  8  at  night  in  the  summer  time  of  dajlight.  Now.  in  all  the  various 
details  of  yard  and  switching  work  it  is  much  easier  and  better  to  per- 
form the  service  required  in  the  daytime  than  at  night.  In  giving 
signals,  seeing  that  the  switches  are  properly  set,  and  being  able  to  see 
where  your  cars  are,  that  the  cars  you  are  handling  is  going  to  hit, 


OAB  SHORTAGE.  355 

having  switchmen  boinp  able  to  catch  cars  and  ride  in  on  them — all 
that  is  done  a  great  deal  quicker  and  easier  and  better,  and  I  might 
say  more  safely,  in  the  daytime  than  at  night.  Consequently,  with 
theuse  of  hana  lamps  and  working  under  those  less  favorable  condi- 
tions which  exist  in  the  winter,  a  switchman  will  handle  50  ner  cent 
less  cars  than  he  will  in  daj'time  where  he  can  see  what  he  is  aoing. 

Now  all  these  things  have  to  be  taken  into  consideration  by  the 
practical  railroad  man  in  considering  the  problem  of  car  shortage, 
and  the  thousand  and  other  things  that  he  is  confronted  with.  Isot 
alone  in  terminals  do  weather  conditions  affect  the  handling  of  traffic 
materially.  Take  it,  say,  at  the  1st  of  DecemWr  or  during  the  winter 
months — our  tonnage  has  to  be  handled  whether  it  is  good  weather  or 
bad  weather.  The  yard  master  and  the  train  master  and  the  chief 
dispatcher  have  to  consider  the  weather,  and  if  it  is  snowing  at  the 
north  end  and  they  have  got  a  train  starting  out  from  the  south, 
while  the  conditions  at  the  south  end  may  be  favorable,  they  have  got 
to  reduce  the  tonna^  on  that  train  so  it  can  get  through,  and  conse- 
quently the  train  will  haul  on  an  average  of  25  per  cent  at  least  less 
in  roaa  service.  So  that  that  would  account  in  a  measure  for  the  con- 
gestion occurring  in  the  winter  season,  and  of  course  the  traffic  is 
heavy.  Still,  in  Alarch  we  will  handle  more  traffic  than  in  any  other 
winter  month  of  the  season,  and  we  can  handle  it  then  easier,  as  the 
conditions  are  more  favorable. 

The  question  of  car  shortage  is  another  difficulty.  As  I  said  before, 
the  more  distant  the  markets,  the  more  distant  markets  found  for  any 
commodity,  the  more  cars  it  will  require  to  handle  the  same  quantity. 
If,  for  instance,  we  had  a  million  feet  of  lumber  to  move  from  Brook- 
haven,  Miss.,  to  Memphis,  why,  we  could  move  it  in  thirty  days  in  10 
cars.  If  they  wanted  that  moved  to  Boston  we  could  not  move  it  in 
thirty  days  in  less  than  50  cars,  or  five  times  as  many.  As  transporta- 
tion facilities  improve  and  the  rates  are  made  such  as  to  })ermit  the 
shipping  of  proclucts  through  to  distant  markets,  just  that  long  we 
will  have  to  prepare  ourselves  to  build  more  cai*s  for  the  same  ton- 
nage, that  is,  the  originating  road  must,  or  else  they  must  get  the 
cai-s  back  from  their  connections. 

Now,  the  question  of  delay  on  terminals.  It  seems  rather  ridicu- 
lous, with  cars  averaging  less  than  30  miles  per  day,  to  say  that  our 
freight  trains  are  moving  on  all  divisions  of  the  system  from  12  to  15 
miles  per  hour;  that  is,  all  freight  trains  on  all  divisions.  We  have 
very  little  overtime;  that  is,  where  they  are  out  so  as  to  make  less 
than  10  mile.s  an  hour. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Take  your  cotton  trains  running  from  Mem- 
phis, what  will  they  average? 

Mr.  Daly.  They  will  average  about  12  miles  per  hour. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  what  is  the  distance? 

Mr.  Daly.  Four  hundred  and  fifty-seven  miles. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  time  does  it  take  you  tA  make  that  run 
for  each  cotton  train? 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  that  would  be  pretty  hard  to  estimate.  In  the 
running  time  it  would  be,  I  should  imagine,  al)out  fortj'-eight  hours. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  mean,  take  the  average  train,  at  the  most 
congested  period  of  the  cotton  season,  we  will  say  along  in  October 
or  >(0vember? 


356  CAB  SHOBTAGB. 

Mr.  Daly.  One  train  might  average  six  days,  and  another  train 
might  average  ten  days.  It  depends  on  the  manner  in  which  they  get 
in  and  out  of  the  terminals.  That  is  a  point  I  think  which  needs  ex- 
planation for  this  reason :  If  a  car  is  only  moving  two  houre  out  of 
every  twenty-four,  it  must  be  standing  the  other  twenty-two  hours. 
Now,  where  is  it  standing?  If  on  terminals,  for  what  purpose! 
Now,  that  is  a  point  that  is  difficult  to  answer  except  in  this  way,  that 
if,  for  instance,  we  load  a  car  of  coal  to  Chicago,  it  may  be  consigned 
to  William  Brown,  and  it  comes  into  the  Wildwood  yard,  among  a 
lot  of  other  cars,  some  for  south  Chicago,  and  some  for  other  points. 
Now,  that  train  as  it  comes  in  is  passed  over  a  gravity  track,  and 
this  air  is  marked  "  hold,"  because  we  do  not  know  where  William 
Brown  wants  it.  He  sends  some  to  the  yards,  some  to  north  Chicago, 
some  to  Englewood,  and  some  to  other  places.  So  the  car  is  passed 
over,  and  it  goes  on  to  the  "  hold  "  track,  and  it  is  then  pulled  with 
a  transfer  engine  and  put  into  the  "  hold  "  yard. 

Notification  is  sent  to  the  lower  yard  here  at  Chicago,  which  is  15 
miles  from  the  coal  yard  out  at  Englewood,  and  the  agent  then  noti- 
fies Brown  that  this  car  has  arrived,  and  he  asks  him  for  disposition 
of  it.  We  allow  Mr.  Brown  two  or  three  days,  in  which  time  he  can 
arrange  for  the  disposition  of  that  car  of  coal.  At  the  end  of  five 
days  he  says,  "  I  want  that  car  sent  to  Jones  at  North  Chicago,  or 
Filllerton  avenue  on  the  Milwaukee  track."  We  must  then  make  a 
bill  for  North  avenue  and  Fullerton  avenue  on  the  C,  M.  &  St.  P. 
That  is  taken  down,  and  we  find  that  car  among  1,200  or  1,500  cars 
of  coal,  and  we  put  the  bill  on,  and  the  switchmen,  when  they  pull 
that  track  at  night  or  the  next  morning,  pass  that  car  into  the  working 
yard  again.  It  goes  in  there  with  cars  which  are  to  be  delivered  to 
other  roads.  It  goes  over  gravity  and  goes  to  the  Belt  and  they 
make  a  delivery  to  the  Milwaukee.  The  next  car  to  it  may  be  going  to 
the  C,  B.  &  Q.,  and  the  next  one  we  may  deliver  ourselves  over  at  the 
stock  yards.  So  that  we  then  pass  the  car  on  to  the  belt — we  give 
that  car  to  the  Belt  railway.  Now,  it  is  next  to  a  car  that  is  going 
to  South  Chicago  with  grain,  or  something  else  on  the  Belt,  and  they 
must  necessarily  haul  that  car  to  their  classifying  yard  and  sort  it  out 
from  the  different  cars  that  belong  to  or  are  going  to  the  Milwaukee. 
They  take  it  then,  and  deliver  it  that  night  or  the  next  moring  to  the 
Milwaukee. 

The  Milwaukee  finds  that  it  is  next  to  a  car  that  is  going  to  St. 
Paul,  we  will  say.  They  have  got  to  pass  it,  and  sort  it  out,  and 
set  it  onto  a  track  where  the  switch  engine  that  waits  on  North 
avenue  and  Fullerton  avenue  will  take  it.  Consequently,  in  t]ie 
average,  that  has  taken  from  twelve  to  fifteen  days  to  get  nd  of  tnat 
carload  of  coal  after  it  struck  this  terminal. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  what  is  the  necessity  of  its  ever  coming 
into  Chicago?    Why  not  adopt  Mr.  Midgley's  suggestion? 

Mr.  Daly.  I  did  not  hear  his  suggestion,  but  if  it  is  opposed  to  the 
question  of  reconsigning,  then  I  am  with  him. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  was  not  his  suggestion  exactly,  but  he 
said,  why  should  all  of  this  business  that  is  destined  at  the  outset  to 
some  other  place  ever  come  in  here  and  get  mixed  up  on  the  local 
terminals?     WTiy  doesn't  it  stay  outside? 

Mr,  Daly.  Well,  so  it  does  to  a  certain  extent.  We  keep  it  on  the 
outside,  15  miles  out  here,  until  the  consignee  has  disposed  of  it 


CAB   SHOBTAGB.  357 

Now,  to  make  that  clear,  I  believe  what  we  need  is  to  understand 
ourselves  on  these  propositions,  and  simplify  matters  as  much  as  we 
possibly  can.  If  the  United  States  (lovernment  were  to  handle 
United  Staters  mail  (and  that  is  nothing  more  than  these  2,000,000 
cars,  we  will  say)  in  the  same  manner,  or  were  comi)elled  to  handle 
the  mail  under  similar  difficulties,  it  would  {perhaps  make  a  good 
illustration.  Thev  have  2,000,000  letters,  we  have  2,000,000  cars. 
Each  letter  is  addressed  to  a  ditferent  man  at  a  different  point,  and 
each  one  must  find  a  certain  route  over  which  to  travel  to  reach  that 
point  and  the  party  to  whom  it  is  addressed. 

Now,  assume  that  I  address  a  letter  to  Mr.  John  Jones,  at  No.  12 
Broadway,  New  York,  notify  William  Smith  at  Pittsburg.  They 
would  necessarily  have  to  put  that  letter  into  the  Pittsburg  pouch. 
When  it  got  to  Pittsburg  they  would  have  to  notify  William  Smith, 
and  say,  "W^hat  will  we  do  with  this?"  He  would  answer,  "Well, 
hold  it  a  few  days,  and  I  will  tell  you  as  soon  as  I  can  find  out  whether 
John  Jones  wants  it  or  not."  Then  he  comes  back  and  tells  them. 
Thev  have  got  to  readdress  this  letter,  put  it  in  another  pouch,  and 
send,  it  to  John  Jones.  If  the  United  States  Government  should 
undertake  to  handle  its  mail  business — the  mail  business  of  the  pub- 
lic— the  same  as  the  railroads  handle  their  traffic,  for  the  convenience 
of  their  patrons,  it  would  find  itself  as  confused  and  mixed  up  as  the 
railroads  are  to-day,  and  it  would  require  just  double  the  facilities 
that  it  has  now  for  the  handling  of  that  busmess. 

Returning  for  a  moment  to  that  car  of  coal  proposition,  I  believe 
that  if  John  Smith  wants  it  at  North  avenue,  it  should  have  been  billed 
to  him  when  it  first  passed  over  gravity.  Then  it  would  have  gone  on 
to  the  belt  track,  and  that  would  have  saved  from  three  to  five  days' 
delay  in  switching,  and  an  expense  of  from  $2  to  $5  incurred  in  that 
service.  It  costs  money  every  time  you  put  a  car  from  one  road  to 
another,  and  that  money  is  not  forthcoming  on  all  shij)ments.  But 
that,  I  think,  is  one  of  the  principal  hindrances  that  the  railroad  meets 
with  dailj,  in  handling  the  business  properly. 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  Do  the  railroads  themselves  have  sufficient 
power  by  rules  or  otherwise  to  regulate  such  practices  as  that  of 
reconsignment  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  They  have  at  some  points,  and  at  other  points  they 
have  not.  Some  State  railroad  commissions  say  that  you  must  afford 
certain  facilities  and  certain  concessions.  Take  for  example  the 
commissions  *f  Mississippi,  Louisiana,  and  Texas  and  some  other 
States — they  rell  you  "wnere  to  head  in,"  and  what  you  must  do. 
Custom  also  makes  it.  If  one  railroad  undertook  to  revolutionize 
the  practice  it  would  have  no  business  during  the  dull  season,  and  it 
would  have  a  car  shortanje  during  the  busy  reason,  when  it  could  not 
get  cars  from  anybody  else.  But  I  think  the  railroads  should  start  it 
and  see  whether  they  can  do  it  or  not.  I  think  it  can  be  done  to  a 
great  extent,  and  it  would  help  the  operating  department  immensely. 
Of  course,  I  can  not  answer  for  our  traffic  men  or  what  they  would  say 
about  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  that  if  you  could  accomplish  that  more 
people  would  be  accommodated  witn  transportation  during  the  busy 
season,  although  some  would  not  be  accommodated  with  warehouses? 

Mr.  Daly.  1  think  that  if  the  unnecessary  delays  that  now  occur 
to  equipment  in  what  you  might  term  the  accommodation  of  patrons, 


358  CAB  SHOETAGB. 

or  affording  extraordinary  privileges  to  the  shippers  or  the  shipping 
public,  were  eliminated,  there  would  be  no  shortage  of  cars,  and  tnere 
would  be  less  demand  for  an  increase  in  terminal  facilities,  for  the 
reason  that  all  of  these  cars  so  held  are  occupying  valuable  terminal 
room,  waiting  for  somebody  to  sell  their  contents.  It  is  a  very 
serious  point  in  transportation  matters  to-day  to  obtain  facilities 
and  space  on  which  to  do  your  business.  I  think  that  really  the 
railroads  have  outgrown  their  facilities  of  years  ago  that  were  then 
ample  in  the  inner  belt  here,  and  some  have  been  compelled  to 
move  out  12  or  15  miles.  I  also  beheve  that  any  number  of  large 
manufacturing  plants  have  outgrown  their  capacity  in  the  inner  and 
more  densely  populated  districts,  where  twenty  years  ago  they  had 
ample  room  to  store  their  raw  material,  such  as  lumber,  coal,  and 
iron.  In  the  last  fifteen  or  twenty  years  they  have  put  buildings 
up  where  they  used  to  have  storage  room,  and  to-day  they  are  work- 
ing night  and  day  in  plants  that  are  operating  on  a  twenty-four  hour 
supply,  and  sometimes  less,  of  fuel. 

These  terminal  roads  and  belt  roads  are  obliged  to  wait  on  them, 
not  once  a  day,  or  once  every  two  or  three  days,  as  they  used  to  do, 
but  every  six  hours  or  every  twelve  hours,  and  the  railroads  that 
bring  in  the  coal  must  carry  a  sufl&cient  stock  out  in  their  yard  for 
five  or  six  days  in  order  to  prevent  a  shortage  at  some  of  these  indus- 
tries that  are  not  equipped  so  as  to  protect  themselves  with  coal. 
That  brings  about  a  situation  which  is,  of  course,  to  the  detriment 
of  another  shipper  who  is  short  of  cars  to  handle  a  commodity  that 
he  can  unload  at  once.  So  I  say  that  I  believe  that  the  industries 
must,  like  the  raihoads — the  large  manufacturing  plants  must,  like 
the  railroads — find  a  location  outside  of  the  densely  populated  dis- 
trict, where  switching  work  is  not  interfered  with  every  few  mo- 
ments by  suburban  trains  and  where  you  are  not  interfered  with  in 
getting  your  stuff  in  to  them;  where  you  are  not  hampered  by  city 
ordinances  governing  the  nmning  or  trains  over  street  crossings, 
and  so  forth,  hampered  by  street  cars  and  street-car  tracks  and 
things  of  that  kind,  and  where  you  do  not  have  to  drag  the  stuff 
slowly  to  them. 

It  IS  a  matter  wherein,  perhaps,  the  railroads  are  largely  responsi- 
ble, but  I  think  a  large  portion  of  this  responsibihty  rests  with  the 
consignees  that  do  not  provide  themselves  with  reasonable  storage 
capacity,  so  that  they  can  take  the  stuff  and  unload  it  more  promptly, 
put  it  into  stock,  and  release  the  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  Mr.  Daly,  to  find  a  remedy  for  this  situation, 
do  you  expect  it  to  come  from  the  consignees?  Do  you  think  that 
they  will  of  themselves  remedy  this  situation,  or  do  you  think  that 
the  responsibihty  is  up  to  the  railroads  to  so  change  their  rules 
that  it  will  be  to  the  interest  of  the  consignees  to  release  these  cars? 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  I  believe  it  is  a  great  big  proposition  to  deal  with, 
and  too  big  a  proposition  to  guess  at.  There  have  been  several 
remedies  touched  on  already. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  the  question  of  reciprocal  demurrage  has  been 
brought  up. 

Mr.  Daly.  That  will  never  accomplish  anything.  A  railroad  is 
more  anxious  to  put  its  cars  in  service  and  keep  them  earning  money 
than  the  consignee  is,  and  Just  as  anxious  if  not  more  so  than  the 
shipper  is  to  get  the  car.     It  stands  to  reason  that  if  a  railroad  can 


CAB   SHOBTAOS.  359 

possibly  expedite  the  furnishing  of  cars  it  will  do  so  in  order  to  increase 
its  revenue ;  and  a  penalty  put  onto  anybody,  shipper  or  consignee  or 
railroad,  that  is  doing  its  best  is  a  vicious  penalty. 

The  c^uestion  of  reciprocal  demurrage  is  in  another  sense  a  bad 
proposition.  For  example,  here  is  a  railroad  that  has  but  50  per 
cent  of  the  equipment  to  move  its  business.  I  am  a  shipper  during 
the  dull  season,  and  I  have  got  a  lot  of  grain  that  I  have  tnirty  days 
to  get  to  market.  I  know  tnis  road  here  has  not  got  the  cars,  but  I 
simply  order  50  cats  from  them  and  the  agent  accepts  the  order.  He 
makes  it  a  point,  or  he  can  make  it  a  point,  to  fail  to  furnish  those  cars 
within  the  free  time,  so  that  I  get  $3  a  car  out  of  liim  in  the  shape  of 
a  demurrage  charge,  which  is  nothing  more  or  less  than  a  refund  or 
rebate,  but  given  in  such  a  way  that  it  is  impossible  to  locate  it. 

Now  that  8hipf>er  could  have  shipped  his  business  on  our  road 
during  that  same  time.  We  had  hundreds  of  cars  standing  idle, 
perhaps.  The  little  road  won't  ask  us  for  our  cars  during  that  p)erioa 
of  time.  They  know  that  if  they  give  as  good  service  as  we  give  and 
do  not  make  these  refunds,  that  we  would  probably  get  the  Dusiness 
anyway.  Again,  it  is  a  thing  that  can  be  manipulatea,  and  any  rule 
that  can  be  manipulated  is  not  a  good  rule  to  put  into  the  hands  of 
promiscuous  people. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  any  greater  danger  of  that  system 
being  used  for  rebating  than  the  system  of  allowing  the  cars  to  stand 
over  the  forty-eight  hours? 

Mr.  Daly.  Under  the  car-service  instructions  and  rules  a  man  that 
permits  a  consignee  to  carry  cars  over  the  free  time,  agent  or  other,  is. 
you  might  say,  willfully  stealing.  At  any  rate,  he  is  disregarding  all 
rules. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  do  not  necessarily  presume  that  all  these 
rebates  or  practices  that  are  illegal  are  willfully  done  by  the  agent. 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes;  but  they  know  they  are  doing  it.  They  know 
what  it  means.  Now,  the  practice  that  I  condemn  is  that  possible  to 
be  indulged  in  by  a  road  that  is  continually,  during  the  dull  season, 
keeping  its  cars  on  another  part  of  the  system,  and  don't  move  them 
from  there  until  this  grain  that  I  have  to  ship  has  an  average  of  about 
$2  or  $3  per  car  reciprocal  demurrage  on  it,  and  then  I  tell  that 
road:  "If  you  don't  order  the  cars  immediately  and  get  them  here  I 
will  load  to-morrow  on  the  other  road."  I  get  my  cars,  but  if  the 
matter  comes  up  afterwards  it  will  be  impossible  to  put  tnat  man  on 
the  stand,  or  the  manager  of  that  railroad,  and  get  any  information 
out  of  him.  They  have  done  all  they  could  to  get  the  cars.  The 
cars  were  not  there;  thev  did  not  have  the  cars,  and  there  would  not 
be  any  incentive  to  build  enough  cars  on  the  part  of  the  weaker  road, 
because  he  could  always  get  the  cream  of  the  business  by  being  short 
during  the  dull  season  when  every  railroad  wants  the  business.  To- 
day we  would  be  glad  if  anybody  wanted  to  part  with  2,000  cars,  say, 
and  we  would  put  them  to  the  best  commercial  use  we  could  give 
them,  but  during  the  summer  months  we  want  the  business. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  take  for  example  a  road  which  does  not 
seem  to  appreciate  its  obligations  as  a  carrier. 

Mr.  Daly.  That  is  what  I  was  coming  to  now.  I  think  the  solution 
of  that  is  the  increase  in  the  per  diem  rate,  which  in  my  opinion  is  a 
very  good  and  wise  move — the  increase  to  50  cents — becau.se  there  are 
certain  small  roads  that  now  order  from  250 — one  road  will  order  250 


360  CAB  SHOBTAQB. 

and  another  one  300  cars,  but  when  they  find  that  borrowing  costs 
enough  to  make  it  pay  them  to  build  their  own  cars  they  are  going  to 
build  them.  That  increase  in  the  per  diem  rat«  will  create  a  certain 
relief.  The  next  relief  ought  to  come,  if  necessary,  to  be  fair  in  the 
proposition,  from  some  law  or  some  body  of  men  (the  Interstate  Com- 
merce Commission  or  others)  who  shall,  if  necessary,  compel  each 
railroad  to  supply  itself  with  a  reasonable  amount  of  equipment  to 
take  care  of  its  business  during  its  busy  season.  But  if  the  thing  is 
limited  to  one  or  two  roads  and  they  are  put  on  the  same  level,  then 
the  road  that  has  actually  done  its  duty  is  condemned  with  a  reciprocal 
demurrage  proposition,  and  to  them  the  penalty  is  applied  just  the 
same  as  to  the  road  that  has  not  done  its  duty. 

For  example,  if  a  railroad  here  at  Chicago,  the  Lake  Shore,  for 
instance,  should  become  blockaded,  and  we  had  to  hold  in  here  for 
them  a  lot  of  cars,  600  or  700  cars,  that  would  retard  the  delivery  of 
the  other  cars  to  the  connection  here  by  reason  of  our  terminal  being 
blocked.  Whv?  Because  we  are  holding  the  other  fellow's  cars. 
He  can  not  take  them,  and  we  can  not  reconsign  them  to  some  other 
road.  He  is  putting  us  in  a  position  where  we  are  violating  a  rule 
and  failing  to  furnish  a  man  with  some  cars,  and  while  it  is  not  at  all 
our  fault,  we  are  penalized  for  it.  That  is  not  fair,  and  that  penalty 
will  not  improve  the  condition.  If  a  road  don't  want  to  build  cars  to 
take  care  or  its  own  business,  a  penalty  assessed  upon  them  for  delay 
won't  bring  about  the  building  of  cars  unless  you  put  it  so  high  that 
there  will  be  a  profit  for  the  investor  that  puts  his  money  into  cars,  so 
that  the  man  that  retains  them  unduly  will  be  at  an  actual  loss. 
Then  you  are  going  to  get  them  to  build  cars.    . 

Mr.  Marble.  The  question  I  asked  you  was  this:  Criticism  is  made 
by  the  raih-oads  of  the  shippers  and  consignees  that  they  hold  the 
cars  an  unreasonable  length  of  time  and  use  them  as  warehouses,  and 
that  criticism  seems  to  be  justified.  What  I  want  to  ask  you  is,  can 
it  fairly  be  hoped  that  the  remedy  for  that  situation  will  come  from 
the  shippers  or  consignees  themselves,  or  does  it  result  from  an  advan- 
tage taKen  of  the  rules  of  the  railroad  company  which  the  railroad 
must  take  the  initiative  in  correcting? 

Mr.  Daly.  It  is  an  advantage  which  they  take  of  the  railroad  rules 
and  the  privileges  which  have  been  given  either  through  competition 
or  on  account  of  the  dealers  getting  so  strong  that  they  are  in  a  posi- 
tion to  tell  the  railroad  what  it  must  do.  If  a  railroad  undertakes  to 
reduce  the  free  time,  which  is  one  of  those  defects  in  the  system — too 
long  a  free  time  at  terminals — they  object  to  it  on  the  ground  that  it 
is  iniiuing  their  business,  yet  they  are  blockading  the  terminals  with 
deacl  cars  that  should  be  moving. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  hoi>e  that  these  shippers  will  put  a  remeay 
into  effect? 

Mr.  Daly.  No;  I  don't  think  they  ever  will.  I  think  it  is  up  to 
the  railroads  to  do  it,  and  it  is  up  to  some  body  of  men  to  tell  the  rail- 
roads that  they  must  do  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  then  that  some  body  in  authority  must 
compel  the  railroads  to  do  it  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes;  because  the  railroads  must  do  it  uniformly.  One 
road  can  not  do  it  alone,  and  neither  should  one  railroad  advocate  it 
alone. 


OAB  SHOBTAOB.  361 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  do  you  mean  by  saying  that  it  is  up  to 
the  railroads  and  up  to  somebody  to  tell  the  railroads  that  they  must 
do  it  (     Must  do  what  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  Why  the^  must  get  the  maximum  service  out  of  their 
facilities  and  their  equipment  in  order  to  take  care  of  and  protect  the 
traffic  offered  them.  Now,  if  we  are  permitting  five  days  free  time, 
and  the  reconsigning  of  coal  or  lumber  and  other  stuff  at  Chicago,  it  is 
tying  up  a  lot  of  cars  and  we  are  not  getting  the  maximum  service  out 
of  our  cars. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  would  like  to  have  some  authority, 
then  tell  you  to  cut  down  the  time,  tell  all  the  roa<ls? 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  we  will  the  1st  of  December  cut  down  the  coal  free 
time  to  three  days,  although  the  rule  at  Chicago  is  five  days  uniformly. 
Now,  our  people  may  become  verj'  much  displeased  at  our  treatment  of 
them,  our  own  patrons,  and  they  can  put  their  orders  on  another  rail- 
road in  the  summer,  or  from  now  on,  and  we  will  lose  by  it.  But  if  all 
the  railroads  uniformly  offered  the  same  treatment,  then  no  particular 
railroad  is  injured. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  might  be  a  different  rule  provided  to 
be  effective  in  one  place  than  in  another  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  We  must  make  some  provision  for  these  people  that 
have  not  got  coal  storage  to  take  care  of  them.  Right  here  in  Chicago, 
necessarily,  under  the  conditions  existing,  we  must  make  some  pro- 
visions for  them.  For  instance,  take  the  Union  Stock  Yards.  Tnere 
is  a  place  where  millions  of  dollars  are  invested.  We  could  not  go  out 
And  say  to  those  people  that,  "We  will  not  carry  a  reasonable  supply 
of  coal  for  vour  plant,  "  because  we  have  been  doing  it  for  years,  and  it 
would  be  almost  criminal  to  undertake  to  stop  that  right  awav. 

Wliat  I  am  sajing  is,  that  I  believe  that  the  large  manufacturing 
companies  themselves,  or  many  of  them,  have  not  ample  facilities  to 
store  a  reasonable  supply  of  raw  material,  and  they  should  find  better 
facilities  outside  where  they  could  do  it,  and  I  think  they  will  eventu- 
ally be  compelled  to  do  so.  Otherwise  our  expenses  will  increase 
from  year  to  year  in  taking  care  of  the  traffic. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  that  is  one  rule  that  you  would  have 
some  power  to  enforce,  the  rule  as  to  the  limitation  of  the  free  time? 

Mr.  Daly.  I  think  that  is  correct;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  other  rule  should  there  be  as  to  recon- 
signment? 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  I  think  that  there  should  be  some  fair  rule  which 
would  afford  the  shipper,  the  large  man,  that  does  not  hold  or  recon- 
sign  cars,  justice  as  against  the  man  that  carries  his  brokerage 
office  in  his  pocket.  This  man  that  reconsigns  from  this  point  to 
another  point  is  retarding  the  car  from  two  to  three  days  at  each 
point,  and  that  is  ecpial  to  three  dollars  in  the  value  of  the  car,  and 
in  that  way  he  is  running  the  other  man  short.  If  he  gets  two  or 
three  reconsignments,  that  is  $6  or  $8  that  he  has  cost  the  company. 
I  lis  shipment  has  cost  the  company  $8  more  to  handle  than  that  of 
the  man  who  billed  his  right  through  to  the  point  where  he  con- 
signed it.  Now,  that  $8  comes  out  of  the  gross  earnings  of  the  com- 
pany, and  the  man  that  handled  his  shipment  promptly  has  stood 
nis  projx)rtion  of  that  $8,  when  he  should  not  be  compelled  to  stand  it. 

Ir,  in  the  other  words,  we  get  $40  from  both  of  tnem  on  the  same 


362  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

quantity  of  lumber,  we  will  say  that  one  man  stopped  it  three  times, 
and  reconsigned  it  until  he  got  a  chance  to  sell  it.  The  other  man  is 
a  business  man,  has  large  interests  here  and  yards.  He  bills  his  stuff 
right  straight  through.  The  car  which  he  billed  through  went 
through  in  five  days.  The  car  that  was  held  back  came  through  in 
fifteen  days.  Now,  that  man  that  reconsigned  his  shipment  cost 
us  the  loss  of  the  use  of  the  car  for  ten  daysj  or  a  minimum  of  $5,  but 
he  don't  pay  it.  There  is  no  charge  on  it.  The  other  man  was 
charged  $10,  and  we  made  $5  more  net  profit  out  of  him  than  we  did 
out  of  the  first  one.  Consequently,  I  believe  that  each  individual 
shipment  should  stand  its  cost  of  transportation  individually — each 
commodity;  not  to  make  a  lot  of  money  on  lumber  and  lose  on  coal, 
or  make  a  lot  on  coal  and  lose  on  lumber.  If  you  offer  a  privilege  on 
certain  commodities  to  the  detriment  of  other  commodities,  you  are 
discriminating  more  or  less  in  favor  of  the  first  one.  I  do  not  tliink 
that  is  fair,  and  I  do  not  think  it  has  been  looked  on  in  that  light. 

I  have  got  one  more  point  on  this  question  of  coal  car  supply.  We 
are  short  of  coal  cars  and  have  been.  We  are  short  of  coal  cars,  in  my 
judgment,  for  the  reason  that  we  are  loading  in  the  cars  company  coal 
to-day.  We  are  loading  about  275  cars  a  day  at  the  mines  for  our  own 
use.  We  are  taking  probably  30  or  40  cars  of  chute  coal  direct  from 
the  mines  onto  the  engines.  That  is  our  consumption,  about  300  cars 
a  day.  Last  year,  and  every  year  for  the  past  tour  or  five  years,  we 
have  stored  a  large  quantity  of  coal  on  the  ground.  This  year  we  did 
not,  for  the  reason  that  during  the  months  of  April  and  May,  and 
indeed  up  to  the  middle  of  June,  we  had  a  strike  all  over  the  country. 
During  the  months  of  April,  May,  Jime,  and  July^ — those  are  our  dull 
months,  on  coal  and  freight  traffic.  We  aimed  to  load  an  extensive 
supply  of  company  coal  during  that  period  and  haul  it  to  our  most 
distant  points  in  Louisiana  and  Mississippi,  in  Iowa  and  Dakota, 
and  there  xmload  it  on  the  ground.  Ordmarily  we  keep  as  high  as 
from  350,000  tons  to  400,000  tons  of  coal  on  the  ground  during  the 
summer  for  our  use  during  the  winter.  The  fact  that  this  strike  was 
on  during  that  period  prevented  us  from  getting  coal  during  the  time 
that  we  could  handle  it  to  the  best  advantage.  Now,  that  has  caused 
this  effect:  We  are  obliged  to  take  100  cars  a  day  to  put  into  the  com- 
pany coal  traffic,  which  cars  ordinarily  would  have  gone  into  the  com- 
mercial traffic.  That  100  cars  a  day  for  thirty  days  requires  2,000 
cars.  A  car  will  make  two  round  trips  to  the  mines  in  twenty  da3'^s 
from  the  farther  points.  They  make  one  trip  and  a  half  a  month — 
cars  loaded  with  company  coal — on  account  of  the  delay  in  switching 
and  in  terminals.     That  has  taken  2,000  cars  now  to  protect  our  com- 

fany  fuel,  and  those  are  cars  which,  had  it  not  been  for  the  strike  that 
have  mentioned,  we  could  have  thrown  into  the  pool  for  commercial 
business. 

Now  it  also  affects  the  handling  of  business  on  these  terminals.  We 
are  bringing  in  on  the  terminals  here,  to  go  south  toward  New 
Orleans,  this  company  coal  every  day,  which  would  not  be  passing 
through  here  now  under  ordinary  conditions  at  all.  We  would  be 
doing  that  much  more  commercial  business  for  our  patrons,  and  also  it 
follows  that  we  would  have  that  many  more  en^rines  for  commercial 
use  that  are  now  being  used  in  taking  care  of  the  100  cars  a  day.  Had 
not  those  conditions  been  forced  upon  us  we  would  have  had  the  ben- 
efit of  that  power.     Now,  that  is  taking  away  from  us  all  those  f acil- 


OAB  SHOBTAOB.  363 

ities  by  reason  of  being  obliged  to  handle  company  coal  now  instead  of 
during  the  summer.  Of  course,  that  is  not  a  thing  that  can  be  pre- 
vented. The  strike  was  there,  and  that  is  all  there  was  to  it.  We  nad 
to  make  the  best  of  it.  After  the  men  resumed  work,  the  coal  supply 
available  at  industries  and  other  places  had  been  exhausted  practi- 
caUy,  and  they  had  to  replenish  a  certain  amount  of  that,  and  we  were 
unable  to  get  the  surplus  coal  for  company  use  because  it  was  then 
being  taken  up  in  replenishing  the  stock  that  had  been  used  up  on 
account  of  the  strike. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Where  do  you  get  your  coal  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  We  have  got  142  mines  on  our  own  railroad  in  south- 
em  Illinois,  in  Lasalle  County,  in  East  St.  Louis,  Kentucky,  and 
elsewhere. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Are  you  able  now  to  furnish  the  coal  cars? 

Mr.  Daly.  Not  all  that  are  required. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  much  are  you  short? 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  we  are  short — the  orders  will  go  about  250  cars,  a 
day.  We  have  a  supply  Monday,  Tuesday,  and  Wednesday,  as  a 
rule,  but  the  latter  part  of  the  week  we  will  be  200  or  300  cars  short. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Suppose  a  man  kept  a  standing  order  for 
25  cars  a  day? 

Mr.  Daly.  He  would  get  75  to  85  cars  a  week. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Seventy-five  to  85  per  cent? 

Mr.  Daly.  No;  he  would  be  getting  about  60  per  cent — ^not  over 
that.  That  condition,  of  course,  is  one  that  we  could  not  foresee, 
neither  could  we  build  or  buy  cars  in  the  endeavor  to  prevent  it  after 
that  stnke  occurred.  That  is  simply  a  condition  brought  about  by 
the  strike,  and  it  is  going  to  remam  until  normal  conditions  prevaU 
once  more. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  do  not  attribute  the  shortage  of  coal 
in  the  northwestern  country  to  that,  do  you  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  No;  they  get  their  coal  mostly  from  Duluth. 

Conunissioner  Harlan.  And  these  mines  do  not  supply  Duluth? 

Mr.  Daly.  No;  we  did  supply  the  Northern  Pacific  and  the  Great 
Northern  with  some  company  coal,  I  think,  not  long  ago.  They  have 
got  more  facilities  now  of  their  own,  engines,  &c.  and  the  commercial 
coal  is  being  taken  care  of  from  those  cars — iiay  and  coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  the  Illinois  Central  sufficient  power? 

Mr.  Daly.  Ample.  There  is  a  full  supply  of  power,  and  the  power 
was  never  in  better  condition.  We  have  not  any  congestion  of  any 
kind  anywhere  on  the  system.  The  system  is  absolutely  free  and  open, 
enabling  us  to  move  business  promptly  and  regularly. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Has  tnere  been  any  congestion  in  the  Gulf 
ports? 

Mr.  Daly.  There  is  a  big  one  at  Galveston. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  mean  on  your  line. 

Mr.  Daly.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  Gulf  port  do  you  reach  besides  New 
Orleans? 

Mr.  Daly.  New  Orleans  is  clear.  I  was  down  there  for  ten  days 
recently. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  that  the  only  port  you  reach  on  the  Gulf? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes;  that  is  our  export  point,  and  it  is  now  entirely 
clear,  and  there  are  ample  facilities  for  everything  that  comes  in 


364  CAR  SHOBTAGB. 

there.     It  is  in  splendid  condition,  and  it  never  was  in  better  condition 
than  it  is  to-day. 

Mr.  Marble.  Why  are  not  the  rails  of  the  Chicago  Union  Transfer 
Railway  Company  (I  believe  it  is  called  that,  these  yards  outside 
here) — why  are  they  not  more  generally  used? 

Mr.  Daly.  That  is  the  Stickney  track? 

Commissioner  Lane.  It  is  called,  I  believe,  the  clearing  track. 

Mr.  Daly.  I  do  not  know.  I  could  not  answer  that.  I  have  seen 
blueprints  of  it,  and  the  various  companies  have  committees  investi- 
gating it.  That,  however,  is  a  very  serious  proposition  for  railroads  to 
undertake,  to  abandon  their  own  facilities  now,  and  open  up  in  some 
new  point.  Such  a  thing  takes  time  to  work  it  up.  There  is  no  c[ues- 
tion  m  my  mind  but  what,  in  time,  the  roads  that  have  not  facilities  in 
the  outlying  districts  and  that  are  dependent  on  doing  their  business 
mostly  down  in  this  congested  field  will  have  to  go  somewhere,  and  that 
woula  be  their  point. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  think  it  is  a  practicable  plan  that  is  being 
worked  out  there? 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  I  think  it  can  be  made  practicable.  But  whether 
it  will  be  at  a  greater  expense  than  they  now  incur  in  handling  the 
business  themselves  is  another  feature.  It  may  be  that  it  is  so  big 
that  it  would  be  an  enormous  expense  imposed  on  those  roads  that 
come  into  such  an  arrangement ;  still  the  volume  of  business  may  be 
such  and  it  may  be  so  handled  that  it  may  miuimize  the  expense  per 
car. 

Mr.  Marble.  To  be  large  enough  to  be  equal  to  the  situation  in 
Chicago  it  would  have  to  be  too  expensive  for  a  small  business,  I 
presume  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  I  think  so.  ^ 

Mr.  Marble.  In  transporting  cotton  or  grain,  how  many  hours  on 
suck  shipments  are  cars  delayed  at  each  terminal  point  ?  Take  ship- 
ments going  300  to  500  miles — and  when  you  are  telling  us  how  this 
train  would  move,  tell  us  what  yo«  estimate  the  delay  to  be  at  division 
points. 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  the  delay  could  not  be  over  twelve  hours  at  a  divi- 
.  sion  terminal.     If  the  density  of  the  traffic  is  sufficient 

Mr.  Marble.  You  mean  twelve  hours  for  each  100  miles? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes,  at  the  end  of  every  district ;  but  if  the  density  of  the 
traffic  is  sufficient  to  justify  the  malang  up  oi  a  solid  train  at  the  initial 
point  to  go  through  to  final  destination  that  time  could  be  reduced. 
For  example,  if  at  Chicago  the  Lake  Shore  has  traffic  enough  so  that 
they  can  pass  it  over  a  gravity  track  and  make  up  a  solid  traiu  for 
New  York  on  one  track  and  on  another  track  a  solid  train  for  Philadel- 
phia, and  on  another  track  a  solid  train  for  Boston,  when  they  start' 
them  out  that  train  then  is  not  broken  at  all  until  it  reaches  destina- 
tion, unless,  of  course,  a  car  becomes  in  bad  order  by  a  hot  box,  or 
something  of  that  kind.  Ordinarily  traffic  will  not  permit  goino;  to  the 
expense  necessary  of  equipping  your  terminal  with  that  kind  of  a  yard 
for  that  kind  of  business.  Consequently  we  must,  on  the  Memphis 
and  South  business,  build  our  trains  up  with  traffic  for  Cleveland  and 
Vicksburg,  Natchez,  Baton  Rouge,  and  all  points.  WTien  it  gets  to 
the  terminal,  they  must  break  that  train  up  and  cut  out  the  cars  that 
are  for  that  point,  and  for  the  local  stations  that  are  between  there 
and  the  end  of  the  next  district,  and  those  cars  go  out  on  the  way 


OAR  SHORTAOB,  365 

freight  in  the  morning.  That  is  done|to  prevent  this  train  of  which  I 
speak  from  having  to  stop  in  its  farther  progress  to  set  cars  out. 
Of  course,  under  those  circumstances  your  switching  power  must  be 
held  in  readiness  to  take  care  of  that  train,  ami  you  are  constantlv 
breaking  trains  un,  and  where  the  contiitions  of  traffic  are  heavy  it  is 
impossible  to  build  up  trains  solid  in  that  wayj  and  it  consecjuently 
takes  considerable  time  to  get  through  division  points. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  your  export  cotton  sliipments  lose  twelve  hours 
at  each  division  point? 

Mr.  Daly.  No;  not  on  the  average  export  business.  That  is 
handled  in  solid  through  trains  at  a  higher  rate  than  the  ordinary 
domestic  cotton,  domestic  flour,  or  coal,  or  other  low-grade  traflic 
like  lumber.  Export  is  considered  rush  freight,  for  the  reason  that 
we  have  got  to  make  boats  that  are  tied  at  the  dock  waiting  for  the 
freight,  or  else  we  delay  them. 

Mr.  Marble  (referring  to  an  exhibit  prepared  and  produced  by 
Mr.  Daly,  for  this  hearing).  This  equipment  sheet  which  you  give  ua 
is  made  up  from  the  records  of  the  company,  and  is  correct! 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes,  sir. 

(The  same  is  hereto  attached  and  marked  Exhibit  No.  1  to  Mr. 
Daly's  testimony.) 

CJommissioner  Lane.  Suppose  that  you  find  a  railroad  which  takes 
for  a  direct  haul  of  350  miles  an  average  of  more  than  ten  days  on  a 
train,  trains  that  are  made  up  as  a  whole  for  one  point,  what  power 
should  be  exercised  to  remedy  such  a  condition  of  thin^? 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  it  depends  upon  what  their  conditions  were.  1i 
they  were  just  recovering  from  some  washout,  or  serious  accident 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  am  talking  about  normal  conditions. 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  imder  normal  conditions,  I  do  not  think  that 
should  exist  at  all. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  kind  of  a  rule  could  be  put  into  effect 
there,  which  would  prevent  such  a  condition  of  affairs  * 

Mr.  Daly.  I  think  the  consignee  should  bring  suit  for  damages. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  a  very  unsatisfactory  and  inadequate 
remedy,  is  it  not. 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  it  is  a  safe  one  at  any  rate.  It  is  then  handling 
that  individual  case  on  its  own  merits.  We  have  suits  brought  in 
Mississippi  for  failure  to  handle  cotton  during  the  years  of  1903  and 
1904.  We  had  a  good  deal  of  trouble  then  with  our  power,  and  we 
were  double  trackmg  our  road  and  were  rather  demoralized  by  con- 
struction work.  We  have  suits  pending  there,  and  of  course  those 
people  knew  at  the  time  that  the  freight  was  offered  to  us,  what  the 
conditions  were.  But  it  is  up  to  the  jury  that  are  on  tlio  ground, 
men  located  in  that  section,  to  weigh  the  matter  and  determine  the 
case  on  its  merits. 

In  the  instance  of  which  you  speak  (replying  to  Commissioner  Lane's 
inquiry,  as  to  a  350-mile  run)  I  do  not  think  that  for  me  to  say  that 
that  road  should  handle  that  traffic  over  350  miles  in  five  days,  or 
seven  days,  would  be  manifesting  any  intelligence  at  all.  A  man 
would  have  to  know  what  the  conditions  were. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  here,  we  will  say,  is  a  line 

Mr.  Daly.  On  the  general  proposition  I  would  say  that  they  ought 
to  do  much  better  than  that. 


366  CAB  SHORTAGB. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  have  some  figures  presented  to  us,  I  think, 
which  show  that,  taking  several  hundred  cars  together,  those  cars  would 
average  300  miles  distance  traveled  in  approxmfiately  twenty  days — 
twenty  days  taken  to  haul  the  cars  that  distance.  Now,  supposing 
that  there  is  a  policy  followed,  which  leads  to  that  result:  Can  you 
suggest  a  remedy  by  which  that  policy  would  be  changed,  and  by 
which  it  would  be  made  to  the  interests  of  the  company  to  see  that  it 
is  changed  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  I  don't  know.  I  think  that  the  higher  rental  of  the  cars 
in  their  service  would  very  soon  straighten  that  all  out,  because  they 
could  not  afford  to  allow  cars  to  spend  twenty  days'  time  in  their 
movement,  because  at  a  dollar  a  day  it  would  eat  up  their  profits. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Suppose  these  are  their  own  cars  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  That  can  not  very  well  be.  They  can  not  afford  to 
build  cars.  A  road  in  that  condition  is  badly  congested  with  foreign 
cars  and  it  is  in  a  position  of  "having  bitten  off  more  than  it  can 
chew. "  If  they  have  had  a  strike  of  their  machinists  or  something  of 
that  kind  during  the  summer,  when  they  should  have  been  putting 
their  power  in  shape,  and  they  go  into  the  winter  with  the  power  in 
bad  condition,  they  are  then  in  a  position  where  they  can  not  move  the 
traffic  in  less  time.  If  the  power  is  all  in  bad  shape,  they  can  not  stop 
it  aU  and  put  it  all  in  the  shop  without  closing  up,  and  I  presume  that 
they  are  trying  to  struggle  through  with  it.  But  if  the  rental  on  the 
cars  is  put  to  a  sufficiently  high  point,  it  will  soon  bring  them  to  move 
their  cars  in  less  time.  That  is,  if  there  is  a  man  who  is  delaying 
them,  he  will  be  called  to  account,  and  there  is  more  money  to  be 
made  by  moving  the  traffic  more  rapidly  than  by  letting  the  cars  stand 
on  the  side  trac-ks,  loaded  or  empty,  and  if  they  move  them  more 
promptly,  that  is  what  we  want. 

I  think  that  the  increase  in  the  per  diem  rate  will  prove  to  be  a  big 
incentive  toward  bringing  about  more  prompt  movement — an  in- 
crease in  the  per  diem  and  less  of  these  concessions  to  shippers  and 
consignees.  When  we  find  we  have  got  to  pay  50  cents  or  75  cents 
for  a  car,  and  a  man  wants  to  hold  it  for  ten  days,  we  must  necessarily 
say  to  him  "You  must  pay  us  $5  for  the  privilege."  Nowadays  we 
don't  tell  him  to  pay  anything,  but  we  should  make  him  pay  rental 
on  the  car,  and  the  switching  expense  required,  and  I  beheve  that 
the  higher  rental  will  bring  about  largely  all  the  benefits  that  we  are 
looking  for.  I  actually  believe  that.  We  are  just  now  getting  to  a 
point  where  the  executive  officers  are  appreciating  that  fact,  and  are 
giving  to  us  what  we  asked  for  20  years  a^o,  a  higher  per  diem  rate. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  the  opinion  of  operating  oflBicials  of 
railroads  generally? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes,  I  think  it  is. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  One  of  the  States,  I  beUeve,  has  certain 
legislation  requiring  an  average  movement  of  50  miles  per  day  for 
each  car.  Do  you  think  such  legislation  as  that  would  be  remedial  in 
its  nature  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  No,  I  tliink  that  the  railroads  naturally  will  move  the 
business.  They  must  do  it.  I  know  we  take  up  the  delay  in  moving 
business.  Where  a  delay  occurs  we  take  it  up  with  the  division 
superintendent,  and  he  with  his  train  master,  and  it  is  investigated 
thoroughly  every  time.     All  we  can  say  to  them  and  all  we  can  do  is 


OAB  SHORTAGB.  367 

said  and  done  to  hurry  the  movement.  We  are  after  that  proposi- 
tion all  the  time. 

Concerning  the  legislation  of  which  you  spoke,  that  would  require 
all  kinds  of  bookkeeping  to  figure  it  out.  Here,  for  example,  is  a  car 
out  of  Boston  going  to  Sioux  Falls.  Now,  what  roads  did  it  go  over? 
What  route  did  it  take,  and  what  was  the  mileage?  Has  it  averaged 
the  required  number  of  miles  per  day  since  it  left  the  initial  point? 
If  we  made  160  miles  on  one  division,  then  we  could  drop  down  and 
make  80  on  the  next,  or  do  nothing  the  next  day,  or  just  enough 
to-morrow  and  the  next  day  to  still  be  within  the  law.  I  think  that 
is  a  difficult  proposition  to  be  determined  or  to  keep  a  line  on — to 
keep  a  check  on.  You  can  see  how  the  question  of  delay  enters  into 
it.  Presumably  the  date  taken,  would  be  the  date  on  the  bill  of 
lading.  For  instance,  you  have  got  to  go  from  the  bill  of  lading. 
Now,  on  that  car  out  of  Boston,  suppose  the  Bolt  Railroad  of  Boston 
may  have  held  that  car  10  days  on  tiieir  track.  Then  the  other  peo- 
ple nmst  overcome  that  10  days  or  we  must  show  where  it  belonged 
and  place  the  fault  where  it  justly  is  due  in  order  to  get  rid  of  the  10 
days  delay  and  balance  up  tne  time  at  80  miles  per  day,  or  whatever 
the  re<iuired  amount  is.  It  would  be  an  awfully  difficult  proposition 
to  handle. 

I  think,  though,  that  railroads  are  constantly  improving  their  facil- 
ities and  their  power,  their  eauipment,  their  roadway,  and  everything 
else,  more  ballast  in  the  roadoeds,  better  and  heavier  rails,  and  better 
power,  and  making  every  effort  to  get  into  shape  to  do  what  is  right. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  think,  however,  that  self-interest 
is  altogether  a  sufficient  motive  to  bring  about  acts  which  will  obviate 
these  conditions,  because  you  advise  tiiat  certain  rules  should  be 
forced  on  the  railroads  by  outside  authorities? 

Mr.  Daly.  That  is  what  I  say,  but  give  us  a  rule  that  is  practicable. 
I  do  not  think  it  is  fair  for  any  corporation  or  anybody  wlio  builds  a 
railroad,  knowing  that  they  will  require  10,000  cars,  to  build  that 
railroad  and  only  equip  it  with  1 ,000  cars.  If  they  could  not  equip 
themselves  with  the  cars  that  the  Government  required  them  to,  or 
should  require  them  to,  then  they  should  not  start  to  build  it.  If  they 
do  start  to  build  it,  then  they  should  stand  their  proportion  of  the 
general  expense  of  conducting  the  transportation  which  they  origi- 
nated. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  then,  if  self-interest  is  not  sufficient  to 
insure  good  public  service,  would  it  not  be  better  than  that  the  au- 
thority you  speak  of  should  be  vested  in  some  person  that  the  result 
should  be  accomplished  in  some  other  way?  That,  for  instance, 
when  I  ask  for  a  car  to  be  delivered  at  a  certain  point  to  be  loadea 
with  coal,  if  my  order  is  in  there  for  three  weeks,  we  will  say,  and  I 
tender  the  money  for  the  transportation  at  the  schedule  rate,  that 
after  a  certain  time,  if  I  can  not  get  that  car,  you  shall  be  penalized  to 
a  certain  extent,  allowing  always,  of  course,  reasonable  leeway. 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  the  railroad,  would  take  care  of  you  all  right,  there 
is  not  any  question  on  that,  but  you  would  still  suffer  if  you  were  a 
big  shipj>er.  Take  the  lumber  snippex  in  the  South,  or  the  grain 
shipper  or  any  coal  shipper.  If  the  lumber  shipper  orders  from  me 
to-day,  or  you  order  five  cars  to  ship  to  Cliicago  and  three  cars  to  ship  to 
St.  Louis,  you  will  say  that  is  on  the  21st  or  20th  of  December.     Now,  I 


368  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

take  a  record  of  that,  and  I  am  given  three  or  four  or  five  days,  I 
think,  in  which  to  furnish  those  cars  to  you,  am  I  not  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes,  you  are  given  a  certain  time. 

Mr.  Daly.  Very  well.  Now,  then,  to-morrow  you  place  another 
order  and  the  next  day  you  place  another  order,  and  on  the  fourth 
day  you  come  in  and  say  "  I  want  two  cars  that  you  gave  me  to-day 
on  that  St.  Louis  order,  I  want  to  apply  them  on  a  Detroit  shipment, 
or  a  Montreal  shipment,  or  a  Boston  shipment. "  Suppose  I  under- 
take to  accommodate  you  in  that  regard  and  cars  on  the  other  orders 
are  therefore  delayed?  For  that  I  am  penalized.  I  say  then,  "No, 
sir.  You  have  put  your  order  in,  and  it  must  be  filled  the  way  you 
gave. it."  That  is,  the  agent,  after  he  has  paid  about  a  dollar  or 
two  dollars  of  this  penalty  to  the  company,  on  account  of  his  negli- 
gence or  his  action,  wUl  take  a  different  position.  The  company  may 
assess  it  over  against  the  employee,  and  he  will  say:  "The  company 
is  fighting  me,  they  are  not  my  friends,  and  now  I  am  going  to  live 
religiously  according  to  Hoyle.  I  accommodated  this  fellow  last 
week,  so  he  could  get  a  sale,  and  I  took  chances.  I  obliged  this 
fellow,  and  brought  down  upon  me  a  penalty  because  of  my  favor 
to  him."  So,  I  say  to  you.  No,  sir;  you  can  not  ship  those  two." 
You  show  me  a  telegram  and  you  say:  "Here  is  an  order;  can  you 
ship  me  such  and  such  dimensions?  What  is  your  price?"  Or,  "At 
such  and  such  a  price."  Now,  that  is  a  dollar  or  two  dollars  a  thou- 
sand feet  better  than  you  can  get  at  St.  Louis  or  Chicago,  but  in  order 
to  get  it  you  have  got  to  ship  it  to-day  or  to-morrow.  I  say,  "  You 
will  get  the  car  within  five  days." 

They  will  get  arbitrary,  the  agents  will,  just  the  same  as  others. 
They  are  human  beings,  and  have  all  the  frailties  that  anybody  has. 
And  in  place  of  the  privileges  that  we  can  now  extend  you  on  the 
give  and  take  basis,  we  would  be  curtailing  you  and  you  would  have 
to  ship  your  produce  in  the  cars  wliich  you  have  ordered  for  that 
particular  purpose. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  if  the  shipper  has  the  benefit  of  the 
give  and  take  proposition,  then  he  of  course  waives  the  obligation 
on  your  part  to  furnish  him  with  the  cars.  It  is  only  when  the  shipper 
knows  definitely  what  he  wants  and  orders  it  that  you  would  be  in 
any  way  responsible. 

Mr.  Daly.  If  we  refuse  to  allow  him  the  two  cars  for  Boston,  and 
he  loses  that  shipment,  it  then  ma^'  be  placed  on  the  New  Orleans  and 
Northeastern,  and  we  lose  that  haul;  and  while  we  still  get  his  two 
St.  Louis  cars  and  five  cars  for  Chicago,  that  is  where  it  hurts  us;  but, 
by  the  liberal,  give-and-take,  hejp-each-other  policy  he  would  be 
given  facilities  for  those  two  carloads  of  business  to  Boston,  and 
we  would  probably  take  care  of  the  other  business  that  he  might 
have  within  the  five-day  period.  But  the  agent's  instructions  would 
be. '  'You  must  deal  out  those  cars  according  to  the  manner  in  which 
the  orders  for  them  are  placed,  and  the  shipper  must  ship  to  the  point 
where  he  orders  the  cars  for,  and  if  you  do  otherwise  you  take  the 
chances." 

Commissioner  Lane.  Here  are  the  facts  that  appear  in  our  record : 
That  a  man  orders  a  car  or  three  cars  on  the  21st  day  of  October,  and 
when  the  25th  day  of  November  comes  around  he  has  not  yet  received 
those  three  cars.  Now,  that  is  not  a  single  solitary  instance,  but 
there  are  many  cases  of  that  kind,  accounts  of  which  we  have  in  the 


CAB  SHOBTAOB.  869 

record  of  this  hearing.  What  I  want  to  know  is,  what  remedy  can 
be  devised,  through  the  railroads  or  otherwise,  by  which  such  a  con- 
dition of  things  can  be  and  will  be  relieved. 

Mr.  Daly.  The  onlv  thing  I  can  see  in  a  case  of  that  kind  is  that 
the  order  has  been  mislaid  somewhere,  in  the  dispatcher's  office  or  in 
the  agent's  office. 

Commissioner  Lane.  But  there  is  no  excuse  of  that  kind  made. 

Mr.  Daly.  Ttien  the  agent  did  not  make  the  proper  effort  to  get 
the  cars.  I  do  not  think  any  railroad  has  been  tnirty  days  short  on 
cars.  I  tliink  our  shippers  can  not  complain  of  any  such  condition 
as  that,  and  I  think  that  in  the  instance  of  which  you  speak  other 
shippers  nuist  have  received  cars  that  they  had  ordered  after  these 
particular  cars  were  ordered.  I  do  not  think  that  any  railroad  is  in 
that  condition.  There  must  have  been  some  misunderstanding,  or 
some  error  in  the  placing  of  the  order. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Why  not  say  that  it  is  due  to  mismanage- 
ment? 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  it  is  about  the  same  thing. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Would  you  not  think  that  there  should  be 
some  direct  way  of  penalizing  that  mismanagement? 

Mr.  Daly.  A\ell,  1  do  not  know  how  vou  could  do  it,  unless  it 
would  be  to  penalize  the  agent  that  did  not  call  the  dispatcher's 
attention  to  it  from  day  to  ciay — not  necessarily  every  day  but  every 
few  daj-s,  every  little  while  for  a  week.  The  difficulty  is,  or  one  of 
the  many  difficulties,  that  if  you  discharge  him  you  get  a  worse  one, 
or  probably,  what  is  even  worse  yet,  vou  get  none  at  all;  because 
the  market  is  about  as  scarce  on  goo^  agents  as  it  is  on  any  other 
kind  of  labor. 

Commissioner  Lane.  In  the  case  that  I  had  in  mind  there  is  no 
such  excuse  as  that.  The  attention  of  the  heads  of  the  railroad 
were  brought  to  the  matter  by  telegrams,  and  the  demands  that 
had  been  made  on  the  local  agent,  and  there  had  been  no  relief  given. 

Mr.  Daly.  According  to  my  view  of  the  matter,  the  shipper  and  the 
consignee  should  receive  from  the  railroad,  with  which  they  do  business, 
reasonably  fair  treatment.  If  they  do  not,  or  if  they  are  damaged, 
I  believe  that  the  railroad  should  be  made  to  pay  for  it.  1  do  not 
know  of  any  way  of  achieving  that  end  better  than  by  a  damage 
suit  brought  in  the  regular  way  in  court.  What  I  am  criticizing 
among  other  things,  are  the  theoretical  rules  that  have  been  advanced 
as  solutions  for  the  present  difficulties.  What  I  want  to  see  is  a 
practical  rule.  If  there  is  such  a  thing  I  want  to  see  it.  The  rail- 
roads have  made  mistakes  in  the  last  20  years  in  adopting  certain 
so-called  reforms  on  the  spur  of  the  moment.  They  have  been 
sorry  for  it  afterwards. 

We  adopted  a  penalty  rule  on  the  per  diem  that  we  were  very 
sorry  for,  and  that  did  not  work  out  at  all  to  our  satisfaction.  That 
nile  was  to  the  effect  that  after  a  road  liold  a  car  for  thirty  con- 
secutiv^e  days,  the  road  would  pay  80  cents  penalty,  and  20  cents 
per  diem,  making  the  total  sum  a  dollar  for  every  day  they  held  the 
car  over  thirty  days.  We  thought  that  was  going  to  be  a  means  of 
affording  considerable  relief;  but  the  re^^ult  was  that  about  the 
twenty-sixth  or  the  twenty-eighth  day  the  road  that  had  had  this 
car  for  that  length  of  time  would  immediately  load  it  and  send  it  to 

S.  Doc.  333. 5»-2 ^24 


370  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

the  other  end  of  the  country  in  order  to  break  the  thirty-day  rule, 
and  they  would  then  pick  up  a  new  one.  Now  that  taught  us  this 
lesson:  To  try  out  our  rules  before  we  adopted  them;  to  see  where 
they  are  weak,  and  test  them,  and  if  it  is  a  rule  that  is  going  to  give 
us  relief,  then  put  it  into  operation,  but  if  it  is  not  to  eschew  it. 
If  it  is  a  rule  that  is  impracticable,  to  drop  it,  and  such  I  think 
reciprocal  demurrage  would  be. 

Mr.  Marble.  There  is  a  gentleman  here  who  wishes  to  ask  Mr. 
Daly  some  questions,  if  the  Commission  will  permit. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Very  well;  proceed. 

Mr.  Berry  (of  the  Berry  Coal  and  Coke  Company,  Fischer  Build- 
incr,  Chicago.)  You  say  it  ought  to  be  necessary  for  some  power  out- 
side of  the  railroads  to  compel  the  companies  or  force  them  to  compel 
the  shipper  to  give  the  final  destination  of  cars  when  he  makes  a  ship- 
ment in  order  to  avoid  the  delay  consequent  to  reconsignment  and 
so  on. 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  I  think  something  along  that  line  is  necessary; 
yes. 

Mr.  Berry.  And  you  say  that  the  only  power  that  could  do  that 
would  be  the  Interstate  Commerce  Conrmiission. 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  I  would  assume  that  that  would  be  the  natural 
channel  through  which  they  would  take  action  or  irom  which  some 
such  rule  shomd  come. 

Mr.  Berry.  And  you  say  that  the  railroads  themselves  could  not 
agree  on  that  among  themselves? 

Mr.  Daly.  No;  no  more  than  they  could  on  rates. 

Mr.  Berry.  Did  they  have  any  trouble  in  agreeing  several  years 
ago  as  to  the  formation  of  the  Car  Service  Association? 

Mr.  Daly.  No;  I  do  not  know  that  they  did. 

Mr.  Berry.  And  it  has  been  in  operation  about  twelve  or  fifteen 
years,  has  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes,  I  think  it  has. 

Mr.  Berry.  Never  has  had  a  break  in  it,  has  it? 

Mr.  Daly.  Well,  no;  not  so  far  as  I  know.  It  has  never  been  dis- 
organized or  anything  of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Berry.  All  the  railroads  are  connected  with  that  association, 
are  thev  not  ? 

Mr.  I)aly.  Well,  I  do  not  know  exactly.  I  know  there  are  a  great 
many  members  of  the  Car  Service  Association  here,  I  think  about 
24  or  25. 

Mr.  Berry.  And  it  is  a  fact,  is  it  not,  that  only  eight  or  nine  of  the 
roads  here  bring  the  coal  in  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  No,  I  guess  there  are  probably  ten  or  twelve. 

Mr.  Berry.  About  seven  of  them  bring  in  the  majority  of  it,  don't 
they?  ^ 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes,  four  will  probably  bring  in  the  majority  out  of  the 
nine  or  ten  or  twelve. 

Mr.  Berry.  Then,  as  I  imderstand  it  from  what  you  say,  the  rail- 
roads have  no  trouble  in  making  an  agreement  among  themselves  for 
all  the  24  roads  when  they  get  the  cars  to  Chicago  and  get  their  reve- 
nue out  of  them,  but  the  seven  or  eicrht  roads  that  bring  the  coal  in 
can  not  agree  upon  the  proper  method  of  making  a  final  cOsposition  of 
the  coaL     Whenever  the  traffic  has  been  handled  and  they  have 


CAB  SHORTAGB.  371 

gotten  their  revenue  out  of  the  car,  then  it  is  easy  enough  for  them  to 
agree  on  the  matter  of  car  service. 

Mr.  Daly.  Why,  I  do  not  know  that  there  is  any  uniform  car- 
serxdce  charge  of  a  dollar  a  day  all  through  the  country.  That  does 
not  furnish 

Mr.  Berry.  Is  there  not  an  association  here  to  which  every  railroad 
in  Chicago  is  bound,  and  don't  they  act  together,  and  isn't  the  decision 
of  that  association  absolutolv  arbitrary? 

Mr.  Daly.  No,  sir;  absolutely  not.  We  have  one  agent  here, 
one  man,  our  agent,  that  takes  care  of  all  complaints  that  are  offered 
by  shippers,  and  he  carefully  investigates  the  matter  and  adjusts  it  as 
best  he  may.  Now,  we  have  got  a  manager  and  we  have  provided  for 
the  organization  of  a  Car  Service  Association  in  order  that  it  may  be 
imiform,  and  that  it  may  handle  the  situation  with  some  degree  of 
facility.  It  is  absolutely  necessary  that  we  have  such  a  thing,  other- 
wise we  would  have  no  car  service. 

Mr.  Berry.  I  challenge  any  shipper  in  this  community,  or  any- 
where else,  or  any  man  m  this  room  to  state  if  they  have  ever  had  $1 
worth  of  car  service  or  $1  worth  of  anything  they  didn't  pay  for  from 
anv  railroad  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  The  arrangements  have  been  made,  justified  by  the  con- 
ditions, so  as  to  as  properly  as  possible  handle  those  conditions? 

Mr.  Berry.  Has  it  ever  been  made  except  through  the  Car  Service 
Association,  and  just  one  man?  Doesn't  one  man  have  all  the  say 
about  it? 

Mr.  Daly.  In  any  settlement,  our  agent  must  approve  of  the 
arranojement.  He  must  investigate  the  case  and  know  that  it  is 
right  before  any  arrangement  is  made. 

Mr.  Berry.  I  ask  any  man  here  that  is  a  shipper  if  he  has  ever  had 
any  communication  from  any  agent  of  any  railroad  that  he  has  not 
had  to  refer  to  the  one  man  who  is  the  head  of  the  Car  Service  Asso- 
ciation in  Chicago,  and  if  until  that  man  said  that  a  thing  could  be 
done  that  they  could  not  do  it — if  he  has  not  been  told  that  that 
was  their  rule? 

Mr.  Daly.  The  car-service  manager  can  not  say  or  do  anything  at 
any  time  until  he  has  obtained  from  our  anient  the  facts  in  connection 
with  the  case.  He  is  then  informed  whether  or  not,  in  the  judgment 
of  our  a^ent,  the  case  is  meritorious,  and  we  know  whether  we  are 
justified  m  making  any  refund.  As  a  general  rule,  we  find  that  our 
agent  is  altogether  too  lenient  in  recommending  refunds. 

Mr.  Berry.  Does  not  the  agent  himself  refer  you  to  the  Car  Service 
Association?  Does  not  the  Car  Service  Association  say — aren't  they 
the  people  that  can  make  the  refund,  and  are  you  permitted  to  make 
it  otherwise? 

Mr.  Daly.  Why,  we  don't  ask  the  car-service  manager  for  authority 
on  any  refund.  Don't  you  understand,  he  is  simply  the  agent  of  the 
railroads  of  the  city,  and'  his  decision  is  not  final  in  any  sense.  There 
is  an  executive  committee  of  the  association.  If  we  thought  for  a 
moment  that  he  was  assessing  car  service  that  he  should  not,  and 
was  not  assessing  car  service  that  he  should,  it  is  up  to  us  to  investi- 
gate it  for  our  own  people,  to  see  what  is  coming  to  the  shipper. 

Mr.  Berry.  I  challenge  every  man  here,  and  I  challenge  yourself, 
if  it  is  not  absolutely  true,  and  I  can  prove  it  by  letters,  where  every 


372  CAB   SHOBTAGB. 

single  time  the  agent  himself  states  that  that  is  a  matter  to  go  to  the 
car-service  man  alone,  and  that  he  must  pass  upon  it,  and  that  no 
officer  of  the  railroad  company  can  pass  upon  it. 

Mr.  Daly.  Oh,  well;  that  is  in  order  to  have  the  refunds  or  the 
claims  taken  up  uniformly.  When  he  presents  a  case  to  our  agent  for 
a  refund,  when  the  shipper  does,  we  refer  him  to  the  car-service  mana- 
ager.  The  car-service  manager  must  investigate  that  through  our 
agent,  as  to  whether  or  not  he  (the  shipper)  is  entitled  to  the  refund. 
Our  agent  must  make  the  investigation  personally,  and  mast  recom- 
mend to  the  car-service  manager — or  he  must  state  whether  or  not  the 
refund  is  justifiable  under  the  rules,  or  whether  it  should  not  be  granted, 
and  the  car-service  manager  is  simply  there  to  carry  out  the  rule  uni- 
formly on  every  railroad,  and  it  is  necessary  to  do  that  in  order  to  obtain 
the  results  that  are  required.  If  each  railroad  was  left  to  administer 
its  rules  as  it  saw  fit  in  such  matters,  and  to  say,  for  instance,  that  it 
would  allow  six  days  on  lumber — one  railroad — and  another  railroad 
only  two  or  three  days,  you  would  have  confusion,  and  if  there  were 
rules  which  were  applicable  at  one  point,  uniformly  or  otherwise,  and 
were  not  at  all  applicable  at  another,  you  would  simply  disorganize 
this  entire  organization,  and  you  would  not  bring  about  at  all  what  the 
shippers  are  now  crying  for. 

Mr.  Berry.  The  fact  is  that  all  the  car-service  rules  are  made  uni- 
form. It  is  not  a  matter  of  whether  the  amount  is  right  or  not,  but  it 
is  a  matter  that  one  man  alone  has  the  power  to  decide  whether  they 
are  right  or  not.  I  can  show  you  hundreds  of  letters  from  the  agents, 
from  the  commercial  agent,  and  from  officers  of  the  different  railroads, 
wherein  they  say  that  they  have  no  power  whatever  to  pass  on  this 
question,  and  that  any  action  that  they  take  must  be  recommended  by 
the  superintendent  of  the  car-service  association.  But  we  will  pass 
that  point.  Everybody  knows  that.  The  fact  of  it  is  that  you  want 
the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  to  force  the  railroads  to  insist 
upon  a  final  destination  for  the  coal,  so  that  each  railroad  will  be  com- 
pelled to  do  it.  At  the  same  time  you  had  no  trouble  here  in  combin- 
ing all  the  railroads  in  an  association,  the  object  of  which  was  to  place 
the  car  service  upon  the  same  plane — all  of  you ;  and  yet  you  aidmit 
that  there  are  only  four  or  five  railroads  here  that  carry  the  coal  into 
Chicago.  Then  it  resolves  itself  into  the  fact  that  it  is  a  matter  of 
revenue  that  they  can  not  agree  upon.  When  the  car  gets  here  they 
can  easily  enough  agree  upon  the  car-service,  but  they  can  not  agree  on 
anything  before  the  revenue  is  earned.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  main 
difficulty  is  simply  a  matter  of  jealousy  between  the  railroads  as  to  the 
amount  of  tonnage  wliich  each  one  shall  carry. 

Mr.  Daly.  I  do  not  know  as  to  the  tonnage  and  the  jealousy  you 
speak  about,  but  I  know  this,  that  we  have  reduced  the  free  time  on 
coal  to  our  consignees  to  three  days,  and  to  five  days,  when  the  uni--' 
form  car-service  rule  is  seven  days.  We  notified  the  Car  Service 
Association  to  that  effect,  and  we  are  going  to  do  that  in  order  to 
relieve  this  condition  that  we  have  now.  The  agent  of  the  Car  Serv- 
ice Association  has  been  notified  that  instead  of  allowing  five  days, 
which  the  rules  provide  for,  commencing  with  the  first  of  the  year  we 
will  apply  the  three-day  limit  in  order  to  relieve  these  conditions, 
and  see  if  we  can  not  facilitate  the  more  prompt  movement  of  cars. 
He  knows  what  we  are  going  to  do,  and  our  agent  knows  it.  He  will 
therefore  hereafter,  so  far  as  we  are  concerned,  give  only  three  days. 


OAB  SHOBTAOB.  373 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  a  coal-car  shortage  in  Chicago,  or  a 
shortage  of  coal? 

Mr.  Daly,  No;  but  if  the  roads  get  extremely  cold  weather  or  a 
snow  blockade,  it  will  retard  the  movement  of  the  coal  cominj;  in  and 
retard  the  switching  movement  after  we  get  it  here ;  and  what  we  are 
aiming  to  do  is  to  get  all  the  cars  we  can  to  the  mines  to  protect  our- 
selves against  this  storm  which  we  expect,  naturally,  in  January.  It 
used  to  be  in  December,  the  December  storm,  but  now,  inasnmch  as 
we  have  not  had  it  yet,  we  will  probably  get  it  in  January.  Then 
we  will  get  the  heavy  snow,  and  that  will  retard  the  movement  of  the 
equipment.  We  don't  want  to  get  caught  then  with  a  shortage  of 
coal. 

Mr.  Berrt.  After  you  get  the  car  here,  and  after  you  have  had  your 
traffic  out  of  it,  and  get  your  revenue,  and  when  we  want  that  car 
taken  from  one  railroad  to  another,  they  charge  us  40  cents  a  ton, 
don't  theyl  That  might  be  considered  the  minimum  charge  from 
the  nearest  point  into  Chicago.  If  we  want  to  get  a  car  from  the 
Illinois  Central  over  onto  the  track  of  the  Lake  Shore,  we  have  got  to 
pay  40  cents  a  ton,  haven't  we,  to  do  that? 

Mr.  Daly.  I  do  not  know ;  that  is  a  traffic  matter. 

Mr.  Berry.  Another  fact  is  that  the  railroads  several  times  have 
come  into  the  market  relative  to  switching  cars  from  one  point  to 
another,  but  the  fact  of  it  is  that  they  made  some  sort  of  a — it  made 
some  sort  of  a  friction  as  to  the  amount  of  traffic  they  were  getting 
out  of  it,  and  they  had  to  break  through  on  it. 

Mr.  Daly.  I  do  not  quite  understand  you,  but  I  think  what  you 
refer  to  is  a  matter  that  is  handled  by  our  traffic  department. 

Mr.  Berry.  There  is  no  trouble  m  the  railroads  getting  together, 
as  far  as  the  combination  is  concerned,  in  the  matter  of  car  service 
here,  after  they  have  got  their  coal  to  Chicago,  and  gotten  their 
revenue,  but  it  seems  that  five  or  six  roads  can't  agree  upon  the  mat- 
ter of  the  final  destination  of  the  cars  and  the  length  of  time  allowed 
for  reconsignment,  and  they  want  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commis- 
sion to  come  in  and  force  the  railroads  to  do  that  now. 

Mr.  Daly.  I  might  explain  that  in  this  way.  The  question  of  car 
service  is  handled  by  our  own  operating  departments.  The  question 
of  reconsignments  and  those  privileges  which  are  extended  and  of 
which  I  have  spoken,  in  order  to  secure  traffic,  are  handled  by  the 
traffic  department,  and  it  is  a  well-known  fact  that  the  op>erating  man 
belongs  to  associations.  The  operating  men  have  associations  all 
over  this  country,  all  the  railway  men  do,  the  master  mechanics,  the 
car  accountants,  and  all  the  others,  and  those  associations  get  together 
and  we  discuss  these  matters  and  see  if  we  can  agree  on  certain  lines 
of  action.  We  are  doing  the  best  we  can.  Now  the  question  that 
you  are  asking  largely  refers  to  the  traffic  department  and  traffic 
manager. 

The  matter  of  reconsignments  and  the  various  requirements  that 
exist  in  order  that  we  may  please  our  patrons,  the  things  that  I  have 
mentioned,  exist  in  a  measure  at  least  through  the  courtesy  of  the 
traffic  department,  and  their  efforts  to  secure  business,  and  also  on 
account  of  the  attitude  taken  by  the  shippers,  but  not  through  the 
operating  department.  We  would  have  condemned  such  practices 
the  first  time  they  were  brought  up  and  we  would  have  been  glad  to 
do  it.     It  is  costing  us  all  kinds  of  grief  and  trouble  to  break  up  trains 


374  CAB  SHOBTAGBL 

and  set  out  these  cars,  and  delay  them,  and  rehandle  them  at  interme- 
diate points.  We  consider  it  a  traffic  department  matter,  and  I  think 
it  is  one  which  you  can,  perhaps  with  more  satisfaction  to  yourself, 
ask  the  traffic  aepartment  about — why  they  do  not  remedy  it,  and 
you  will  doubtless  have  an  opportunity  to  do  that  when  they  come 
on  the  stand.  It  is  something  that  we  nave  nothing  to  do  with  in  the 
operating  department. 

Mr.  Berry.  It  is  not  a  matter  as  between  two  departments,  when 
you  desire  to  make  a  combination,  after  you  have  earned  your  revenue. 
There  is  no  trouble  about  your  making  that  combination,  but  you  can 
not  make  any  combination  before  you  have  earned  your  tariff.  That 
seems  to  be  the  proposition. 

Mr.  Daly.  I  do  not  quite  get  you.  You  have  the  best  of  me  there 
in  that  I  can  not  seem  to  understand  you. 

Mr.  Hostler.  Mr.  Daly,  you  have  testified  here  that  12  miles  an 
hour  is  the  average  movement  for  coal  traffic  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes;  while  in  train. 

Mr.  Hostler.  You  have  also  testified  that  this  proposed  increase 
in  the  per  diem  will  hasten  the  return  of  cars  from  one  road  to  another  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes ;  that  is  my  belief. 

Mr.  Hostler.  Now,  in  designating  that  a  per  diem  charge,  is  it  not  a 
demurrage  charge  also? 

Mr.  Daly.  Wny,  it  is  car  hire;  that  is  the  proper  term  for  it.  It  is 
not  per  diem,  or  demm-rage;  it  is  car  hire.     It  is  the  hiring  of  a  car. 

Mr.  Hostler.  Well,  now,  the  adoption  of  the  car-service  rules  has 
greatly  facilitated  the  unloading  of  freight  at  terminals,  has  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes,  absolutely. 

Mr.  Hostler.  Well,  now,  if  the  demurrage  charge  will  hasten  the 
railroads  in  returning  cars  from  one  railroad  to  another,  and  will 
hasten  the  shippers  in  unloading  the  cars  (as  you  have  testified  it 
will),  why  would  not  the  adoption  of  the  demurrage  rule,  requiring 
the  railroads  to  move  their  cars  a  certain  mmiber  of  miles  within 
every  twenty-four  hours,  and  requiring  them  to  furnish  the  cars 
within  a  certain  time  after  they  are  ordered — ^why  would  not  that 
hasten  the  movement  of  traffic,  if  a  penalty  was  imposed  upon  the 
railroads  for  their  failure  to  furnish  cars  required  within  the  stipulated 
time. 

Mr.  Daly.  There  are  so  many  conditions  affecting  the  movement 
of  traffic  on  long  distances,  on  long  hauls,  and  even  on  short  hauls, 
that  it  would  be  almost  impossible  to  frame  a  demurrage  rule,  as  yoi3 
call  it,  to  compel  a  railroad  to  move  traffic  a  given  number  of  miles 
per  day.  For  instance,  two  weeks  ago  or  three  weeks  ago,  we  hac 
our  entire  tracks,  for  six  days — our  entire  tracks  in  Mississippi  anc 
elsewhere — washed  out.  We  were  washed  out  and  we  had  passengei 
trains  delayed,  traffic  blocked,  and  a  hundred  and  one  other  obstacles 
to  the  prompt  movement  of  traffic. 

Mr.  Hostler.  That  will  be  the  acts  of  God  or  the  enemies  of  tht 
country. 

Mr.  Daly.  How  many  months  do  you  think  it  would  take  me  witl 
a  force  of  a  couple  of  hundred  clerks  to  answer  all  the  complaints 
that  would  reach  me  to  the  effect  that  we  had  not  made  80  miles  s 
day  during  that  period? 

Mr.  Hostler.  Well,  I  know  that  my  coal  is  congested  in  transit 


GAB  8H0BTAQE.  375 

and  held  back  and  then  brouglit  in  here  in  solid  train  loads.  It  is 
held  back  and  they  have  kept  the  coal  that  was  due  here  since  Octo- 
ber. 

Mr,  Dax-t.  On  what  road  1 

Mr.  Hostler.  I  have  got  coal  out  here  within  25  miles 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Have  you  any  on  the  Illinois  Central  ? 

Mr.  HosTLEB.  Not  on  the  Illinois  Central;  but  I  can  not  get  it  in, 
and  then,  all  of  a  sudden,  thev  bring  it  in  all  at  once,  and  3  I  can't 
dispose  of  it  right  away  then  tney  want  to  charge  me  so  much  demur- 
rage. If  that  coal  had  been  brought  forward  the  way  it  should  have 
come,  I  could  have  moved  those  cars  every  one  of  them  as  fast  as 
they  got  in  here.  We  have  not  held  a  car  of  coal  on  track  over 
forty-iour  hours  since  September  Ist,  with  the  exception  of  some 
smithine  coal  that  congested,  and  that  was  due  to  the  fact  that  the 
man  did  not  ship  the  coal  that  we  wanted  in  those  cars. 

Mr.  M.  C.  Anderson  (cabbage  buyer  residing  in  Pittsburg,  Pa.). 
I  have  got  something  I  have  to  say  in  regard  to  car  service. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Let  me  make  this  suggestion  to  you.  You 
have  some  complaint  of  your  own  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  have,  sir. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Well,  then,  I  suggest  that  you  tell  the 
Commission  about  it  on  the  witness  stand,  mstead  of  taking  up  the 
time  to  interrogate  Mr.  Dalv.  We  have  gone  over  the  ground  very 
thoroughly  with  Mr.  Daly,  but  of  course  we  want  to  hear  what  you 
have  to  saj  about  your  complaint,  and,  if  it  will  bring  out  the  pomts 
you  have  m  mind  more  clearly,  I  suggest  that  you  take  the  witness 
stand  and  tell  about  it. 

Mr.  Anderson.  It  is  important  that  I  should  tell  it  right  now. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Has  it  something  to  do  with  the  Illinois 
Central? 

Mr.  Andebson.  Not  materially,  no. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Well,  you  consult  with  Mr.  Marble,  and 
spe  what  he  wishes  to  do.  This  thing  must  be  brought  forward  in  an 
orderly  manner. 

Mr.  Mabble.  We  will  call  Mr.  Anderson  now. 

M.  C.  Andebson,  called  and  sworn  as  a  witness,  was  examined  by 
Mr.  Marble,  and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Mabble,  Your  name  is  M.  C.  Anderson? 

Mr.  Andebson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Mabble.  You  reside  at  Racine,  Wis.  ? 

Mr.  Andebson.  At  the  present  time  I  do,  yes,  sir.  My  home,  it  is 
Pittsbiu-g,  Pa. 

Mr.  IMabble.  And  you  are  engaged  in  the  cabbage  business  at 
Racine? 

Mr.  Andebson.  I  am  at  the  present  time,  ves,  sir. 

Mr,  Marble.  Shipping  cabbage  in  carload  lots?  Shipping  or 
attempting  to  ship? 

Mr.  Andebson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble,  To  this  market,  and  to  what  other  markets? 

Mr.  Ander.son,  To  all  the  markets  in  the  Union, 

Mr,  Mabble.  You  have  had  trouble  in  getting  warehouse  facilities? 


376  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Anderson.  It  was  impossible  to  get  warehouse  facilities  at  the 
time  1  started  up  here,  about  the  last  of  October,  It  was  another 
impossibility  to  get  cars  in  which  to  ship  this  cabbage,  and  recently 
we  were  compelled  to  do  the  next  best  thing,  if  we  intended  to 
operate  here  in  this  district,  and  we  leased  a  piece  of  ground  and  piled 
on  it  1,100  tons  of  cabbage,  which  the  photographs  will  indicate. 
[Witness  refers  to  two  photographs,  showing  piles  of  cabbages  said 
to  be  located  at  IVanksville,  Wis.] 

Mr.  Marble.  You  had  photographs  taken  of  these  piles  of  cabbage, 
did  you  ? 

jPku*.  Anderson.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Wliat  demand  have  you  made  for  cars? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  have  made  every  demand  possible  for  a  man  to 
make. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  long  ago  did  you  demand  any  cars  ? 

Mi.  Anderson.  Sixty  days  ago. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  From  whom  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  From  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  was  that  demand  made  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  ordered  cars  from  the  agent  at  Caledonia  and  at 
Franksville. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  cars  did  you  ask  for? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Fifteen  cars. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  have  not  received  them,  and  you  have 
repeated  that  demand? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Probably  one  hundred  times. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Wliat  market  were  you  trying  to  reach — 
Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Any  market  in  the  country. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  you  must  have  intended  to  ship  them 
somewhere.     I  want  to  know  what  market  you  were  trying  to  reach. 

Mr.  Anderson.  Any  market  in  the  country.  I  ship  my  stuff  and 
sell  it  from  New  Orleans  to  the  Great  Lakes. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  is  that  what  you  said  to  the  agent? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Well,  I  told  him  that  I  would  take  any  kind  of  a 
refrigerator  car,  box  car  or  stock  car,  but  since  the  weather  turned 
cold,  it  is  impossible  to  ship  it  in  anything  but  a  refrigerator. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Did  you  tell  him 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  did. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Wait  a  minute.  Did  vou  tell  him  that  you 
wanted  a  car  to  go  anywhere,  or  did  you  speak  of  some  particular 
market  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  No  particular  market — a  car  that  would  run  to 
any  market. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  tell  him  you  wanted  a  car  for  the  Chicago 
market  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  would — I  said  I  would  take  40  per  cent  of  the 
cars  that  would  not  run  any  farther  than  Chicago,  and  he  said  that 
they  did  not  want  to  furnish  any  cars  to  go  off  their  own  rails.  I 
said  I  would  take  Illinois  Central  cars,  and  I  took  it  up  with  the 
Illinois  Central  people  and  agreed  to  give  them  90  per  cent  of  the 
fremht  on  my  caobage,  or  do  anything  else  necessary  to  get  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  reason  was  given  to  you  for  not  fur- 
nishing the  cars? 


CAB   SHORTAGB.  377 

Mi".  Anderson.  They  have  not  got  them. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Did  they  say  that  they  had  not  got  themi 

Mr.  Anderson.  They  said  it  was  impossible  to  get  them. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Were  you  here  when  the  manager  of  the 
operating  department  of  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul  Rail- 
road was  on  the  stand  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  was  not  here.  I  came  in  from  Cleveland,  Ohio, 
to  attend  this  hearing  voluntarily. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  long  have  you  been  at  Franksville, 
Wis.? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Since  the  1st  of  October — since  the  last  of  October 
or  the  Ist  of  November. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Of  this  year? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  have  been  in  business  there  then 
about  sixty  days  I 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes,  sir;  in  that  district — coming  from  western 
New  York,  where  I  ^Iso  operate. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  raise  cabbage  for  the  market? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  have  not  got  any  farm  for  raising  cabbage,  but 
I  buy  tliis  cabbage  from  growers  who  do  plant  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  are  simply  a  buyer? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes;  a  buyer  and  shipper  of  cabbage. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  much  of  that  product  do  you  handle? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  suppose  by  the  time  the  season  is  over  probably 
we  will  handle  5,000  tons. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  known  as  the  cabbage  district  of 
Wisconsin,  is  it  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  It  is  the  greatest  cabbage  district  of  the  United 
States. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  has  been  so  for  some  time? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes,  sir*  for  some  time. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  There  has  been,  then,  a  regular  business 
of  shipping  cabbages  from  that  point? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes,  sir;  there  is  more  cabbage  raised  in  Racine 
and  Kenosha  counties  than  in  any  other  place  in  the  country. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  So,  then,  it  is  an  old  business  at  that  point? 

Mr.  Anderson.  It  is  a  business  of  probably  ten  years'  standmg. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  weight  of  cabbages  did  you  buy  for 
shipment  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  How  much  cabbage  did  I  buy? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Anderson.  Probably  over  4,000  tons. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  For  delivery  at  any  point  that  could  be 
reached  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  not  with  reference  to  any  special 
market  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  was  willing  to  sacrifice  1,100  tons  of  cabbage  on 
any  market  in  the  country  in  order  to  get  it  off  the  ground  where  I 
have  it  stored  on  the  ground  at  Franksville,  Wis.,  as  the  photogniplis 
will  indicate. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  time  do  cabbages  ordinarily  become 
ready  for  the  market? 


378  OAK  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Anderson.  They  begin  in  September  and  last  until  the  latter 
part  of  November. 

Conmiissioner  Harlan.  When  did  you  first  make  a  demand  for 
cars? 

Mr.  Anderson.  The  second  day  after  I  got  there;  along  about, 
say,  the  28th  or  29th  of  October. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Did  you  make  the  demand  here  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Of  the  accent  at  Franksville  of  the  Chicago,  Mil- 
waukee and  St.  Paul,  and  also  at  Caledonia. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Did  you  tell  liim  the  definite  number  of 
cars  you  wanted  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  told  him  I  would  like  to  have  at  least  ten  or 
fifteen  cars  as  soon  as  possible. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  did  he  say? 

Mr.  Anderson.  The  agent  told  me  that  there  were  16  orders  ahead 
of  mine,  and  that  I  would  have  to  wait  until  there  was  80  cars  of  cab- 
bage loaded  there  before  I  would  be  allowed  to  get  one  car. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  in  filling  orders  that  were  ahead 
of  yours  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes;  in  filling  orders  ahead  of  mine. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  that  there  would  have  to  be  80  cars 
loaded  before  you  got  one  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes;  80  cars  loaded  before  I  got  any. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  were  the  80  cars  loaded? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  should  suy  not. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  were  loaded? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Well,  I  took  possession  of  three  or  four  cars  that 
day. 

Conmiissioner  Harlan.  Took  them  in  what  way,  by  force  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Forcibly;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  were  those  cars  shipped  off  for  you? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes,  sir;  they  were. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  They  were  billed  and  shipped  off? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  To  what  market  did  they  go? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  tliink  two  of  them  went  to  Cleveland,  Ohio,  and 
one  to  Canton,  Ohio. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  how  many  cars  of  cabbage 
were  loaded  there  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Probably  500  cars  at  that  station. 

Conunissioner  Harlan.  Well,  then,  the  80  cars  were  loaded? 

Mr.  Anderson.  He  said  I  should  not  get  one  imtil  there  was  80 
cars  loaded  ahead  of  mine.  I  took  possession  the  day  he  told  me 
this  of  the  cars  and  loi.ded  some.  j 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  80  cars  been  loaded  since  the  1st  of 
November  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes;  we  have  shipped  over  80  cars  ourselves. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Did  you  get  any  more  cars? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Oh,  yes;  I  got  some  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  cars  have  you  had  during  this 
cabbage  season? 

Mr.  Anderson.  At  Franksville? 

Commissioner  I^NE.  Yes;  at  Franksville. 

Mr.  Anderson.  Probably  60  cars. 


GAB   SHOBTAGB.  379 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  is  the  number  you  have  had  ? 

Mr.  Andebson.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  how  many  did  you  require  to  ship  all  of 
your  purchases? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  could  have  taken  70  or  80  cars  more  for  the 
cabbage  I  had  on  hand  and  bought,  and  also,  in  addition,  I  have  this 
lot.  This  lot  that  I  have  is  1,100  tons,  and  I  think  probably  half  of 
it  is  exposed  to  the  weather  and  would  probably  have  been  ruined 
before  this  had  it  not  been  for  the  fact  tnat  1  have  covered  it  with 
5  or  6  feet  of  marsh  hay. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  have  made,  you  say,  repeated  demands 
for  cars? 

Mr.  Andebson.  Yes,  to  every  official  of  the  St.  Paul  road. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  the  same  complaint  made  by  all  the 
others  ? 

Mr.  Andebson.  Yes:  there  seems  to  be  a  scramble  for  cars  very 
much  like  an  hunojy  dog  scrambling  for  a  bone. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Well,  you  have  received  your  portion,  have 
you  not?  You  did  not  get  enough,  but,  as  compared  witn  the  others, 
you  have  got  your  proportion,  haven't  you? 

Mr.  Andebson.  Yes,  I  feel  I  certainly  have. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  And  perhaps  a  little  more  than  that,  when 
you  consider  those  that  you  took  forcible  possession  of? 

Mr.  Andebson.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  So  that  your  complaint  is  simply  that  you 
were  a  merchant  with  a  large  quantity  or  tliis  produce  and  tliat 
while  the  railroad  company  has  ^iven  you  a  fair  proi)ortion 

Mr.  Andebson.  A  fair  proportion,  yes,  I  will  admit  that. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  That  while  it  has  done  that,  yet  it  has 
not  moved  your  traffic? 

Mr.  Andebson.  No,  sir;  not  over  50  per  cent  of  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  much  more  cabbage  was  shipped  this 
year  than  last? 

Mr.  Andebson.  The  crop  in  that  district  was  probably  30  to  40 
per  cent  greater  this  year  than  last  year. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  do  the  dealers  ordinarily  do  with  cab- 
bage when  they  can  not  move  it  on  the  trains? 

Air.  Andebson.  They  have  to  hold  it  until  they  can  move  it,  and 
if  it  comes  on  to  freeze  it  freezes  in  the  field  where  he  grows  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  loss  of  price  is  there  in  the  value  of 
cabbages,  caused  by  their  being  out  in  the  air? 

Mr.  Andebson.  Not  necessarily  anything  up  to  the  present  time, 
because  we  have  protected  it,  and  the  weather  has  been  mild. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  any  loss  in  the  market  price? 

Mr.  Andebson.  No,  sir;  the  market  price  has  advanced. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  But  if  you  have  to  hold  it  dming  the 
winter  you  will  make  a  loss,  is  that  it? 

Mr.  Andebson.  It  is  just  this  way:  if  we  should  get  a  cold  snap, 
15  or  20  degrees  below  zero,  it  would  be  frozen  so  that  it  would  be 
entirely  worthless. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  This  is  your  letter,  is  it  not,  explaining 
the  situation  [referring  to  letter  sent  by  Anderson  to  the  Commis- 
eion  heretofore]. 

Mr.  Andebson.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  it. 


380  OAB  SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  We  will  file  that  with  the  photograph.  Is 
there  anything  further  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  am  also  operating  at  Ives  Grove,  as  it  is  called, 
on  the  Northwestern,  and  also  at  Racme.  Caledonia  is  6  miles  north 
of  Franks ville,  and  I  have  a  man  there  that  I  am  hiring  at  a  salary, 
and  he  has  got  1  car  in  sixteen  days,  and  I  have  got  25  cai-s  of 
cabbage  there  to  be  moved  that  I  had  paid  for  and  that  I  am  obliged 
to  take  regardless  of  the  market  conditions  or  anything  else. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  On  what  road  is  that? 

Mr.  Anderson.  The  Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  there  any  other  road  there? 

Mr.  Anderson.  No,  sir.  At  the  rate  I  have  been  getting  cars  it 
will  be  four  hundred  days  before  I  would  get  25  cars,  and  that  would 
be  along  about  February  1,  1908. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Did  they  make  any  promises  to  give  you 
cars? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Promises  are  like  good  resolutions,  easily  broken. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  understand  that,  but  I  want  the  facts. 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes;  they  gave  us  promises,  and  they  say  they 
are  doing  the  best  they  can. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  But  they  don't  promise  you  cars  at  any 
definite  date  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  At  what  other  points  are  you  doing 
business  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  At  those  four  points. 

Conunissioner  Harlan.  What  is  the  amount  of  your  purchases? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  have  probably  450  tons  in  storage  there  now. 
We  have  shipped  50  cars  out  of  that  station.  I  have  the  old  Schil- 
ling Brewery  leased  at  Racine,  and  have  about  250  tons  there,  and 
there  have  been  moved  out  of  that  2  or  3  cars. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  the  fourth  and  last  one  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  That  is  at  Caledonia,  where  I  say  I  have  about  25 
cars,  and  I  have  had  1  car  in  sixteen  days. 

Commissioner  Lane.  If  there  is  any  representative  of  the  Chicago, 
Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul  here  who  would  like  to  ask  this  gentleman 
any  question,  he  can  do  so. 

(No  response). 

Mr.  Marble.  These  are  the  pictures  brought  here  by  you  showing, 
as  you  have  stated,  the  two  piles  of  cabbages  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes,  sir.  •' 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  seven  piles  altogether? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes,  sir;  1,100  tons. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  others  are  similar  to  these? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  introduce  these  exhibits  with  Mr.  Anderson's 
testimony.     I  have  no  further  questions. 

Mr.  Anderson.  In  regard  to  the  car  service,  this  gentleman  that 
spoke  about  car  service.  That  is  regulated  here  by  one  party  here  in 
tms  town,  as  I  know.  I  have  had  quite  an  experience  in  that  line.  I 
had  a  car  that  came  in  here  some  thirty  days  ago,  on  the  Chicago, 
Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul,  a  box  car,  New  York  Central  and  Hudson 
River  Railroad  car  No.  51200.  It  still  stands  at  Morgan  Street  yards, 
unclaimed  and  not  refused.     It  belongs  to  me,  but  it  has  been  robbed 


OAB  SHOBTAGB.  381 

of  a  ton  or  two  of  cabbage,  and  I  went  to  the  officials  of  the  St.  Paul 
and  told  them  that  if  they  would  throw  off  the  demurrage  I  would 
release  all  claims  and  demands  for  this  cabbage  that  had  been  stolen. 
They  referred  me  to  the  car-service  man — I  uiink  his  office  is  in  the 
builaing  at  State  and  Van  Buren  streets — and  he  referred  me  back  to 
the  St.  Paul  office  to  the  claim  department.  They  never  did  any- 
thing, and  they  wanted  me  to  refuse  the  car,  which  I  would  not  do; 
and  I  would  not  accept  the  car  under  those  conditions,  and  that  car  is 
standing  there  yet..  I  am  willing  to  adjust  the  claim,  release  that,  if 
they  will  throw  off  the  demurrage  on  the  car,  and  not  put  in  anv  claim 
for  shortage.  Now,  then,  when  they  talk  about  this  being  the  uni- 
versal rule  about  this  car  service,  I  will  beg  to  differ  from  that.  I  am 
interested  in  Pittsburg,  Pa.,  where  the  Pennsylvania  Railroad  collects 
$5  a  day  for  a  car  after  a  limited  time.  We  have  forty-eight  hours 
there,  and  the  next  twenty-four  hours  is  $2  a  day,  the  next  twenty- 
four  hours,  and  the  tliird  twenty-four  hours  is  $4  a  day,  and  the  fourth 
twenty-four  hours  is  $4  a  day,  and  after  that  it  is  $5  a  day.  One 
dollar  is  called  demurrage  and  the  balance  is  called  storage. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  have  you  any  suggestion  to  make  in 
connection  with  your  complaint? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Any  suggestion? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Anderson.  In  what  wav? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  your  complaint  has  been  made  in 
the  record,  and  this  is,  of  course — this  hearing — is  in  reference  to  car 
shortage.  Have  you  any  suggestion  to  make  as  to  how  it  could  be 
corrected? 

Mr.  Anderson.  That  is  a  pretty  difficult  matter  to  get  into.  It  is 
pretty  deep,  and  you  have  got  to  think  about  that  matter. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  recognize  the  difficulty  of  the  ques- 
tion, do  you? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  do;  yes,  sir;  thoroughly. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  you  are  not  prepared  at  this  time  to 
make  any  suggestion  ? 

Mr.  Anderson.  Yes,  I  am  as  well  prepared  at  this  time  as  at  anv 
other.  I  can  not  see  why  the  railroaa  company  should  not  be  penal- 
ized for  the  nondelivery  of  a  car  just  as  much  as  the  receiver  should 
for  not  unloading  the  car  at  a  given  time. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  think  that  the  adoption  of  the  prin- 
ciple of  reciprocal  denuirrage  would  be  a  fair  thing? 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  do;  and  make  it  high  enough  so  as  to  make  it 
interesting  for  both  parties.  This  dollar  a  day  is  just  a  mere  baga- 
telle. Make  them  unload,  of  course,  but  make  the  railroads  hustle 
along  with  the  freight.  How  in  the  world,  if  the  St.  Paul  people  can 
not  take  care  of  the  people  on  their  own  line  now,  how  are  they  going 
to  do  when  they  build  2,300  miles  of  extension?  It  takes  eight  or 
nine  days  to  ship  a  car  from  Franksville,  Wis.  (69  miles  north  of 
Chicago),  to  St.  Louis.  How  are  they  going  to  take  care  of  the  bal- 
ance of  the  traffic?  They  can  not  take  care  of  what  they  have  got 
now. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  any  further  suggestions  to  offer? 

Mr.  Anderson.  No,  sir;  nothing. 


382  CAB   SHOBTAGE. 

Julius  Kbuttschnitt,  called  and  sworn  as  a  witness,  was  examined 
by  Mr.  Marble,  and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Maeble.  You  reside  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  Yes,  sir;  I  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  director  of  maintenance  and  operation  of  the 
Union  Pacific  Railway? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  Of  the  Union  Pacific  and  the  Southern  Pacific 
system. 

Mr.  Mabble.  Does  that  include  the  Oregon  Short  Line?  " 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Mabble.  And  anv  other  roads? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  'the  Oregon  Short  Line,  the  Oregon  Railway 
and  Navigation  Company,  and  the  Southern  Pacific  lines. 

Mr.  Mabble.  Are  any  of  those  companies  short  of  cars  ? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  tinder  the  conditions  that  have  existed  this 
year  there  has  been,  for  the  past  two  months,  a  shortage  of  equipment. 

Mr.  Mabble.  What  are  tne  conditions  to  which  3"ou  refer  ? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  The  conditions  are  those  of  abnormal,  unprece- 
dented, and  one  might  say  unexpected  activity  in  all  branches  of 
business,  as  evidenced  bv  the  fact  that  the  value  of  the  farm  products 
this  year  is  estimated  to  be  $6,800,000,000,  as  against  $6,-300,000.000 
last  year,  or  an  increase  of  $500,000,000  in  one  year,  which  is  an  indi- 
cation of  the  increased  tonnage  that  the  railroads  are  called  upon  to 
handle. 

Mr.  \L^.BBLE.  That  would  be  an  increase  of  about  7  or  8  per  c«nt, 
would  it  not  ? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  Yes,  and  in  connection  with  that  would  be  the 
increase  in  traffic  of  all  other  descriptions,  such  as  fuel  and  lumber. 

Mr.  Mabble.  Have  other  classes  of  traffic  increased  proportion- 
ately? Is  that  the  condition  of  things,  or  have  they  increased  to  a 
percentage  more  than  7  or  8  per  cent? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  You  ask  how  much  the  other  classes  of  traffic 
have  increased  ? 

Mr.  Mabble.  Yes,  the  percentage  of  increase;  has  it  been  about  the 
same  as  the  agriculture  ])roducts,  about  7  or  8  per  cent  ? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  Fully. 

Mr.  IkL\BBLE.  How  much  has  your  equipment  increased  ? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  I  can  giye  you  that;  the  traffic  of  all  descrip- 
tions has  increased  about  9  per  cent,  and  the  total  capacity  of  freight 
cars  owned  about  30  per  cent.  j 

Commissioner  Lane.  During  the  year? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  Li  1907  over  1906,  but  I  must  qualify  that  by 
stating  that  that  includes  cars  contracted  for,  but  not  yet  delivered. 

Commissioner  Lane.  TNTiat  does  the  1906  supply  over  the  1905 
supply  show  by  way  of  increase  ? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  About  9  per  cent. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  wnen  you  speak  of  9  per  cent  increase 
in  traffic,  are  you  speaking  of  your  own  roads,  your  own  sj-stem  ? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  Yes,  of  our  own  system  of  lines. 

Mr.  Mabble.  You  mean  by  that  tonnage  carried  or  tonnage  offered  ? 

Mr.  Kbuttschnitt.  This  is  tonnage  actually  moved  that  I  refer  to. 

Mr.  ALiBBLE.  Now,  have  you  failed  to  move  tonnage  offered  to  as 
great  a  degree  as  you  did  last  year,  say? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  383 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  The  only  portions  of  our  line  where  we  have 
had  any  extraordinary  difficulty  in  moving  tonnage  have  been  in 
Oregon. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Where? 

IMr.  Kruttschnitt.  In  Oregon  and  Washington. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  classes  of  tonnage  have  suffered  there? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Principally  lumber  destined  for  the  mill,  and 
grain  destined  for  Puget  Sound  and  Portland.  That  trouble  was  due 
almost  entirely  to  the  very  serious  congestion  of  traffic  in  California, 
brought  about  by  the  San  Francisco  fire.  That  is  because  Oregon  is 
dependent  for  the  car  supply  on  California.  There  is  very  little  freight 
moves  into  Oregon  at  this  time  of  the  year,  but  a  great  deal  goes  into 
San  Francisco  and  Oakland,  and  the  empties  for  the  Oregon  traffic 
orijjinate  at  San  Francisco,  €tnd  must  be  moved  northward  over  the 
California  lines  into  Oregon. 

As  a  result  of  the  San  Francisco  disaster  we  had  an  aggravated 
blockade  lasting  from  approximately  the  day  of  the  fire  up  to  very 
nearly  the  first  of  October — a  blockacie  which  at  its  maximum  tied  up 
some  6,600  cars  or  very  nearly  10  per  cent  of  the  entire  equipment  of 
our  lines.  The  reasons  that  caused  that  blockade  are  patent.  The 
absorbing  power  of  San  Francisco  for  freight,  its  capacitor  for  storage 
and  for  getting  rid  of  the  freight,  had  all  been  wiped  out  in  thirty-six 
hours.  It  was  impossible  to  reproduce  those  facilities,  and  for  several 
months  the  company  had  to  be  extremely  lenient  with  receivers  of 
freight,  and  it  was  only  uf)on  the  approach  of  the  crop  season  that  we 
had  to  take  drastic  measures  with  tne  California  communities,  to  the 
end  that  we  might  get  the  cars  unloaded.  I  am  very  glad  to  be  able 
to  say  that  that  result  was  accomplished  with  comparatively  little 
friction. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  company  also  had  a  fire  in  San  Francisco 
which  added  to  this  difficulty,  did  it  not? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Our  company? 

Mr.  Marble  The  Southern  Pacific  Company.  Am  I  correct  in 
that,  or  did  that  factor  enter  into  the  situation  with  you? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  No,  not  in  that  manner. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  had  no  trouble  at  Galveston? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Yes;  there  has  been  considerable  trouble  at 
Galveston  this  year,  and  there  is  every  year  at  Galveston  and  New 
Orleans. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  not  the  situation  in  Galveston  aggravated 
this  year  seriously  ?  The  reports  that  we  have  from  there  are  to  the 
eflPect  that  there  are  4,000  or  5,000,  and  some  have  estimated  as  high 
as  6,000,  cars  being  detained  by  blockades  in  and  around  Galveston. 

Air.  Kruttschnitt.  I  have  not  the  numbers  now  at  my  command. 
The  actual  details  of  the  operation  of  affairs  in  those  ports  are  in  the 
hands  of  the  local  general  managers.  My  functions  are  supervisory 
largely. 

About  a  month  ago  I  had  a  report  from  Galveston  showing — my  rec- 
ollect ion  is — 1,200  or  1,500  cars  waiting  there  for  ships.  By  heroic 
measures  we  have  gotten  that  number  somewhat  reduced.  Galveston, 
however,  is  alwajrs  in  the  crop  season  troubled  with  a  blockade  of  cars. 
I  am  familiar  with  that  situation,  and  have  been  so  for  some  twenty- 
five  years,  and  1  have  never  known  it  otherwise. 


384  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  relief  can  be  given  there? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  To  answer  that  question  for  Gralveston,  you 
would  have  to  answer  it  more  or  less  for  the  entire  United  States,  and 
for  every  seaport,  and  it  is  difficult  to  see  how  any  relief  can  be  given  if 
the  crops  must  be  harvested  and  practically  shipped  from  the  harvest 
field  to  the  seaport,  because  it  means  immediate  shipment.  The 
methods  of  harvesting  are  being  improved  all  the  time,  and  the  time  in 
which  the  crops  are  moved  is  being  reduced  all  the  time,  and  conse- 
quently the  concentration  of  traffic,  and  the  density  of  traffic  in  the 
crop  season  is  increasing  all  the  lime.  The  only  apparent  relief  would 
be  to  erect  very  extensive  warehouses  near  the  snipping  points  or  at  the 
seaports  in  which  the  crops  could  be  stored. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Are  the  terminal  facilities  sufficient  at  Galves- 
ton for  the  handling  of  trains  as  they  come  in? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Our  company  built,  five  or  six  years  ago,  a  ter- 
minal that  we  then  thought  would  be  ample  for  all  requirements  for 
twenty-five  years  to  come.  I  think  the  f acili  ies  there  are  still  ample. 
The  outside  companies,  the  wharf  companies  in  Galveston,  have  aided 
largely,  and  my  understanding  now  is  that  the  trouble  is  in  the  ocean 
tonnage. 

Commissioner  Lane.  In  the  sufficiency  of  the  ocean  tonnage? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  The  sufficiency  of  the  ocean  tonnage.  The 
ships  don't  get  in  fast  enough  to  take  the  freight  away,  and  perforce  it 
is  held  either  in  cars  or  in  the  warehouses. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  had  a  dispatch  from  there  some  ten  days 
ago,  I  think,  saying  that  there  were  60  ships  waiting  in  the  harbor,  and 
another  dispatch  was  received  by  us  a  day  or  two  ago,  saying  that 
there  were  45,  I  presume  that  they  have  not  got  wharves  at  which 
thej^  can  accommodate  all  these  ships  at  the  same  time,  but  this  Com- 
mission has  been  in  receipt  for  some  time  past  of  complaints  from  Gal- 
veston, and  particularly  from  the  northern  part  of  Texas.  Shippers 
have  offered  to  various  railroads  in  the  northern  part  of  Texas,  in 
Oklahoma,  Indian  Territory,  Missouri,  and  in  surrounding  States,  ship- 
ments for  Texas  points  south  of  Fort  Worth,  and  for  Galveston  and 
other  places  in  the  South,  and  they  have  said  that  they  could  not  get 
cars,  because  as  soon  as  a  car  went  into  Texas  it  never  came  back. 
That  is,  that  this  season  was  an  exception,  and  they  could  not  get  a  car 
back  within  ninety  days.  Now,  those  complaints  have  been  answered 
by  the  Commission  by  asking  them  to  present  all  the  information  that 
was  obtainable  as  to  the  conditions  at  Galveston,  and  we  would  like  to 
have  whatever  knowledge  you  have  as  to  that  situation — as  to  what 
relief,  if  any,  can  be  given—  because  it  is  an  embarrassment  to  the  ter- 
ritor}i^  for  several  hundred  miles  north  of  Galveston.  Is  there  any 
promise  that  can  be  held  out  to  these  people  that  that  situation  or 
congested  condition  can  be  relieved  soon  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  According  to  the  facts  before  you,  there  are 
cars  enough  in  Galveston  to  furnish  lading  for  a  very  large  number 
of  these  ships.  There  are  ships  enough  at  Galveston  to  take  the  lad- 
ing of  all  these  cars,  and  it  seems  hard  to  see  why  they  can  not  get 
together.  That,  however,  is  a  local  condition  that  the  merchants  of 
Galveston,  or  the  interests  in  Galveston  controlling  the  wharves, 
ought  to  face.  My  recollection  is  that  our  wharf,  our  new  docks,  are 
the  only  docks  in  the  port  that  are  not  owned  by  a  wharl  company. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  is  a  local  wharf  company  there? 


CAB   SHOBTAGS.  385 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Not  a  railroad  company! 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  No,  sir;  not  a  railroad  company. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  many  boats  can  you  load  or  unload 
at  your  wharf  in,  say,  thirty  days? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  We  have  dockage  at  our  wharves  for  10  large 
ocean  steamers  at  one  time. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Your  tracks  run  right  onto  your  wharves, 
I  suppose  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Our  tracks  run  right  onto  the  wharves,  and 
we  have  wharves  that  were  designed  to  handle  freight  quickly.  Pri- 
marily, they  were  intended  for  the  accommodation  of  our  new  steam- 
ships that  ply  between  Galveston  and  New  York.  Those  are  steam- 
ers which  will  average  about  6,000  tons  burthen,  and  will  come,  dis- 
charge their  cargo,  reload,  and  sail  in  from  thirty-six  to  forty-eight 
hours. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  they  take  cotton  sometimes? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Yes,  indeed;  cotton  is  the  bulk  of  their  cargo 
northbound. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  And  it  is  transferred  at  the  harbor  in  New 
York? 

Mr.  Ejiuttschnitt.  It  goes  to  New  York,  and  then  to  foreign  bot- 
toms, and  also  to  the  New  Eno;land  mills. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  there  any  other  company  that  has  track- 
age rights  from  your  terminals  over  your  wharves  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  No. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  So  that  you  are  not  in  a  position  to  assist 
in  relieving  the  congestion  there,  except  as  it  may  exist  on  your  own 
hne? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Oh,  we  could  assist.  In  other  words,  when- 
ever the  facilities  on  the  docks  are  more  than  we  require  we  would 
naturally  assist  them,  but  you  can  see  that  the  capacity  for  handling 
freight  t^ere  is  very  large,  because  the  dispatch  given  to  the  domestic 
steamer  is  considerably  greater  than  can  be  given  to  the  foreign  one. 
Still,  we  have  loaded  large  foreign  vessels  with  cotton,  with  full  loads, 
in  from  three  to  four  days,  and  gotten  them  out,  so  that  with  facilities 
to  take  ten  vessels,  even  assuming  that  each  one  was  docked  after  our 
own  domestic  ships,  there  would  be  a  large  capacity  there. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  have  one  or  two  telegrams  here  regarding 
the  Galveston  situation,  which  I  will  read  to  you  so  that  you  can  see 
what  our  information  is.  One  is  from  the  president  of  the  Galveston 
Cotton  Exchange,  and  he  says: 

There  are  4,000  loaded  care  here  waiting  to  be  unloaded  in  which  the  shippers  keep 
their  goods  and  pay  dpmurrage  in  preference  to  receiving.  Facilities  here  far  exceeds 
railways'  ability  to  deliver.  They  are  blockaded  in  their  yards,  and  can  not  deliver 
tonnage  as  fast  as  shipping  facilities  demand,  involving  heavy  loss.  Heretofore  no 
demurrage  on  goods  in  railway  cars  has  been  incurred  in  Galveston. 

Here  is  a  telegram  from  the  secretary  of  the  Galveston  Chamber  of 
Commerce,  in  which  he  says: 

Consignees  have  to  wait  an  average  of  three  weeks  for  notice,  and  after  ordering  the 
railways  to  deliver.  There  are  35  foreign  steamers  here  to-day  complaining  of  slow 
delivery.  ^IVTiarves  are  not  in  the  least  congested,  but  the  congestion  is  in  the  railway 
yards. 

S.  Doc.  33?,  69-2 2& 


386  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Do  you  know  anything  of  that  situation? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  I  do  not,  except  that  I  would  repeat  what  I 
have  said  about  our  own  dock  and  the  wharf  company.  The  tracks 
leading  to  these  docks  belong  to  the  wharf  company,  and  the  switch 
engine  and  switch  crews  belong  to  them,  and  every  road  entering 
Galveston  that  wishes  to  get  a  car  to  these  docks  must  make  delivery 
to  the  wharf  company,  and  its  switch  engine  handles  the  cars  to  the 
dock.  I  should  be  very  glad,  if  the  Commission  will  permit  me  to  do 
so,  to  inquire  into  this  condition  more  fully,  and  from  the  information 
I  have  thus  received  to  supplement  my  present  testimony. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  This  congestion,  as  I  understand  it,  does 
not  affect  your  business. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  No,  it  had  not  the  last  time  I  made  inquiry  or 
received  a  report  from  there. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes,  we  would  be  very  glad  indeed  to  have 
any  further  report  that  you  wish  to  make  or  tne  oenefit  of  any  infor- 
mation you  can  obtain. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  answered  that  there  was  (taking  all  the 
railroads  imder  your  charge  as  a  unit)  a  shortage  of  cars.  Would 
the  extraordinary  conditions  at  San  Francisco,  oy  which  you  were 
forced,  really,  to  a  shortage  of  cars,  and  to  allow  these  cars  to  be 
used  as  warehouses — would  that  account  for  or  explain  the  shortage  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  I  do  not  know  that  I  thoroughly  understand 
your  question,  but  if  you  had  had  these  cars  regularly  we  would  have 
been  moving  the  freights  that  have  accumulated. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  you  would  not  have  been  short  of  cars? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  I  do  not  think  we  would.  Perhaps,  if  I  give 
you  some  special  figures,  it  will  show  the  reasons  by  which  I  reach 
that  conclusion. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  first,  just  let  us  have  your  conclusion.  As  I 
understand  it,  it  is  to  the  effect  that  had  you  had  these  cars,  and 
had  them  moving  the  length  of  time  they  stood  at  San  Francisco, 
you  would  have  had  cars  enough. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  And  if  we  had  some  2.000  or  2,500  cars  deliv- 
ered, which  were  promised  by  the  1st  of  August,  and  delivery  of 
which  has  just  been  completea,  I  do  not  think  our  lines  would  nave 
had  a  particle  of  trouble. 

Mr.  aIarble.  Without  the  2,000  cars  of  which  you  speak,  would  you 
have  had  any  trouble  or  scarcity  had  you  had  the  cars  that  were  used 
as  storehouses? 

Mr.  Kblttschnitt.  I  think  even  without  the  2,000,  had  we  hacl 
the  San  Francisco  congestion  relieved  by  the  1st  of  August  we  would 
have  had  little  or  no  trouble. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  plenty  of  motive  power? 

Mr.  Krlttschnitt.  Our  motive  power  is  ample  for  our  needs. 
Every  locomotive  that  was  ordered  for  this  busy  season  was  delivered 
prior  to  the  1st  of  August,  and  in  service. 

Mr.  Marble.  We  would  be  pleased  now  to  have  the  figures. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Reports  are  made  to  me  every  ten  days  of 
what  is  called  the  car  shortage — that  is,  the  excess  of  the  requisi- 
tions for  cars  over  the  ability  of  the  managers  to  furnish  them.  That 
shortage  reached  its  maximum  early  in  November,  and  on  the  entire 
system  amounted  to  very  few  cars  more  than  were  involved  in  the 
»an  Francisco  congestion.     In  other  words,  about  6,700  cars.     That 


CAB  SHORTAQB.  387 

number  has  been  reduced.  To-day  it  is  only  about  4,000;  so  the 
situation  is  materially  better. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  the  situation  in  Oregon,  in  reference  to 
which  you  have  testified  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Well,  we  have  made,  since  the  cleaning  up  of 
the  San  Francisco  situation — and  feeling  that  those  people  have  nad 
a  very  hard  time  as  to  railroad  transportation — we  have  made  extra- 
ordinary- efforts  to  relieve  them  and  have  been  putting  empties  into 
Oregon  (juite  rapidly,  and  the  situation  there  is  very  much  improved, 
and  I  would  repeat  that  that  part  of  our  system  was  positively  the 
worst  off  of  any. 

Mr  Marble.  But  the  lumber  men  are  still  suffering,  are  they  not, 
for  the  want  of  cars  up  there  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  To  a  certain  extent,  yes;  but  the  sitoiation 
is  bein^:  relieved  daily. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  make  any  statement  or  a  prediction  as  to  how 
soon  you  will  be  able  to  handle  that  business  for  the  lumbermen? 

Mr.'  Kruttschnitt.  From  our  reports,  I  should  say  in  three  or 
four  weeks. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  you  think  you  will  be  practically  even? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Easily  so,  because  the  crop  movement  is 
letting  up  now,  and  it  will  release  some  cars  to  go  into  the  lumber 
business. 

Commissioner  Lane.  There  has  been  an  extra  burden  imposed  on 
you  in  the  lumber  market  in  the  Northwest  country,  because  of  the 
practical  cessation  of  the  operations  of  the  Great  Northern  and 
Northern  Pacific? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  More  than  that;  there  has  been  a  protracted 
strike  of  the  employees  of  the  coastwise  steamers,  and  that  has 
brout^t  to  us  a  great  deal  of  lumber  from  the  Puget  Sound  points 
and  Portland  into  San  Francisco,  into  Los  Angeles,  and  into  San 
Pedro.  That  is,  those  steamers  have  done  that  heretofore,  and  all 
of  that  stuff  was  offered  to  the  railroads  and  we  should  have  beeen 
more  than  glad  to  take  it  and  handle  it  but  for  the  want  of  equipment. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  the  average  daily  movement  of  your 
freight  cars? 

^lr.  Kruttschnitt.  Yes;  they  will  average  between  25  miles  and 
30  miles  a  day.  In  other  words,  we  get  from  9,000  to  10,000  miles 
per  annum  per  car. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  remedy  to  suggest,  or  any  plan  to 
suggest,  by  which  that  movement  of  freight  cars  could  be  stimulated 
and  better  service  afforded,  or  more  miles  be  traveled?  A  mile  an 
hour  seems  rather  small.     Where  is  the  time  lost? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Of  course,  putting  that  in  another  way,  that 
means  that  the  cars  are  in  motion  only  about  10  per  cent  of  the  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  one  day  in  ten? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  About  one  day  in  ten.  Most  of  the  time  is 
lost  at  destination.  Comparatively  little  of  it  is  lost  at  the  originat- 
ing point  of  the  freight.  At  the  present  time  I  might  say  that  con- 
siderable is  lost  in  getting  through  congested  terminals,  but  that  is 
not  a  normal  condition — that  is  entirely  abnormal. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  regard  that  as  a  condition  to  be  con- 
tended with  ordinarily,  do  you  ? 

Mr.  KKUTTSCHNm.  By  no  means. 


388  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  remedy  have  you  in  mind  that  will  better  that 
situation,  and  cause  the  present  number  of  freight  cars  to  amount  to 
an  increased  supply,  or  an  added  supply,  by  their  increased 
efiicien^  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  The  conditions  that  bring  this  situation  about 
are  principally  the  concentration  of  shipments  at  various  points. 
The  {)ublic  expects  the  railroads  to  do  too  much  business  in  a  hm- 
ited  time.  I  snould  say  that  the  first  help  would  be  afforded  by  dis- 
tributing these  shipments  somewhat,  by  providing  warehouses,  and 
storage  facilities  on  the  farm,  at  the  sugar  factory,  at  the  canning 
factory,  and  at  the  sawmill.  The  modern  sawmill  will  turn  out  any- 
where from  200,000  to  250,000  feet  of  lumber  a  day,  and  it  expects 
a  daily  supply  of  cars  so  that  it  can  handle  its  output  immediately. 
It  expects  that  the  road  serving  it  will  accomplish  that.  The  lum- 
ber as  it  leaves  the  saw  can  thus  go  direct  to  the  car  and  is  shipped 
at  once.  The  modern  sugar  factory  or  cane  sugar  factory  expects 
at  the  close  of  every  day  to  ship  the  product  of  that  day,  and  so  it 
goes  throughout  all  of  the  industries  that  are  served  on  our  lines, 
and  it  becomes  more  and  more  difficult  to  provide  equipment  as  it 
is  desired  under  the  modern  system  of  manufacture.  If  the 
material  were  warehoused,  and  the  shipments  spread  over  a  longer 
time,  it  would  be  a  very  great  relief.  If,  on  arrival  at  destination, 
the  freight  could  be  immediately  put  into  warehouses  or  taken  away, 
it  would  also  afford  great  reUef . 

Mr.  Marble.  I  can  readily  understand  how  the  failure  to  ware- 
house farm  products,  which  are  produced  in  great  quantities,  and  but 
once  a  year,  would  have  the  effect  which  you  suggest;  but,  take  a 
mill,  which  produces  nearly  around  the  year,  why  do  not  its  frequent 
shipments  tend  to  promote  the  movement  of  cars  rather  than  to  make 
that  movement  stagnant  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  It  is  those  shipments,  when  they  are  added 
to  the  movement  of  the  crops,  which  embarrass  the  situation.  Those 
shipments  are  most  active  at  the  time  that  the  crops  ai"e  moving. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is,  then,  the  congestion  at  the  terminals  that  makes 
the  trouble  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  No;  it  is  the  inability  then  to  furnish  cars, 
because  everybody  wants  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  we  are  talking  about  now  is  the  movement  of 
cars;  that  is,  this  movement  of  which  you  speak,  amounting  to  about 
20  miles  per  day. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  You  asked  how  it  could  be  improved,  and  I 
say,  in  two  ways;  by  reducing  the  delay  at  the  terminal  point,  an^ 
equalizing  the  inflow  or  influx  of  traffic  at  the  originating  point. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  the  cars  would  not  have  to  wait  at  all  to 
be  loaded  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  So  there  would  be  a  more  uniform  movement. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  have  much  trouble  now  with  cars  waiting 
to  be  loaded  ?     Having  to  hold  cars  for  loads  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Not  much.  The  principal  delay  is  getting 
rid  of  the  freight  after  it  reaches  its  destination. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then,  so  far  as  the  loading  is  concerned,  the  equal- 
izing of  the  movement  would  not  have  very  much  effect  upon  car 
movement,  because  the  difficulty  is  not  that  the  car  is  not  loaded 
promptly;  the  difficulty  is  in  its  being  moved  ? 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  389 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  No,  but  everybody  loading  at  the  same  time 
produces  congestion  at  the  terminal  points. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  trouble  is  felt  at  the  terminals? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  You  can  hardly  get  traction  enough,  switch 
engines  enough,  to  move  this  stuff  promptly  when  all  of  the  products 
of  the  country  are  moving  at  one  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  have  trouble  occasioned  by  the  abuse  of  your 
rules  or  by  the  use  of  your  rules  at  the  terminals,  by  which  your  cars 
are  held  as  warehouses  ? 

Mr.  IvRLTTSCHNHT.  Yes;  every  road  has  more  or  less  of  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  anvthmg  in  mind  by  which  to  correct  that, 
so  that  the  cars,  instead  of  becoming  warehouses  shall  more  nearly 
and  more  completely  be  instruments  of  commerce? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Well,  the  American  Railway  Association  has 
recently  organized  a  committee  and  they  have  honored  me  with  an 
appointment  on  that  committee.  The  business  of  that  committee 
(and  it  is  called  the  car  efficiency  committee)  is  to  study  for  the  entire 
country  the  means  of  increasing  the  efficiency  of  the  equipment.  The 
committee  has  only  recently  been  appointed,  and  is  not  yet  ready  to 
report  at  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  yet  ready  to  report  anything  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  No,  not  yet.  It  is  a  very  complicated  situa- 
tion. It  involves  the  uses  of  cars  as  warehouses,  a  use  that  has  grown 
up  all  over  the  country ;  and  it  involves  other  privileges  extended  by 
the  carriers  to  shippers,  that  are  so  intimately  connected  with  the 
industrial  development  of  the  country  that  to  adopt  any  drastic 
measures  would  oe  equivalent  to  causing  a  great  deal  of  damage. 
Every  road  has  hesitated  to  do  that.  An  instance  in  point  is  that 
we  have  tried  for  years  to  get  the  local  coal  dealers  on  our  lines  to  use 
hopper-bottom  cars,  so  that  then  the  cars  could  be  discharged  at 
once  on  being  put  onto  their  sidetracks.  We  have  even  gone  to 
the  extent  of  offering  to  have  our  switchmen  unload  them,  but  that 
requires  on  their  part  the  erection  of  a  small  trestle  and  they  have 
been  unwilling  to  do  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Would  that  be  an  expensive  operation? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Comparatively  inexpensive. 

Mr.  M.\rble.  Have  you  a  remedy  within  your  power  to  apply  by 
reducing  the  time  which  these  hopper-bottom  cars  shall  be  allowed  to 
be  held  by  the  coal  dealers  and  perhaps  increasing  the  penalty  to  be 
assessed  if  they  do  not  promptly  release  them  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  That  is  a  measure  which  we  are  considering 
now.  Again,  you  take  the  smelters  in  the  Utah  Valley.  We  take 
ore  in  there  and  they  require  96  hours  of  free  time  to  unload  those 
cars.  I  think  that  is  entirely  too  much.  However,  that  is  a  condi- 
tion under  wliich  the  smelting  industry  has  grown  up  and  while  we 
are  shortening  and  reducing  the  time  little  by  little  this  year  we  have 
not  reduced  it  enough  yet,  and  we  appreciate  the  fact  that  the  remedy 
must  be  applied  gradually  or  else  we  do  the  injury  to  these  industries. 

Mr.  Marble.  Of  course,  when  so  many  shippers  are  pleading  for 
cars,  if  some  shippers  are  allowed  to  use  cars  as  warehouses  to  any 
extent  it  amounts  to  a  discrimination  against  those  who  do  not  get 
cars? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Perhaps  that  is  a  little  farfetched,  but  it  is  to 
a  certain  extent  true. 


390  CAR  SHOBTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  not  thought  farfetched,  though,  by  the  man  who 
does  not  get  the  car. 

Mr.  Kruttschxitt.  Now,  another  means  by  which  we  have 
earnestly  sought  to  avoid  this  trouble,  and  a  means  that  we  have 
sought  to  bring  about  for  the  past  two  or  three  years,  has  been  to 
get  the  coal  dealers  to  store  their  coal.  The  average  local  coal 
dealer  will  not  order  his  coal  in  the  summer  time  when  the  equij>- 
ment  is  plenty  and  the  roads  are  comparatively  free  of  congestion 
because  the  crops  are  not  moving.  It  would  then  be  simply  a 
matter  of  moving  the  coal  and  stormg  it.  We  have  been  singularly 
unsuccessful  in  prevailing  upon  the  coal  dealers  to  do  that.  This 
last  summer  and  spring,  after  endeavoring  to  get  them  to  store  the 
coal  and  meeting  with  no  success  in  that  effort,  we  tried  the  experi- 
ment of  making  an  emergency  rate,  which  was  really  a  sort  of  a 
bonus,  in  order  to  prevail  upon  them  to  store,  but,  unfortunately, 
about  the  time  they  got  themselves  moving  in  the  way  of  storing 
the  coal  there  was  a  shortage  of  miners  and  great  difficulty  in  getting 
any  coal,  so  that  instead  of  getting  several  hundred  thousands  of 
tons  stored  on  our  lines  we  only  succeeded  in  getting  about  40,000 
of  50,000  tons  stored  by  the  dealers.  It  was  their  fault  up  to  the 
time  we  offered  the  bonus  for  storing,  but  when  the  supply  of  miners 
ran  short  of  course  they  were  not  to  blame. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  mean  they  might  have  stored  coal  before  that 
time? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  They  might  have  stored  coal,  yes,  and  get  in 
all  they  wanted. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  your  own  company  use,  do  you  store  your  coal? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  We  have  from  thirty-five  to  forty  days'  store, 
but  on  account  of  the  shortage  the  coal  we  stored  was  rapidly  eaten 
into  and  on  account  of  the  fact  that  the  company  furnished  it  to 
local  dealers  to  relieve  their  situation.  We  have  had  just  the  same 
trouble  about  coal  on  our  lines,  perhaps  not  as  bad  as  it  has  been  in 
other  parts  of  the  countrv,  but  bad,  nevertheless,  and  we  have  re- 
lieved it  in  that  way.  We  have  gone  into  other  markets  and  tried 
to  buy  coal  and  furnish  the  equipment  for  it,  offering  to  furnish  the 
equipment,  in  order  to  provide  coal  for  the  railroad  company,  so  as 
to  permit  the  local  mines  to  sell  theirs  for  domestic  use,  but  we  have 
met  with  very  little  success,  because  the  mines  can  not  produce  the 
coal. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  the  region  of  the  California  and  Texas  oil  fields, 
where  you  use  oil,  you  put  it  in  storage  tanks — ^you  have  the  oil 
stored,  do  you  not?  J 

Mr.  KRLTTSCHNrrr.  We  did,  and  we  planned  to  put  the  lines  in 
Oregon  of  both  the  Southern  Pacific  and  the  Oregon  Railway  and 
Navigation  Company  on  oil  fuel,  and  we  made  our  contract.  The 
oil  was  to  be  delivered,  but  we  failed  to  get  a  single  barrel,  because 
the  steamer  was  not  completed  in  time.  She  was  to  have  been 
delivered  in  August  to  the  other  company,  but  I  am  told  now  that 
the  first  trip  will  be  made  in  January. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  criticism  of  the  dealers  for  not  storing  their 
fuel  was  made  at  MinneapoUs  by  a  large  wholesale  dealer,  who  said 
he  had  asked  the  dealers  to  store  coal,  out  he  also  said  that  he  had 
asked  the  railroads  to  store  and  they  had  neglected  to  do  so. 


CAB  SHORTAGE.  391 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Well,  it  has  been  my  policy  for  years — I 
should  say  for  ten  or  twelve  years  at  least — to  store  every  pound  of 
coal  in  the  spring  and  summer  that  I  could  lay  hands  on. 

We  also  endeavor  to  help  out  the  fuel  situation,  we  did  try  that, 
by  letting  large  contracts  for  fuel  oil  to  the  Ix>s  Angeles  wells  to 
avoid  the  long  hauls  over  the  lines  of  the  Southern  Pacific  Company, 
and  avoid  the  shortage  of  cars  in  the  oil  fields,  about  which  there 
has  been  some  complaint.  But,  unfortunately,  these  contracts 
could  not  be  filled,  because  the  oil  wells  gave  out,  and  we  have  had 
to  purchase  and  haul  oil  much  longer  distances  than  from  there, 
thereby  tying  up  the  cars  for  a  longer  period  than  we  had  intended 
to.  Now,  to  illustrate  the  situation,  so  far  as  the  mines  are  con- 
cerned, when  the  San  Francisco  situation  was  relieved,  releasing  a 
large  number  of  coal  cars,  we  shipped  those  East.  We  shipped  the 
empty  coal  equipment,  rushed  it  to  the  mines,  in  preference  to  any 
freight  except  Uve  stock,  and  those  trains  had  preferences  over  all 
trains  except  passenger  trains  and  live-stock  trains.  The  result  of 
that  was  that  we  got  the  empties  to  the  mines  very  quickly,  and  for 
the  last  month  or  six  weeks  we  have  had  a  surplus  of  empty  coal 
cars  at  the  mines,  and  have  developed  their  full  capacity,  so  far  as 
we  could,  and  for  six  weeks  there  has  not  been  a  particle  of  trouble 
about  coal  equipment. 

Mr.  Marble.  On  any  of  those  lines? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  On  any  of  them.  There  is  plenty  of  coal 
cars  to  take  care  of  any  activity  that  the  mines  may  be  capable  of. 
They  have  not  plenty  of  miners,  that  is  the  trouble.  They  could 
produce  more  coal,  and  could  ship  more  coal,  if  they  could  get  more 
miners. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  to  take  up  another  matter.  On  shipments 
of  grain  into  Omaha,  for,  say,  300  miles,  what  do  you  consider  the 
fair  movement  for  a  car  to  make  from  the  time  it  is  billed  until  it 
reaches  the  Missouri  River,  including  its  passage  through  two 
division  points?  How  long  do  you  think  tnat  car  ought  to  be 
en  route,  fairly? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Oh,  not  more  than  three  or  four  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  you  do  actually  accom- 
plish that  sort  of  service? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  know? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  No. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  for  such  a  distance  it  would  be  your  judgment, 
as  a  railroad  man,  that  three  or  four  days  is  a  fau*  time,  passing 
through  two  division  points? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Well,  I  was  more  familiar  with  those  matters 
when  I  was  in  actual  operating  charge.  For  instance,  the  Southern 
Pacific  would  put  their  overland  freights  in  San  Francisco,  very 
regularly,  in  seven  days  from  New  Orleans,  which  was  2,500  miles. 
The  trains  would  move  through  the  division  terminals,  and  our  aver- 
age delay  was  about  forty  minutes  at  each  division  point. 

Mr.  ^Iarble.  I  am  asking  in  reference  to  dead  freight,  such  as 
wheat  and  coal. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Well,  that  was  freight  between  New  York 
and  San  Francisco,  the  dead  freight  would  move — well,  we  would 


392  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

load  a  train  heavier  with  the  dead  freight,  and  it  would  make  prob- 
ably half  to  two-thirds  of  the  miles  per  day  that  this  time  freight 
would. 

Mr.  Marble.  Perhaps  150  miles,  instead  of  300,  or  something 
over  300? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Yes;  I  have  prepared  here  a  statement  from 
which  I  read  those  figures,  in  reference  to  the  increase  of  tonnage  and 
equipment,  and  I  have  also  had  them  charted.  I  have  also  put  in 
increase  in  second  tracks,  sidings,  yards,  and  so  forth,  on  those 
systems,  and  I  have  a  chart  of  that.  I  shall  ask  leave  to  file  these 
with  the  Commission. 

(The  same  is  hereto  annexed  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1  to  Mr. 
Kruttschnitt' s  testimony. ") 

Commissioner  Lane.   Yes;  file  them  if  you  please. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Does  that  show  what  appropriations  have 
been  made,  or  do  you  know  what  appropriations  have  been  made  for 
this  coming  year  for  inrprovements? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Both  the  equipment  is  charted  and  the  sidings 
are  charted,  and  it  also  includes  sidings  and  equipment  contracted 
for  to  be  finished  this  year.  Just  briefly,  I  can  incorporate  that  in  my 
testimony. 

In  five  years,  from  1902  to  1906,  there  were  bought  40,200  freight 
car3,  and  1,194  locomotives,  costing  approximately  $60,000,000. 
We  have  made  very  large  expenditures  all  over  the  line,  with  the 
object  in  view  of  reducing  and  eliminating  the  curves  and  increasing 
the  trafiic  capacity  of  our  lines.  We  have  added  from  the  year  1900 
to  date,  additional  second  tracks  and  sidings  amounting  to  2,244 
miles,  equivalent  to  a  single  track  reaching  from  Chicago  to  Los 
Angeles,  Cal. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  you  anjrthing  to  say  regarding  the 
proposition  of  reciprocal  demurrage  ?  That  question  is  being  agi- 
tated by  very  many  commercial  bodies  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Reciprocal  demurrage  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  I  should  say,  before  attempting  a  solution 
of  that  problem,  that  we  ought  to  have  it  very  clearly  stated.  Recip- 
rocal demurrage  would  be  a  penalty  imposed  upon  a  railroad  com- 
pany for  its  failure  to  deliver  a  car  within  a  specified  time.  I  should 
judge  that  is  what  it  means  from  the  testimony  that  has  preceded 
mine. 

Commissioner  Lane.  This  is  the  proposition,  as  I  understand  it. 
There  has  not  been  any  very  clear  definition  in  detail.  Ordinarily 
reciprocal  demurrage  means  a  penalty  paid  by  a  railroad  to  a  shipper 
when  the  shipper  has  made  a  demand  for  a  car  for  a  certain  number 
of  days  and  the  railroad  has  not  delivered  it  to  him. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Well,  what  is  the  duty  of  the  road  to  furnish 
the  car  to  the  shipper?  By  that  I  mean  for  what  purpose  must  it 
furnish  the  car  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  For  the  purpose  of  transportation. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  To  what  points. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  the  shipper,  it  is  understood  and  implied, 
is  responsible,  and  in  fact  is  able  to  pay  and  does  pay,  or  offer  to  pay, 
whatever  amoimt  may  be  necessary  for  transportation. 


CAB   SHORTAOB.  393 

Mr.  Kjiuttschnitt.  Well,  assume  the  cars  of  a  given  railroad 
with  termini  at  A  and  B.  Is  it  contemplated  that  it  must  furnish 
cars  for  shipment  of  freight  originating  at  any  point  on  its  line  des- 
tined to  any  other  point  in  the  United  States,  Mexico,  or  Canada  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  are  very  much  more  familiar  with  the 
question  of  such  demurrage  than  I  am. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  If  you  will  permit  me  to  go  on,  I  will,  perhaps, 
best  answer  the  question  by  stating  what  seems  to  me  to  be  the  con- 
ditions of  the  problem  first  and  then  considering  its  solution.  It  is 
a  comparatively  easy  matter  for  any  line — for  our  line,  if  you  please — 
to  provide  enough  equipment  and  motive  power  to  move  promptly 
any  freight  that  is  offered  on  any  point  on  tne  line  and  take  it  to  any 
one  of  our  terminal  or  junction  points  with  other  roads. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  that  generally  so  as  to  all  railroads? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  I  think  so.  If  it  is  not  so,  if  they  have  not  the 
equipment  now,  a  very  little  amount  of  figuring  and  ordering  of  equip- 
ment would  put  them  in  a  condition  to  do  that;  but  if  a  railroad  is 
expected  to  furnish  to  any  shipper  equipment  in  unlimited  quantity, 
under  penalty  if  it  does  not,  such  equipment  to  go  off  of  its  lines  to 
any  pomts  in  the  United  States,  Canada,  or  Mexico,  I  do  not  know  of 
any  commission  or  body  of  railroad  men  that  could  possibly  figure  on 
the  amount  of  equipment  that  they  will  have  to  order  to  meet  those 
conditions.  Therefore,  if  reciprocal  demurrage  is  to  be  inaugurated 
and  the  railroad  penahzed  for  not  meeting  demands  for  equipment  at 
all  times  for  shipment  to  all  points,  it  must  necessarily  protect  itself 
by  reducing  veir  much  the  scope  of  its  traffic.  It  must  cut  it  oflT  at 
its  terminals.  Naturally,  if  the  "X,  Y  &  Z  road  "  is  to  be  penalized 
if  it  does  not  furnish  cars  to  go  off  its  line,  if  its  officers  have  any  sense 
at  all,  they  will  say,  * '  We  will  go  out  of  this  traffic,  then,  and  take  care 
of  the  traffic  that  originates  and  ends  on  our  own  lines.  Beyond  that 
we  can  not  go.  This  must  be  our  position,  because  how  are  we  to 
figure  and  how  do  we  know  how  much  of  this  through  business  is 
coming  up  next  year?" 

Commissioner  Lane.  So  that  you  want  some  way  by  which  you 
would  be  assured  that  the  cars,  once  they  get  off  of  your  line,  would 
be  prornptly  returned  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Yes;  and  there  are  no  ways  to  insure  that. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Can't  that  be  covered  by  an  agreement 
between  the  railroads? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  I  am  afraid  not.  That  is  one  of  the  difficult 
problems  that  the  railroads  of  this  country  have  set  before  our  com- 
mittee. One  of  their  instructions  to  that  committee  is  to  devise 
ways  and  means,  or  to  suggest  plans  for  a  car-clearing  house,  for,  as 
some  call  it,  "a  car  pool,"  although  it  is  not  properly  a  pool. 

While  we  have  had  considerable  experience  in  the  common  use  of 
cars  over  a  very  large  mileage  and  where  the  means  of  distribution 
have  been  entirely  within  our  own  hands,  yet  even  that  problem 
seems  to  me  to  be  one,  when  extended  to  all  the  roads  of  the  country, 
of  extreme  intricacy  and  difficulty.  I  do  not  know  what  solution 
we  will  reach.  I  have  given  the  matter  a  great  deal  of  thought,  and 
I  have  talked  with  a  great  many  railroad-operating  officers,  m  order 
to  gain  assistance  from  their  suggestions,  but  up  to  the  present  time 
I  must  say  there  has  not  been  very  much  assistance  offered.     Our 


394  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

system  of  lines  and  the  New  York  Central  system,  the  equipment  of 
those  systems,  js  handled  in  what  we  call  a  clearing  house.  In  other 
words,  it  is  sought  to  get  the  greatest  efficiency  out  of  the  equipment. 
Naturally,  there  must  be  no  unnecessary  empty  movement  or  a  car. 
In  other  words,  wherever  a  car  is  it  can  be  used,  and  used  to  its 
utmost  capacity.  If  it  has  to  be  repaired,  it  can  be  repaired  wher- 
ever it  is,  and  there  is  no  necessity  of  its  being  hauled  to  a  distant 
shop.  It  can  be  put  into  the  nearest  shop  and  repaired,  and  the  bill 
for  the  repairs  sent  to  the  owners.  In  other  words,  the  cars  are  made 
to  come  forward,  and  their  efficiency  is  very  much  increased  in  that  way. 

Now,  where  the  ownership  of  the  cars  is  all  in  one  interest,  and 
where  the  power  to  move  these  cars  is  supreme,  the  problem  is  com- 
paratively simple;  but  when  you  enlarge  the  problem  to  take  in  the 
entire  United  States,  it  becomes  one  of  very  great  difficulty. 

It  is  a  simple  matter,  if  the  Pacific  coast  wants  to  ship  actively, 
and  the  Atlantic  coast  is  idle,  or  vice  versa.  Then  it  is  a  very  easy 
matter  for  the  manager  of  this  car  clearing  house  to  order  empties 
from  the  Atlantic  coast  to  the  Pacific  coast,  or  vice  versa.  But  if 
the  Pacific  and  the  Atlantic  both  want  to  ship  at  the  same  time,  then 
the  case  becomes  very  difficult. 

Commissioner  Lane.  So  as  to  insure  the  return  of  your  own  cars, 
would  it  be  possible  now  for  you  to  fix  a  Hmit  within  which  the  cars 
should  be  returned,  a  certain  time  hmit?  Say  that  you  take  a  car 
from  San  Francisco  to  New  Orleans  and  then  have  to  let  it  go  up  to 
Memphis.  You  fix  a  certain  number  of  days  which  you,  by  agree- 
ment with  the  Illinois  Central,  have  arrived  at.  Allow  for  the  pas- 
sage of  a  car  of  dead  freight  from  New  Orleans  to  Memphis,  and  then 
for  any  time  over  that  amount,  penaUze  them  by  agreement  between 
yourselves  to  such  an  extent  as  will  insure  the  return  of  that  car  or 
its  equivalent  to  you  at  New  Orleans. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  It  has  seemed  to  us  that  a  car  clearing  house, 
if  we  could  devise  one,  would  be  better  than  that  by  enabling  the 
Illinois  Central,  instead  of  returning  that  actual  car,  to  substitute 
one  for  it  where  such  a  substituted  car  would  be  nearer  the  junction 
point,  and  more  quickly  delivered. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  would  be  insured  by  that  scheme,  you 
could  make  the  penalty  the  amount  of  the  demurrage  that  you  would 
be  charged — if  you  were  charged  $5  a  day  as  reciprocal  demurrage 
for  failure  to  furnish  a  car,  you  could  make  that  amount  payable 
by  the  IlUnois  Central  if  they  did  not  return  to  you  the  car. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Well,  we  do  that  now;  not  for  $5  a  day,  but 
for  a  fixed  amount  per  diem.  It  is  50  cents  now,  or  rather  a  number 
of  roads  have  made  an  agreement,  amongst  them  the  Illinois  Central 
and  our  road — to  which  agreement  we  are  both  parties — that  we  are 
to  pay  each  other  50  cents,  instead  of  25  cents.  That  is  a  tentative 
measure  adopted  on  the  1st  of  December.  We  do  not  know  yet  how 
it  will  work.  A  great  many  people  thought  it  would  be  effective, 
and  we  concluded  to  try  it. 

Commissioner  Lane.  My  suggestion  is  not  exactly  that,  but  it  is 
one  that  has  just  occurred  to  me — whether  it  is  not  possible  for  you  to 
allow  a  certati  number  of  days  during  which  the  ordinary  per  diem 
shall  be  charged,  and  when  that  time  comes  to  an  end,  then  another 
amount,  a  very  large  amount,  equivalent  to  the  amount  of  demur- 


OAB  SHOBTAGE.  395 

rage  that  vou  are  to  pay  to  the  shipper,  would  be  imposed  upon  the 
road  which  keeps  your  car  away  from  you. 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  That  plan  is  exactly  the  American  Railway 
Association's  plan  that  is  in  use  now,  except  as  to  the  amount.  In 
other  words,  the  per  diem,  the  rate  of  the  association,  is  25  cents, 
which,  at  the  end  of  twenty  days  or  twenty-five  days,  increases  to 
$1.  That  has  not  been  particularly  efficacious  in  bringing  the  cars 
back;  and  in  this  new  agreement,  making  the  per  diem  50  cents,  we 
concluded  to  try  how  the  abolition  of  the  penalty  would  work.  In 
other  words,  it  sliOuld  be  uniformly  50  cents  up  to  the  end  of  a  certain 
number  of  days,  and  then  raising  it  by  multiplying  it  by  four. 

CoDMnissioner  Lane.  Heretofore  has  it  been  that  the  railroad  that 
kept  a  car  away  longer  than  twenty-five  days  had  to  pay  $1  a  day 
for  it? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  railroad  did? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Has  that  been  in  force? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  Yes.  The  objection  to  it  was  this:  That  the 
road  finding  that  it  was  about  to  incur  this  increased  penalty  got 
very  busy  and  delivered  these  cars  to  another  line.  In  other  words, 
they  would  break  the  penalty  in  that  way.  They  would  make  a 
delivery  before  the  time  of  the  extra  compensation,  they  would 
make  their  delivery  before  that  began,  ana  then  the  other  road 
would  be  possessed  of  the  car  and  would  wait  until  it  devolved  upon 
it  to  get  tne  car  back  to  the  owner  within  the  twenty-five  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  found  also  that  there  entered  into  the  question 
the  element  of  fictitious  delivery,  did  you  not? 

Mr.  Kjiuttschnitt.  It  is  claimed  that  something  of  that  sort  has 
existed. 

Mr.  Marble.  DeUveries  made  simply  for  the  purpose  of  breaking 
the  penalty  ? 

Mr.  Kruttschnitt.  It  is  so  stated  by  the  car  service  committee  to 
the  association  that  that  practice  was  indulged  in. 

Whereupon  the  further  hearing  of  said  matter  was  adjourned  until 
7.30  p.  m.  the  same  day,  December  20,  1906. 

night  session. 

December  20,   1906 — 7:30  p.  m. 
Commissioner  Lane.  The  Commission  is  in  receipt  of  a  telegram 
from  Mr.  Howard  EUiott,  president  of  the  Northern  Pacific  road,  in 
which  he  says : 

No  shortage  of  provisions  so  far  as  we  know  at  any  point  on  our  line  in  North  Dakota. 
The  company  is  doing  all  it  can,  as  stated  at  Minnea|x>liB,  to  furnish  fuel  at  all  points. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Sanford,  of  the  Car  Service  Association,  was  asked 
to  bring  in  some  figures  showing  the  amoimt  of  delay  in  Chicago. 
Shall  I  read  it  or  simply  put  it  in? 

Commissioner  Lane.  File  it  with  the  testimony. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  do  so.  I  will  also  ask  that  this  statement 
[referring  to  a  list  of  railroads  joining  in  the  per  diem  rule]  be  put  in 
as  a  part  of  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Midgley.  It  contains  that  list  of 
railroads. 


396  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

(The  same  are  hereto  annexed  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.l — San- 
ford;"  and  "Exhibit  No.  1— Midgley.") 

There  is  also  here  a  letter  from  the  Kensal  Farmers'  Elevator,  of 
Kensal,  N,  Dak.,  in  which  it  is  said: 

We  have  310.000  bushels  of  grain  stored  here  at  the  present  time,  of  which  127,000 
bushels  is  thrown  in  seven  temporary  outside  bins,  with  no  roof  or  covering  of  any 
kind. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  road  is  that  on  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  on  the  Soo.  Here  is  a  cartoon  prepared  by 
the  manager  of  the  Ilhnois  and  Iowa  Car  Service  Association,  which 
he  expects  to  distribute  January  1,  1907,  making  an  argument  for  a 
demurrage  rate  of  $3  a  day,  and  a  reconsigning  charge  of  $5  a  car, 
which  I  will  ask  to  file.     This  is  to  be  distributed  among  the  shippers. 

The  same  are  hereto  annexed  and  marked  '  'Exhibits  Nos.  1  and  2, 
Mr.  Marble,  Chicago,  December  20,  night  session." 

Daniel  Willard,  having  been  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly 
sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  Chicago! 

Mr.  Wellard.  I  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  vice-president  of  the  Chicago,  Burlington 
and  Quincy  Railroad? 

Mr.  Wellard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  part  of  the  operation  of  that  road  is  under  your 
charge  1 

Mr.  Willard.  I  have  chaise  of  the  operation  and  maintenance  of 
the  whole  system. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  operation  and  maintenance? 

Mr.  Willard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  the  Chicago,  Burlington  and  Quincy  suffering  from 
a  shortage  of  cars? 

Mr.  Willard.  Why,  yes ;  to  some  extent,  but  no  more  than  our 
neighbors. 

Mr.  Marble.  Some  of  your  neighbors  report  that  they  are  short  of 
cars  and  others  that  they  are  not. 

Mr.  Willard.  Well,  we  are. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  that  more  cars  would  remedy  the  trouble, 
or  would  you  remedy  it  by  a  change  in  the  terminals  or  a  change  in 
methods  ? 

Mr.  Wellard.  Of  course,  something  done  in  various  directions  would 
no  doubt  help  remedv  the  situation.  I  do  not  know  that  any  one 
particular  thing  would  help  it.  The  trouble  with  the  Burlington  sys- 
tem is  perhaps,  as  much  as  anything  else,  that  our  business  has 
increased  to  an  extraordinary  deo:ree  in  the  last  year,  and  we  did  not 
foresee  sufficiently  what  our  requirements  would  be.  I  say  "we,"  but 
I  will  change  that  so  as  to  make  it  personal — I,  myself.  The  president  of 
the  Burlington  has  called  on  me  to  give  him  estimates  of  the  amount 
of  equipment  needed  from  time  to  time,  since  I  have  been  with  the 
company,  and  I  have  endeavored  to  look  ahead  so  far  as  I  could  and 
make  my  recommendations  accordingly.  I  have  recommended  such 
purchases  as  I  thought  were  necessary,  and  they  have  always  been 
approved. 

I  have  reason  to  believe  that,  had  I  recommended  more  liberal 
purchases,  they  would  also  have  been  approved,  so  that  if  we  are 


CAB   SHOBTAOE.  397 

short  to-day  (and  we  are  to  some  extent,  perhaps)  the  fault  pri- 
marily rests  with  me  for  not  looking  further  into  the  future. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  got  such  equipment  as  you  ordered  ? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Not  altogether,  out  I  will  explain  that.  A  year 
ago  we  had  a  very  prosperous  year  and  our  equipment  was  all  used 
to  its  fullest  extent,  out  we  had  no  very  general  complaint  of  shortage, 
and  I  think  we  satisfied  generally  our  patrons  in  a  very  good  way. 
Of  course,  we  are  anxious  to  do  all  the  business  we  can  do,  neces- 
sarily, because  the  more  business  the  more  earnings  for  the  rail- 
road, and  more  business  also  meant  that  the  ratio  of  operation  or 
operating  expense  would  be  less,  which  would  be  to  my  credit,  and 
our  self-mterest  naturally  impelled  us  to  want  to  do  all  the  business 
we  could.  The  outlook  for  the  future  seemed  good,  and  we  placed 
orders  for  200  locomotives,  in  the  aggregate,  to  be  received  during 
the  present  year  of  1906.  Of  these  200  locomotives  so  ordered,  we 
have  received  up  to  date,  I  think,  146.  They  are  or  have  been  here 
since  the  1st  of  November,  and  some  since  the  fore  part  of  October. 
But  the  manufacturers  have  not  been  able  to  keep  their  dates,  and 
we  have  been  disappointed  to  that  extent,  because  of  not  getting 
our  locomotives.     Tney  are  now,  however,  coming  in. 

That  increase  in  locomotives  was  equal,  probably,  in  efficiency 
(considering  the  fact  that  they  were  modern  and  large  engines)  to 
somewhere  from  20  to  30  per  cent  in  the  capacity  of  our  engines 
assigned  to  the  heavy  freight  service.  We  also  placed  orders  for 
5,000  freight  cars.  Of  that  number  2,000  and  just  a  few  hundred 
have  been  received  only.  One  thousand  steel  gondolas  that  have 
just  begun  to  arrive  should  all  have  been  here  in  October.  They 
were  promised  for  delivery  in  October,  and  they  were  ordered  in 
anticipation  of  the  fuel  business,  but  the  manufacturers  were  unable 
to  fill  the  orders.  The  2,000  box  cars  which  should  be  coming  to-day — 
we  should  have  had  at  this  time  probablv  500 — have  not  begun  to 
come  at  all,  but  we  expect  that  tney  will  begin  to  reach  us,  at  the 
latest,  some  time  in  January.  We  will  have  2,000  cars  coming  in 
in  January  or  February'  that  should  have  been  here  in  November 
and  December.  Now,  that  increase  in  car  equipment,  in  capacity, 
is  about  20  per  cent  of  the  equipment — what  our  equipment  was 
before  the  order  was  placed.  We  felt  that  in  ordering  that  number 
of  cars  we  were  not  only  providing  for  any  reasonable  increase  in 
traffic,  but  that  we  were  going  considerably  ahead  of  what  we  might 
reasonably  anticipate. 

Last  year  the  ton-miles  of  the  Burlington  road  increased  20  per 
cent.  It  so  happened  that  the  increase  in  ton-milage  was  about  the 
same  as  the  increase  in  the  equipment  ordered.  If  the  eq^uipment 
ordered  had  been  received  as  expected,  we  would  have  been  m  oetter 
shape  to  take  care  of  our  people.  Even  as  it  is,  the  situation  has  not 
been  very  serious.  West  of  tne  Missouri  River  there  has  been  no  gen- 
eral complaint  so  far  as  coal  loading  is  concerned,  and  there  is  no 
foundation  whatever  for  any  complamt  against  the  Burlington  Com- 
pany now,  because  for  the  last  six  weeks  or  two  months  we  have  fur- 
nished all  the  cars  that  could  be  loaded  with  coal  in  Wyoming,  in  the 
Sheridan  district,  and  we  have  given  our  connections  at  Denver  all  the 
cars  they  would  take  for  points  in  southern  Colorado  and  for  eastern 
Nebraska  points.     In  fact,  we  have  hauled  empties  up  there  in  excess 


398  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

of  their  requirements,  so  that  west  of  the  Missouri  River  there  has 
been  no  shortage  of  coal. 

There  has  been  at  times,  and  there  probably  may  be  to-day,  a  small 
shortage  of  cars  for  grain  loading  in  eastern  Nebraska,  perhaps  200  or 
300  cars,  but  that  shortage  does  not  exist  for  any  great  length  of  time. 
If  there  were  a  shortage  to-day  there  would  be  a  very  slight,  if  any, 
shortage  to-morrow.  There  is  no  case  so  far  as  I  know  where  any  ele- 
vator is  full  or  unable  to  receive  grain.  The  movement  from  eastern 
Nebraska  just  now  is  particularly  active,  and  has  been  for  the  last 
week  or  ten  days,  which  condition  I  suppose  is  brought  about  by 
favorable  market  conditions.  East  of  the  Missouri  River  we  are  fail- 
ing to  fill  our  orders  for  coal  loading  in  southern  Illinois.  I  think  it  is, 
however,  fair  to  say  that  we  are  furnishing  75  per  cent  of  the  cars 
that  are  asked  for.  We  are  generally  able  to  fill  orders  pretty  well  on 
Monday,  Tuesday,  and  Wednesday.  The  last  davs  in  the  week  we 
fail  more  or  less,  but  I  think  that  75  per  cent  of  what  is  required  is  a 
fair  statement  of  the  situation. 

So  far  as  I  have  heard  there  has  been  no  single  instance  of  great  suf- 
fering on  our  line;  certainly,  no  requests  at  all  have  reached  my  office 
for  any  special  movement  of  any  special  car  for  any  special  place. 
There  has  been  some  complaint  (and  I  regret  very  much  to  admit  that 
we  have  not  been  able  to  meet  it)  because  we  have  not  had  the  cars. 

We  are  more  fortunate  than  our  neighbors  in  some  respects,  with 
reference  to  interchange.  In  October  our  car-balance  sheet  showed 
that  we  had  4,000  more  cars  off  the  line  than  there  were  foreign  cars 
on  our  line.  Since  that  time  there  has  been  a  very  heavy  movement 
of  business  via  the  Burlington  line  from  its  Eastern  connections,  and 
to-day  I  suppose  there  are  about  2,000  more  foreign  cars  on  the  Bur- 
lington than  there  are  Burlington  cars  off  the  line. 

That  condition  of  affairs  comes  about  because  of  the  change  in  the 
movement  of  commodities  and  cars  coming  onto  our  line  loaded. 
There  is  no  loading  to  take  them  off,  practically,  and  they  do  not  get 
back  as  promptly  as  they  should.  We  are  not  short  of  equipment 
to-day  because  or  our  cars  not  being  at  home.  We  have  as  many  cars 
belonging  to  other  people  as  they  have  of  ours. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  cars  have  you  ? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  About  48,000. 

Commissioner  Lane.  About  48,000  cars? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Yes,  sir;  about  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  a  car  list  showing  the  cars  that  are  off  your 
line  and  foreign  cars  on  your  line  ? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  I  have  not  it  with  me,  but  I  can  get  it.  We  have 
such  a  weekly  statement  made. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  wish  you  would  furnish  us  with  such  a  statement, 
showing  for  the  last  three  months  the  balances  as  they  have  run. 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  I  would  be  very  glad  to.  In  that  connection  I  have 
a  statement,  which  I  would  be  glad  to  give  you  if  you  desire  it.  It  is  a 
summary  of  our  daily  operation,  and  it  shows  tne  operations  of  the 
previous  day  (I  think  I  have  it  with  me).  It  shows,  I  think,  for  to-day 
that  the  total  number  of  loads  and  empties  ready  to  be  moved  on  the 
entire  system  is  less  than  one-half  of  the  number  of  loads  and  empties 
moved  during  the  previous  twenty-four  hours.  I  mention  that  to 
show  that  there  is  no  congestion  on  the  road;  that  the  business  that 


OAK   SHORTAGE.  399 

was  at  stations  to  be  moved  is,  in  the  aggregate,  less  than  one-half  of 
the  business  handled  throughout  the  previous  twenty-four  hours. 

^Ir.  Marble.  These  statements  show  the  freight-car  movements 
day  by  day  ? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Yes,  sir.  Those  statements  are  prepared  in  very 
much  more  detail,  the  statements  that  are  filed  at  my  office  every 
morning.  I  would  be  glad  to  furnish  you  with  a  file  oi  the  originals. 
It  simply  shows  that  the  business  is  not  congested. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  file  tliis  with  your  testimony.  What  is  the 
average  daily  movement  of  your  freight  cars? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Last  year,  the  year  ending  June  30,  1906,  it  was  30 
miles  a  day,  or,  rather,  29.9  miles  per  day  for  the  year.  In  October 
last  it  was — that  is  this  very  last  October — it  was  33.3.  The  figures 
showing  the  average  for  the  year,  however,  are  hardly  fair  for  this 
reason:  Generally,  from  the  first  of  April  to  the  first  of  October,  we 
have  a  large  number  of  empty  cars  that  of  course  are  included  in  the 
divisor  when  getting  at  the  average  miles  of  cars,  the  average  miles  of 
all  cars.  I  suppose  one-third  thereof  was  coal-car  equipment  which 
is  out  of  service  during  the  summer  to  a  certain  extent,  and  more  or 
less  of  our  box-car  equipment.  Still,  many  of  our  stock  cars  are  also 
idle  in  the  summer  months,  so  that  the  figures  in  the  summer,  which 
would  be  included  in  the  years  average,  are  less  than  they  should  be, 
because  of  the  fact  that  we  are  not  able  in  the  summer  to  make  the 
same  number  of  miles. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  you  have  increased  the  movement  this  year 
over  Ifist? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  The  average  miles  made  by  all  cars  on  the  Burling- 
ton system  for  the  year  ending  June  30,  1905,  was  27  miles  per  car 
per  day.  For  the  following  year,  made  under  exactly  the  same  con- 
ditions, it  was  29.9  per  day,  or  an  increase  of  about  9  per  cent.  We 
made  in  October  this  year  33.3  with  all  cars  and  I  thinK  we  are  doing 
just  as  well  now. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  then,  this  year  shows  a  decided  increase  over 
last  year. 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  I  think  it  will,  for  the  reason  that  there  has  been  a 
more  active  demand  for  the  cars  this  year  than  there  was  a  year  ago, 
but  it  is  dependent  somewhat  of  course  on  the  weather  conditions 
during  the  winter  months.  If  the  weather  should  be  very  severe 
that  would  reduce  the  mileage. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  this  increase  in  mileage  at  all  due  to  any  change  in 
methods  on  the  part  of  the  road? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  I  think  it  is  possibly  due  to  the  fact  that  we  have 
been  giving  the  matter  very  close  attention  for  some  time  past, 
because  our  business  has  been  particularly  good,  and  we  have  oeen 
putting  forth  every  effort  on  our  part  to  take  care  of  such  increase. 
We  have  availed  ourselves  of  eveiy  rule  that  we  could  think  of  in 
order  to  increase  our  mileage.  We  have  watched  the  cars  very 
closely,  and  we  have  a  system  of  reports  showing  delays  at  all  ter- 
minals that  is  very  complete  in  its  details.  The  matter  is  very  closely 
watched  by  officers  appointed  for  that  purpose,  and  we  have  done  as 
well  as  we  know  how  in  trj'ing  to  get  the  maximum  mileage.  I  think 
it  is  only  fair  to  say  that  any  improvement  that  has  been  made  has 
been  due  to  the  fact  that  we  have  watched  it  more  closely  perhaps 


400  OAB  SHOBTAOS. 

than  before.  Then,  too,  before  that  the  business  was  not  so  heavy 
and  we  were  not  pressed  so  hard.  The  fact  that  we  are  doing  it  a  little 
better  now  is  perhaps  because  the  pressure  is  a  little  greater  and  has 
been  so  for  the  last  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  then  a  more  vi^lant  enforcement  of  the  rules 
now  existing  rather  than  any  change  m  the  rules? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  I  think  so.  I  may  say  this,  however,  that  in  the 
last  year  we  have  been  authorized  by  the  directors  to  spend  nearly 
$4,000,000 — I  think  three  million  seven  himdred  odd  thousand — in 
the  improvement  of  terminals.  At  Galesburg,  which  is  our  first 
heavy  division  terminal  west  of  Chicago,  we  are  just  completing 
arrangements  that  will  cost  about  $700,000.  We  are  expending  now 
more  than  $1,000,000  at  Lincoln,  Nebr.,  in  the  improvement  of  ter- 
minals at  that  place.  Now  we  have  built  this  summer  at  Harlem, 
which  is  just  this  side  of  Kansas  City,  a  new  terminal  which  will  cost 
upward  of  $300,000,  and  we  have  had  to  enlarge  many  of  the  termi- 
nals all  along  the  road — at  Denver  and  Omaha,  and  all  along — and  the 
aggregate  amount  of  money  which  will  probably  be  expended  for  that 
purpose  will  be  not  far  from  $4,000,000.  Of  course  we  ought  to  have 
received  some  benefit  from  those  expenditures,  if  they  were  wise,  and 
those  improvements  have  no  doubt  helped  somewhat  to  bring  about 
a  better  movement  of  the  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Take  for  illustration  a  point  300  miles  west  of  Chi- 
cago and  a  car  of  grain  billed  for  the  Chicago  market  passing  through 
two  division  points.  What  length  of  time  do  you  consider  fair  serv- 
ice for  you  to  give  that  car  before  it  is  reported  m  here  ? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  If  that  car  should  came  over  our  own  main  line 
from  Omaha,  and  pass  through  Iowa,  passing  through  our  main  line 
terminals,  it  ought  to  get  here  at  the  rate  of — it  ought  not  to  consume 
over  twelve  or  fourteen  hours  per  100  miles,  including  the  terminal 
delays.  That  would  be  contingent,  of  course,  on  some  things.  If 
we  should  receive  cars  for  shipment  of  grain,  for  instance,  on  Monday, 
they  might  be  detained  for  this  reason :  We  have  a  very  heavy  move- 
ment of  stock  into  Chicago  on  Monday,  sometimes  aggregating  as 
many  as  800  cars,  and  it  takes  practically  all  of  our  available  power 
from  Galesburg  on  Monday  to  bring  that  stock  in.  The  power  has 
to  get  back  again,  and  on  Monday,  sometimes  on  Wednesdays  and 
Thursdays,  slow  freight  is  delayed  waiting  for  the  preferred  move- 
ment of  stock.  On  other  days  there  should  be  no  such  delay,  and 
the  grain  ought  to  come  300  miles  over  the  main  lines  at  the  rat«  of 
100  miles  in  iFourteen  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  includes  the  time  in  the  division  points? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Over  our  main  line;  but  if  that  should  come  300 
miles  over  our  branch  lines  (and  50  per  cent  of  the  mileage  of  the 
Bm"lington  system  is  made  up  of  brancnes  on  some  of  which  the  traffic 
is  so  light  that  we  only  run  a  way  freight — one  way  freight  each  way — 
the  runs  are  short  and  are  afl^ected  by  local  conditions)  if  the  car 
came  over  such  a  portion  of  the  road  as  that,  it  would  not  make  the 
same  movement,  because  the  way  freights  only  run  during  the  day 
time. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  have  such  lines  in  Illinois? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  in  Iowa? 


CAB   SHOBTAOB.  401 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  Yes. 

Mr.  Mabble.  And  in  Nebraska) 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  In  every  State ;  yes. 

Mr.  Mabble.  Now,  wnat  proportion  of  the  time  taken  by  any 
usual  shipment  of  grain  would  be  on  such  a  branch  line  ? 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  I  could  not  answer  that  directly.  As  I  say,  about 
51  per  cent  of  our  entire  sj'stem  is  made  up  of  what  we  consider  as 
branch  lines,  and  yet  about  50  per  cent,  I  suppose,  or  90  per  cent  of 
the  business  is  done  on  50  per  cent  of  the  railroad. 

Mr.  Mabble.  Oil  the  mam  line  ?     • 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  Yes. 

Mr.  Mabble.  And  you  fix  that  at  from  twelve  to  fourteen  hours 
per  100  miles? 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  Assuming  that  it  would  come  on  a  slow  freight.  I 
might  mention  this:  The  speed  of  our  freight  trains  is  very  largely 
determined  by  commercial  conditions.  Take  the  main  line  of  the 
Burhngton  road.  Our  records  which  have  been  kept  for  two  or  three 
years,  made  up  on  a  practical  basis,  show  that  about  45  to  47  per  cent 
of  the  freight-train  miles  on  the  main  hne  are  run  by  what  we  speak  of 
as  "  expedited  trains."  That  is,  a  train  that  makes  a  fast  rate  of  speed 
in  order  to  meet  service  conditions.  For  instance,  take  the  stock  runs 
and  the  movement  of  merchandise  and  high-class  freight  between 
Chicago  and  the  Missouri  River.  That  47  per  cent  of  our  rreight-train 
miles  shows  an  average  train  of  less  than  68  per  cent  of  the  capacity  of  the 
engine,  and  even  so  much  more  freight  as  these  trains  do  haul  is  not  all 
fast  freight.  We  run  5  or  6  fast  freights  out  of  here  every  night,  and 
the  average  train  consists  of  less  than  68  per  cent  of  the  capacity  of  the 
engine;  but  the  fast  freight,  which  necessitates  the  running  of  that 
train,  will  constitute  only  a  portion  of  the  freight  which  is  so  carried, 
and  in  that  event  anything  that  happens  to  be  going  in  that  direction 
is  put  into  the  train  in  order  to  bring  it  up  to  67  or  68  per  cent  of  the 
capacity  of  the  engine;  so  that  if  a  car  of  slow  freight  happens  to  get 
on  to  that  train,  it  would  make  that  much  better  time. 

Mr.  Mabble.  You  do  that  often — put  on  that  class  of  freight  often? 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  Yes,  and  our  engines  haul  less  than  68  per  cent  of 
what  they  should  haul  at  a  more  moderate  rate  of  speed. 

Mr.  Mabble.  WTiat  difference  in  running  time  between  Chicago  and 
Omaha  do  you  figure  that  it  would  make  to  load  that  engine  90  per 
cent  of  its  capacity,  instead  of  68  per  cent  ? 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  It  would  make  a  difference  of  quite  a  good  many 
hours.  We  run  stock  from  Omaha  to  Chicago  in  twenty-four  hours — 
twenty-four  to  twentv-eight  hours.  The  slow  train  would  probably 
be  nearer  forty-eight  hours. 

Mr,  Mjvbble.  And  that  engine  would  be  loaded  to  what  capacity  or 
to  what  extent  of  its  capacity? 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  To  its  full  capacity,  whatever  it  would  pull  and  get 
along  in  good  shai)e. 

Mr.  Mabble.  Get  along  in  good  shape) 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  Yes. 

Mr,  ^Iabble.  That  is  to  say,  without  dragging,  and  without  delay- 
ing other  trains  by  failing  to  make  meeting  points? 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  Of  course,  that  would  De  proper  railroading,  to 
so  load  the  engines  that  they  can  accomplish  that  result,  get  over 

S.  Doc.  333,  59-2 ^26 


402  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

the  road  without  dragging.  I  think  there  is  considerable  misunder- 
standing among  many  people  as  to  the  loading  of  an  engine.  On 
almost  any  rauroad,  the  proper  data  would  show — or  on  almost 
any  division  accurate  information  would  show  that  perhaps  not 
over  30  per  cent  of  the  total  miles  of  that  division  would  be  of  the 
maximum  grade.  Necessarily  the  engines  are  given  a  train  which 
they  can  pull  up  the  maximum  grade  and  very  rarely  does  that 
exceed  30  per  cent  of  the  entire  division.  This  results  necessarily 
in  what  would  be  underloading  of  the  power  were  it  not  for  the 
maximum  grades  for  the  division.  We  have  no  cars  at  the  top  of 
the  grade  to  put  in  to  the  train,  and  the  engine  from  that  point  on 
is  nmning  with  a  light  load.  Take  it  from  the  Missouri  River  clear 
through  to  Chicago,  our  ruling  grade  is  sixty-six  hundredths  of  1 
per  cent.  But,  with  the  exception  of  a  few  iniles,  a  strip  about  6.8 
miles  long  the  balance  of  the  grade  is  not  more  than  three-nundredths 
of  1  per  cent,  and  while  the  engine  can  only  haul,  perhaps,  1,500  or 
1,600  tons  up  the  0.66  grade,  which  is  the  maximum  grade,  it  could 
haul  2,500  tons  after  it  got  up  there,  but  we  haven't  the  2,500  tons 
to  put  on,  unless  we  have  helpers  to  push  them  up  the  maximum 
grade,  and  we  do  that  in  the  busy  season.  After  the  train  gets  up 
there,  it  is  naturally  running  with  a  very  much  less  tonnage  than  the 
engine  could  haul,  but  that  is  necessary  so  that  draggiug  may  not 
occiu*.  Dragging,  as  we  say,  usually  takes  place  on  a  very  small  por- 
tion of  the  road,  and  of  course,  on  a  division  which  is  handling  a  con- 
siderable amomit  of  business,  there  can  not  be  much  dragging,  or  it 
would  greatly  reduce  the  capacity  of  that  division  to  move  business. 
It  would  result  in  the  trains  consuming  too  much  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  pay  rolls  of  your  engine 
force? 

Mr.  Wellard.  Yes,  to  some  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  they  generally  paid  on  a  mileage  basis? 

Mr.  Wellard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  much  overtime  earned  ? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Yes,  on  some  divisions.  On  some  divisions  it  runs 
very  high,  and  on  others  verv  low.  East  of  the  Missouri  River  it 
runs  from  5  to  6  per  cent,  and  in  some  months  higher.  West  of  the 
river  it  runs  sometimes  as  high,  on  some  divisions  as  high  as  20  per 
cent;  and  I  am  very  much  ashamed  of  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Wnen  it  is  20  per  cent  that  means  about  two  hours 
a  day  overtime  for  the  men  ? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  It  means  more  than  that  for  the  trains  that  get  it, 
because  the  majority  of  the  trains  get  over  the  road  and  don't  make 
it,  but  those  that  do  make  it  make  a  lot  of  it.  That  is  caused  some- 
times by  bad  water;  that  happens  on  the  western  portion  of  the  Une, 
where  the  water  is  bad.  In  some  instances  weatner  conditions  are 
severe,  and  it  seems  as  if  all  things  were  conspiring  to  retard  the  move- 
ment of  freight. 

Mr.  ^Iarble.  Do  you  regard  a  car  movement  averaging  from  27 
to  33  miles  per  day  as  satisfactory,  in  view  of  the  fact  that  slow 
freight,  when  it  moves,  moves  7  or  8  miles  per  hour  ? 

Au-.  WiLLARD.  We  have  no  case  where  slow  freight  moves  that 
slow  when  it  moves. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  that  makes  the  comparison  still  greater.     Do 


CAB  8HOBTAOB.  403 

you  regard  this  movement  of  freight  cars  as  satisfactory,  or  do  you 
think  tne  movement  of  freight  cars  should  be  and  can  be  stimulated  ? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  I  think  it  should  be.  Just  how  it  can  be  I  am  not 
so  clear.  I  am  trying  all  I  can,  and  I  have  been  for  some  3'ears,  to 
stimulate  the  movement  of  freight  cars,  but  I  have  not  met  with  very 
encouraging  success.  We  have  done  what  we  have  done;  we  have 
done  the  best  we  could,  and  we  have  succeeded  in  making  the  increase 
that  I  have  mentioned.  I  am  ashamed  every  time  that  I  ask  the 
owners  of  the  property  to  buy  additional  cars,  when  I  have  to  show 
that  we  are  only  doing  what  we  are. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  much  trouble  with  cars  being  used 
as  warehouses? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Well,  we  share  it  in  common  with  other  roads. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  due  to  the  fact  that  your  rules  are  not  prop- 
erly framed,  or  to  the  fact  that  thev  are  abused? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  You  might  say  that  it  is  owing  to  both  of  those 
causes.  Railroad  contlitions  and  the  whole  scheme  of  transportation, 
the  transpK)rtation  end  and  the  commercial  end,  are  two  things  which 
are  interwoven  to  such  an  extent  that  none  of  the  various  conditions 
which  we  confront  have  appeared  suddenly.  They  have  grown  up 
together  and  gradually.  The  facilities  with  which  manufacturers 
and  people  who  do  business  with  us  provided  themselves  some  years 
ago  nave  in  some  degree  at  least  become  smaller  rather  than  larger. 
That  may  be  said  to  be  owing  to  this  reason:  Here  in  Chicago,  people 
doing  business  here  purchased  land  some  years  ago,  and  put  a  plant 
upon  it,  and  had  sufficient  surplus  land  for  storage  room  and  trackage 
facilities.  Since  then  commercial  conditions  have  warranted  them 
in  increasing  their  plants,  and  they  have  done  so,  but  they  have  used 
up  the  storage  room  and  they  have  not  any  more  trackage  room  than 
they  had  before.  They  have  been  severely  pressed  under  such  con- 
ditions to  handle  the  business,  and  of  course  it  complicates  and 
embarrasses  our  end  of  it.  Of  course,  when  I  say,  and  when  it  is  a 
fact,  that  the  railroad  business  has  increased  20  per  cent  in  the  last 
year  it  simply  means  that  the  business  of  everyoody  else  which  we 
serve  has  increased  to  the  same  extent. 

I  think  the  shippers  are  fully  alive  to  the  situation.  I  find  them 
so  along  our  entire  system.  I  think  they  appreciate  the  fact  that  the 
unnecessary  detention  of  cars  means  fewer  cars  for  all,  and  we  have 
found  them  as  a  rule  willing  to  cooi>erate  with  us.  They  can  not 
bring  about  a  change  all  at  once.  I  believe  if  we  should  say  to  the 
man  who  had  been  detaining  cars  three  or  four  days  that  on  to-morrow 
we  were  going  to  cut  him  off  and  let  him  have  a  car  only  one  day  it 
would  not  be  right.  I  think  the  people  that  we  serve,  as  a  rule,  are 
willing  to  edjust  themselves  to  tne  conditions,  and  are  doing  it  as 
rapidly  as  they  can. 

Air.  Marb'.e.  You  do  not  feel  at  all  like  laying  the  blame  for  the 
matter  entirely  on  the  shippers  or  entirely  on  the  railroads? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  No;  I  tnmk  it  has  been  mutual.  The  growth  has 
gone  ahead  of  anything  that  either  one  of  them  could  foresee.  We 
would  know  how  to  deal  with  shippers  if  they  detained  our  cars 
unnecessarily. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  making  or  do  you  contemplate  making  any 
change  in  your  rules? 


404  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Yes,  we  have  made  some  change  abeady.  The 
matter  was  discussed  to-day,  as  to  the  reconsis^mnent  of  coal.  We 
have  had  some  trouble  of  that  kind.  Coal  woul3  come  into  our  yards 
here  in  Chicago  and  not  be  consigned  promptly.  We  saw  the  people 
who  were  doin^  it  and  explained  to  them  wnat  happened  under  such 
conditions,  ana  in  most  instances  they  were  willing  to  meet  the  situ- 
ation. There  happened  to  be  two  or  three  little  cases  where  they  did 
not  respond,  and  I  gave  instructions  to  the  effect  that  we  would  not 
furnish  cars  for  their  loading.  That  settled  that.  I  have  not  any  fear 
at  all  but  what  we  will  be  able  to  work  out  wnth  our  shippers  such 
improvements  as  may  be  necessary,  or  which  are,  at  any  rate,  desir- 
able. 

One  thing  that  we  have  tried  to  encourage  for  the  last  few  years, 
and  in  reference  to  which  we  have  met  with  very  good  success,  is  the 
matter  of  having  people  who  receive  coal  put  themselves  in  a  little 
better  shape  to  unload  cars  more  promptly,  but  even  in  that  regard 
we  have  not  been  able  to  do  quite  as  we  ought  to.  We  have  bought  in 
the  last  three  years  3,000  box  cars  with  the  bottoms  fixed  so  the  coal 
could  be  dropped  out,  and  of  the  11,000  open  gondola  cars  we  have 
there  are  4,000  with  droj>-bottom  arrangements.  We  have  said  to 
our  shippers,  "We  would  like  to  have  you  erect  a  small  trestle  at  ter- 
minals, and  we  will  put  the  cars  on  there,  and  you  can  dump  them 
quickly  and  save  the  expense  of  shoveUng,  and  save  the  delay  to  the 
cars." 

In  some  cases  they  have  done  that,  but  of  course  it  follows  that 
where  only  half  of  our  equipment  is  so  fixed  we  can  not  always  guar- 
antee that  after  they  have  spent  their  money  for  the  trestle  they  will 
always  get  the  cars  that  will  dump.  We  have  not  been  able  to  press 
it  and  say,  "You  must  do  this,"  because  it  might  happen  that  after 
they  had  got  their  trestle  fixed  we  would  give  them  a  car  that  could 
not  be  dumped  at  all.  But  they  show  a  disposition  to  be  fair — at 
least  I  find  them  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  plenty  of  power,  motive  power? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Yes,  we  have  a  surplus  of  power.  Six  weeks  ago, 
in  October  or  September,  we  loaned  15  of  our  best  engines  to  the 
Great  Northern  road  to  help  them,  and  now  we  have  them  all  back, 
and  there  is  no  shortage  of  power  on  our  system  whatever.  We  are 
not  short,  and  our  daily  statement  shows  tnat  there  is  no  congestion 
on  the  line  anywhere,  and  we  have  got  about  forty  more  engines  com- 
ing within  the  next  two  or  three  weeks. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  labor? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Labor  is  hard  to  get  in  certain  lines. 

Mr.  Marble.  Eno;ine  hands? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  We  have  no  trouble  with  them.  The  only  trouble 
we  have  had  from  labor  is  that  we  have  been  very  much  handicapped 
in  making  improvements — terminal  improvements.  It  was  very  hard 
to  get  unskilled  labor  during  the  summer,  and  part  of  the  work  that 
should  have  been  finished  some  weeks  ago  is  not  finished  yet. 

Mr.  Marble.  Skilled  labor  you  have  had  no  difficultj-  m  obtaining? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  We  have  had  no  difficulty  in  getting  all  of  that  we 
needed.     We  have  taken  care  of  our  cars  and  engines. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  yet,  with  all  of  these  difficulties,  so  far  as  you 
have  described  them,  according  to  this  statement  here  you  are  only 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  405 

about  half  a  day  behind  in  your  business,  so  far  as  movement  of  loaded 
cars  is  concerned? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Oh,  no.  We  never  would  get  any  closer  up  than 
that.  We  could  not  get  any  closer.  I  think  that  statement  is  as 
good  as  we  could  get.  I  would  not  undertake  to  say  that  with  all  the 
facilities  we  could  get,  that  we  could  make  it  much  better  than  that  is, 
as  far  as  the  movement  is  concerned.  The  only  way  that  we  are  hurt 
in  the  shortage  of  equipment  is  this:  We  are  not  able  to  give  every- 
body a  car  who  wants  to  load  one  to-day.  We  are  failing  to  furnish 
every  man  with  a  car  who  has  a  load  to  ship.  Of  course,  From  purely 
selfish  interests,  we  would  be  glad  to  furnish  everyone  a  car  who 
wanted  one.  Our  earnings  would  be  better  if  we  had  more  cars,  but 
the  cars  that  we  have  are  being  moved  promptly;  there  is  no  conges- 
tion anywhere. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Does  your  report  mean  that  to-morrow  you 
will  be  able  to  give  the  man  who  wants  one  a  car? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  No,  that  report  has  no  reference  to  the  furnishing 
of  cars,  but  to  the  movement  of  the  car  that  has  been  loaded,  and  the 
number  of  empties  available.  That  is  a  report  taken  at  5  o'clock 
every  morning  on  the  whole  system,  showing  the  number  of  loads 
and  empty  cars  at  all  points  awaiting  movement;  also  showing  that 
the  number  of  loads  and  empties  at  all  points  awaiting  movement  at 
5  o'clock  this  morning  was  less  than  hair  in  number  of  the  total  num- 
ber that  was  used  yesterday,  so  that  we  are  then  within  twelve  hours 
of  being  out  of  business.     There  is  no  congestion  there. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Does  not  that  mean  that  the  man  who  wants 
a  car  for  to-morrow  can  get  it  ? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  No,  it  does  not  mean  that.  It  means  that  all  the 
empties  we  have  are  being  moved  promptly,  but  it  does  not  mean 
that  we  have  got  all  the  empties  that  our  shippers  would  like. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  75  per  c^nt  of  tnem? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  That  is  in  soutnern  Illinois.  West  of  the  river  we 
are  very'  much  better  than  that,  because  we  have  taken  especial  pains 
west  of  the  river  to  keep  our  cars  well  supplied  out  there.  The  people 
along  our  line  have  to  depend  on  the  Burlington  Road,  and  the  situ- 
ation is  somewhat  different  than  it  was  in  southern  Illinois.  There 
has  been  no  shortage  in  Wyoming. 

Mr.  Marble.  Those  orders  that  are  behind  or  that  you  don't  fill — 
does  that  mean  that  you  refuse  to  take  those  orders? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  No,  no;  the  man  will  order  20  or  30  cars  to  load  with 
coal  to-morrow,  and  perhaps  we  are  only  able  to  furnish  15,  and  the 
next  day  he  will  get  15,  and  the  next  day  we  furnish  15.  It  means 
simply  that  we  are  not  able  to  give  every  man  all  the  cars  he  would 
like  to  load  coal  in. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  any  of  these  people 
ordering  cars  are  acquainted  with  this  fact,  and  are  ordering  more 
than  they  really  want  so  as  to  get  what  they  do  want? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  We  sometimes  find  that  to  be  the  fact,  but  to  what 
extent  that  applies  in  this  case  I  am  unable  to  say.  There  are  some 
thin^  in  the  coal  business  affecting  the  use  of  cars;  some  of  them  are 
withm  the  power  of  the  shippers  to  fijc  and  some  are  perhaps  not. 
There  is  a  rule  that  obtains  in  all  the  soft-coal  territory,  which  is  this: 
Unless  a  car  that  is  for  that  day's  loading — all  cars  for  that  day's  load- 
ing— is  placed  in  not  later  than  8  o'clock  in  the  morning,  the  miners 


406  CAB  8H0BTAGB. 

won't  go  into  the  mine,  and  if  the  cars  should  arrive  later  these 
empties  remain  idle  imtil  the  following  day.  Now,  the  mine  operator 
can  not  help  that  condition  of  things,  because  that  is  a  rule  of  the 
union  and  he  is  powerless.  It  is  one  of  the  conditions  that  work 
against  the  best  use  of  the  equipment.  Then,  again,  some  of  the  mines 
have  not  prepared  themselves  to  load  box  cars.  They  want  open  cars 
all  the  time  and,  we  are  sometimes  compelled  to  furnish  box  cars  and 
stock  cars  for  loading,  and  they  can  not  load  them  because  they  have 
not  arranged  for  it.  In  nearly  aU  cases  they  can  only  load  a  certain 
number  of  box  cars,  because  they  have  a  portion  of  their  output  which 
is  screened  fine  coal,  and  that  is  all  loaded  in  open  cars,  and  unless  we 
furnish  a  sufficient  number  of  open  cars  together  with  the  box  cars 
they  won't  run  them  out. 

Mr.  !Marbl£.  Has  your  company  had  any  peculiar  difficulties  at 
the  Chicago  terminal? 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  Nothing  peculiar.  We  get  a  little  crowded  here, 
but  we  took  measures  withm  the  last  two  weeks  to  clear  up  our  yard, 
and  we  have  no  congestion  in  Chicago  to-day  at  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  Has  it  been  true  that  grain  in  cars  of  the  Burlington 
road  was  selling  for  less  on  the  board  of  trade  in  this  city  than  gram  in 
cars  of  other  roads  ? 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  It  may  be ;  I  have  not  heard  of  it. 

Mr.  Mabble.  Your  situation  here  is  better  than  it  has  been  ? 

Mr.  WnxABD.  It  is  absolutely  aU  right.  We  have  no  congestion  at 
all. 

Conunissioner  Hablan.  If  you  have  no  congestion,  then  your 
difficulty  is  simply  the  complamt  of  car  shortage. 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  That  is  aU  the  difficulty  that  I  am  aware  of.  All 
the  complaint  that  I  know  of  to-day  would  be  that  of  certain  shippers 
who  have  ordered  20  cars  and  only  got  15.  There  will  be  cases  on  the 
Burlin^on  to-day,  and  every  day  this  year,  and  every  year,  where 
cars  will  be  imexpectedly  detain^  or  they  will  be  held  for  repairs  or 
something,  in  a  way  that  makes  us  all  blush  when  we  hear  aoout  it. 
That  is  perhaps  due  to  lack  of  system,  or  the  need  of  better  discipline, 
or  thin^  of  that  kind,  but  that  is  no  greater  to-day  than  it  has  been 
at  aU  tunes.  There  are,  of  course,  individual  and  exceptional  cases, 
but  the  only  real  complaint  that  I  know  of  that  could  be  made  against 
our  company  is  that  we  are  failing  in  Illinois  to  furnish  100  per  cent 
of  the  empties  ordered.  I  think  we  are  furnishing  75  per  cent  or 
more. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Have  you  many  complaints  coming  to  you 
from  shippers  along  your  line  ? 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  Some  from  shippers,  but  I  have  not  had  any  from 
consignees.  It  is  not  an  imcommon  thing  to  receive  a  letter  from  a 
shipper  saying  that  yesterday  he  only  got  15  cars  where  he  ordered 
20. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Practically  none  from  consignees? 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  I  have  not  had  any  that  I  recall. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  Do  you  tnow  what  the  appropriation  for 
this  year  is  for  iinprovements  and  betterments  for  your  system  f 

Mr.  WiLLABD.  I  know  what  they  were  in  the  year  1906. 

Commissioner  Hablan.  What  w'ere  they  for  1906? 

Mr.  WnxABD.  We  had  a  lot  of  them  that  ran  over,  that  were  not 


CAB  SHOBTAQB.  407 

completed,  which  we  worked  up  this  year.  Those  that  were  incom- 
plete and,  I  believe,  the  new  works  were  upward  of  $16,000,000  for 
equipment  and  new  work. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  was  it  the  year  before? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  I  do  not  remember,  but  I  should  imagine  that  we 
spent  the  year  before  probably  $6,000,000  or  $7,000,000. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  exclusive  of  car  equipment? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Well,  not  this  year,  no.  Of  the  $16,000,000  this 
year,  there  was  about  $4,000,000  for  new  car  equipment.  Those 
figures,  however,  I  would  be  glad  to  furnish  you. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  If  you  will  we  will  be  glad  to  have  them, 
beginning  with  the  year  1901. 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  I  am  just  speaking  from  memory,  of  course. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  A  statement  showing  the  appropriation 
for  improvements  and  car  equipment,  and  then  the  additions  to  ter- 
minal faciUties,  tracks,  and  so  on. 

Mr.  Willakd.  I  will  be  very  glad  indeed  to  do  that. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Also  showing  your  increase  in  tonnage  over 
the  same  period,  and  your  purchase  of  new  cars. 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  Yes,  sir;  I  will  be  glad  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  And,  if  you  can  do  so,  showing  your  probable  expen- 
ditures for  next  year. 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  I  have  been  already  authorized  to  purchase  75  loco- 
motives and  I  have  placed  an  order,  and  I  will  have  a  balance  of  25  for 
next  year.  We  will  probably  purchase  100  locomotives.  I  have 
recommended  that  we  try  to  get  5,000  cars  next  year.  We  probably 
can  not  get  them  delivered,  but  we  can  get  some  of  them.  To-day 
we  can  not  get  deliveries  promised  until  next  October. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Don't  you  build  your  own  engines? 

Mr.  WiLLARD.  No,  sir.  We  have  built  some  since  I  have  been  with 
the  company.  We  have  built  about  20  switch  engines,  but  we  have 
increased  our  equipment  so  rapidly  that  our  shop  capacity  has  not 

Permitted  us  to  take  care  of  it  and  build  new  engines.  We  expect, 
owever,  this  next  year  to  ask  for  authority  to  spend  a  million  ana 
a  quarter  on  increased  shop  facilities  and  we  may  be  able  to  then 
build  a  few  switch  engines.  We  would  not  undertake  to  build  the 
heavy  freight  or  passenger  engine. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  will  bring  the  car  sheets  showing  the  number  of 
your  cars  on  forei<?rn  lines  and  the  number  of  foreign  cars  on  your  lines, 
80  that  it  may  be  filed  with  the  Commission. 
Mr.  WiLLARD.  Yes,  I  wiU  have  those  sent  in. 
(Witness  excused.) 

James  M.  Warner,  called  as  a  witness,  having  been  duly  sworn,  tes- 
tified as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 
Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  general  superintendent  of  the  C.  and  W.  L 
Railroad  Company? 
Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  full  name  of  that  road  ? 
Mr.  Warner.  Also  the  Belt  Railway  of  Chicago. 
Mr.  Marble.  C.  and  W.  I.,  what  do  those  initials  stand  for? 
Mr.  Warner.  Chicago  and  Western  Indiana. 


408  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  peculiar  function  of  the  Chicago  and 
Western  Indiana  Railway? 

Mr.  Warner.  We  furnish  terminal  facilities  for  five  companies. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  which  companies? 

Mr.  Warner.  Practically  for  six;  the  Chicago  and  Eastern  Illi- 
nois— to  them  we  furnish  ireight  terminals.  For  the  Grand  Trunk, 
the  Monon,  Chicago,  Indianapolis  and  Louisville;  the  Erie,  the 
Wabash,  and  also  furnish  passenger  facilities  for  the  Santa  Fe  road. 

Mr.  Mabble.  Is  that  Belt  Railway  Comjjany  another  institution, 
another  corporation  altogether? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  a  transfer  railroad. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  switching  railroad  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  AVho  owns  the  Chicago  and  Western  Indiana  ?  Is  it 
a  separate  corporation,  or  is  it  owned  and  controlled  by  the  railroads 
which  it  serves? 

Mr.  Warner.  It  is  owned  by  the  five  proprietary  companies  which 
I  have  named,  not  including  the  Santa  Fe  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  Belt  Railway  Company? 

Mr.  Warner.  It  is  owned  by  the  same  company. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  ample  terminal  facilities  for  the  companies 
which  you  represent? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  consider  that  the  operation  of  those  roads 
is  congested  or  hampered  by  reason  of  insufficent  terminal  facilities? 

Mr.  Warner.  Not  in  the  Chicago  district;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  Belt  Railway,  engaged  in  switching,  is  it  able 
to  give  satisfactory  service? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  consider  that  you  are  making  any  undue 
delays  in  moving  cars  from  one  road  to  another  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  No,  sir.  We  are  increasing  our  facilities  on  the  Belt 
Railroad,  and  we  have  increased  our  facilities  on  the  Chicago  and 
Western  Indiana  to  quite  a  considerable  extent  in  the  last  year  or  two, 
and  extensive  increases  in  facilities  are  authorized  and  will  be  made 
in  the  coming  year. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  At  a  total  expense  of  what? 

Mr.  Warner.  For  those  authorized  on  the  Western  Indiana  it  will 
approximate  something  like  $6,000,000.  That  includes  the  elevation 
01  its  tracks  and  the  laying  of  additional  tracks  also.  The  increase 
on  the  Belt  Railway  proper  will  approximate  something  like 
$1,000,000  or  $1,250,000  for  the  increased  yard  facilities  principally. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  heard  the  testimony  this  afternoon  in  regard  to 
the  length  of  time  required  to  get  a  car  through  Chicago  from  one 
road  to  another,  did  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  I  do  not  know  that  I  heard  the  length  of  time  stated 
that  it  required.  I  missed  some  of  the  statements  of  the  gentleman 
on  account  of  not  being  able  to  hear,  as  I  was  sitting  in  the  hack  part 
of  the  room. 

Mr.  Marble.  Testimony  to  the  eflfect  that  coal  coming  in  here  from 
the  East  and  being  switched,  and  the  trains  segregated,  and  switched 
again  to  the  point  of  reconsignment — that,  considering  all  those 
things,  it  took  several  days  to  get  a  car  through  Chicago,  and  several 
different  switching  operations.    Did  you  hear  that  testimony? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  409 

Mr.  Warner.  I  heard  part  of  it,  but  not  sufficient  of  it  to  remember 
now  what  was  said. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Midgley  stated,  Mr.  Warner,  in  con- 
nection with  his  theory  that  through  cars  ought  not  to  Ix^  brought 
into  the  city  at  all — that  they  ought  to  be  cleai*ed  out  at  the  Stickney 
track — he  said  that  cars  brought  into  the  city,  consigned  to  points 
beyond,  sometimes  take  as  much  as  two  or  three  weeks  to  get  out  of 
the  city  and  be  sent  forward  on  their  journey — ^their  eastern  or  their 
western  journey,  as  the  case  may  be. 

Mr.  ^\  ARNKR.  I  did  not  hear  that  portion  of  the  testimony,  but  I 
would  not  believe  that  it  would  be  necessary  to  consume  as  much  time 
as  that  under  ordinary  conditions.  Congestion  in  some  one  of  the 
companies' yards  might  result  in  unusual  delay,  but  I  do  not  think  that 
the  time  consumed  m  moving  cars  through  Chicago  is  anything  like 
as  great  as  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  do  you  think  it  is? 

Mr.  Warner.  Well,  it  varies.  Under  the  present  arrangement  of 
allowing  a  certain  amount  of  free  time  in  Chicago  for  the  reconsign- 
ing  of  cars  it  possibly  would  take  a  week,  providing  the  consignee 
availed  himself  of  all  the  free  time  that  is  given  under  the  rules  on 
certain  commodities.  For  instance,  on  coal,  I  think  at  the  present 
time  a  limit  of  five  days  is  given  for  the  reconsignment  of  coal.  Now, 
assuming  that  he  used  up  all  that  time,  it  would  probably  take  two 
or  three  days  before  the  coal  was  finally  moved  out  of  Chicago.  The 
delays,  as  I  see  them,  in  the  large  switching  districts,  are  due,  in  a 

freat  measure,  to  the  time  consumed  in  waiting  for  reconsignments. 
n  some  cases,  perhaps,  there  is  an  unnecessary  amount  of  renandling 
of  the  car,  and  the  perfect  movement,  as  I  see  it,  would  be  the  move- 
ment from  the  point  where  the  shipment  originates  direct  to  the  desti- 
nation without  any  rehandling.     That,  of  course,  is  impossible. 

Next  to  that  is  to  reduce  such  waste  time  to  a  minimum.  To  do 
that  would  necessitate,  first,  the  final  destination  being  shown  or 
given  at  the  originating  point.  Second,  the  facilities  of  the  railroad 
companies  should  be  so  arranged  that  they  could  reduce  the  rehan- 
dling of  the  car — that  is,  I  mean  by  that  the  ability  to  move  it  from 
one  yard  or  one  station  to  another  station  in  one  or  two  movements  of 
the  car  and  not  be  compelled  to  resort  to  so  many  movements  before  it 
is  finally  placed,  which  results  in  a  delay  at  each  one  of  the  several 
stations  that  it  is  stopped  at  for  rehandling  or  classification. 

Then,  in  order  to  oring  about  that  result — to  reduce  the  delay  as 
much  as  possible — it  would  be  necessary,  presumably,  to  make  some 
change  in  our  present  practice.  It  would  be  necessary  possibly  for 
the  consignee  to  have  a  sufficient  amount  of  storage  room  for  certain 
of  the  commodities  to  tide  him  over — storage  sufficient  to  accommo- 
date a  supply  for  a  day  or  two  days.  That  would  be  sufficient  tinie 
to  cover  the  incidental  delays  in  the  movement  of  the  car,  due  to  the 
various  causes,  including  weather  conditions,  that  sometimes  result 
in  the  slow  movement  of  cars. 

It  seems  to  me  that,  by  the  united  action  on  the  part  of  both  the 
railway  companies  and  the  shippers,  that  there  could  be  an  improve- 
ment in  the  moving  of  cars  through  the  terminals  without  any  serious 
difficulty  or  expense  to  either. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  changes  to  recommend  by  which  those 


410  OAR  SHORTAGE. 

shippers  who  are  not  willing  to  do  what  they  should  in  this  respect 
coiud  be  forced  by  self-interest  to  do  so? 

Mr.  Warner.  Why,  I  am  not  so  thoroughly  informed  on  this  sub- 
ject, but  it  is  my  idea  that  if  a  reconsignment  charge  were  made  in 
the  terminal  district  it  would  have  the  effect  of  reducing  that  class  of 
delays  which  now  exist  and  which  are  due  to  the  holding  of  cars  for 
reconsignment. 

Commissioner  Harlak.  It  was  stated  here  to-day  by  a  coal  man 
that  there  is  a  reconsignment  charge  of  40  cents  a  ton.  That  amounts 
to  about  $12  a  car,  does  it  not? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes;  I  do  not  think  that  that  is  general  in  the  Chi- 
cago district.  I  think  there  are  a  large  percentage  of  the  roads  that, 
up  to  the  present  time,  have  made  no  reconsignment  charge ;  that  the 
business  has  been  brought  into  Chicago  subject  to  reconsignment 
orders  and  no  charge  has  been  made  for  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Not  even  a  switching  charge? 

Mr.  Warner.  No  ;  not  even  a  switching  charge  in  some  cases. 

Commissioner.  Harlan.  What  is  the  general  practice  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  I  think  that  has  been  the  general  practice  among  the 
railroads,  as  a  whole. 

Conmiissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  regard  the  reconsignment  privi- 
lege as  a  thing  that  is  very  much  abused  by  the  shippei-s  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes;  I  do. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  that  it  has  much  to  do  with  this 
delay  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  I  do ;  I  think  it  has. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  In  getting  cars  moved? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir. 

Conmiissioner  Harlan.  Well,  now,  could  you  take  a  typical  case? 
Say  a  shipment  of  coal  from  the  East  that  comes  to  Chicago  on  a  coal- 
carrying  road,  and  then  is  reconsigned  to  some  point  in  the  West — 
now,  what  would  be  the  probable  movement  of  that  car  within  the 
terminal  limits  of  Chicago,  and  what  is  the  number  of  days  that 
would  be  consumed  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  It  would  come  to  Chicago,  consigned  to  John  Smith, 
notify  some  one. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Warner.  Under  the  present  rules  they  would  be  entitled  to  five 
days'  free  time  for  holding  that  car. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  AVhere  would  the  car  be  held  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  It  would  be  held  by  the  road  bringing  it  into  Chicago. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Within  the  city  limits  or  Chicago,  or  at 
some  outside  yard  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  In  some  cases  within  the  city  limits,  and  in  others  just 
outside  of  the  city  limits.  For  instance,  take  the  Erie.  I  think  their 
storage  yard  is  at  Hammond,  Ind.,  just  outside  of  the  city  limits, 
while  the  storage  yard  of  the  Illinois  Central  is  inside. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  It  would  stay  in  Hammond,  say,  for  five 
days? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  then  it  is  reconsigned  to  Omaha,  we 
will  say? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  411 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Now,  what  would  be  its  course? 

Mr.  Warner.  The  road  bringing  it  into  Chicago  would  deliver  it 
to  the  outbound  road.  If  it  was  going  over  the  Burlington  it  would 
be  delivered  to  the  Burlington. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Would  it  not  get  onto  your  belt  line  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  It  might  not.  We  handle  only  about,  I  should  sav, 
40  per  cent,  33  to  40  per  cent  of  the  business.  Some  of  the  business  is 
delivered  direct  by  the  companies  bringing  it  in  here  to  the  companies 
taking  it  out. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  If  it  were  handled  on  you  line,  who  would 
pay  the  switching  charge? 

Mr.  Warner.  The  road  that  gave  it  to  us,  delivered  it  to  us — the 
delivering  road. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Not  the  shipper,  except  under  some  rules 
recently  established?     Is  that  the  case? 

Mr.  Warner.  Not  so  far  as  I  know.  I  do  not  think  the  shipper 
pays  it  where  it  is  a  through  shipment — where  it  is  going  beyond 
Chicago. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  think  the  abuse  of  the  privilege  of 
reconsi^nment  is  so  serious  that  measures  should  be  taken  to  curtail 
that  privilege  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  I  think  that  it  largely  contributes  to  the  terminal 
delay. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  it  the  largest  factor  in  the  terminal 
delay  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  I  think  so. 

C'Ommissioner  Harlan.  What  other  factor  enters  into  that  delay  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  In  some  cases  the  facilities  of  the  railroads  are  not 
sufficient  to  handle  the  business  without  causing  some  delay. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  had  in  mind  any  other  factor,  not  of  that 
kind  that  would  require  new  construction  or  new  yards.  Is  there  any 
other  rule  or  privilege  enjoyed  by  shippers  that  tends  to  delay  the 
movement  of  cars? 

Mr.  Warner.  Well,  under  the  present  rules  the  grain  receivers  are 
allowed  five  days  to  unload  their  grain.  As  to  many  of  the  other 
commodities  only  forty-eight  hours  is  allowed.  On  hay,  I  think, 
the  allowance  is  something  like  four  days  after  it  is  placed  on  the 
team  track,  and  it  is  then  occupying  room  that  is  very  valuable;  but 
the  shipper  says  that  that  is  a  necessity  in  order  that  he  may  properly 
dispose  of  the  hay  by  sample  on  the  board  of  trade. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  that  four  days  after  the  notice  is  sent  to 
the  consignee? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes;  after  the  car  is  actually  placed  on  the  team 
track ;  that  is  my  recollection  of  the  rule. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Without  regard  to  when  the  notice  arrives 
in  the  hands  of  the  consignee? 

Mr.  Warner.  Well,  I  think  the  notice  must  be  sent  out  a  sufficient 
time  in  advance  to  permit  of  its  being  received  by  him  before  the  car 
is  placed  before  it  becomes  effective. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  your  roads  own  any  cars  of  their  own  ? 

Mr.  Warner,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  furnish  cars! 

Mr.  Warner.  For  local  business;  yes,  sir. 


412  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  local  business,  as  between  the  different 
industries  in  the  city  ? 

Mr.  Warner.  Between  different  industries  on  our  road. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  switching  railroad  company  has  no  equipment, 
has  it,  or  does  it  have  cars  also? 

Mr.  Warner.  I  refer  to  the  switching  road.  They  own  something 
like  700  or  800  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  enough? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  enough  power? 

Mr.  Warner.  Yes,  sir ;  more  than  enough  power. 

H.  G.  Earl,  called  and  sworn  as  a  witness,  was  examined  and  tes- 
tified as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes.  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  are  the  superintendent  of  car  service  of  the 
Chicago  Junction  Railway  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  Chicago  Junction  Railway  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  It  is  a  switching  road. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  Substantially  similar  to  the  Belt  Road  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir;  to  a  large  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  different  function  do  you  perform  from  that 
which  is  performed  by  the  Belt  Road  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Well,  I  don't  know  that  we  perform  any  different 
function. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  serve  more  railroads  than  the  Belt  Railroad 
does  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  We  serve  all  the  roads  entering  Chicago. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  the  Belt  Road  also  serve  all  the  roads  entering 
Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  I  do  not  know  that  they  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  know  about  that? 

Mr.  Earl.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  your  business  substantially  a  stock  yards  business  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^Vhat  delays  do  you  find  to  cars  entering  Chicago  and 
interfering  with  their  movements  that  you  think  can  be  remedied  or 
obviated  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  I  do  not  believe  that  I  am  in  a  position  to  answer  that 
question  to  your  satisfaction.  We  handle  the  cars  for  the  other  roads, 
and  they  all  have  their  representatives  at  the  stock  yards.  The 
orders  are  placed  with  those  representatives  by  the  industry  desiring 
cars  to  load,  and  we  handle  them  simply  from  the  consignment  and 
carding  of  the  cars.  I  am  not  in  a  position  to  know  whether  there  is 
any  delay  or  not  in  furnishing  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  long  are  the  cars  in  your  possession  as  a  usual 
thing? 

Mr.  Earl.  You  mean  in  making  delivery  to  or  from  the  consignee  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes.  As  I  understand  it,  you  have  loaded  cars  for 
delivery  to  the  stock  yards,  and  you  take  the  empties  to  the  road  from 
which  you  receive  them. 


CAB   SHOBTA^  413 

Mr.  Eakl.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  length  of  time  elapses  between  the  time  that 
the  loaded  cars  are  placed  at  your  disjjosal  and  the  time  that  you 
place  the  empty  cars  at  tiie  disposal  of  the  originating  road? 

Mr.  Earl.  Well,  it  depends  a  good  deal  on  the  commodity  that  is 
handled. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  am  speaking  of  stock. 

Mr.  Earl.  We  don't  handle  stock.  The  various  roads  have  track- 
age rigiits  over  the  Junction  Railway  and  they  bring  the  stock  in 
and  take  the  cars  but  with  their  own  engines.  There  is  no  delay 
there. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  observed  their  movement  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  No;  I  have  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  able  to  testify  as  to  that? 

Mr.  EARii.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  As  to  the  other  commodities,  about  what  length  of 
time  are  the  cars  in  your  hands? 

Mr.  Earl.  Well,  about  50  per  cent  or  more  of  our  business  consists 
of  perishable  commodities,  and  of  course  they  are  handled  very 
promptlv — in  a  few  hours'  time. 

Mr.  AIarbi^.  How  long  a  time  elapses  with  perishable  commodi- 
ties l>etween  the  time  when  the  car  is  placed  at  the  consignee's  dis- 
posal and  the  time  when  you  get  it  back  into  your  hands  and  return 
It  to  the  originating  road? 

Mr.  Earl.  Most  of  those  cars  are  owned  by  the  industries  doing 
business  at  the  yards. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  not  feel  concerned,  then,  with  the  length  of 
time  that  is  taken  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  as  to  the  other  50  per  cent  of  your  business, 
what  does  that  consist  of  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Well,  various  commodities — coal  and  lumber. 

Mr.  Marble.  Wheat? 

Mr.  Earl.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  don't  handle  any  wheat  business! 

Mr.  Earl.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Coal  and  lumber? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  length  of  time  do  you  take  for  the  switching 
service  on  that  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Well,  it  depends  a  good  deal  on  circumstances. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  state  the  extreme  length  of  time. 

Mr.  Earl.  Of  course,  the  movement  of  stock  and  of  perishable 
freight  must  be  given  preference  in  all  cases,  and  it  is  difficult  to  say 
just  what  the  average  time  is.  I  do  not  know  that  I  ever  had  occa- 
sion to  figure  that  out. 

Commissioner  Hari^n.  How  long  have  you  been  connected  with 
your  road  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Something  over  two  3'ears.  It  may  be  proper  to  state 
to  the  Commission  that  my  duties  are  more  in  connection  with  the 
accounting  department  than  with  the  operating  department,  so  I 
am  somewhat  incompetent  to  give  the  Commission  all  the  informa- 
tion they  would  like  to  have.  Perhaps  some  other  official  of  the 
company  would  be  better. 


414  CAB   SHORT AOB. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  your  road  is  very  largely  occu- 
pied with  packing-house  business,  bringing  in  packing-house  supplies, 
and  in  taking  their  products  away  to  the  different  railroads? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  a  large  part  of  its  business,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir ;  quite  a  large  part. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  is  handled  in  private  cars  very  largely  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Why,  to  a  certain  extent ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  to  what  extent  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Well,  that  I  could  not  say. 

Mr.  Marble.  We  have  found  all  these  railroad  men  very  ready 
with  figures  of  percentages. 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes.     Well,  I  should  say  something  over  50  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  is  in  private  cars? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir.  Of  course  now  in  addition  to  serving  indus- 
tries, we  do  an  interchange  business  with  different  roads.  We  do 
not  handle  cars  to  any  extent  with  our  own  power,  but  the  roads 
make  use  of  our  tracks  in  making  their  deliveries  to  different  lines. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  business  that  is  handled  with  your  power — what 
is  that?  Is  it  largely  this  packing-house  business  that  we  have 
described  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  AVhat  per  cent  of  your  business  would  be  made  up  in 
that  way? 

Mr.  Earl.  It  is  quite  a  large  percentage ;  I  have  not  any  figures. 

Mr.  Marble.  Fifty  per  cent  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  O,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Considerably  more? 

Mr.  Earl.  Well,  I  should  say  considerably  more. 

Mr.  Marble.  Possibly  75  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Possibly  75  per  cent. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  coal  switching  that  you  do,  does  that  consist  of 
taking  reconsigned  coal  cars  from  the  railroads  entering  Chicago  and 
delivering  them  to  the  road  taking  the  coal  out  of  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  No,  sir;  we  do  not  do  any  of  that  business  to  speak  of. 
Cars  are  reconsigned  before  they  reach  us,  to  industries  in  the  stock 
yards,  and  we  deliver  to  the  industry. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  largely  a  stock-yards  business? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  and  there  is  no  reconsigning  done  at  the  yards,  or 
at  least  a  very  small  amount. 

Mr.  Marble.  "What  length  of  time  is  consumed  by  a  coal  car  taken 
to  the  stock  yards,  between  the  time  you  receive  the  car  from  the 
originating  road  and  the  time  when  you  deliver  the  empty  back  to  the 
road  which  gave  it  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Well,  I  do  not  really  know.  It  might  possibly  be  seven 
days. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  consider  that  about  the  average? 

Mr.  Earl.  I  should  say  so,  ves. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  oi  that  time  has  been  consumed  by  your 
road  as  necessary  time  for  the  performance  of  the  physical  operations 
which  it  does  perform  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Well,  I  should  say  it  would  be  four  days  on  the  average. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  to  say,  you  are  occupying  four  days  with  the 
car? 


CAB   8HORTAOB.  415 

Mr.  Earl.  I  think  possibly  that  would  be  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  if  the  consignee  holds  the  car  about  three  days 
on  the  average,  that  would  make  up  the  seven  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  as  close  an  estimate  as  I  could  make; 
and  possibly  I  have  estimated  our  own  detention  a  little  too  high. 
Maybe  the  consignees  detain  the  cars  longer  than  that,  and  I  think, 
prooably,  take  it  from  day  to  day,  it  will  average  up  about  50  per 
cent  eacli. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  it  is  about  half  and  half? 

Mr.  Earl,  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  regard  your  service  in  respect  of  time  as  sat- 
isfactory, considering  the  operations  which  you  perform,  or  do  you 
hope  to  better  that? 

Mr.  Earl.  Well,  in  dealing  with  that  situation,  we  are  doing  the 
best  we  can,  as  well  as  we  can  under  the  conditions. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  hope  to  better  the  conditions? 

Mr.  Earl.  We  do  not  feel  that  we  will  be  able  to  under  the  circum- 
stances. 

Mr.  Marble.  Under  the  circumstances? 

Mr.  Earl.  The  district  is  very  much  congested  over  there. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  not  enough  facilities  so  far  as  trackage 
room  is  concerned? 

Mr.  Earl.  It  is  the  question  of  room,  space. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  need  more  room? 

Mr.  Earl.  We  need  more  room,  and  the  industries  need  more 
room — the  industries  that  are  located  there  now.  They  have  badly 
outgrown  the  facilities  that  they  have,  or  they  have  really  outgrown 
them  to  a  great  extent. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  not  behind  in  your  work,  are  you  ? 

Mr.  Earl.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  keeping  up? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Who  owns  your  road;  is  it  owned  b^  other  railroads? 

Mr.  Earl.  I  could  not  say  who  owns  the  road ;  it  is  not  owned  by 
other  railroads. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  a  corporation,  with  individual  stockholders,  is  it? 

Mr.  Earl.  Yes,  sir. 

W.  M.  Stickney,  called  and  sworn  as  a  witness  and  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  business? 

Mr.  Stickney.  I  am  in  the  grain  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  a  grain  commission  merchant? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  With  the  firm  of  Lowell,  Hoit  &  Co.  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  especially  conversant  with  shipping  con- 
ditions throughout  the  State  of  Iowa  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Quite  well;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  traveled  in  that  State  considerably  in  the 
last  year  or  two  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  grain  business  comes  largely  from  that  State? 


416  CAB  SHOBTAOE. 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  especially  familiar  with  the  shipping  con- 
ditions which  prevail  as  to  farmers'  elevators  and  the  independent 
shippers  of  grain  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Grain  received  by  your  firm  is  largely  from  the  inde- 
pendent elevators? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  recently,  in  view  of  this  investigation, 
addressed  a  circular  letter  to  your  correspondents  in  the  State  of 
Iowa,  did  you  not? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes,  sir;  and  in  Illinois. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  of  those  letters  did  you  send  out? 

Mr.  Stickney.  We  sent  out  about  175  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  this  is  a  copy  [referring  to  a  paper  produced 
by  the  witness]  ? 

(The  same  is  hereto  attached  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1  to  Mr. 
Stickney 's  testimony.") 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  a  copy  of  the  blank  questions? 

Mr.  Marble.  This  is  the  form  that  you  sent  out  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  form. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  the  Commission  desire  to  hear  these  questions  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  might  read  the  questions;  yes. 

Mr.  Marble   (reading) : 

"  Name  of  firm  ? 

"  Where  located  ? 

"  Are  you  regularly  engaged  in  the  grain  business  ? 

"  Have  you  had  any  difficulty  in  obtaining  cars  in  which  to  ship 
grain  during  the  last  twelve  months  ? 

"  Did  you  make  every  effort  possible  during  the  time  mentioned  to 
secure  the  cars  ordered  ? 

"  What  do  you  consider  has  been  the  jfinancial  loss  to  your  company 
during  the  last  twelve  months  on  account  of  the  railroad  company 
not  furnishing,  within  a  reasonable  time  after  ordering,  an  ordinary 
number  of  cars  in  which  to  ship  grain  ? 

"  What  do  you  consider  would  have  been  the  financial  gain  to  the 
farmers  in  your  community  during  the  last  twelve  months  had  they 
not  been  prevented  by  scarcity  of  cars  from  marketing  their  grain 
when  they  desired  to  sell? 

"  Have  conditions  been  practically  the  same  at  other  stations  in 
Iowa  where  you  are  acquainted? 

"  How  much  money  have  you  lost  during  the  last  twelve  months 
on  account  of  grain  heating  in  transit  or  otherwise  deteriorating  and 
through  changes  in  the  market  because  of  the  unreasonable  delay  of 
cars  in  transit? 

"  Are  you  not  compelled  to  load  many  old  worn-out  cars  that  are 
practically  unfit  for  service,  in  order  to  get  any  grain  at  all  to  market 
at  certain  seasons  of  the  year? 

"  Do  you  think  conditions  in  regard  to  the  car  situation  will  be  any 
better  this  winter  than  last  winter  ? 

"  Are  you  in  favor  of  State  and  national  reciprocal  demurrage 
laws?" 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  replies  to  this  circular  have  you  received  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  I  have  about  150  to  175.    I  do  not  remember. 


CAB   SHOBTAOB.  417 

Mr.  Marble.  And  these  are  the  replies  [referring  to  papers  pro- 
duced by  the  witness]  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes,  sir. 

(The  same  are  attached  hereto  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  2  to  Mr. 
Stickney 's  testimony.") 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  without  stopping  to  read  these  letters,  will  you 
state  their  general  tenor — state  what  you  conclude  to  be  the  general 
answer  to  all  these  questions,  judging  by  these  175  replies? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Well,  if  I  remember  rightly — I  looked  over  them 
hastily — there  were  about  35  of  these  that  replied,  or  perhaps  40, 
that  were  located  at  junction  points,  who  said  that  the  loss  on  ac- 
count of  not  being  supplied  with  the  ordinary  amount  of  equip- 
ment in  which  to  ship  grain  was  small.  The  balance  of  them,  some- 
thing like  100  in  number,  or  more,  placed  their  loss  at  from  $iiOO 
to  $10,000;  a  number  of  them  at  $5,000,  and  a  good  many  of  them  at 
$3,000,  and  a  good  many  of  them  at  $1,000.  Jiist  what  the  percent- 
al was  I  do  not  know.  I  looked  over  them  very  hastily,  as  they 
did  not  come  in  till  yesterday,  or  the  day  before.  A  very  large  num- 
ber of  them  have  lost  money  on  account  of  grain  heating  in  transit 
and  bein^  a  very  long  time  on  the  road. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Just  what  is  that — ^grain  heating  in 
transit — what  causes  it;    do  you  know? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Well,  you  take  it  at  this  time  of  the  year — and  corn 
is  a  perishable  commodity,  almost  as  much  so  as  fruit,  you  might 
say.  ^^^len  you  take  a  car  of  grain,  and  ship  it  from  central  Iowa, 
or  a  car  of  corn  at  this  time  of  the  year,  and  let  it  be  on  the  road  ten 
or  fifteen  or  twenty  or  twenty-five  days,  it  is  very  likely  to  heat  in 
transit. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  is  it  affected  by  the  moisture  of  the 
atmosphere,  or  is  it  just  the  natural  tendency  of  the  corn? 

Mr.  Stickney.  It  is  the  natural  tendency  of  the  corn  at  this  time 
of  the  year  after  being  shut  up  so  long  in  a  box  car. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Would  it  do  the  same  thing  in  an  elevator? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes;  to  a  great  extent  it  would;  it  would  do  the 
same  thing  in  an  elevator. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  it  a  sort  of  process  of  fermentation? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Well,  no;  I  do  not  know  as  it  is  that.  Of  course, 
oats  have  a  sweat  to  go  through,  you  know  that,  and  you  have  to  deal 
with  it,  and  after  you  get  them  into  a  bin  they  have  to  go  through 
that  sweat  and  always  come  out  better  on  that  account.  A  car  of  oats 
will  very  often  heat  in  transit,  but  if  thev  are  left  in  the  car  until 
they  are  through  the  sweat  it  does  not  do  tliem  very  much  harm ;  but 
you  start  corn  either  in  an  elevator  or  in  a  car  to  heating,  and  it  is 
almost  impossible  to  ever  cool  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  It  destroys  the  value  completely? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Oh,  no;  but  to  a  great  extent — from  4  to  15  cents 
a  bushel.  I  think  Mr.  Marble  has  a  statement  there,  which  I  pre- 
pared last  winter  when  we  had  the  reciprocal  demurrage  bill  before 
the  legislature  in  Iowa.  At  that  time,  for  300  cars  of  corn  ship|>ed 
in  January  last  to  reach  destination  here,  I  prepared  a  statement 
for  the  committee.  I  handed  the  statement  to  Mr.  Marble  this  morn- 
ing.    It  is  the  same  statement  that  I  prepared  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  is  the  statement,  but  I  am  afraid  you  will  not 
S.  Doc.  333, 5»-2 21 


418  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

impress  the  Commission  very  much  with  it.  They  have  been  get- 
ting statements  from  the  Northwest  that  are  so  much  worse  that  this 
looks  mild. 

Mr.  Stickney.  Well,  no;  perhaps  it  may  not  impress  them  very 
much,  but  from  this  statement  you  will  find  that  a  great  many  of  the 
cars  arrived  here — that  is  quite  a  number  of  them — in  four,  five  and 
six  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Coming  what  distance? 

Mr.  Stickney.  About  300  miles,  from  central  Iowa,  which  is 
very  good  time  indeed.  Nobody  could  complain  of  that.  It  seems 
to  me  that  a  car  of  grain  should  come  in  six  days  at  least  from  cen- 
tral Iowa,  when  they  bring  a  great  many  of  them  in  two  days;  but 
you  will  find  in  this  statement  that  there  are  several  cars  that  it  took 
twenty-seven  days  to  bring.  There  are  others  that  it  took  twenty- 
two  days,  and  others  twenty. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  percentage  of  those  cars  took  over  ten  days? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Well,  I  should  think  over  half  of  them  at  least 
were  over  ten  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  is  too  long  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Well,  that  is  too  long  certainly;  there  can  be  no 
question  about  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  examined  the  answers  to  your  question  on 
the  reciprocal  demurrage  proposition? 

Mr.  Stickney.  I  glanced  at  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  looked  at  several  of  them,  and  I  find  as  I 
look  at  them  now,  that  the  writers  were  not  content  with  saying 
"  yes,"  but  they  put  it  in  such  words  as  "  unequivocally,  yes." 

Mr.  Stickney.  The  grain  shippers  of  this  country  are  unanimously 
in  favor  of  a  reciprocal  demurrage  law  of  some  kind,  and  I  guess  all 
the  shippers  are  in  the  same  way  of  thinking. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  in  the  hope  that  it  will  be  the  means  of  creating 
an  income,  but  in  the  hope  that  it  will  be  the  means  of  getting  trans- 
portation facilities? 

Mr,  Stickney.  Not  at  all  as  an  income,  but  with  the  hope  of  get- 
ting facilities.  There  are  a  number  of  letters  there,  Mr.  Marble, 
which  state  that  the  companies  have  lost  five  thousand  dollars  in  the 
last  twelve  months  and  it  is  not  just  the  bare  statement.  *  You  will 
find  letters  there  in  connection  with  the  statement,  showing  that  they 
lost  it,  and  how  they  lost  it,  and  where  the  money  went. 

Mr.  Marble.  Here  is  a  letter  received  from  Mr.  Messerole.  Mr. 
Messerole  is  secretary  of  the  Farmers  and  Grain  Dealers'  Association 
of  Iowa,  is  he  not  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  reference  to  these  grain  dealers,  he  holds  a  position 
corresponding  to  that  held  by  Mr.  Wells  to  the  regular  grain  dealers  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  he  is  in  touch  with  the  conditions  at  a  great 
many  points? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes ;  he  is. 

Mr.  Marble.  He  says : 

I  have  your  favor  of  the  13th  instant,  relative  to  the  condition  of  car  service 
at  our  station  and  others  in  Iowa.  Will  say  that  we  are  not  troubled  much 
about  obtaining  cars,  such  as  they  are.  Many  of  the  cars  set  In  for  us  to  load 
are  only  fit  for  the  coal  service  or  the  scrap  pile. 

We  are  located  at  a  junction  point  and  it  is  therefore  competitive.    Thjg 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  419 

would  be  no  bad  sample  of  the  conditions  in  Iowa,  which  are,  and  have  always 
been,  bad  for  fifteen  years.  Heretofore  the  railroads  have  told  the  shipi»ers  that 
tliey  could  take  care  of  the  grain,  except  in  cases  of  extraordinary  movement. 
Let  us  see  how  they  have  done  so.  Iowa  had  this  year  just  a  nuxlerate  crop.  It 
Is  hardly  up  to  the  average.  From  the  time  its  crop  of  oats  was  harvested  there 
began  a  very  modenite  and  steady  movement.  Weather  conditions  were  ideal 
for  railroads  to  work,  and  yet  in  ten  days  time  from  tlie  time  the  movement 
began  the  sliip|>er8  began  to  be  tied  up  for  want  of  cars,  and  this  condition  has 
continued  up  to  the  present  time,  with  the  exception  that  now  that  as  the  move- 
ment is  t>e<-oniing  greater.  It  is  gn)wlng  worse. 

An  appeal  to  the  conmilssn)ner8  of  the  State  results  In  the  astonishing  reply 
that  the  railroads  are  doing  the  best  they  can.  The  railroads  themselves  make 
no  denial  of  the  fact  of  the  shortage,  but  say  that  they  arc  doing  their  best. 

Investigations  that  I  have  made,  in  cimnection  with  my  duties  as  secretary  of 
the  Farmers  and  Grain  Dealers'  Association,  disclosed  the  fact  that  the  rail- 
mads  discriminate  in  favor  of  comi>etltive  jwints  constantly.  As  I  have  said 
before,  we  seldom  have  any  trouble  alK)ut  cars,  but  that  Is  owing  to  the  fact  that 
we  are  a  comi>etlng  point,,  and  we  have  more  trouble  about  our  grain  Injing 
delayed  in  transit,  as  all  the  shippers  will  tell  you. 

I  am  of  the  opinion  that  Federal  laws  in  connection  with  State  laws  will  be 
the  only  means  of  relieving  the  situation.  No  one  at  all  ix)stetl  In  these  matters 
will  say  that  the  transi)ortatlon  c<mipanles  are  not  doing  the  lu^t  they  can  with 
the  equipment  they  have  to  handle  the  business,  but  they  are  simply  figuring 
from  their  own  standix)lnt  with  a  view  to  dividends. 

This  means  that  It  Is  to  their  Interests  to  spread  this  volume  of  business  out 
during  the  entire  year.  I  have  hundretls  of  letters  to  testify  to  loss«'s  nnming 
Into  the  thou.><ands  of  dollars  on  account  of  the  lack  of  cars  in  which  to  load 
grain.  I>ast  winter  I  learned  of  many  instan<-es  where  grain  a<-tually  burntKl  up 
In  the  elevators  while  waiting  for  cars  to  move  It.  An<»ther  very  liii])iirtant 
tiling  In  c<innectlon  with  the  car  situation  Is  this:  Ship|H>rs  at  the  sain«'  phu-e 
sh<»uid  l>e  supplliHi  with  as  nearly  as  possible  the  same  proportion  of  cars  as 
they  use  when  there  Is  no  shortage.  If  that  is  not  done  you  can  readily  see 
that  the  carriers  are  able  to  force  grain  buyers  to  pool  receipts. 

Mr.  Marble.  Generally  speaking,  that  i.s  the  substance  of  the.se 
letters — that  the  writers  have  great  difficulty  in  getting  cars,  and  that 
if  they  do  get  the  cars  they  are  not  fit  for  the  loading  of  grain,  and 
that  they  are  not  getting  good  service  and  have  suffered  losses,  and 
they  are  all  in  favor  of  reciprocal  demurrage? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes;  that  is  the  substance  of  them.  The  letters 
which  I  sent  out  are  addressed  to  people  who  are  scattered  along  the 
line  of  every  railroad,  in  nearly  every  county  of  the  grain  belts  of 
Iowa  and  Illinois,  and  the  replied  thereto  are  representative  of  the 
conditions  throughout  the  country. 

Mr.  M.vRBLE.  Do  these  shippers  at  all  concur  in  reporting  condi- 
tions better  at  competitive  points  than  at  noncompetitive  points? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes;  they  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  it  your  personal  observation  that  conditions  at 
such  points  are  better? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes ;  it  is. 

Mr.  M.\rble.  Uniformly? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Almost. 

(The  above  letter  from  C.  G.  Massorole,  of  Gowrie,  Iowa,  is  re- 
ceived in  evidence  and  marked  as  an  exhibit  to  Mr.  Stickney's 
te.stimony.) 

Mr.  M.\RBLE.  Mr.  Stickney 'draws  attention  to  a  letter  from  the 
Seneca  Grain  and  Lumber  Company,  at  Seneca,  111.,  under  date  of 
Decemln'r  14,  which  .says,  in  part: 

Knowing  that  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  Is  to  give  a  hearing  In 
your  city  in  the  near  future,  and  having  many  grievances  and  much  financial 
loss  because  of  the  shortage  of  cars,  we  request  you  to  present  our  petition,  witb 


420  CAS  Shortage. 

the  hope  that  some  means  may  be  devised  that  will  Improve  the  conditions  that 
now  exist. 

We  have  grain  in  our  elevator  on  the  Big  Four  which  was  brought  last  Seiv 
tember  on  which  there  Is  now  a  loss  of  at  least  8  cents  a  bushel,  because  it  could 
Hot  be  moved  to  market  in  proi)er  time.  Grain  in  our  Stockdale  elevator  on  the 
^ock  Island  road,  bought  In  Augnst  and  September,  remaiued  in  the  elevator 
for  more  than  two  months,  because  we  could  not  get  cars  to  move  it.  and  caused 
a  great  loss.  Conditions  at  each  of  these  two  stations  have  practically  put 
them  out  of  business  entirely,  as  grain  can  not  be  bought  where  there  is  no 
assurance  of  having  it  moved  to  market.  At  Seneca  our  elevator  was  filled  with 
grain  that  was  sold  to  go  on  the  Septenil)cr  market  in  Chicago,  hut  bivausc  of 
car  shortage  v^-e  had  to  carry  it  into  October  at  a  loss.  Insurance  had  to  be 
carried  on  all  grain  In  elevatoi-s,  and  that  has  occasioned  some  loss.  The  farm- 
ers tributai^  to  our  station  could  not  deliver  their  grain,  and  were  comi)elltHl  to 
hold  at  least  200,000  busbels  of  com,  which  meant  a  large  loss  to  them,  and 
some  of  their  com  is  not  delivered  yet  and  can  not  be  till  room  Is  made  for  It  iu 
the  elevator  by  shipment.  The  new  corn  is  about  to  move  North,  and  we  have 
ho  prospect  of  relief  in  sight.     We  dread  the  future. 

(The  same  is  hereto  annexed  and  marked  as  an  exhibit  to  Mr. 
Stickney's  testimony.) 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  there  any  other  letters  to  which  you  wish  to 
direct  attention? 

Mr.  Sticknsy.  No;  but  you  might  look  at  the  loss  which  they 
claim  to  have  sustained.    It  is  only  a  sample  of  the  entire  matter. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  elevator  at  Seneca,  111.,  claims  its  loss  has  not 
been  less  than  $5,000,  for  three  stations.  That  is  the  loss  to  the  com- 
pany. Asked  what  the  financial  gain  to  the  fanners  would  amount 
to  during  the  last  twelve  months  if  they  had  not  been  prevented 
from  marketing  their  grain,  their  aiiswer  is  "  Not  less  than  ten 
thousand  dollars." 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  recently  been  over  the  terri- 
tory covered  by  these  letters? 

Mr.  Stickxey.  Not  all  of  it;  but  I  have  some  two  or  three  times 
within  the  last  twelve  months. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  In  the  last  three  months  have  you  been 
over  any  portion  of  this  territory? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes;  probably  half  of  it,  or  perhaps  two-thirds. 
We  are  in  daily  communication  with  practically  two  hundred  ship- 
pers in  Illinois  and  in  Iowa.  I  myself  am  in  daily  communication 
with  them. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Of  course,  then,  you  have  an  opportunity 
to  observe  some  of  these  conditions? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes;  we  know  the  conditions  at  practically  every 
station. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  you  say  that  these  letters  fairly  rep- 
resent the  conditions  at  the  respective  stations  from  which  they 
come? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes;  I  consider  that  they  do;  and  I  can  say  that 
the  companies  and  the  men  who  have  signed  these  statements  and 
have  written  these  letters  are  personally  known  to  me.  I  am  person- 
ally acquainted  with  them,  and  I  consider  them  very  reliable,  and 
I  consider  them  to  be  men  who  are  w  holly  responsible  business  men. 
Those  are  the  authors  of  these  letters  which  are  attached  to  very 
nearly  every  one  of  these  statements.  The  letters  are  really  directed 
to  the  Commission.  Of  course  they  were  written  to  our  firm,  but 
with  the  understanding  that  they  were  to  be  delivered  to  the  Commis- 
sion.   They  did  not  direct  them  to  the  Conuuission,  but  they  knew 


CAB   SnORTAGB.  421 

(hat  you  were  to  be  here,  and  the  letters  were  written  really  to  vou, 
and  should  have  l)een  addressed  to  you  instead  of  to  the  firm.  There 
is  a  letter  attaclied  to  practically  every  statement  that  was  sent  in, 
and  some  of  them  are  very  interesting  indeed. 

I  will  say  further  that  you  can  go  down  there  in  Illinois  to  any 
station  to-day,  and  there  is  hardly  a  section  where  the  cars  are  ob- 
tained at  all,  but  what  the  grain  men  are  buying  the  cars  as  they 
come  along,  and  paying  money  for  them  in  order  to  get  the  cars. 

Commissioner  Harlax.  Does  that  mean  that  the  farmer  or  the 
elevator  man  pays  the  agent  something  for  the  cars? 

Mr.  Stickney.  No;  he  pays  the  brakeman  or  the  conductor.  One 
of  the  largest  grain  shippers  in  Illinois  was  in  our  office  yesterday, 
and  he  made  the  renuuk  that  he  had  practically  exhausted  the 
turkey  supply  of  eastern  Illinois  by  buying  those  birds  and  pre- 
senting them  to  traveling  freitjht  agents  and  conductors  and  brake- 
men.  j»nd  such  as  that.  I  asked  him  why  he  did  not  pay  them  money, 
and  stop  this  buying  of  turkeys,  and  he  said  that  he  knew  it  was 
better  to  give  a  turkey  to  each  one  of  them — that  it  was  l)etter  to 
do  that  than  to  give  them  money.  He  mentioned  one  of  his  stations 
up  above  there,  and  he  said  that  week  before  last  he  told  them  that 
he  would  give  them  $1  a  car,  and  he  said  that  last  week.  The  next 
week  he  raised  it  to  $2,  and  was  receiving  quite  a  numlier  of  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Paying  the  money  to  the  railroad  employees? 

Mr,  Stickney.  Ves;  paying  the  money  to  the  railroad  employees, 
and  the  practice  is  general  all  over  the  State  of  Illinois.  I  can  name 
vou  fifty  grain  dealers  that  have  paid  this  money,  and  are  paying 
It,  if  tlu'V  can  get  cars,  practically  every  day.  When  this  came  up 
here  U'fore  I  mentioned  to  several  of  them  to  come  up  here  and 
testify  in  regard  to  it,  but  they  are  very  backward  about  mentioning 
it  or  giving  their  names,  or  having  their  names  mentioned  in  con- 
nection with  it,  but  it  is  a  general  practice  just  the  same. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  offer  this  table  prepared  by  Mr.  Stickney. 
D(K»s  this  show  all  the  shipments  of  grain  from  Iowa  in  January, 
190G,  to  your  firm  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  That  is,  every  car;  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  selected  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Not  at  all,  but  it  happened  to  be  for  that  month, 
because  it  was  in  February  that  we  presented  this  bill  to  the  legisla- 
ture in  Des  Moines,  and  the  statement  was  prepared  for  that  month 
because  that  was  the  month  before — January.  I  have  not  made  out 
any  new  one:  this  is  the  one  that  was  made  out  then. 

Sir.  Marble.  I  will  offer  this  without  stopping  to  read  it.  It 
shows,  as  stated  by  Mr.  Stickney,  the  station  from  which  the  car  was 
shipped,  the  date  it  was  received,  and  the  numln'r  of  days  it  was  in 
transit. 

(Same  is  received  in  evidence  and  marked  as  an  exhibit  to  Mr. 
Stickney's  testimony.) 

Commissioner  Lane.  Put  in  all  of  those  letters  as  exhibits. 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes;  I  will  do  that.  There  are  many  details  con- 
tained in  the.se  letters  which  shoidd  be  read. 

Mr.  Stickney.  They  are  all  along  the  same  lines.  Some  of  them 
describe  conditions  as  being  a  little  different.  For  instance,  there  is 
a  statement  from  Palmer,  Iowa,  which  we  received  yesterday.  The 
gentleman  claims  that  it  is  a  common  practice  in  Iowa  to  discrim- 


422  CAK   SHORTAGE. 

inate  in  favor  of  certain  stations.  He  says  that  at  Palmer,  ToAva, 
there  are  two  elevators,  one  of  them  owned  by  the  farmers,  and  just 
below  there  is  a  small  town  with  an  elevator,  and  the  elevator  at  that 
town  is  owned  by  a  line  company.  He  says  they  are  able  to  get  all 
the  cars  at  that  town  practically  that  they  want,  and  that  conse- 
quently the  grain  is  going  away  from  Palmer  and  that  vicinity  to 
the  other  elevator  every  day.  They  are  unable  to  get  any  at  Palmer. 
At  this  town,  in  which  there  is  only  one  elevator  owned  by  a  line 
company,  they  are  able  to  get  all  the  cars  they  desire. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  any  of  those  letters  refer  to  any  prac- 
tice in  Iowa,  such  as  you  have  mentioned  ? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Of  that  kind  ? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  No;  of  paying  for  cars? 

Mr.  Stickney.  No. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Or  in  Illinois? 

Mr.  Stickney.  No;  the  man  that  pays  that  will  not  mention  it  in 
any  letter.     He  is  not  telling  it  to  the  general  run  of  people. 

Mr.  Marble.  For  the  very  evident  reason  that  he  would  make  him- 
self so  unpopular  with  the  people  from  whom  he  gets  the  cars  tliat 
he  would  not  get  any  at  all. 

Mr.  Stickney.  Yes;  he  would  be  cut  off  entirely  if  he  did  that. 
He  would  not  be  able  to  get  any  cars  if  he  gave  this  matter  aw\iy, 
and  told  what  conductor  he  paid  the  money  to.  He  would  be  shut 
off  entirely. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  it  is  not  at  all  supposed,  Mr.  Stickney,  that  this 
form  of  extortion  goes  into  the  general  offices  of  the  railroad  com- 
panies, or  is  any  part  of  the  railroad  policy? 

Mr.  Stickney.  Oh,  I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  not  even  suspected,  is  it? 

Mr.  Stickney.  No  ;  not  at  all. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  understood  that  to  be  Mr.  Stickney's 
meaning. 

Mr.  Stickney.  Of  course,  if  you  take  this  matter  up  with  the  gen- 
eral offices,  they  will  make  a  great  big  bluff,  as  they  always  do.  and 
want  to  know  the  name  of  the  conductor  and  say  that  they  are  going 
to  fire  him,  and  all  that;  but  they  know  that  the  practice  is  going  on 
just  the  same.  Not  that  they  believe  in  it,  or  have  upheld  it  in  any 
wa}'^,  shape,  or  manner,  but  simply  that  they  can  not  prevent  it. 
They  can  not  get  rid  of  it,  and  that  is  all  there  is  to  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  will  offer  these  letters  for  the  subsequent  examina- 
tion of  the  Commission  for  what  they  show.  I  have  nothing  more  to 
ask,  unless  there  is  something  that  you  wish  to  say  in  addition. 

Mr.  Stickney.  No;  I  guess  there  is  nothing  more  with  which  to 
take  up  the  time  of  the  Commission.  I  simply  want  to  emphasize, 
though,  before  I  leave  the  stand,  that  the  shipping  public  (as  the 
Commissioners,  of  course,  know)  are  in  favor  or  some  measure  that 
will  compel  the  railroad  companies  to  furnish  them  with  a  fair  and 
reasonable  amount  of  equipment.  I  believe  that  the  only  thing  that 
will  bring  that  about  (and  so  do  these  shippers  believe)  is  a  measure 
which  will  penalize  the  railroad  company  for  failure  to  furnish  this 
equipment  within  a  reasonable  len^h  of  time  after  it  is  ordered  ;  that 
that  is  the  only  thing  that  will  bring  the  desired  result.  That  seems 
to  be  their  contention. 


CAB  SHOBTAOE.  423 

Commissioner  Harl.an.  Well,  you  heard  what  Mr.  Kruttschnitt 
said  this  afternoon  ? 

Afr.  Stickxey.  I  do  not  think  I  did.  I  did  hear  part  of  it,  but  he 
fpoke  very  low,  and  I  could  not  catch  all  that  he  said. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  he  made  the  ar^iment  that  it  would 
be  unfair  to  impose  a  demurrage  upon  the  railroads  if  they  were 
compelled  to  let  the  cars  go  off  tlieir  own  tracks,  because  they  might 
deplete  their  own  supply  of  cars  on  account  of  not  being  able  to  get 
the  cars  back.  That,  in  that  way,  they  would  e.xhaust  their  own  sup- 
ply of  cars,  and  so  it  would  practically  penalize  them  for  furnishing 
facilities  for  distant  business — through  business. 

Mr.  Stickney.  I  think — and  I  believe  that  you  will  agree  with 
me — that  when  they  are  penalized  for  this  they  will  look  out  for  it 
themselves.  They  will  see  that  the  freight  trains  are  moved  and  that 
the  cai*s  are  handled  promptly.  If  there  is  any  occasion  for  it,  they 
will  st'e  that  there  is  no  congestion,  and  I  believe  that  they  are  able  to 
do  it  and  will  do  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  suppose  that  a  railroad  in  Galveston 
takes  freight  for  Boston  and  it  goes  oflf  the  line  of  the  railroad  at 
Fort  Worth  or  St^  I^ouis  and  goes  to  other  railroads  and  they  keep 
the  car  up  in  New  England.  That  is  done  to  such  an  extent  that  the 
number  of  cars  they  have  down  in  Texas  becomes  very  seriously 
reduced.  Should  they  have  enough  cars  in  Texas  to  supply  the 
demand  of  the  New  England  people,  who  don't  provide  themselves 
with  a  sufficiency  of  cars? 

Mr.  Stickney.  No;  I  don't  think  so;  but  I  am  of  the  idea  that 
your  investigation  will  develoj)  the  fact  that  nearly  all  the  Western 
roads  have  enough  foreign  c«i-s  to  amount  to  a  numl)er  equal  to  the 
number  of  their  own  which  is  upon  foreign  rails — that  is,  if  it  pro- 
ceeds that  far.     I  think  you  will  find  that  it  averages  up  pretty  well. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Some  of  them  have  more  than  that  number. 

Mr.  Stickney,  Yes;  I  suppose  that  is  true  of  some  of  the  lines, 
but  the  average  will  be  about  as  I  say. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  do  not  think  we  have  found  any  road 
yet  that  has  now  any  more  cars  than 

Mr.  Stickney.  AVell,  yes;  the  Illinois  Central.  I  judge  of  the 
Illinois  Central  from  their  testimony  here  this  afternoon. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  The  Pennsylvania  Railroad  claims  that 
about  two-thirds  of  its  cars  are  ott"  its  lines,  and  they  claim,  too,  that 
these  Western  roads  are  very  wicked  people,  and  take  everthing  that 
they  can  get  hold  of, 

Mr.  Stickney.  I  think  they  will  fix  up  some  such  system  as  one  of 
the  gf'ntlemen  testified  to  this  afternoon,  when  he  mentioned  some  sort 
of  a  clearing  house,  or  some  arrangement  by  which  the  cars  of  all 
roads  will  be  fairly  and  equitably  distributed.  I  think  they  will  be 
hurried  along  to  that  very  much  if  they  are  penalized  to  a  certain  ex- 
tent.   I  do  not  mean  to  suggest  anything  unfair  or  unjust. 

(The  witness  was  excusedr) 

J.  E.  Defebauoh,  called  as  a  witness  and  being  duly  sworn,  was  ex- 
amined and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 
Mr.  Defebaugh.  Yes,  sir. 


424  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  nre  editor  of  the  American  Lumberman? 

Mr.  Defebauoh.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  a  trade  paper  published  for  the  benefit  of  the 
lumber  interests  of  the  entire  United  States,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  subscribers  number  several  thousand  manufac- 
turers of  lumber  and  dealers  in  lumber  ? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  recently  been  making  an  investigation  into 
shipping  conditions  as  the  lumbermen  find  them? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  By  personal  interviews? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  also  by  correspondence  ? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  have  some  of  that  correspondence  with  you  ? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  First,  I  will  ask  you  to  state  generally  what  the  ship- 
ping conditions  are,  so  far  as  the  furnishing  of  transportation  facil- 
ities to  lumber  manufacturers  is  concerned? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Well,  they  are  very  much  harassed  because  of 
their  inability  to  secure  cars,  from  the  Atlantic  to  the  Pacific. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  conditions  are  about  the  same  in  all  sections? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Yes,  sir;  from  Maine  to  Florida,  Florida  to 
Texas,  and  all  along  the  Pacific  coast. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  special  point  to  direct  attention  to  in 
reference  to  that  matter? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  I  was  invited  to  come  here  this  morning,  and 
hence  last  evening  I  dictated  a  brief  statement,  predicated  on  about 
250  letters  and  200  telegrams,  which  I  have  received,  all  within  ten 
days,  bearing  on  this  subject,  and  I  selected  a  few  of  those  letters — 
important  extracts  from  them — bearing  on  the  situation,  which  I 
have  copied  off  and  assorted. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  statement,  then,  would  be  a  summing  up  of  all 
that  correspondence? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  That  would  cover  it  generally. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  read  the  statement. 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  I  will  have  to  be  somewhat  personal  in  the  man- 
ner in  which  I  give  it,  because  it  is,  in  a  measure,  connected  with  the 
reciprocal  demurrage  proposition  chiefly,  in  which  I  am  very  much 
interested.     The  statement  is  as  follows : 

My  time  has  been  verj-^  limited  since  invited  by  the  representatives 
of  the  Commission  to  appear  here  to-day,  to  testify  of  my  own  knowl- 
edge and  on  information  which  has  come  into  my  possession  regard- 
ing the  car  shortage  and  matters  pertaining  thereto.  As  editor  of 
the  American  Lumberman,  I  am  closely  in  touch  with  the  lumber 
business  and  intimately  acquainted  with  many  engaged  in  it  in  all 
parts  of  the  country.  I  have  had  many  complaints  this  year,  and 
especially  during  the  last  three  months,  of  inability  to  move  lumber, 
and  I  recently  consulted  a  number  of  lumbermen  as  to  wliether  any- 
thing could  be  done  at  this  time  to  focus  sentiment  looking  toward 
legislation  which  might,  in  the  future  at  least,  remedy  existing  evils. 

After  this  conference  I  sent  telegrams  to  150  luml)ermen  represent- 
ing the  manufacturing,  wholesaling,  and  retailing  departments  of  the 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  425 

business,  referring  to  tho  r^vnnvn:  cir  sliortapo.  inrroasing  in  sevority 
year  by  year  until  it  threatens  the  prosperity  of  the  country.  I  also 
referred  to  the  fact  that  in  this  matter  the  customers  of  the  rail- 
roads have  inadequate  remedy  for  inconvenience  and  damage;  that 
a  national  denuirrage  law  which  should  imi)ose  penalties  u^x)n  the 
railroads  as  well  as  their  customers  for  unreasonable  delay  m  han- 
dling cars  gave  promise  of  being  an  equitable  means  of  relief,  and 
suggesting  a  national  conference,  to  be  called  for  the  first  week  of 
January,  and  asking  for  wire  responses,  giving  the  opinions  of  the 
recipients  of  the  inquiry.  Hy  noon  of  the  following  day  I  had  heard 
from  over  100  of  the  leading  representatives  of  the  lumber  trade, 
situated  in  thirty  States,  nearly  all  of  whom  were  in  favor  of  such 
a  convention. 

Consequently,  under  date  of  December  13,  I  issued  a  call,  as  an 
unofficial  representative  of  the  lumber  trade,  which  call  was  addressed 
"  to  carload  shipwrs  under  commodity  rates  and  to  receivei*s  of 
freight  so  shipped,  and  especially  to  associations  whose  members  are 
of  these  classes,"  asking  them  to  meet  in  a  "national  reciprocal  car 
demurrage  convention^'  in  Chicago  on  Friday,  Januarv  4,  1907, 
to  discuss  the  present  car-service  situation,  its  causes  and  remedies, 
and.  if  its  memlx^rs  should  so  decide,  to  devise  and  arrange  for  pres- 
entation to  Congress  an  amendment  to  the  interstate-connnerce  law, 
which  should  provide  for  just  and  reasonable  reciprocal  demurrage. 
A  copy  of  the  call  is  attached  hereto.  At  the  same  time  I  invited 
comments  from  the  trade,  and  brought  the  matter  to  the  attention  of 
coal,  grain,  and  other  important  shipping  interests. 

Since  that  time  I  have  received  hundreds  of  messages  and  letters 
on  this  subject;  many  of  them  are  mere  indorsements  of  the  general 
proposition,  many  give  statements  as  to  the  situation  in  various  sec- 
tions in  general  terms,  while  others  go  into  detail,  and  some  suggest 
various  phases  of  the  matter  that  should  be  considered  in  arriving 
at  a  solution  of  the  serious  problem  that  confronts  us.  Some  of  these 
letters  I  have  had  copied  in  order  to  show  the  seriousness  of  the 
present  situation,  the  support  that  has  already  been  given  this  move- 
ment, and  the  various  phases  pointed  out. 

Every  customer  of  the  railroads,  whether  he  be  a  shipper  or  receiver 
of  freight,  in  large  amounts  or  small,  is  entitled  to  consideration,  but 
the  luml>er  industry  is  an  especial  sufferer  as  a  result  of  ])resent  con- 
ditions. That  the  luml)er  industry  produces  in  itself  a  problem  of 
magnitude  is  shown  by  the  estimate  that  the  product  of  11)05.  on  a 
conservative  basis,  required  for  its  movement  approxinuitely  2,380,000 
cars.  Practically  the  entire  output  of  the  sawmills  of  the  United 
States  is  loaded  on  cars  for  shipment  in  one  stage  or  other  of  its  j)rog- 
ress  from  mill  to  consumer,  the  onses  in  which  the  movement  is  en- 
tirely by  water  or  directly  from  mill  to  consumer  by  wagon  probably 
lieing  compensated  for  by  the  double  use  of  cars  when  a  water  route 
intervenes  between  two  rail  routes,  as  is  often  the  case  on  the  great 
lakes  and  sometimes  on  the  principal  rivers  of  the  country. 

Estimating  the  average  rate  at  '20  cents  a  hundred  pounds  and  the 
av<'rage  weight  of  luinl)er  at  2,500  pounds  to  the  thousand  feet,  the 
railroads  have  a  revenue  from  this  traffic  of  $174,975,000 — a  little 
less  than  they  derive  from  the  transportation  of  corn,  but  more  than 
double  their  earnings  from  any  other  product  of  the  soil.  Lumber  is 
an  important  commodity  not  only  in  respect  to  its  volume,  as  esti- 


426  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

mated  by  weight,  but  from  the  fact  that  it  is  a  raw  material  in  prac- 
tically every  industry.  If  it  is  not  used  in  construction  it  is  used 
in  crating  and  packing.  It  employs  a  capital  of  over  $700,000,000 
and  employs  about  450,000  men  in  various  capacities,  with  probably 
as  many  more  concerned  in  industries  which  may  be  considered 
branches  or  are  directly  dependent  upon  the  lumber  industry. 

This  great  business  is  peculiarly  situated  in  respect  to  the  trans- 
portation systems  of  the  country.  The  greater  portion  of  the  traffic 
which  it  furnishes  is  interstate.  It  originates  largely  at  isolated  local 
points  with  a  distribution,  in  the  main,  not  to  centers  of  trade,  but 
almost  directly  to  consumers,  whether  located  in  the  great  cities,  in 
the  small  cities  and  country  towns,  or  on  the  farms.  It  is  a  com- 
modity which  the  railroads  consider  "  dead  freight,"  and  is  not  con- 
sidered subject  to  damage  by  delay  in  transit,  although,  as  a  matter  of 
fact,  the  loss  occasioned  to  the  lumber  trade  by  inadequate  car 
service,  causing  deterioration  of  the  value  of  lumber  awaiting  ship- 
ment or  in  transit,  reaches  into  the  millions  of  dollars.  But,  looking 
at  this  commodity  as  they  do,  the  railroads  give  preference  to  perish- 
able commodities — in  many  cases  rightly  enough — and  in  the  second 
place  to  commodities  like  grain  and  cotton,  which  have  definite  sea- 
sons for  their  movement ;  although  lumbermen  claim  that  it  would, 
in  the  long  run,  be  better  for  the  railroads,  for  grain  men,  and  for 
cotton  growers,  if  the  marketing  of  those  great  products  of  the  soil 
were  forced  to  be  distributed  over  a  greater  period  of  time  and  thus 
interfere  less  with  an  all  the  year  round  business  like  lumber. 

Lumbermen  have  become  accustomed  in  the  north  to  a  car  shortage 
during  the  grain  shipping  season  and  in  the  south  during  the  season 
for  marketing  cotton.  This  shortage  recurs  annually,  but  it  hak  be- 
come more  acute  of  recent  years  until  now  all  through  the  year  lum- 
ber has  suffered  from  the  inability  or  unwillingness  of  the  railroads 
to  move  it  promptly,  while  during  the  last  few  months  the  situation 
has  amounted  to  a  partial  embargo,  with  some  sections  almost  abso- 
lutely precluded  from  doing  business.  The  most  acute  difficulty  is 
in  the  far  west,  but  the  southern  situation  is  almost  as  bad. 

I  am  not  exaggerating  when  I  say  that  there  are  hundreds  of  sub- 
stantial concerns  of  fair  financial  strength  that  are,  if  the  present 
condition  continues,  in  danger  of  bankruptcy.  Many  of  them,  besides 
their  heavy  cash  investments,  have  purchased  timber  on  which  they 
have  to  make  regular  payments.  Their  operating  expenses  are  large, 
and,  with  their  income  cut  in  two,  it  is  only  by  the  grace  of  their 
creditors  and  the  generous  assistance  of  the  banks  that  they  are  able 
to  continue,  and  there  is  a  limit  to  such  grace  and  to  such  assistance. 

I^et  me  say  further  in  this  connection,  as  is  pointed  out  in  some  of 
the  letters  I  lay  before  you,  that  it  is  well-nigh  impossible  to  shut 
down  a  sawmill  entirely  or  to  curtail  the  product  to  a  sufficient  extent 
to  compensate  for  such  a  shortage  of  shipping  ability  as  now  exists. 
Most  mills  are  located  away  from  the  centers  of  population;  they  are 
built  in  the  woods,  so  to  speak,  and  around  them  are  built  towns  com- 
posed of  people  whose  livelihood  is  derived  almost  exclusively  from 
them.  It  is  not  an  easy  matter  to  collect  a  satisfactory  mill  crew  in 
such  situations,  and  to  shut  down  the  mills  means  a  scattering  of  the 
crew  and  the  demoralization  of  the  business  for  a  considerable  period, 
to  say  nothing  of  the  hardship  imposed  upon  the  operatives. 


CAR   SHOBTAOB.  427 

But  the  lack  of  cars  in  which  to  make  shipments  is  only  the  begin- 
nin«r  of  trouble.  Mills  located  at  or  near  large  terminal  points  do 
not  all  suffer  severely  from  this  cause,  but  all  are  sufferers  from  the 
ridiculously  slow  movement  of  lumber,  which  seems  to  be  sidetracked 
for  ever}'  other  class  of  freight.  I  have  not  had  time  to  compile  in 
tabular  form  the  reports  I  have  received,  but  the  cases  are  innumera- 
ble where  lumU'r  shipments  are  ten  times  as  long  in  transit  as  would 
l>e  the  case  under  reasonably  steady  movement.  Some  cases  are  ex- 
treme, where  CHI'S .  require  months  to  move  100  or  '200  miles;  but 
from  all  that  I  can  learn  the  average  movement  of  lumber-laden  cjire 
will  not  e.xceed,  at  the  present  rate,  20  miles  a  day,  and  to  this  are 
added  the  long  delays  in  waiting  for  cai*s. 

I  have  spoken  so  far  from  the  shipper's  standpoint,  but  the  situa- 
tion with  the  receiver  is  as  serious.  Retail  dealers  in  lumber  incur 
penalties  for  nonfultiUment  of  contracts,  consumei-s'  operations  are 
delayed,  and  factories  are  shut  down  l)ecause  of  the  ncmreceipt  of 
luml>er  ordered  in  time  ample  under  ordinary  fall  and  winter  condi- 
tions. The  situation  from  the  standpoint  of  the  consignee  is  ap- 
palling. 

P>om  the  evidence  in  hand  it  seems  that  it  would  be  fairly  correct 
to  say  there  is  no  car  shortage.  There  is  a  woeful  scarcity  of  availa- 
ble empties,  but  it  is  coming  to  1h»  the  U'lief  of  the  shipi)ing  public 
that  the  difficulty  lies  farther  back  than  the  mere  matter  or  numl)er  of 
cars.  The  difficulty  seems  to  lie  in  the  misuse  of  cars  by  the  railroads 
themselves. 

From  all  the  evidence  that  has  come  to  hand  during  the  past  year, 
including  the  snjall  amounts  collected  for  demurrage  by  the  rail- 
roads, 1  conclude  that  the  detention  of  cjirs  by  lumber  shippei*s  or 
receivers  is  so  snuill  as  to  be  a  negligible  quantity,  and  that  the  same 
is  true  in  most  other  lines  of  trade.  There  is  evidence,  however,  that 
in  some  industries,  particularly  those  which  have  close  affiliation  with 
the  railroads,  cars  are,  by  the  c(msent  and  with  the  connivance  of  the 
railroads,  used  for  storage  to  a  serious  extent;  but,  after  all,  the  chief 
difficulty  seems  to  be  in  the  movement  of  cars  from  point  of  origin  to 
destination.  I  believe  your  honorable  body  has  reported  that  the 
average  movement  of  cars  is  less  than  20  mifes  a  day.  I  assume  that 
that  includes  empties  as  well  as  loaded  cars,  and  detentions  for  load- 
ing and  unloading.  Assuming  that  one-half  the  time  is  devoted  to 
loading  and  uidoading,  then  the  movement  of  loaded  cars  would  be 
less  than  40  miles  a  day,  whereas  under  any  reasonable  system  of 
transportation  the  movement  should  be  from  150  to  2r)0  miles  a  day. 
A  doubling  of  the  average  daily  mileage  per  day  per  car  would  be 
equivalent  to  the  doubling  of  the  car  equipment. 

The  business  community  is  placing  the  fault  with  the  railroad 
companies  because,  first,  of  lack  of  motive  power;  and,  second,  because 
of  inadequate  passing  tracks  and  terminals.  Accompanying  this  and 
a  cause  for  it  is  a  breakdown  of  management.  Many  of  the  communi- 
cations lay  the  cause  to  the  ton-mile  theory,  which,  while  it  has  tended 
to  economy  in  one  direction — in  the  actual  cost  of  moving  traffic — has 
resulted  in  loss  in  other  directicms,  but  chiefly  in  a  lessened  fluiditv  of 
movement,  so  that  the  time  required  to  move  traffic  is  two  or  three 
times  as  long  as  it  was  formerly.  This,  some  of  my  correspondents 
believe,  is  due  to  the  growing  influence  of  the  financial  departments 


428  CAR    SHORTAGE. 

of  the  railroads  in  their  management  at  the  sacrifice  of  the  operating 
influence — that  is  to  say,  raih'oad  men,  as  such,  are  dwarfed  in  com- 
parison with  the  financial  aspects  of  the  railroad  problem. 

One  of  my  correspondents  strongly  arraigns  the  railroads  for 
lack  of  ordinary  foresight.  The  radroads  are  inclined  to  consider 
the  present  volume  of  business  offered  them  as  extraordinary.  It  is 
undoubtedly  larger  than  ever  before,  but  it  should  not  be  considered 
extraordinary,  but  only  what  was  to  be  expected  as  the  result  of 
years  of  growth  of  population,  of  business  enterprise,  and  of  develop- 
ment of  the  country.  Railroad  management  has  failed  to  keep  pace 
with  the  management  of  private  enterprises.  The  industries  had 
faith  in  the  country  and  enlarged  their  producing  capacity.  The 
railroads  showed  less  faith  and  foresight  and  failed  to  provide  facili- 
ties to  move  the  business  which  the  industries  were  preparing  to  fur- 
nish them. 

Another  phase  which  bears  directly  upon  the  province  of  the  In- 
terstate Commerce  Commission  is  a  growing  disposition  of  the  rail- 
roads, especially  those  well  equipped  with  rolling  stock,  not  to  permit 
their  cars  to  go  off  their  own  lines.  This  seems  to  be  due  to  unequal 
equipment  and  lack  of  adequate  provision  for  return  of  cars.  In 
this  direction  it  is  suggested  that  penalties  for  detention  of  cars 
should  be  much  larger  thjin  the}'  are,  and  perhaps  should  equal  or 
exceed  the  earning  power  of  cars.  There  are  many  delicate  questions 
involved  in  this  matter;  but  the  wisdom  of  the  railroads  and  of  the 
Interstate  Commerce  Commission  should  be  sufficient  to  solve  them. 
The  car-service  charges,  as  between  the  roads,  should  be  greatly  raised 
or  provision  should  ))e  made  by  which  cars  should  be  returned  as 
fast  as  cars  are  received  in  the  exchange  between  the  roads.  This 
same  principle  might  be  applied  to  reciprocal  demurrage,  if  such  a 
measure  should  become  law  by  act  of  Congress  or  by  ruling  of  your 
honorable  body.  The  suggestions  to  this  end  are  various.  Some 
insist  that  after  a  demurrage  period  of  $1  a  day  per  car  the  charge 
might  be  raised  as  high  as  $5  a  day  per  car,  which  would  exceed  the 
earning  capacity  of  the  car  in  almost  any  kind  of  traffic.  Apply 
this  to  the  railroads  and  to  their  customers  alike  and  there  would  be 
an  incentive  to  the  most  rapid  movement  possible  of  equipment  of 
all  kinds  for  the  convenience  of  general  transportation. 

Further  than  the  above,  I  refer  you  to  the  letters  which  I  have 
received,  some  of  which  t  may  read,  and  copies  of  which  I  may 
leave  with  you  as  part  of  the  record  in  this  hearing. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  this  [referring  to  another  paper]  is  a  call  for  a 
National  Reciprocal  Demurrage  Convention  that  you  issued? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Yes;  I  have  issued  a  call  for  that  and  used  the 
names  of  250  lumbermen  in  reference  to  that  matter. 

Commissioner  Lane.  For  what  date? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  January  4,  next. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Where? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Chicago. 

Mr.  Marble.  The  call  provides  for  the  consideration  of  the  propo- 
sition that,  inasmuch  as  shippers  and  receivers  pay  demurrage, 
failure  by  a  railroad  company  to  place  cars  for  loading  within  a 
reasonable  fixed  time  should  subject  such  railroad  to  a  like  charge 
or  penalty,  and  also  that  in  case  of  failure  to  deliver  a  car  at  desti- 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  429 

nation  within  a  reasonable  time  the  railroad  collectings  the  freifrht 
cliiirf^p  shall  pay  the  consignee  such  an  amount  per  day  of  delay 
as  the  Interstate  Commenre  Commission  shall  deem  just. 

Mr,  Defebaugh.  There  is  no  desire  at  all  on  the  part  of  anyone 
interested  in  this  proceeding,  or  in  this  proposed  meeting,  to  do  any- 
thing extreme,  but  the  object  is  to  take  such  other  action,  or  recom- 
mend such  other  measures,  as  the  memliers  of  the  Counnission  shall, 
in  their  assembled  wisdom,  deem  equitable  and  wise. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  do  not  feel  connnitted  to  the  reciprocal 
cVmurrage  proposition? 

Mi.  Dekebaioh.  Not  5  per  cent  of  the  people  I  have  heard  from 
are  <>j)posed  to  it,  while  95  per  cent  are  strongfly  in  favor  of  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  that  include  men  of  large  business  interests? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  That  includes  250  answers,  and  two-thirds  of 
them  are  associations  representing  anywhere  from  50  to  2,000  mem- 
bers, in  addition  to  the  individual  letters,  and  hence  it  represents 
the  rentiment  of  perhaps  25.000  or  30,000  lumber  firms  in  the  United 
States,  both  large  and  small. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  vou  think  that  such  a  meastire  of  itself 
would  be  sufficient?  I  have  in  mind  such  a  case  as  this:  Suppose 
you  are  near  the  border  line  of  a  State,  or  suppose  you  were  near  a 
•orminus  of  a  road,  and  you  wished  to  send  a  carload  of  lumber  be- 
yoiul  the  terminus  of  that  road  to  some  distant  point  on  the  line  of 
another  road.  Now,  as  I  understand  it,  under  the  principle  of  recin- 
iHH'al  demurrage  it  would  put  a  ix>nalty  on  the  initial  carrier,  would 
it    not  ? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  Yes;  but  they  have  joint  arrangements  for  inter- 
state  traffic. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  It  would  put  a  |:)enalty  on  the  initial  car- 
rier. Say  that  you  demand  a  car  for  a  shipment  of  a  load  of  lum- 
l>er,  and  under  the  penalty  of  such  a  law  the  initial  carrier  would 
have  to  furnish  that  car.  It  would  have  to  send  it  off  its  own  rails 
onto  the  rails  of  the  connecting  carrier.  Now,  those  shipments  might 
<ZO  on  until  the  reasonable  supply  of  cars  owned  by  the  initial  car- 
riers were  on  the  lines  of  other  carriers,  beyond  its  control.  In  other 
words,  they  would  l)e  where  the  initial  carrier  could  not  get  physical 
possession  of  them.  Now,  would  it  suffice  to  have  a  law  providing  for 
reciprocal  demurrage  without  providing  also  for  the  return  of  the 
cars  by  the  connecting  carrier  under  like  penalty? 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  There  would  have  to  oe  a  mutual  plan. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  understand  that  the  Supreme  Court  has 
decided,  as  a  principle  of  law — as  a  princij)le  of  the  law  of  carriers — 
that  a  carrier  need  not  have  its  cars  go  off  its  own  line.  It  is  the  car- 
rier'.; right  to  stop  those  cars  at  its  terminus.  Now,  then,  suppose 
the  initial  carrier  furnishes  you  with  a  car  to  its  terminus.  What 
are  you  going  to  do  with  the  connecting  carrier  if  it  fails  to  furnish 
a  car  promptly  for  the  transfer? 

Mr.  Defebai  «;h.  The  result  of  any  such  agitation  or  legislation 
would  lie  that  the  roads  not  properly  equipped  now  would  not  be 
dependent  on  the  Illinois  Central  and  other  roads  that  are  properly 
equipped.  They  would  be  obliged  to  equip  their  lines,  and  a  mutual 
traffic  and  interchange  would  naturally  follow.  They  would  be  por- 
foctly  v.illing  to  hrve  their  cars  g;'  off  their  lines  if  they  could  get 
other  cars  from  the  other  lines  in  return. 


430  OAR   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  But  don't  you  require  more  than  reciprocal 
demurrage  in  order  to  accomplish  the  practical  result  you  have  in 
mind? 

Mr,  Defebaugh.  I  think  the  clearing-house  idea  is  involved  of 
necessitv.  If  it  is  employed  on  the  Union  Pacific  and  Southern 
Pacific  lines,  and  all  those  related  lines,  it  would  have  to  be  in  a  meas- 
ure a  mutual  arrangement  in  national  transportation. 

A  great  many  roads  are  placing  an  embargo  on  cars  going  off  their 
lines.  Cars  are  coming  into  Chicago  to-day  which  have  been  trans- 
ferred at  the  gateways,  and  by  neglect  or  carelessness  or  otherwise 
they  are  losing  a  great  deal  of  time  here  because  in  making  the  trans- 
fer they  have  failed  to  put  the  original  car  number  on  the  various 
documents  involved  in  a  shipment,  and  they  must  have  a  great  deal 
of  corraspondence  and  a  great  deal  of  difficulty  until  they  adequately 
determine  who  the  owner  of  the  car  is,  and  whence  it  came.  Several 
shippers  have  complained  about  that.  It  is  a  common  thing  when 
the  transfer  is  made,  and  it  is  making  a  tremendous  amount  of  trouble 
and  loss  to  the  roads  themselves,  because  they  can  not  quickly  handle 
it  when  they  themselves  are  holding  cars.  That  will  have  to  adjust 
itself  with  the  necessary  equipment. 

No  reciprocal  demurrage  law  could  go  into  effect  under  twelve 
months,  or  some  such  time,  and  I  figure  that  such  a  length  of  time  is 
absolutely  necessary  for  the  roads  to  have  ample  opportunity  to  equip 
themselves  for  such  a  thing,  and  hence  it  could  not  be  made  to  work  a 
hardship,  because  it  would  not  become  effective  possibly  before  that 
time. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  No  ;  but  it  strikes  me  that  it  is  a  very  large 
proposition,  and  one  involving  a  great  deal  more  than  is  involved  ijn 
reciprocal  demurrage  alone.  It  seems  to  me  that  it  has  many  other 
features  that  would  have  to  be  covered  by  legislation  before  it  could 
be  made  effective. 

Mr.  Defebaugh.  That  question  is  being  thought  about  a  great  deal. 
It  is  on  for  discussion  now,  and  is  being  discussed  throughout  the 
United  States. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  I  think  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  have  placed  those  letters  here,  if  you  require  them. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Thank  you;  we  will  take  those  letters  and 
examine  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  consists  of  a  mass  of  copies  of  correspondence  upon 
which  the  statement  read  by  the  witness  was  based,  and  will  be  con- 
sidered later. 

Sidney  P.  Hostler,  called  and  sworn  as  a  witness,  testified  as  fol- 
lows: 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  your  business  ? 
Mr.  Hostler.  Wholesale  coal  dealer. 
Mr.  Marble.  And  your  residence  ? 
Mr.  Hostler.  Chicago. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  receive  coal  from  what  mines,  as  to  locality? 
Mr,  Hostler.  Well,  I  received  during  November  coal  from  6  dif- 
ferent States,  22  mining  districts,  and  32  grades  of  coal. 
Mr.  Marble.  You  sold  coal  in  how  many  States? 
Mr.  Hostler.  Eight  States. 


OAR  SHOBTAGB.  431 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  average  business  per  month  or  per  year  is  about 
what? 

Mr.  Hostler.  Well,  I  could  not  state  that  as  I  have  not  the  figures 
before  me,  but  last  month  we  had  518  cars.  That  is,  we  actually  sold 
that  number,  but  we  did  not  get  them  in. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  had  a  great  deal  of  trouble  in  getting  cars? 

Mr.  Hostler.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  dealt  with  mines  that  w^ere  closed  down  in 
whole  or  in  part  for  lack  of  cars? 

Mr.  HosTUiR.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  suffered  from  slowness  of  movement  in 
handling  cars? 

Mr.  Hostler.  Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Ijane.  Where  were  these  mines  that  were  closed  down 
for  lack  of  cars? 

Mr.  H()stij:r.  I  might  mention  that  we  are  the  sole  western  agents 
of  the  Winnifred  Coal  Company.  Under  the  laws  of  West  Virginia 
cars  must  be  distributed  pro  ratji  equitably.  One  mine  gets  its  pro- 
portion one  day  for  the  day's  run,  and  another  mine  the  next  day. 

The  proprietors  keep  a  man  employed  and  pay  him,  and  he  has  got 
an  office  with  the  car  distributer  to  se«  that  the  cars  are  distributed 
equitably,  and  so  when  I  give  you  the  statistics  of  this  particular 
mine  you  know  that  it  applies  to  every  other  mine  in  this  district  and 
in  that  State. 

They  are  located  on  the  C.  &  O.  road.  Now,  we  had  a  great  deal 
of  coal  purchased  from  other  mines  in  that  territory  on  that  same  road, 
and  also  on  parallel  roads  on  the  opposite  side  of  the  river.  The  K. 
&  M.  road  is  on  one  side  of  the  river  and  the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  is 
on  the  other.  As  to  the  AVinnifred  mines,  they  have  not  taken  any 
orders  since  the  1st  of  September.  The  1st  of  November  they  were 
behind  in  their  shipments  1,014  cars.  They  were  behind  in  the  pro- 
duction 48,000  tons,  or  1,200  cars  of  40  tons  each.  During  this  time, 
from  the  1st  of  September  to  December  1,  they  shipped  in  any  kind 
of  a  car  they  could  get — box  cars,  hopper  bottom,  twin  drop,  and 
stock  cars,  and  flat-bottom  gondolas.  Previous  to  that  they  snipped 
in  nothing  but  box  cars,  because  our  trade  on  that  grade  of  coal  is 
singular  and  consists  of  an  individual  carload  for  each  customer, 
scattered  all  over  the  northwest.  We  can  ship  it  even  with  the  differ- 
ential freight  rates  a^inst  us  at  Chicago.  We  can  ship  it  to  almost 
every  town  in  South  Dakota,  northern  Iowa,  southern  Minnesota,  and 
as  far  west  as  Lincoln,  Nebr. 

When  the  shortage  came  the  Chasapeake  and  Ohio  prohibited  the 
loading  of  box  cars  with  coal.  During  the  months  of  September, 
October,  and  November  they  shipped  me  five  cars  less,  all  told,  than 
they  shipped  me  during  the  month  of  July  last.  See  what  a  shortage 
that  was  on  my  contract.  I  have  been  unable  to  take  care  of  my  cus- 
tomers for  sometime.  During  the  month  of  November  they  did  not 
ship  me  a  single  flat-bottom  car. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Did  you  have  any  contract  with  the  mine? 

Mr.  Hostler.  Wc  had  a  regular  annual  contract.  We  are  the  ex- 
clusive agents,  and  a  certain  stated  tonnage  is  to  be  handled  each 
month. 

Commissioner  I>.ank.  How  much  did  you  agree  to  takef 


432  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Hostler.  We  agreed  to  take  2,500  tons  per  month.  They 
agreed  to  give  me  as  much  additional  as  they  could  get  cars  to  load 
in.  During  the  month  of  July  they  gave  me  000  tons  above  my  con- 
tract. The  1st  of  August  they  fell  down  for  want  of  cars.  The  1st 
of  September  they  could  not  take  any  orders. 

Commissioner  Lane.  AMiere  are  the  mines  that  are  closed  down? 

Mr.  Hostler.  Of  course,  they  have  not  all  been  closed  down,  except 
at  times  waiting  for  their  percentage  of  cars.  During  the  month  of 
September  I  spent  ten  days  down  there  visiting  the  different  mines 
along  the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  and  along  on  the  Kanawha  and 
Michigan,  and  also  on  the  Norfolk  and  Western.  I  was  down  there 
two  weeks  in  November  trying  to  get  coal  forwarded ;  to  get  the  other 
mines  to  ship  coal.  Some  of  them  have  not  shipped  me  a  single  car, 
and  I  have  got  a  stack  of  correspondence  stating  that  the  reason  is 
lack  of  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Correspondence  with  the  mines? 

Mr.  Hostler.  With  the  mines ;  yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Not  with  the  railroad  (Companies? 

Mr.  Hostler.  It  is  lack  of  cars  at  the  mine.  Now,  these  very 
mines — you  see  the  mines  are  located  on  the  main  line  of  the  Chesa- 
peake and  Ohio  and  are  also  located  on  the  river.  Those  mines  can 
load  by  both  rail  and  water.  When  they  have  not  got  railroad  cars 
they  load  coal  into  their  own  cars  and  dump  it  into  their  own  barges. 
These  other  mines  located  up  on  the  branches  where  they  don't  have 
access  to  the  river,  they  don't  run  over  two  days  a  week,  and  the 
miners  leave  them  and  go  down  and  work  for  the  river  mines,  be- 
cause they  have  more  steady  work. 

The  Winifred  Coal  Company's  annual  production  is  240,000  tohs, 
and  if  they  had  any  assurance  of  getting  cars  they  would  increase  it 
to  300,000  tons.  There  is  lots  of  demand  for  that  coal  here,  and 
orders  we  could  take  every  year,  but  we  can  not  get  the  cars  and  can 
not  take  them.  I  had  the  annual  contract  for  twelve  consecutive 
years  with  the  Pullman  Company  for  that  coal.  They  have  to  get 
coal  from  other  mines  now,  because  we  need  the  coal  for  our  domestic 
trade. 

I  have  got  cars  shipped  in  one  case  that  have  been  out  since  October 
25  between  Cincinnati  and  here.  We  have  located  them  down  here 
at  Sheff,  Ind.  I  have  got  one  of  those  files  of  correspondence  show- 
ing our  efforts  to  trace  it,  and  I  have  got  other  cars.  I  compiled  a 
statement  this  afternoon,  taking  the  shipments  of  three  different 
mines.  The  average  distance  from  the  Kanawha  district  to  Chicago 
is  530  miles.  Here  is  one  mine  where  they  shipped  us  13  cars  and  the 
average  time  in  transit  was  eleven  days,  just  a  little  fraction  under 
eleven  days.  The  shortest  or  quickest  time  was  eight  days,  and  the 
longest  time  was  sixteen  days.  That  was  an  average  of  48  miles  per 
day.  In  former  years  we  used  to  get  the  coal  here  in  four  days,  but 
now  since  they  have  doubled  the  capacity  of  the  cars  they  have  more 
than  doubled  the  running  time.  They  claim  it  is  not  economical  to 
run  coal  trains  fast,  and  they  just  lug  those  cars  along  just  as  slow 
as  they  can,  just  to  keep  them  moving. 

Now.  notice  the  difference.  Here  is  another  mine  with  practically 
10  miles  shorter  hauJ,  10  miles  nearer  to  Chicago,  and  it  shipped  me 
23  cars,  and  the  average  running  time  was  twelve  days.     The  fastest 


CAR   8H0BTAGB.  433 

time  was  six  days  and  the  slowest  twenty-six  days.  Now,  take  another 
matter;  on  the  opposite  side  of  the  river,  ri»ht  opposite  this  first  mine, 
and  on  another  road — just  on  the  opposite  side  of  the  river — they 
had  to  come  via  a  diflFerent  road,  and  they  shipped  me  22  cars  prac- 
tically the  same  day,  and  the  average  running  time  was  ten  days. 
The  quickest  time  was  seven  days  and  the  longest  time  was  sixteen 
days.  That  was  an  average  of  53  miles  per  day.  That  second  state- 
ment was  an  average  of  44  and  the  first  48. 

Commissioner  Lane.  AVhen  you  ship  coal  from  here  out  to  Iowa 
and  Nebraska  points,  what  sort  of  time  do  they  make  with  that  ? 

Mr.  Hostler.  Once  we  ^t  it  on  the  western  lines,  and  get  it  started^ 
they  make  pretty  good  time.  They  run  it  clear  to  the  Mississippi 
River  before  it  is  ever  stopped.  I  intended — I  understood  that  this 
hearing  was  to  be  held  on  »Tanuar\'  20,  and  I  intended  to  compile  a 
list  of  cars,  which  I  will  do  soon  after  the  first  of  the  year,  showing 
the  time  they  arrive  in  Chicago,  the  date  I  reconsign  them  to  the  out- 
bound road,  and  the  amount  of  time  over  the  road.  I  will  look  up 
the  time  from  the  railroads  showing  that. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  do  you  think  of  the  reconsignment 
privilege? 

Mr.  Hostler.  It  is  necessary  on  long  hauls  for  the  simple  rea- 
son  

Commissioner  Lane.  It  is  abused,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Hostler.  No  ;  not  particularly  so.  Once  in  a  while  we  have  paid 
(lomurrage  when  a  slump  comes  on  coal.  This  privilege  comes  to  be 
necessary  for  the  simple  reason  that  we  can  not  get  cars  at  the  mines 
at  the  proper  time  so  that  they  can  fill  their  orders.  Just  to  show 
you  how  this  reconsignment  acts  I  would  like  to  say  that  we  had  a 
customer  here  at  South  Chicago,  and  he  was  located  on  the  Rock 
Island  Road.  He  ordered  a  car  of  this  West  Virginia  coal  of  a  size 
that  we  did  not  handle  here — large  egg.  He  used  it  for  a  special 
purpose. 

We  shipped  him  a  car  direct  from  the  mines,  and  the  car  was  in 
transit  sixty  days.  In  the  meantime  he  ran  out  of  coal,  and  got  a  car 
of  coal  off  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio.  AVhen  this  car  got  in  here  he 
refused  it,  as  he  had  no  room  for  it.  The  car  came  over  the  Big  Four 
and  the  Illinois  Central  Road,  and  that  was  switched  over  to  the  Rock 
Island.  The  Rock  Island  charged  him  for  doing  that — they  charged 
him  $18  demurrage,  and  as  the  car  had  gone  over  to  the  Rock  Island 
without  collecting  freight  charges  from  the  consignee  the  consignee 
was  not  out  anything  but  the  eastern  line  was  out  their  freight 
charges.  The  eastern  line  says  to  us:  "  If  you  will  take  that  car  and 
dispose  of  it,  we  will  cut  the  demurrage  otf  for  you."  So  we  had  to 
dispose  of  that  car  on  the  Rock  Island  system  in  order  to  avoid 
switching  charges  which  would  eat  up  the  value  of  the  coal.  We 
sold  it  out  on  the  Rock  Island  system,  and  it  took  the  local  rate  from 
Chicago.  The  agent  there  at  South  Chicago — the  agent  of  the  Rock 
IslancI— added  on  $18.  AVhen  the  switching  bill  came  back  we  filed 
a  claim  for  the  refund  of  the  $18.  We  had  sold  the  car  of  coal  at  a 
loss  of  about  $18.  The  Big  Four  says:  "We  did  not  collect  any 
demurrage,  and  we  can  not  refund  anything."  Mr.  Sanford  says: 
'•  I  can  not  authorize  the  Rock  Island  to  refund  that,  because  there 
S.  Doc.  333,  59-2 28 


434  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

was  no  delay  on  the  Rock  Island.  The  Illinois  Central  had  it.  and 
they  delivered  it  to  the  Kock  Island  the  next  day."  We  have  never 
been  able  to  get  Sanford  to  authorize  the  refund  of  that  $18,  Ixicause 
he  says  the  Rock  Island  is  entitled  to  it,  and  the  Big  Four  says:  "  We 
did  not  collect  any  demurrage." 

Commissioner  Lane.  Mr.  Daley  says  you  ought  to  sue  them. 

Mr.  Hostler.  Yes;  we  commenced  suit  in  a  justice  court.  They 
never  allow  them  to  get  into  a  court  of  record.  You  mentioned  about 
this  40  cents  a  ton.  I  will  cite  a  case  showing  how  it  acts.  They 
don't  charge  that  reconsigning  charge  now,  but  they  are  going  to 
adopt  a  reconsigning  charge  after  the  first  of  the  year.  We  had  a 
car  of  soft  coal  coming  over  the  Michigan  Central.  Right  on  the 
opposite  side  of  the  crossing  at  One  hundred  and  sixteenth  street  is 
a  coal  yard  located  on  the  Illinois  Central  right  of  way.  We  had 
a  car  of  coal  come  in  on  the  Illinois  Central,  and  we  sold  it  to  this 
dealer,  and  the  Illinois  Central  rendered  a  switching  bill  for  $16 
for  switching  that  car  leas  than  300  feet.  The  customer  paid  it  and 
charged  it  back  to  us.  We  filed  a  claim  before  the  State  board  here 
of  excessive  switching  charge.  They  came  into  court  and  they  said 
it  was  interstate  business;  not  only  that,  but  they  cut  me  off  because 
I  was  president  of  a  mining  company  that  was  further  down  on  their 
line.  They  got  after  me  on  that,  and  I  had  to  withdraw  my  com- 
plaint before  the  State  board.  They  got  after  the  dealer  down  there 
liecause  he  had  no  lease;  he  wanted  his  lease  renewed  for  the  coming 
year,  and  the  dealer  rushed  to  me  very  quickly  with  a  refund  of  the 
il6.     There  they  had  us. 

Some  twenty  years  ago  I  had  charge  of  all  the  switching  done  in 
the  Illinois  Central  yard.  At  that  time  the  rule  was  $2  per  car,  under 
14  miles.  When  the  St.  Paul  built  this  division  along  Bloomingdale 
road  there  were  two  or  three  industries  located  upon  that  road,  and 
they  made  a  switching  charge  over  there  of  $5  per  car.  The  North- 
w'estern  retaliated  and  made  a  switching  charge  of  $2.50  per  car. 
The  Pan  Handle  at  that  time  would  never  switch  for  other  roads. 
Now  they  have  got  it  so  that  they  accept  switching  from  other  roads, 
but  put  the  charge  so  high  as  to  make  it  prohibitory. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  that  the  customary  charge — 40  cents? 

Mr.  Hostler.  It  is  now. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  long  has  it  been  such? 

Mr.  Hostler.  A  little  over  a  year  ago.  but  the  State  commission 
adopted  a  rule  that  under  3  miles  it  should  be  not  to  exceed  $3,  and 
then  they  made  another  charge.  They  had  a  hearing  day  before  yes- 
terday before  the  State  commission. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Has  anybody  complained  of  that  switching 
charge  upon  soft  coal? 

Mr.  Hostler.  They  have  not  as  yet,  and  the  reason  is  that  the  man 
who  has  his  yard  located  on  the  Illinois  Central  right  of  way  he 
knows  enough  now  not  to  buy  coal  on  other  roads.  He  won't  buy  any 
coming  in  over  the  Michigan  Central.  I  might  have  coal  on  the 
Michigan  Central,  but  I  can  not  send  it  over  to  this  fellow's  yard 
without  losing  a  great  deal  more.     Do  you  see  how  it  works? 

Now,  here  I  got  a  letter  that  I  sent  to  the  editor  of  the  Black  Dia- 
mond, as  follows: 


CAB  8H0BTA0E.  435 

H06TLEB  CoAt  AND  Coke  Company. 

Chicago,  December  20,  1906. 
E.  S.  Ketchum. 

Editor  Black  Diamond,  Chicaffo,  III. 

Dear  Sib:  Your  favor  of  rHH-emlier  17th  at  hand  and  notwl.  We  need 
National  and  State  reciprocal  deniiirniKO  laws.  Wlien  the  railroad  <*onip»nle8 
are  reciuired  to  >jive  coal  the  attention  that  its  iin|>ortance  as  a  oonini<Mlit.v  de- 
mands, our  trans{x)rtation  tnMiliies  in  the  (t)al  trade,  if  not  entirely  eradicated, 
will  \ye  retluced  to  a  minimum.  The  wholesaler  and  shipiJer  wants,  and  the 
retailer  needs — 

First.  Free  interchange  of  cars  l>etween  railroads;  no  restrictions  on  car 
eguipnient.  The  railroads  oin  double  and  treble  their  i)er  diem  charge  against 
each  other,  which  will  insure  pmtiipt  return  of  cars. 

Se<t)nd.  Cars  fumisluHl  mines  inside  of  forty-eight  hours  after  order  for  same 
is  piactMl :  also  kind  of  cars.  When  l>ox  cars  are  wanted,  we  don't  want  steel 
hopi)er,  tide-water  cars  furnished ;  pemilty,  $1  per  car  per  day  for  any  failure 
or  «ielay  in  furnishing  cars. 

Third.  Cars  moved  promptly  inside  of  twenty-four  hours  after  loaded;  pen- 
alty. $1  i)er  car  |)er  day. 

Fourth.  Cars  kept  moving  toward  destination  not  less  than  100  miles  each 
twenty-four  hours;   i)enalty.  $1  i>er  car  per  day. 

When  the  alwve  InM-omcs  a  law  and  the  rule  and  practice*  of  every  railway 
company,  then,  and  not  until  then,  will  we  have  no  trouble  regarding  car 
shortages  or  delays  in  shipments.  It  will  do  away  with  !>."»  i»er  cvnt  of  the  car 
denuirrage  charge<l  on  shipm<'nts,  for  we  will  then  know  exactly  when  to  order 
coal  fonvard  to  take  care  of  our  trade  and  it  will  do  away  with  75  |)er  cent  of 
the  reconsignment  of  coal  in  transit,  as  we  can  have  coal  sIiIpikhI  dirtvt  from 
niin«»s  to  dealer  with  the  iKisitive  as.surance  that  cars  will  be  sbipi»ed  promptly 
from  mines  after  order  is  placed  with  us,  and  we  can  assure  dealer  that  cars 
will  reach  him  in  so  many  days  after  coal  is  shipinnl. 

We  trust  the  Hlack  Diamond  will  push  this  nmvement  along  and  do  every- 
thing |K>ssible  to  make  the  Nati«»nal  Shipi)er8'  Convention,  to  1k»  held  in  Chicago 
January  4.  a  su<hv.ss.     To  this  end  we  are  willing  to  do  our  i^art 
Yours,  truly, 

S.  P.  H08TLEB,  I'rrxidrnt. 

I  noticed  the  cars  down  there  at  the  mines  on  the  sidings  that 
had  stood  there  three  days  after  being  loaded  at  the  mines. 

Mr.  McKenna,  of  the  St.  Paul,  testified  that  cars  move  100  miles 
in  twelve  hours.  Mr.  Willard,  of  the  Chicago.  Burlington  and 
Quincy,  testified  from  twelve  to  fourteen  hours  per  100  miles,  and 
one  of  the  gentlemen  testified  here  to-day  that  twelve  hours  on  a 
terminal  was  average  delay.  Ninety  per  cent  of  our  Illinois  and 
Indiana  coal  we  ship  direct  from  the  mines  to  destination  in  order 
to  take  the  through  freight  rates  and  give  the  dealer  the  benefit  of 
the  delivery  price.  To-day  we  have  about  r)0  unfilled  orders  in 
Iowa  and  Minnesota  that  run  as  far  back  as  October  29. 

Commissioner  Laxe.  How  many  days  do  you  need  to  decide  where 
you  will  consign  it  to? 

Mr.  Hostler.  They  allow  us  five  days. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Suppose  it  were  cut  down  to  two? 

Mr.  IIo.sTi.EK.  Mr,  Saniord  took  that  matter  up  with  me  some 
months  ago,  when  we  had  seven  days — over  a  year  ago.  While  seven 
(lays  is  too  long  on  Indiana  and  Illinois  coal,  because  we  can  get 
our  coal  in  from  the  mine  in  three  or  four  days,  still  it  takes  from 
eight  to  si.xteeh  days  to  get  the  AVest  Virginia  coal,  and  consequently 
five  days  is  not  too  long. 

Conmii.ssioner  K\ne.  It  is  too  long  to  have  the  terminals  clogged 
up  with  cars? 

Mr.  Hostler.  We  do  not  hold  them.  We  have  not  held  a  car 
since  September  1,  except  two  cars  of  smithing  coal,  and  they  would 


436  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

not  have  been  held  if  the  mines  had  been  furnished  cars  promptly. 
The  mines  were  thirty  days  in  shipping  them,  and  we  had  to  hunt 
up  a  new  customer  for  these  cars  because  we  had  bought  other  coal 
to  fill  that  first  order. 

Cars  are  delayed  in  transit  sometimes  so  that  we  have  to  sell  them 
three  times.  On  October  25  I  got  a  rush  order  and  we  thought  we 
were  doing  that  customer  a  favor  in  taking  it.  He  is  still  waiting  for 
his  car  of  coal.  I  don't  know  how  much  time  was  used  up  in  trying 
to  get  a  car  through.  When  we  ship  coal  now  we  have  no  assurance 
that  it  will  ever  get  here,  or  when  it  will  get  here.  I  have  shipped 
coal  from  Louisville  on  the  Ohio  River,  and  the  railroad  will  say, 
"We  brought  that  coal  through  in  as  prompt  time  as  possible,  under 
the  circumstances."  When  we  prove  to  them  conclusively  that  they 
did  not.  because  coal  shipped  on  the  very  same  day  via  other  lines 
came  through  in  half  the  time,  they  still  insist  they  did  the  best  they 
could. 

"\ATien  a  train  gets  too  heavy,  or  when  they  strike  a  grade,  and  it 
gets  wet  weather  or  is  a  little  cold,  the  engine  can  not  pull  as  much 
and  they  notify  the  despatcher,  and  he  says :  "  Set  out  a  couple  of 
cars."  And  they  set  out  a  couple  of  cars,  and  it  is  a  long  time  before 
those  cars  are  brought  in.  We  want  them  to  give  coal  the  proper 
movement.  It  is  important — a  very  important  branch  of  tramc.  It 
comprises  45  per  cent  of  the  railway  tonnage  of  the  United  States. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Coal  does? 

Mr.  Hostler.  It  comprises  more  than  that  on  the  Illinois  Central 
and  Chicago  and  Eastern  Illinois  Railroad. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Are  there  any  further  questions,  jJlr. 
Marble? 

Mr.  Marble.  No  ;  I  think  not. 

Mr.  Hostler.  I  will  prepare  this  statement  showing  the  recon- 
signment  of  cars  and  the  delays  on  terminals  here. 

Whereupon,  at  10.15  p.  m.,  the  further  hearing  of  said  matter 
•was  adjourned  until  10  o'clock  the  following  day,  December  21,  1906. 


Chicago,  III.,  December  £1,  1906 — W  o'clock  a.  m. 

Slason  Thompson,  being  first  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows; 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  AMiat  is  your  business? 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  am  a  journalist  in  the  employ  of  the  General 
Managers'  Association;  or,  perhaps,  I  should  say  an  ex- journalist. 

Mr.  Marble.  General  managers  of  the  railways? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  in  their  employ? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  have  written  on  the  general  questions  con- 
cerning which  this  investigation  is  being  held,  as  well  as  other  rail- 
way questions? 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  have. 

Mr.  Marble,  You  heard  the  testimony  yesterday;  and,  without 
stopping  to  sum  it  up,  I  will  ask  if  you  have  any  suggestions  to 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  437 

make,  or  any  plan  that  you  have  devised,  to  meet  the  conditions 
existing  at  the  present  tii.ie. 

Mr.  Thompson.  My  idea  in  regard  to  meeting  the  conditions 
would  be  at  least  partially  emlxxlied,  I  think,  in  tlie  suggestion  of 
(Commissioner  I^ne,  yesterday,  of  two  per  diems,  one  of  50  j^ents 
during  the  dull  season,  and  a  dollar  or  something  more  during  the 
active  period  of  the  year.  The  condition  is  so  general,  the  ditticidty 
due  to  the  failure  to  meet  the  traffic  demands,  that  it  seems  to  me  the 
remedy  must  be  general  too.  For  the  information,  jwrhaps,  of  the 
Commission,  I  wish  to  say  that  I  have  gathered  the  statistics  for  the 
year  190(>  up  to  date  for  807  roads,  or  308  roads,  and  I  think  they 
show  a  ton  mileage  of  213,H'21>,085,000  as  against  18(5,000,000,000  for 
the  total  of  1905. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Two  hundred  and  thirteen  billion  eight  hun- 
dred and  twenty-nine  million  six  hundred  and  eighty-five  tliousand 
for  1906? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Two  hundred  and  thirteen  billion  eight  hundred 
jind  twenty-nine  million  six  hundred  and  eighty-five  thousand. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Covering  the  same  number  of  roads? 

Mr.  Thompson.  No;  but  covering  94  per  cent  of  the  roads  as 
against  the  final  report  for  1905.  The  roads  that  are  not  included, 
the  percentage  would  not  be  as  great,  and  I  estimate  beyond  that  that 
perhaps  the  total  figures  will  be  220,829,685,000. 

You  will  understand  the  bearing  of  that  when  you  subtract  one 
from  the  other,  and  find  the  enormous  increase  that  came  in  the  fiscal 
year  1906,  and  that  that  is  on  top  of  the  remarkable  increase  growing 
up  to  that.  Now,  for  the  whole  period  from  1900,  the  increase  is 
from  141,599,157,279  to  this  220,829,685,000,  but  you  see  the  greatest 
increase  came  right  last  year.  The  roads  all  over  the  country  have 
endeavored  to  keep  pace  with  this  increase  and  get  ready  for  it  befoi'e 
(he  increase  came.  It  is  indicative  of  the  general  business  of  the 
entire  United  States.  Since  I  was  subpoenaed  here  I  tried  to  get — 
one  of  the  Commissioners  yesterday  was  asking  for  some  of  these 
figures,  and  if  you  will  pennit  me  I  will  give  them  to  you,  as  to  the 
equipment  of  freight  cars  and  engines.  Taking  the  freight  cars  first, 
I  have  eleven  roads,  and  if  you  care  to  have  me,  I  will  give  you  the 
jiames  of  the  roads. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Perhaps  you  can  file  that  memorandum? 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  won't  attempt  to  give  the  figures,  only  just  the 
■-Mmmaries.  I  have  got  a  number  of  roads  here,  and  thev  include 
two  or  three  of  the  principal  ones  in  our  General  Managers'^  Associa- 
tion of  Chicago. 

The  number  of  freight  cars  in  1900  was  three  hundred  and  thirty- 
one  odd  thousand,  and  in  1906  it  was  four  hundred  and  thirty-two 
odd  thousand,  showing  an  increase  in  the  number  of  30  per  cent. 
Now^,  as  to  the  capacity  of  those  cars,  which  is  the  principal  thing, 
and  these  capacities  are  given  in  million  pounds  of  capacity — 
18,596  in  1900  as  against  28,599  in  1906. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Twenty-eight  thousand  million? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Twenty-eight  thousand  million — twenty-eight 
thousand  five  hundred  and  ninety-nine  million. 

Commissioner  Lane.  What  percentage  of  increase  is  that? 

Mr.  Thompson.  The  percentage  of  increased  capacity  is  53.8  as 
against  35  in  the  number. 


438  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  what  the  increase  in  traffic  was 
during  those  years? 

Mr.  Thompson.  The  increase  in  traffic  is  practically  what  I  gave 
you.  There  is  one  thing  more  that  I  want  to  say  in  regard  to  some 
of  these  roads,  that  the  statistics  given  are  not  for  the  full  period. 
The  Pennsylvania  road  is  only  for  from  1001  to  1905. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Thompson,  could  you  conveniently 
put  this  in  typewriting  and  file  it  ? 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  will  have  this  put  in  typewriting  ajid  put  it  in 
this  afternoon. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Or  forward  it  to  us  at  Washington. 

Mr.  Thompson.  To  whom  shall  I  send  it? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  To  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission, 
to  Mr.  Lane,  at  Washington. 

Mr.  THo>iPSt)N.  The  increase  in  tractive  power  is  very  interesting 
and  very  si^iificant.    The  tractive  power  increased  in  these  years 

Commissioner  Hari^\n.  Covering  the  same  number  of  roads? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Covering  the  same  nimiber  of  roads.  It  increased 
90  per  cent,  against  an  increase  in  the  number  of  47.8  per  cent. 
When  you  get  the  memorandum  you  will  see  that  these  figures  do  not 
cover  the  Avhole  period.  For  instance,  the  figures  in  reference  to 
the  Pennsylvania  only  cover  the  time  from  1900  to  1905,  and  of 
the  Northwestern  from  1902  to  1906. 

I  have  endeavored  in  that  to  reduce  the  capacity  of  the  engine 
in  every  case  to  the  tractive  power,  and  wherever  I  have  had  to 
make  the  calculation  myself  I  have  seen  that  the  increase  was  less 
than  that  as  given  by  the  ton  weight,  some  of  the  roads  just  keepiri^ 
the  weight  of  their  engines  and  not  the  tractive  power. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  Mr.  Thomjjson,  these  figures,  where  did  you  get 
them,  as  to  the  increase  in  tonnage? 

Mr.  Thompson.  In  tonnage,  from  the  reports  from  all  the  roads 
direct.  They  are  sent  to  me  after  the  return  is  made  to  the  Interstate 
Conmierce  Commission. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  want  to  ask  you  if  you  at  all  suspect  that  those 
are  simply  paper  records  and  do  not  truly  state  the  conditions,  and  I 
will  give  you  a  word  of  explanation.  It  is  sometimes  charged  that 
the  influence  upon  the  stock  market  of  the  reports  of  great  tonnage, 
and  great  tonnage  per  train  mile,  is  such  (this  has  been  the  charge) 
that  from  the  general  managers  down  to  the  division  superintendents 
there  is  a  constant  striving  to  produce  those  figures,  and  that  the 
paper  figures  are  considered  of  more  value  than  the  practical  results. 
Do  you  at  all  suspect  that  that  is  true? 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  should  hardly  think  so,  as  long  as  those  figures 
do  not  come  in  until — the  last  of  these  figures  are  just  coming  now, 
and  they  do  not  come  in  until  long  after  the  financial  papers  have 
given  out  their  general  results  in  regard  to  earnings — gross  earnings, 
and  net  earnings.  My  figiu-es  are  from  duplicate  pages  of  the  annual 
report  sent  out  by  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Thompson,  have  you  any  other  sug- 
gestion to  make  which  would  tend  to  relieve  this  congestion  and 
shortage  of  care? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Well,  I  have  opinions,  but  I  do  not  think  that  I 
know  anvthing  beyond  what  the  others  have  said. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  treated  of  the  subject  in  some 
of  the  things  that  you  have  written  ? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  439 

Mr.  TiiOAfPSON.  T  have  written  alwiit  that,  and  T  have  had  in- 
formation from  men  like  Mr.  Sanford,  and  men  in  the  railroad  busi- 
ness, and  also  from  men  among  my  friends,  the  shipjjers. 

This  question  of  reconsignment,  it  seems  to  me,  is  one  of  the  vital 
points,  because  you  know  how  that  average  of  23.4  miles  is  arrived 
at  by  the  division  of  the  entire  car  mileage  by  the  numlMM*  of  cars 
owned.  That  28  miles  per  day,  if  you  take  the  average  given  by 
the  reports  of  the  Interstate  Connnerct»  Connnission,  for  the  whole 
United  States,  is  made  upon  an  average  haul  of  130  or  133  miles. 
Now,  if  you  ad<l  to  the  day  of  the  haul,  as  the  trains  run,  it  is  no 
feat  at  all  for  tiiem  to  make  the  haul  in  one  day,  130  miles.  Now, 
if  you  a<ld  the  day  to  the  sum  of  the  days,  one  day  practically  for 
notice  and  then  two  days  free  time  to  unload  and  load,  I  think  the 
average  has  been  said  to  be  nine  days — about  nine  days  is  taken  up 
in  these  things — and  there  is  ten  days  for  the  130-mile  haul.  All 
you  bave  to  do  is  to  divide  it,  and  you  see  if  the  railroads  were  not 
working  prettv  hard  they  could  not  begin  to  get  23  miles  out  of  it. 
AVhen  you  look  at  the  average  that  way  it  really  is  a  delusive  aver- 
age, because  it  takes  in  so  much  time  that  the  stutf  is  held  in  cars. 
Here  in  Chicago  the  fact  is  known  that  there  is  no  warehouse  in  the 
city  that,  since  the  recovery  of  business  in  1897,  is  beginning  to  keep 
pace  with  the  business  of  the  city. 

Mr.  Marble.  You,  of  course,  recognize  the  fact  that  the  rules 
under  which  these  things  take  place  are  made  by  the  railroad  com- 
panies? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Yes;  I  do. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  a  good  deal  of  the  responsibility  for  it  rests 
upon  them? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Yes;  and  I  have  not  any  doubt  but  what  they 
ought  to  increase  their  per  diem  on  frei<j:ht  cai*s  so  as  to  nuike  that 
movement  more  expeditious;  but  I  don't  look  on  the  cars  being  away 
from  their  home  yards  as  such  a  calamity  for  the  rest  of  the  country, 
bt»cause,  of  course,  the  cars  have  to  \ye  away  from  home,  and  also  it 
would  have  the  effect  to  get  them  buck  as  early  as  they  can.  Here 
in  Chicago  we  have  had  coal,  up  to  recently,  having  the  right  to 
seven  days.  That  has  been  reduced  to  five,  and  is  to  be  reduced  to 
three. 

CommLs.sioner  Lane.  Do  von  agree  with  Mr.  Daly,  in  his  state- 
ment yesterday,  that  it  is  doinible  to  have  some  authority,  other 
than  the  roads,  impose  a  rule  reducing  the  time  of  reconsignment, 
so  that  there  may  not  lie  a  competiticm  against  each  other  among  the 
roads  in  granting  time  for  reconsignment? 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  should  not  quite  agree  with  Mr.  Daly  on  that 
point,  because  I  think  their  own  self-interest  and  a  little  bit  of  cour- 
age on  the  part  of  the  ix)ads  would  caus<'  them  to  ogrec  to  the  curtail- 
ment of  certain  privileges  that  perhaps  were  needed  at  one  time,  but 
are  absolutely  a  drag  and  a  brake  ou  business  to-day. 

Mr.  Makblk.  You  never  have  been  at  all  in  favor  of  any  regidation 
of  tile  railroads,  have  you? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Oh,  yes;  I  favor  the  regulation  of  railroads 
through  the  Intei-state  {\)nHnerce  Commission  as  an  investigating 
body  and  then  leaving  the  railroads,  as  every  person  else  in  the  United 
States,  to  the  courts. 


440  OAR  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  to  their  own  self-interest,  too? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Certainly.  I  do  not  know  as  my  opinions  are  of 
any  value,  but  we  had  yesterday  before  the  court  a  witness  in  regard 
to  a  cabbage  patch  up  in  Racine.  How  long  do  you  suppose  it  would 
have  been  before  that  gentleman  would  have  got  anything  like  a 
movement  of  his  cabbage  if  the  Government  were  running  the 
railways  ? 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  Government  ownership  is  not  under  discussion 
now. 

Mr,  Thompson.  But  if  it  were  controlling  the  proposition  as  to 
the  distribution  of  those  cars. 

Mr.  Marble.  Oh,  I  don't  know ;  the  gentleman  got  his  mail  every 
day,  I  have  no  doubt. 

Mr.  Thompson.  Mr.  Daly  explained  the  diflFerence  between  the 
mail  and  the  freight  cars. 

Mr.  AIarble.  AVe  have  not  time  to  discuss  Government  ownership 
now.  We  are  trying  to  find  out  why  private  ownership  does  not  give 
better  service.  I  want  to  ask  just  a  question  or  two  more.  Your  sal- 
ary comes  out  of  the  railroads'  treasuries,  does  it  not,  through  this 
General  Managers'  Association? 

Mr.  Thompson.  It  comes  from  the  general  managers. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  is  a  railroad  expenditure,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Thompson.  It  is  a  railroad  expenditure,  I  presume. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  managers  hire  you  in  their  association? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  duties  are  what?  Do  you  collate  these  figures 
and  draw  the  conclusions  from  them  and  prepare  the  literature?        \ 

Mr.  Thompson.  The  making  of  these  figures  is  but  a  part  or  inci- 
dent of  my  general  employment  to,  as  far  as  I  can,  present  a  fair 
view  of  the  railway  situation  and  the  questions  that  are  coming  up 
all  the  time  in  regard  to  all  matters.  Take  the  labor  situation,  for 
instance,  stating  exactly  what  their  relations  are  with  their  employees. 
That  was  the  original  purpose  of  my  employment. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  that  you  act  between  the  railroads  and  the  labor 
reporters  on  the  Chicago  papers? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Not  only  the  labor  reporters  of  Chicago,  but  all  of 
them ;  between  the  railroads  and  the  press,  more  or  less,  of  the  whole 
United  States. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  at  all,  on  this  salary,  visited  the  legislative 
bodies — Congress  and  the  State  legislatures — in  the  attempt  to  in- 
fluence their  action? 

Mr.  Thompson.  No  further  than  by  pamphlets  sent  to  the  legisla- 
tures and  to  Congress,  if  that  would  be  considered  a  visitation. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  act  in  the  nature  of  counsel? 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  have  never  visited  any  legislature  in  that  ca- 
pacity.    I  have  sent  pamphlets  to  them. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  would  be  thoroughly  justified,  I  think, 
in  considering  yourself  in  the  nature  of  an  attorney  acting  in  the 
presentation  of  these  facts  regarding  the  railroads. 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  should  judge  that  would  be  the  limit  of  the 
relationshij). 

Commissioner  Lane.  As  an  expert  before  a  court  would  be  re- 
garded as  associate  counsel  for  the  parties  employing  him. 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  was  not  much  of  an  expert  on  railway  affairs 


CAB   SHORTAQB.  441 

before  I  understood  this.  About  four  years  I  have  been  in  this 
capacity.  I  also  regret  very  much  the  fact  that  I  charged  you  with 
having  made  certain  statements,  but  I  think  I  was  justified  in  that 
statement  regarding  80  j^er  cent  of  the  Pennsylvania  cars  being  off 
their  road.  I  think  the  proof  was  given,  and  the  figures  that  I  gave 
were  from  their  books. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  the  purport  of  the  figures  given  by  Commis- 
sioner Lane  was  that  the  diversion  of  the  cars  is  an  evil  to  be  dealt 
with,  and  your  testimony  is  to  the  effect  that  you  also  have  come  to 
that  conclusion. 

Mr.  Thompson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  So  far  as  the  inference  drawn  by  the  Commissioner 
from  the  figures  is  concerned,  you  agree  with  it  entirely? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  simply  corrected  the  figures  quoted  by  him,  and 
his  conclusions  in  that  re^ird  you  agree  with  ? 

Mr.  Thompson.  Yes,  sn*. 

Conwnissioner  Harlan.  Ctnild  it  be  said  of  your  views  on  the  ques- 
tion of  car  shortage  that  you  expressed  those  of  the  ojjerating  officials 
of  the  railways? 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  should  hardly  think  so,  because  they  have  diffi- 
culty in  arriving  at  a  common  view.     I  have  difficulty  in  getting  at  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  If  you  have  anything  in  a  concrete  form 
which  gives  a  critical  expression  of  your  views,  we  would  like  to  have 
it,  both  as  to  the  remedy  and  as  to  the  evil  itself. 

Mr.  Thompson.  I  will  furnish  it  to  you  with  pleasure,  sir. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

G.  W.  Hotchkiss  was  called  as  a  witness  and,  being  duly  sworn, 
was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  Chicago,  111.? 

Mr.  Hotchkiss.  ^*ies,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  are  secretary  of  the  Illinois  Lumber  Dealers' 
Association? 

Mr.  Hotchkiss.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  Illinois  Lumber  Dealers'  Association  in- 
cludes both  wholesale  and  retail  dealers? 

Mr.  Hotchkiss.  No,  sir;  it  includes  the  retail  dealers  of  Illinois 
only. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  experience  as  to  transpor- 
tation matters  which  the  retail  dealers  of  Illinois  have  had  in  recent 
months  ? 

Mr.  Hotchkiss.  I  have  been  acquainted  with  that  for  the  last  ten 
or  fifteen  years. 

Mr.  Marble.  You,  yourself,  have  lx»en  a  luml)er  dealer? 

Mr.  Hotchkiss.  For  sixty  years;  I  have  been  connected  with  the 
trade  in  one  way  or  another  since  1847. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  practically  all  of  the  retail  dealers  of  the  State 
belong  to  this  association? 

Mr.  Hotchkiss.  About  one-half  of  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  they  scattered  as  to  locality,  so  that  an  expression 
of  their  opinion  would  be  an  indication  of  the  conditions  existing  in 
the  State  generally  I 


442  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  HoTTHKiss.  Through  everj'  section  of  the  State ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  you  acquainted  with  conditions  by  advising  with 
them  p)ersonally,  or  by  correspondence? 

Mr.  HoTCHKiss.  I  am  constantly  being  advised  by  them,  and  am 
in  contact  with  them. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  the  retail  lumber  dealers  of  this  State  securing 
transportation  facilities  to  a  sufficient  extent  from  the  railroads? 

Mr.  HoTCHKiss.  They  do  not  feel  that  they  are. 

Mr.  Marble.  Could  you  tell  us  of  the  nature  of  the  trouble  in  get- 
ting cars  when  they  want  them? 

Mr.  HoTCHKiss.  Their  difficulty  is  more  in  the  delay  of  cars  in 
transportation  than  in  any  other  respect,  and  in  demurrage  charges 
where  cai*s  are  bunched  upon  the  roads  and  too  many  delivered  at  a 
time,  and  that  causes  a  great  many  of  the  complaints  that  reach  me. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  they  have  difficulty  in  securing  the  prompt  move- 
ment of  cars  after  they  are  loaded;  that  is,  in  getting  them  started 
in  the  trains? 

Mr.  HoTCHKiss.  Very  great  and  constant  difficulty. 

Mr.  Marble.  Cars  stand  after  being  loaded  ? 

Mr.  HoTCHKiss.  Cars  stand  after  being  loaded;  and  as  an  instance, 
one  case  was  reported  to  me  last  spring  of  a  contractor  who  bought 
from  a  retailer — placed  an  order  with  a  southern  mill  for  a  large  bill 
of  exceptional  timber  that  had  to  be  cut  to  order.  There  was  a 
delay — after  the  order  was  accepted  and  shipped  and  put  upon  the 
cars  there  was  a  delay  of  four  months.  The  contractor  could  not  wait 
any  longer  and  the  retailer  had  to  shop  around  at  one  point  and 
another  in  Chicago,  Milwaukee,  and  other  places  to  pick  up  this 
extra  and  unusual  character  of  lumber  to  fill  the  bill.  Subsequently 
the  other  car  that  had  been  ordered  came  in  and  lay  upon  his  hands. 
He  then  had  no  use  for  it  and  he  perhaps  won't  be  able  to  sell  it  for 
years. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  it  a  delay  in  receiving  the*cars  in  which  to  load 
the  lumber? 

Mr.  HoTCHKiss.  That  delay  occurred  after  the  car  was  loaded,  in 
the  transportation  from  the  point  of  loading  to  the  point  of  destina- 
tion. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  any  portion  of  that  delay  on  the  track  where  the 
car  stood  while  being  loaded;  that  is,  was  there  any  delay  to  the  car 
l)efore  it  was  started  on  its  journey? 

Mr.  HoTCHKiss.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that.  The  bill  of  lading  was 
sent  on  to  this  purchaser,  and  he  expected  that  it  would  be  forwarded 
to  him  at  once. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  then  between  the  time  that  it  was  billed  and  the 
time  that  it  was  delivered 

Mr.  HoTCHKiss.  That  was  four  months. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  tell  us  what  road  it  was  that  made  that 
delay  ? 

Mr.  HoTCHKiss.  I  can  not;  I  have  no  knowledge,  of  course,  on  that. 
It  is  some  months  since  it  occurred.  In  regard  to  that  I  have  a  state- 
ment here  from  one  of  the  members  of  our  association  in  which  he 
gives  some  statistics  of  cars  which  show  that  the  average  length  of 
time  from  the  time  a  car  starts  to  the  time  it  reaches  its  destination 
is  from  thirty  to  forty-five  days. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  443 

Mr.  Marble.  From  wbiit  place? 

Mr.  HoTciiKisa.  A  general  distance,  in  the  South.  Here  is  a  car 
starting  from  the  South  on  June  7,  and  reaching  Chicago  June  11, 
which  is  a  very  fair  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Four  days? 

Mr.  IIoTciiKiss.  Four  days;  and  here  is  another,  starting  June  26, 
which  reaches  its  destinati<m  on  July  27. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  let  me  ask  you,  without  stopping  to  read  those, 
if  you  can  prepare  and  submit  to  us  tigures  which  will  show  the  time 
made  on  a  iunnl)er  of  cars,  the  shortest  time  and  the  longest  time, 
give  us  the  date  of  the  starting  of  the  car,  and  the  date  of  its  arrival 
at  destination,  and  the  road,  so  that  we  can  arrive  at  definite  informa- 
tion, and  submit  it  to  us  or  send  it  to  us? 

Mr.  HoTCiiKLss.  1  think  I  could  make  that  up  and  send  it  to  you. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes;  if  you  will  do  that  as  soon  as  con- 
venient. 

Mr.  Marble.  I^t  it  cover  as  much  of  the  territory  and  be  as  gen- 
eral an  illustration  of  exix»rience  in  that  line  as  you  can. 

Mr.  HoTtHKiss.  Here  is  a  letter  I  received  in  Octol)er,  and  I  took 
the  matter  it  refers  to  up  with  the  Car  Service  Association,  but  it 
did  not  amount  to  anything. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  5lay  I  ask  what  the  substance  of  it  is? 

Mr.  HoTCHKLss.  The  general  substance  is  that  there  was  not  relief 
from  the  imposition  of  delays  and  demurrage  for  the  cai-s  which  were 
used.  For  instance,  here  is  a  party  that  gives  me  a  list  of  some  12 
cars  which  were  all  bunched  on  him  in  a  very  short  time,  and  he  is 
unable  to  take  care  of  them. 

Commissioner  Hari^x.  Will  you  file  that  letter,  Mr.  Hotchkiss? 

Mr.  Hotchkiss.  I  will  file  a  cop^-  of  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  just  one  quastion,  Mr.  Hotchkiss. 
Does  this  delay  in  receiving  cars  and  the  delay  in  transit  result  in 
any  financial  loss? 

Air.  Hotchkiss.  In  very  great  financial  loss.  It  is  one  of  the 
prominent  subjects  of  discussion  in  our  annual  meeting — how  can  we 
overcome  the  delay?  I  tried  a  year  ago  to  find  .some  means  of  pre- 
venting it,  and  I  started  in  to  find  out  how,  and  many  parties  were 
then  discussing  it.  We  took  it  up  with  one  party  one  year  and  with 
another  party  the  second  time,  and  the  third  year  we  finally  asked  the 
Car  Service  Association  to  hold  a  meeting,  and  they  piomisetl  that 
thev  would  hold  a  meeting  at  the  railway  exchange.  I  was  invited, 
and  I  was  present,  and  our  jx'ople  were  lined  up  on  one  side  of  the 
table,  with  a  lot  of  railroad  men  representing  a  lot  of  roads  on  the 
other  side.  I  went  on  and  made  my  statement  of  our  case,  and  the 
other  gentlemen  made  statements  of  theirs,  and  I  asked  for  relief, 
and  a  gentleman  got  up  and  said,  "  Why,  the  car-service  men  have 
nothing  to  do  with  that."    And  that  is  alM)ut  all  you  can  get  out  of  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  the  conditions  have  not  improved? 

Mr.  Hotchkiss.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  any  suggestions  to  make  as  to 
the  proper  rules  to  b<'  adopted? 

Mr.  Hotchkiss.  The  general  sentiment  of  the  retail  trade  of  the 
city  and  of  the  State  is  tnat  there  should  be  some  reciprocal  arrange- 
ment which  would  apply  on  moving  the  cars  from  transfer  points. 


444  CAR  SHORTAGE. 

One  gentleman  in  conversation  the  other  day  told  me  that  one  car  of 
his  traveled  to  him  at  the  rate  of  5  miles  a  day,  and  he  told  me  of  the 
number  of  orders  that  he  had  lost. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  think  that  the  suggestion  of  recip- 
rocal demurrage  reflects  the  general  sentiment  of  the  people? 

Mr.  HoTCHKiss.  I  think  it  reflects  the  general  sentiment;  yes,  sir. 
I  have  a  letter  here  received  this  morning  from  one  of  our  promi- 
nent membei*s,  a  former  officer  of  the  association,  which  is  very  brief. 
He  says : 

Tlie  slow  inoveinent  of  cars  after  being  put  in  transit  is  a  question  wbich  cer- 
tainly demands  the  attention  of  the  luenitjers  at  this  time. 

It  seems  to  us  that  reciprocal  demurrage,  when  enacted  into  a  law, 
is  the  proper  solution  of  the  question. 
.  (The  witness  was  excused.) 

A.  L.  Berry,  called  as  a  witness,  and  being  duly  sworn,  was  exam- 
ined and  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  a  wholesale  coal  merchant? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  With  what  company? 

Mr.  Berry.  The  Berry  Coal  and  Coke  Company. 

Mr.  Marble.  From  what  States  do  you  secure  your  coal? 

Mr.  Berry.  Mostly  from  Pennsylvania  and  Illinois. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  that  coal  is  brought  through  Chicago?  ^ 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  is  reconsigned  to  what  States? 

Mr.  Berry.- Well,  most  of  it  would  go  away  to  the  Pacific  coast. 
Our  business  is  almost  altogether  on  long  hauls. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  it  a  special  class  of  business? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  AVhat  is  the  volume  of  your  business — ^how  many  cars 
per  year? 

Mr.  Berry.  Well,  I  could  not  say,  but  probably  1,500  to  2,000  cars, 
and  posibly  more. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  the  same  difficulty  in  getting  cars  and 
in  slow  transportation  that  has  been  testified  to  by  other  shippei-s? 

Mr.  Berry.  We  have,  especially  from  the  East.  The  Pennsylvania 
people  I  don't  think  have  furnished  us  a  single  car  for  several 
months,  except  private  cars  owned  by  the  people  who  mine  the  coal. 
We  arranged  with  them  to  get  in  more  of  their  cars  here  and  transfer 
them  to  west-bound  cars,  but  in  spite  of  that  we  did  not  get  a  single 
car  shipped  for  several  months. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  there  a  slow  movement  of  such  cars  as  you  did 
get? 

Mr.  Berry.  There  was  not  so  much  of  a  slow  movement  in  getting 
to  Chicago  as  there  was  after  we  got  the  cars  to  Chicago,  especially 
on  account  of  the  rehandling  of  cars  going  out  of  Chicago.  Conges- 
tion has  been  the  trouble.  I  have  a  record  in  my  pocket  of  cars,  after 
being  loaded  on  the  23d  day  of  October  and  shipped  over  our  roads, 
that  arrived  in  Chicago  on  the  30th  day  of  November,  five  weeks 
after  they  were  loaded. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  445 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  that  a  switching:  delay  to  any  extent? 

Mr.  Berry.  This  car  specially  had  to  be  transferred,  but  we  have 
records  on  other  cars  that  have  been  from  fifteen  days  to  three  weeks 
in  getting  over  our  tracks  out  of  Chicago. 

Commissioner  IIarl.an.  Mr.  Berry,  let  me  understand  that.  Coal 
arrives  from  the  East  by  what  road? 

Mr.  Berry.  By  the  Pennsylvania. 

Commissioner  Hari^n.  And  then  you  give  recqnsignment  orders 
to  some  point  in  the  West? 

Mr.  Berry.  No;  we  take  that  car  to  our  yard  because  if  it  is  over  a 
100,(K)0- pound  car  we  could  not  ship  it  West,  and  if  it  is  a  private  car 
belonging  to  the  mine  which  furnished  the  coal  we  transfer  that  to  a 
western-bound  car. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  transfer  it  yourself? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes,  and  then  sent  it  west.  A  car  left  our  yard  on  the 
23d  of  October,  and  left  Chicago  on  the  30th  day — ^the  bill  of  lading 
was  signed  on  the  30th  day  of  November. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  did  the  transferring  yourself? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  that  typical  of  other  instances  of  similar 
delays? 

^fr.  Berry.  I  think  that  the  delay  here  has  been  the  delay  in  ship- 
ping— I  think  that  has  been  the  trouble  in  the  last  few  months. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  is  the  average  delay  in  your  ship- 
ments ? 

Mr.  Berry.  I  should  judge  it  took  us  at  lea.st  ten  to  fifteen  days  on 
an  average  to  got  a  car  outside  of  Chicago  after  we  had  really  loaded 
it  and  got  it  started. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  After  you  had  given  orders  to  move  the 
loaded  car? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes;  and  got  it  out  of  our  yards;  but  after  it  gets  out 
of  our  yards  going  to  the  western  lines,  it  takes  from  ten  to  twenty 
days  at  least,  to  get  the  car  away. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  AVhat  effect  has  that  had  on  your  business? 

Mr.  Berry.  AVell,  it  has  had  the  effect  of  canceling  a  great  many 
orders,  and  demoralizing  the  business  to  a  great  extent. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  mean  by  that  that  it  has  brought  a 
financial  loss? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes;  in  many  cases  it  has. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  whether  other  coal  dealers 
suffer  in  the  same  way? 

Mr.  Berry.  Well,  possibly ;  I  don't  think  they  do  as  much,  because 
they  don't  transfer  coal  into  western  cars  as  much  as  we  do.  They 
ship  a  great  deal  from  the  mine. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Your  business  is  a  special  business? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  any  suggestion  to  make  as  to  the 
rules  to  be  adopted  or  legislation  to  be  passed  to  effect  a  remedy? 

Mr.  Berry.  1  want  first  to  correct  several  impressions  that  have 
been  made  relative  to  the  fact  that  the  railroad  companies  advise  that 
the  shipijers  are  the  people  who  hold  the  cars.  Now,  there  is  a  rule, 
just  as  tnis  gentleman  testified  a  moment  ago,  under  which  the  rail- 
road companies  allow  in  the  summer  time  seven  days  for  cars  stand- 


446  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

ing,  free  time  on  track  in  Chicago.  That  is  voluntary  with  them. 
In  other  ^Yords,  they  invited  the  shippers  of  coal  to  make  warehouses 
of  their  cars  to  the  extent  of  seven  days  time  in  Chicago. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  they  do  that  without  cost  to  the 
shipper  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes;  and  they  do  it  voluntarily,  and  then  they  go  right 
on  to  sa}'  that  the  shippers  are  holding  these  cars. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Could  you  get  along  with  a  less  time? 

Mr.  Berry.  Certainly,  we  could. 

Commissioner  Hari^\n.  How  much  time  would  satisfy  your  re- 
quirements? 

Mr.  Berry.  On  Illinois  coal,  as  has  been  testified  to  here  recently, 
with  a  very  few  exceptions,  a  car  could  be  sent  right  through. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Without  any  delay  in  Chicago  at  all? 

Mr.  Berry.  Without  any  delay  in  Chicago  at  all,  and  that  would 
obviate,  in  a  measure,  a  great  deal  of  trouble  and  delays  in  these 
large  centers. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  about  the  Pittsburg  coal? 

Mr.  Berry.  Now,  there  is  where  the  trouble  first  began.  You  un- 
derstand, in  consigning  coal  from  the  East 

Commissioner  Harlan,  How  much  time  would  satisfy  your  re- 
quirements on  Pittsburg  coal  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  On  coal  coming  from  the  East  I  w'ould  say,  in  the 
summer  time,  if  we  had  seventy-two  hours  here  it  would  be  sufficient, 
and,  under  some  circumstances,  we  would  just  as  soon  have  it  cut 
down  to  forty-eight  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  in  the  winter  time? 

Mr.  Berry.  And  in  the  winter  time  still  less,  if  necessary. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  To  be  brief,  then,  j'ou  agree  that  there  is 
an  abuse  in  this  matter  of  time,  and  that  it  would  be  to  your  advan- 
tage as  a  shipper  to  have  the  time  reduced  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes;  I  do.  I  say,  it  is  not  the  fault  of  the  shipper. 
It  is  simply  rivalry  between  the  railroads. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  We  understand  it  was  a  voluntary  move 
when  the  rule  was  established  by  the  railroads. 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  any  further  suggestions  to  offer? 

Mr.  Berry.  I  have  the  further  suggestion  that  a  large  part  of  the 
congestion  in  these  large  cities  could  be  avoided ;  that  could  be  ac- 
complished to  some  extent  by  not  making  the  through  rate  on  coal 
higher  than  the  sum  of  the  locals.  Yesterday,  or  the  day  before, 
there  w'ere  50  carloads  of  soft  coal  here  for  shipment  to  Montana. 
The  rate  to  St.  Paul,  locally,  is  $1.40.  The  Montana  common-point 
rate,  taking  it  from  St.  Paul  and  Minneajiolis  and  Miimesota  trans- 
fer, is  $6.  That  makes  $7.40.  The  through  rate  is  $7.50,  and  a  man 
can  have  his  50  cars  consigned  at  St.  Paul  on  a  $1.40  rate,  and  then 
the  railroads  get  the  rehandling  of  it  and  the  reshipping  of  it  again 
out  of  there,  and  he  will  do  that  to  save  his  10  cents,  while,  if  the 
through  rate  was  made  the  sum  of  the  two  locals,  which  has  always 
been  done,  and  which,  for  the  last  twenty  years,  has  been  a  maxim 
among  railroads,  that  the  sum  of  the  locals — the  through  rate  shall 
never  exceed  the  sum  of  the  two  locals — it  would  be  better. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is  to  say,  that  where  shippers  find 
that  the  sum  of  the  locals  makes  a  better  rate  than  the  through  rate, 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  447 

they  take  advantage  of  the  sum  of  the  locals,  and  that  requires  re- 
han'llin*r  of  the  car? 

Mr.  Berry.  We  are  obliged  to,  or  lose  the  order  of  the  man  in  St. 
Paul. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Now,  do  you  think  a  considerable  part  of 
this  trouble  comes  from  the  congastion  and  delays  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  Bkrry.  Yes;  I  think  it  does.  At  least,  I  think  a  part  of  it 
does.  The  local  rate  is  placed  at  a  figure  where  it  will  |)ay  the  rail- 
road company  for  handling  the  car.  That  is  supposed  to  be  the  high- 
est rate.  In  a  great  numy  instances  some  of  those  local  rates  are 
lower  than  the  through  rate,  and  the  consc<]uence  is  that  a  man  who 
has  sent  out  his  pria's.  and  things  of  that  kind,  is  basing  his  conclu- 
sion always,  as  we  have  done  for  the  last  twenty  years,  on  the  sum  of 
the  locals. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Why  don't  you  make  a  complaint  against 
the  through  rate  as  excessive? 

.Mi.  Berry.  I  have  written  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission 
in  regard  to  that,  and  I  have  a  letter  from  Mr.  Harlan  regarding 
that  very  subject. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  make  a  formal  complaint.  The  Com- 
mission has  already  indicated  its  mind  on  that  proposition  that  the 
presumption  will  1m'  against  the  through  rate  as  a  reasonable  rate  if 
it  exceeds  the  sum  of  the  locals.  We  have  given  every  indication  that 
we  could  to  the  railroads  of  the  country  that,  we  would  so  hold, 
and  we  have  even  gone  further  and  permitted  the  railroads  to  put  in 
reduced  through  rates,  which  would  not  exceed  the  sum  of  the  locals, 
upon  one  or  two  days  notice. 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes,  you  have  given  them  the  permission,  but  they  do 
not  take  advantage  of  it. 

Coumiissioner  Lane.  It  is  then  up  to  the  shippers  to  bring  a 
prompt  comj)laint  against  those  railroads,  or  those  rates,  and  it  is 
v\\)  to  every  man  wjio  uses  the  through  rate  to  make  his  claim  against 
the  railroad  for  the  difference  between  the  sum  of  the  locals  and  the 
through  rate. 

Mr.  Berry.  WTiat  is  the  outcome  of  that?  They  will  tell  you 
that  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  will  not  allow  them  to 
make  a  rate;  that  they  will  not  allow  them  to  apply  the  sum  of  the 
locals  wherever  the  through  rate  is  higher. 

Conunissioner  Lane.  What  difference  does  that  make?  If  you 
bring  your  complaint  Ix'fore  us  you  can  get  that  through  rate  reduced. 

Mr.  Berry.  Well,  that  is  not  necessary,  if  the  Commission  will  not 
give  it  to  us. 

O)mmissioner  IjANE.  Mr.  Berry,  you  had  better  get  your  official 
information  from  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commis.sion  on  that 
question. 

Mr.  Berry.  Your  letter  to  us  was  not  that  you  would  com{)cl 
the  railroads  to  make  up  a  through  rate  to  ecpial  the  sum  of  the  two 
locals,  but  that  you  could  not  compel  the  raih'oads  to  reduce  their 
through  rate,  as  I  understand  it. 

Conunissioner  Harlan.  Unless  the  shipper  filed  a  complaint.  We 
can  not  act  on  rates  until  the  shipp<'r  coiu|)laius.  Now,  if  the  shippers 
have  a  complaint  to  make  they  must  forward  it  to  the  Commission. 

Mr.  Berry.  Well,  I  am  one  of  tho-c  parties  that  complain  when- 
ever I  get  a  chance,  I  assure  you  of  thatt 


448  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  any  other  suggestion?  This 
(juestion  of  the  sum  of  the  locals  being  less  than  the  through  rate 
is  thoroughly  understood,  and  the  shippers  by  this  time  ought  to  un- 
derstand what  their  remedy  is.    Now,  is  there  any  other  suggestion  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  The  only  other  suggestion  is  what  I  was  trying  to 
bring  out  yesterday,  the  fact  that  they  want  the  railroads — the  rail- 
roads want  the  Commission  to  compel  them  to  make  these  rules 
about  consignments.  The  motive  with  which  that  is  done  is  not  to 
bring  about  a  remedy  at  all,  but  is  simply  on  account  of  the  rivalry 
between  the  companies.  They  won't  dare  when  it  comes  to  winter 
time,  when  they  want  those  cars  oftener  than  they  do  in  the  summer 
time — there  is  not  one  of  those  railroads  that  will  take  action  itself, 
but  they  hold  a  meeting  and  all  agree  upon  it  and  then  cut  out  the 
free  time.  The  great  trouble  in  these  propositions  is  this:  That  the 
railroads  could  bring  about  relief — there  is  no  question  about  that — 
but  they  don't  seem  to  care  to  do  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Why  do  you  bring  your  coal  that  is  des- 
tined to  the  west  to  Chicago  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  For  the  very  reason  I  told  you  a  moment  ago.  For 
our  western  shippers  we  can  not  get  a  car  that  we  can  send  through. 
We  have  to  take  those  iron  hopper  cars,  which  contain  106,000  to 
112,000  pounds,  and  send  them  back  to  the  man  who  owns  the  car. 
They  won't  let  them  go  west  of  Chicago.  We  have  to  bring  them 
up  here  and  then  transfer  them  into  a  western  car.  Our  western 
customers  will  not  receive  a  car  of  that  kind.  The  railways  will  not 
haul  it  out  there.  As  it  is  a  private  car,  we  have  to  transfer  the  coal 
here.  We  can  not  get  the  coal,  for  the  same  reason,  from  Pennsyl- 
vania and  must  get  western  cars  into  the  mines  for  loading  it.  We 
had  the  matter  up  several  months  ago  with  the  Illinois  Central  road, 
with  their  eastern  agent,  and  they  furnished  us  some  cars  at  the 
mines  for  loading.  They  had  cars  at  Pittsburg,  and  cars  at  different 
points,  but  we  never  could  get  the  Pennsylvania  to  put  those  cars  in 
at  the  mines  to  be  loaded,  and  the  only  thing  we  got  out  here  for 
months  was  these  large  iron  hopper  cars. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  The  Commission  got  all  that  information 
from  your  letter. 

Mr.  Berry.  One  other  point  about  the  movement  of  these  cars. 
They  say  that  a  fuel  car  only  movas  so  many  times  a  month.  They 
have  a  rate  between  the  railroads  here  of  40  cents  a  ton.  That  is  the 
minimum  rate  on  coal  coming  to  Chicago,  and  the  consequence  is  that 
that  car  moves  from  the  Illinois  Central  over  on  the  Lake  Shore  at 
40  cents  a  ton,  when  the  actual  movement  of  the  car  would  be  just 
the  same  as  though  they  sent  the  car  back  to  the  mine,  reloaded  it, 
and  sent  it  back  to  Chicago.  The  fact  of  the  coal  coming  to  Chicago 
and  bein^  shipped  in  this  way  has  been  encouraged  by  the  railroads. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  It  costs  you  $16  to  switch  a  car? 

Mr.  Berry.  A  small  car.  "NVlien  we  have  a  large  car,  like  a  100,000- 
pound  car,  it  would  cost  us  $20. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  long  have  you  been  required  to  pay 
switching  charges? 

Mr.  Berry.  A  year  and  a  half  or  two  years. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  "\Miat  is  the  distance  traveled  by  such  a 
car? 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  449 

Mr.  Berry.  Oh,  probably  about  6  miles;  sometimes  less  than  that; 
some  of  them  4  miles. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  there  any  complaint  about  that? 

Mr.  Berry.  I  don't  think  there  is  any  complaint  about  that;  I 
think  the  dealers  here  have  complained,  but  there  is  a  sort  of  an 
agreement  between  the  railroads  that  the  railroad  that  furnishes  the 
unloading  facilities  shall  have  the  mininmm  rate  to  Chicago,  which 
is  40  cents  a  ton  on  soft  coal. 

(The  witness  was  excused.) 

William  B.  Barr,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified 
as  follows: 

Mr.  Marbijb.  You  reside  in  the  city  of  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Barr.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  manager  of  the  Chicago  Terminal  Transfer 
Railway  ? 

Mr.  Barr.  General  freight  and  passenger  agent- 
Mr.  Marble.  And  that  Terminal  Transfer  Kailway  has  its  tracks 
entirely  within  the  city  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  Barr.  Not  entirely.  We  have  rails  from  McCook,  111.,  and 
Whiting,  Ind.,  into  Chicago.  A  small  portion  of  our  track  is  in 
Indiana ;  almost  all  of  it  is  in  Illinois,  ana  the  larger  portion  of  it  is 
within  the  city  limits. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  you  are  an  interstate  carrier? 

Mr.  Barr.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  miles  of  tracks  have  you  ? 

Mr.  Barr.  We  have  about  270  miles  of  main  line  and  sidings  and 
double  track. 

Mr.  Marble.  A  total  of  270? 

ISIr.  Barr.  I  think  it  is  about  270  miles ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  do  switching  between  the  different  railroads 
coming  into  the  city? 

Mr.  Barr.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  vou  receive  freight  from  industries  in  this  city 
for  transfer  to  the  railroads? 

Mr.  Barr.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  also  transfer  freight  between  different  in- 
dustries in  this  city? 

Mr.  Barr.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  handle  considerable  coal  business  to  the  in- 
dustries of  this  city  ? 

Mr.  Barr.  Yes;  we  handle  quite  a  large  amount  of  coal  for  con- 
sumption. There  are  about  184  industries  on  our  line,  all  of  which 
have  to  be  supplied  more  or  less,  and  we  supply  some  of  them  very 
largely. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  also  transfer  train  loads  of  coal  that  are  going 
through  Chicago? 

Mr.  Barr.  "ies,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  "What  length  of  time  are  those  trains  in  passing 
through  Chicago? 

Mr.  Barr.  A  carload  of  coal  that  we  handle — would  handle  for 
transfer — is  handled  through  in  about  twenty-four  hours, 
S.  Poc.  333,  5&-2 29 


450  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  transfer  some  reconsigned  cars,  do  j'ou? 

Mr.  Barr.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  what  length  of  time  are  reconsigned  cars  held 
in  Chicago? 

Mr.  Barr.  That  is  quite  a  difficult  thing  to  answer.  The  recon- 
signment  of  coal  needs  a  little  explanation.  Coal  that  is  mined  and 
turned  out  by  the  oi)erator  at  the  mines  is  forwarded  to  Chicago  on  a 
sort  of  blind  billing,  because  each  customer  is  going  to  take  so  much 
coal  per  day,  and  the  man  who  sells  the  coal  does  not  know  exactly 
how  nuich  he  is  going  to  take,  and  so  it  is  a  difficult  matter  for  him  to 
give  the  final  destination  of  that  coal.  He  may  have  a  contract  with 
one  concern  which  wants  10  cars  per  day,  and  circumstances  might 
arise  whereby  they  could  only  use  nve,  so  that  he  is  subjected  to  those 
conditions  when  his  coal  comes  here. 

That  coal  is  reconsigned,  and  we  make  a  reconsigning  charge  and 
publish  it  and  make  it  a  part  of  our  tariff,  in  order  to  obstruct  that 
practice  as  much  as  we  can. 

Mr.  Marble.  A\Tiat  is  the  amount  of  that  charge? 

Mr.  Barr.  It  is  $3  in  some  cases  and  $4  in  others. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  makes  the  difference  between  the  $3  and  the  $4? 

Mr.  Barr.  Well,  a  little  longer  haul. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  of  any  charge  at  40  cents  a 
ton,  such  as  Mr.  Berry  has  just  testified  to? 

Mr.  Barr.  I  have  been  told  of  a  charge  of  40  cents  a  ton,  which 
is  not — according  to  our  interpretation — exactly  a  reconsigning 
charge.  A  charge  of  40  cents  per  ton  is  sometimes  made  for  coal^ 
that  we  will  say  will  come  in  from  the  Illinois  mines.  That  is,  so' 
I  am  told  by  shippers.  That  goes  to  an  industrv.  we  will  say,  and 
suppose  it  comes  in  on  the  Chicago  &  Eastern  Illinois  Railroad  and 
then  goe^  to  some  other  line  for  delivery,  for  which  they  publish 
a  rate  per  ton  which  is  not  considered  a  switching  rate.  Therefore 
they  don't  call  that  a  reconsigning  charge,  although,  as  a  matter  of 
fact,  it  is  a  charge  for  reconsigning. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  It  is  the  same  service,  is  it  not?  It  ar- 
rives here  in  Chicago,  and  then  is  switched  over — it  is  just  about  the 
same  service  as  you  perform  for  $3. 

Mr.  Barr.  In  some  cases;  yes. 

Commissioner  Lane.  ^Miat  is  the  tariff  on  that  coal  from  Illinois 
mines  to  Chicago,  approximately? 

Mr.  Barr.  Well,  the  tariff  rates  run  all  the  way  from  67^  cents  to 
$1  a  ton. 

Commissioner  Lane.  AMiat  amount  of  haul  is  that? 

Mr.  Barr.  Well,  I  could  not  give  you  that  exactly,  but  I  should 
say  approximately 

Commissioner  Lane.  Take  the  67-cent  rate. 

Mr.  Barr.  I  should  think  about  80  miles. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Eighty  miles? 

Mr.  Barr.  I  should  think  so,  although  that  is  not  a  definite  state- 
ment. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Berry,  what  is  the  rate  from  Pittsburg 
to  Chicago? 

Mr.  Berry.  $2.05. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  the  distance  inside  of  Chicago,  where 
they  charge  40  cents  a  ton,  is  about  6  miles? 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  451 

Mr.  Barr.  Well,  I  have  not  before  me  just  the  points  to  which 
the  40-cent  rate  applies. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Mr.  Berry,  what  is  the  distance  on  that  rate? 

Mr.  Berry.  I  don't  think  it  would  average  over  4  miles  where  the 
charge  is  40  cents. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  value  of  that  coal  when  you  sell  it 
after  paying  this  rate  of  $2.05  and  40  cents? 

Mr.  Berry.  Do  vou  mean  when  it  is  added 

Mr.  Marble,  ^^hat  pronortion  of  the  stalling  value  of  the  coal  is 
the  transportation  charge: 

Mr.  Berry.  Alx)ut  one-fifth  of  it — one-fifth  is  the  switching  charge 
of  40  cents  a  ton.  Coal  soils  per  carload  at  $2  a  ton  in  Chicago,  and 
we  pay  40  cents  a  ton  to  get  it  switched  over  on  another  track. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  industries  which  you  must  supply  with 
coal  several  times  a  day? 

Mr.  Barr.  Well,  unless  conditions  are  peculiar,  ordinarily  we 
switch  about  once  a  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  that  necessity  of  frequent  supply  result  in 
detention  of  cars,  or  in  a  loss  of  movement  of  cars? 

Mr.  Barr.  Well,  not  seriously  to  us.  We  liegan  about  a  year  ago, 
and  we  carefully  investigated  into  what  was  our  maximum  capacity, 
so  far  as  yard  room  was  concerned,  and  we  don't  allow,  and  have  not 
since  that  time  allowed,  our  maximum  capacity  to  be  exceeded. 
Rather  tlum  do  that  we  place  an  embargo  on  coal  coming  in,  so  that 
people  who  are  receiving  are  not  allowed  to  blockade  the  yards  by 
more  coal  than  they  can  handle  promptly. 

Mr.  Marbijc.  Does  that  mean  that  you  have  such  small  facilities 
that  you  are  curtailing  shipments  coming  into  and  through  the  city 
from  what  they  would  otherwise  be? 

Mr.  Barr.  I  am  speaking  now  simplv  of  local  consumption. 

Mr.  Marble.  Well,  does  that  mean  that  you  are  reducing  the  coal 
supply  of  the  city  by  inadequate  facilities? 

Mr.  Barr.  Xo;  it  simply  means  that  we  are  not  allowing  coal  to 
come  in  and  obstruct  our  tracks,  if  they  can  not  take  care  of  it,  and 
coal  that  thev  do  not  recjuire  for  their  daily  needs. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  the  necessity  for  a  daily  supply  is  caused  by 
your  road — would  you  say  that  that  is  it — or  is  it  caused  by  a  lack  of 
warehouse  room  on  the  part  of  the  receivers? 

Mr.  Barr.  I  did  not  understand  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  necessity  for  a  supply  of  coal  so  frequently  and 
constantly — is  that  caused  by  inadequate  facilities  on  your  part,  or 
by  inadequate  facilities  on  the  part  of  receivers? 

Mr.  Barr.  Of  course,  our  facilities  are  not  as  great  as  we  could 
wish.  We  are  like  other  people  to-day;  our  facilities  have  been 
increased,  perhaps,  during  the  last  two  years  to  the  extent  of  600 
acres  of  yard  room,  particularly  our  special  coal  yard  at  Riverdale, 
which  has  l^een  increased  about  400  acres. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  make  any  suggestion  as  to  how  the  use  of 
cars  for  warehouses  in  Chicago  could  be  reduced? 

Mr.  Barr.  So  far  as  the  coal  trade  is  concerned,  something  could 
be  accomplished  by  the  abrogation  of  the  reconsignment  privilege 
and  by  through  biiling.  but  that  is  likely  to  bring  about  other  evils. 
It  would  materiallv  increase  the  movement  of  coal,  but  it  also  oper- 
ates against  the  mining  of  coal,  because  the  operator  who  produces 


452  OAR   SHORTAGE. 

the  coal  and  sells  it  can  not  be  assured  as  the  coal  is  turned  out  of  the 
final  destination.  If  you  take  away  the  entire  element  of  chance  in 
the  movement  of  coal,  you  obstruct  the  commercial  operations,  it 
seems  to  me,  almost  as  nnich  as  could  be  done  by  such  a  measure. 
We  will  not  permit  a  car  now  to  be  roconsigned  more  than  twice.  It 
used  to  be  the  fact  that  a  car  would  In?  reconsigned  as  many  as  seven 
times  or  eight  times — the  same  car.  Of  course,  that  has  brought 
about  a  very  material  improvement  on  our  rails. 
(The  witness  was  excused.) 

George  W.  Patten,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testi- 
fied as  follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  Patten.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  WTiat  is  your  business? 

Mr.  Patten.  I  am  in  the  grain  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  Connected  with  what  firm  ? 

Mr.  Patten.  I  am  a  member  of  the  firm  of  Bartlett,  Frazier  & 
Carrington. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  a  member  of  the  board  of  trade,  and  your 
firm  operates  both  public  and  private  elevators  in  this  city  ? 

Mr.  Patten.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Yours  is  a  very  large  receiving  firm,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Patten.  We  receive  a  great  deal  of  grain  and  we  handle  and 
buy  large  quantities  in  Chicago  and  in  the  country,  and  run  a  great 
many  country  stations. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  have  you  facilities  for  unloading  and  handlings 
and  storing  a  great  many  carloads  of  grain  in  the  course  of  a  year? 

Mr.  Patten.  We  operate  six  large  elevators  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  carloads  of  grain  do  you  unload  in  a  year, 
approximately  ? 

Mr.  Patten.  I  should  think  S!5.000,  it  might  be  30,000,  but  any- 
where from  20,000,000  to  35,000,000  bushels. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  clear  time  do  you  have  allowed  you  by  the 
railroad  companies? 

Mr.  Patten.  I  think  the  rule  is  five  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  of  that  do  you  use? 

Mr.  Patten.  In  the  past  year,  practically  no  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  One  day  ? 

Mr.  Patten.  I  think  the  larger  percentage  of  our  grain  is  unloaded 
the  day  it  arrives  at  the  elevator. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  at  all  use  cars  for  warehouses,  for  storage 
room? 

Mr.  Patten.  Why  the  direct  answer  to  that  would  be  no,  we  do  not. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  have  to  pay  any  demurrage? 

Mr.  Patten.  I  recall  of  but  one  case  in  the  past  twelve  months 
where  we  paid  demurrage.  We  had  a  strike  at  one  of  our  elevators 
in  July,  and  one  of  the  railroads,  I  think  it  was  the  Terminal,  charged 
us  $80  demurrage  during  that  strike.  Some  few  cars  were  held  over 
five  da  vs.  The  strike  lasted  four  days,  and  we  did  not  get  the  tracks 
cleaned  up  at  once,  and  I  think  they  charged  us  $80  demurrage. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  prepared  a  statement  of  figures  showing 
the  delay  of  cars  in  switching  operations  by  the  railroad  companies  ? 


CAR   SHOBTAOE.  453 

'Sir.  Patten.  Mr.  Boyd,  the  mana<rer  of  the  transpK)rtation  depart- 
ment, of  the  board  of  trade,  in  s|)eaUing  of  your  coiniii|jf  here,  asked 
what  our  experience  was  in  that  line.  I  sug«^'stod  that  our  books 
would  show  the  date  the  cars  were  loaded  in  the  country,  the  date  of 
their  arrival  in  Chicago,  the  date  of  insj)ection,  the  date  that  the  cat 
was  ordered  to  the  elevator,  and  when  it  was  unloaded;  and  I  have 
prepared  a  list  of  some  400  or  500  cars,  and  I  gave  that  list  to  Mr. 
Bovd,  and  understand  that  you  have  it  now. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Are  they  just  the  usual  run  of  cars,  or  are 
they  particular  cases? 

Mr.  Patten.  I  took  the  month  of  November,  taking  the  1st  day  of 
the  month,  and  cars  received,  I  think,  from  about  five  railroads.  I 
think  the  Burlington  was  one,  the  Northwestern,  the  Rock  Island, 
and  the  Chicago  and  Eastern  Illinois.  I  took  the  1st  day  of  Novem- 
ber, and  the  list  that  is  now  made  up — Mr.  Boyd  wished  this  made 
up — so  I  took  the  fii*st  40  cars  on  each  of  those  different  railroads 
from  the  1st  day  of  November  in  succession,  in  consecutive  order,  not 
picking  out  any  examples.  I  took  the  month  of  November,  because 
I  know  at  that  time  the  movement  of  grain  was  light,  and  it  was  a 
very  favorable  time  to  the  railroads. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Aljout  what  is  the  average  time  that  it  takes 
to  get  a  car  to  your  elevator  from  the  time  it  reaches  Chicago? 

Mr.  Patten.  It  depends  very  much  on  the  different  railroads.  The 
Illinois  Central  have  yards,  and  I  presume  from  there  it  would  be  a 
fraction  over  twenty-four  hours.  As  a  rule  each  railroad  will  ship 
or  switch  to  its  own  elevator  or  elevators  on  its  own  track  quicker 
than  they  will  to  elevators  that  are  on  others'  tracks. 

The  Chicago  and  Eastern  Illinois's  statement  is  much  worse  than 
any  other  statement.  The  Northwestern  Railway  owns  no  elevators 
themselves.  They  switch  to  a  number  of  elevators  and  deliver  most 
of  their  grain  through  these  terminal  switching  railroads,  like  the 
Chicago  Terminal  and  the  Belt  Line.  Tlieir  average,  I  should  think, 
would  run — well,  we  consider  two  days  about  the  average  time,  but  it 
frequently  runs  up  to  four  or  five  or  six  days,  and  I  think  the  record 
will  show  that  it  is  sometimes  as  high  as  eight  or  ten  days. 

The  Burlington  have  their  own  elevators,  but  they  switch,  however, 
through  the  lielt  to  our  elevators,  and  they  run  from  two  to  six  days, 
and  occasionally  as  high  as  ten  days.  It  you  will  allow  me  to  con- 
sult that  memorandum  I  can  tell  you  the  average.  It  runs  from  three 
to  five  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  have  not  got  it.     Mr.  Boyd  has  it. 

Mr.  Patten.  I  went  over  it  very  carefully.  In  fact,  it  is  brought 
to  my  attention  very  frequently,  the  subject  of  these  delays,  and 
within  the  last  three  months  I  have  written  letters  to  all  the  high 
railroad  officials,  calling  attention  to  the  slowness  with  which  grain 
was  moving  to  the  elevators. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Did  they  give  any  answer  to  you  showing  the 
reason. 

Mr.  Patten.  Practically  .so;  yes.  I  called  at  the  Illinois  Central 
this  morning  about  a  delay  this  very  day  to  the  movement  of  grain 
on  their  road,  and  their  answer  was  this  morning  that  to  a  certain 
extent  the  yards  were  congested  with  coal  and  freight  and  one  thing 
and  another,  and  I  found  out  this  morning  that  they  did  have  a 


454  OAR  SHORTAGE. 

wreck.  Two  freight  trains  ran  into  each  other  at  some  critical  point 
and  demoralized  the  service.  They  Avere  somewhat  tied  up  on  that 
account  in  their  switching  operations  yesterday.  Tliose  thmgs  hap- 
pen and  can  not  be  helped,  I  guess. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  anything  further? 

Mr.  Patten.  Well,  the  question  that  Mr.  McKenzie  asked,  if  I 
could  offer  any  solution  which  would  tend  to  the  prompt  handling  of 
grain  through  the  yards  in  Chicago.  I  told  him  it  was  a  hard  ques- 
tion and  I  hardly  thought  that  a  grain  man  was  competent  to  run  a 
railroad.  That  is  a  special  business  by  itself,  but  it  has  seemed  to  me 
that  the  use  and  abuse  of  cars  by  the  railroads  themselves  is  one  of 
the  great  weaknesses  of  the  whole  transaction.  The  per  diem  is  so 
small  that  the  average  railroad  that  needs  the  car  keeps  it  indefinitely, 
and  refuses  to  allow  it  to  go  back  to  the  owning  road,  and,  in  mj 
opinion,  some  of  the  larger  railroads  to-day  are  very  badly  handi- 
capped by  the  abuse  of  their  cars  by  the  smaller  systems. 

I  think  the  Illinois  Central  to-day  has  some  10,000  cars  of  its  own 
on  hand  less  than  it  has  of  foreign  cars.  We  are  suffering  oui-selves 
to-day,  I  have  no  doubt,  from  the  misuse  of  the  cars  of  the  Illinois 
Central  Railroad. 

If  they  could  agree  among  themselves— if  the  railroads  could  agree 
to  make  this  rule  for  the  use  of  their  cars  so  that  the  weaker  roads 
would  either  provide  their  own  equipment  or  return  the  equipment, 
that  would  be  the  only  solution  of  that  great  problem. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  a  feeling  among  grain  men  that  the 
rule  regarding  reciprocal  demurrage  should  be  adopted  ? 

Mr.  Patten.  I  have  heard  that  question  discussed  a  great  deal  by  v 
railroad  men  and  by  grain  men.  It  seems  to  me  to  be  a  very  radical 
step  to  take.  The  question  is  what  the  railroads  can  do  and  how  they 
ought  to  do  it.  I  think  they  should  be  criticised,  perhaps,  in  refer- 
ence to  the  movement  of  grain.  To-day  climatic  conditions  are  favor- 
able, and  yet  the  Michigan  Central  is  taking  to-day  from  fifteen  to 
seventeen  days  to  haul  a  car  of  grain  from  Chicago  to  Buffalo.  The 
Boston  and  Albany  to-day  is  badly  congested.  In  fact,  the  roads 
from  Chicago  east  are  giving  such  poor  service  that  while  we  would 
ordinarily  take  contracts  to  deliver  grain  to  ocean  vessels,  we  are 
loath  to  do  so  because  we  are  liable  to  heavy  expense,  owing  to  the 
fact  that  we  may  not  be  able  to  get  the  freight  to  the  ocean  vessels  in 
time. 

Within  three  or  four  days  one  of  the  large  ocean  lines  in  Boston 
wished  some  freight  to  go  on  the  23d  of  January.  This  was,  I  think, 
on  Monday  or  Tuesday  of  this  week.  After  looking  the  situation 
over  carefully  we  refused  to  make  the  contract  for  fear  that,  even  if 
they  furnished  the  cars  in  Chicago,  they  would  not  he  able  to  deliver 
the  grain  by  the  23d  of  January,  owing  to  the  congestion  and  the  slow 
movement  of  the  grain  en  route.  It  does  seem,  allowing  for  the  fact 
that  the  railroads  charge  all  the  shippers  of  the  country  so  sharply 
on  demurrage,  that  they  should  take  some  care  not  to  occupy  three  or 
four  or  five  times  as  long  en  route  themselves  as  is  necessary  and  three 
.or  four  or  five  times  more  time  than  they  have  allowed  us  after  they 
have  procured  the  grain.  It  does  seem  wrong,  but  I  question  the  pro- 
priety of  making  a  law  that  would  compel  the  railroad  to  haul  it  so 
many  miles  per  day.     It  looks  like  a  very  radical  action.     Wliether 


Cab  shortage.  455 

it  would  work  out  to  the  benefit  of  the  whole  country  I  am  not  sure. 
It  might  result  in  the  railroads,  even  if  they  could  be  bn)nght  to  it, 
getting  into  a  bad  mix  up. 

Of  course,  the  traffic  management  and  the  actual  handling  of  the 
cars  are  in  two  departments.  I  have  often  thought  that  it  would 
be  a  good  thing  if  they  could  be  brought  closer  together.  Of  course, 
they  both  report  to  the  president.  The  solicitor  is  always  anxious  to 
get  business,  and  he  is  working  for  business,  sometimes  beyond  the 
capacity  of  his  road  to  handle  it.  I  have  often  thought  if  the  rail- 
roads could  bring  the  two  departments  together,  and  stop  the  solicit- 
ing, or  perhaps  stop  the  taking  of  business  when  they  have  got  all  the 
busint»ss  they  can  handle,  that  it  would  be  better.  It  they  would  han- 
dle their  atfaii-s  a  little  more  intelligently  in  that  way  I  think  bet- 
ter results  would  be  produced.  For  instance,  if  they  would  do  like 
the  street  car  does  when  it  is  full,  put  up  a  sign  to  that  effect  and  take 
no  more  passengers. 

A  Voice.  Where  do  street  cars  do  that — in  heaven  ? 

Mr.  Patten.  The  railroads  don't  even  put  up  a  sign. 

Commissioner  Lane.  They  have  put  up  a  sign  in  a  good  many 
places,  and  there  is  a  good  deal  of  complaining  about  that. 

Mr.  Patten.  I  don't  believe  it  is  possible  for  any  railroad  to  handle 
all  the  business  that  can  be  given  it  in  one  day,  or  in  any  one  week. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Especially  in  the  months  of  September  and 
October? 

Mr.  Patten.  Duriufj  certain  months,  when  the  farmers  are  free 
sellers  of  grain,  it  would  be  almost  impossible. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  suppose  that  you  tried  to  work  through 
this  volume  of  business  in  some  way.  Suppose  that  a  rule  could  be 
made  pliable  so  that  a  shipper  at  one  time  would  be  entitled  to  demand 
a  car  to  be  given  to  him,  we  will  say,  upon  ten  davs'  notice,  and  that 
in  the  more  congested  periods,  the  railroad  woul(i  have  a  leeway  of 
twenty  days;  could  a  rule  be  made  so  as  to  work  with  justice  to  the 
railroad  ? 

Mr.  Patten.  I  would  hesitate  to  say  so.  There  is  no  question  but 
that  the  railroad  men  of  America  are  using  the  best  efforts,  and  the 
railroads  are  hiring  the  best  possible  men  they  can  possibly  find  to 
manage  their  business,  and  I  can  not  conceive  of  any  railroad  not 
doing  the  best  it  can  with  the  facilities  it  has  got  at  all  times. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  the  objection  made  by  Mr.  Krutt- 
schnitt,  who  is  certainly  one  of  the  ablest  and  brightest  railroad  men 
in  the  United  States,  was,  as  I  remember  it,  that  it  could  not  be  but 
unfair  to  the  railroad  which  permitted  its  cars  to  go  off  of  its  line. 
He  raised  no  objection  to  the  demurrage  plan,  so  far  as  it  applied  to 
the  one  line  of  the  initial  carrier. 

Mr.  Patten.  Well,  I  am  sure  the  shipixM-s  would  be  perfectly  will- 
ing to  accept  a  proposition  of  that  kiml.  We  certainlv  could  not 
object  to  a  railroad  agreeing  to  move  a  car  so  many  miles  per  day. 
One  of  the  greatest  troubles  that  the  grain  shipper  has  is  the  irregu- 
larity of  the  movement  of  grain  at  times.  It  puts  the  business  in  a 
very  hazardous  position.  I  saw  a  statement  recently  that  the  New 
York  shippers  have  lost  half  a  million  dollai*s  this  year,  owing  to 
slow  movement  of  grain. 

Conmiissioner  Lane.  Do  you  find  it  impossible  to  get  your  cars  to 
the  eastern  ports? 


456  Cab  shortage. 

Mr.  Patten.  To  move  in  time  to  make  ocean  connections  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  find  it  hard  to  get  freight  to  them,  is 
that  it? 

Mr.  Patten.  Yes ;  that  seems  to  be  the  difficulty. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  find  it  hard  to  get  freight  to  them;  is 
there? 

Mr.  Patten.  Coming  this  way,  not  so  much.  Of  course,  the 
answer  we  frequently  get  in  asking  for  cars  is  that  they  are  unable 
to  get  their  cars  west,  and  hence  it  is  difficult  to  give  us  the  cars  that 
we  need  for  shipment  east.  We  bring  no  grain  from  the  east.  Our 
grain  business  entirely  goes  east.  This  is  a  statement,  and  I  think 
perhaps  that  Mr.  Marble  can  give  you  a  digest  of  that  quicker  than  I 
can.  (Referring  to  statement  prepared  by  Mr.  Patten  and  given  to 
Mr.  Boyd.)     Was  there  any  question  you  wished  to  ask  me? 

Mr.  Marble.  No.  You  said  you  wanted  to  consult  that  statement, 
and  I  have  it  here  now.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  Lake  Shore 
road  recently  sent  out  word  to  its  solicitors  for  business  to  cease  solic- 
iting business  and  go  to  hunting  cars  ? 

Mr.  Patten.  I  think  one  of  their  young  men  told  me  that  they  had 
just  taken  that  course. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  was  the  New  York  Central  lines? 

Mr.  Pattex.  Yes.  This  statement  here  shows  that  211  cars  out  of 
267  were  unloaded  the  same  day  they  were  received  at  the  elevator; 
44  cars  were  unloaded  in  one  day,  10  cars  in  two  days,  and  2  cai"s  in 
three  days.    That  is  all  of  the  267  cars. 

Commissioner  Lane.  That  does  not  look  very  much  as  if  you  were 
holding  up  the  railroads. 

Mr.  Patten.  I  think  it  is  permissible  to  make  that  statement.  I 
noticed  in  the  papers  this  morning  that  Mr.  Daly  claimed  that  the 
grain  shippers  were  slow  in  unloading  grain.  Now,  in  my  experience 
in  running  these  elevators,  I  recollect  of  but  one  case  where  there  was 
any  serious  delay  in  the  elevators  in  a  number  of  years.  That  was 
one  of  those  cases  where  there  had  been  a  very  slow  movement  of 
grain  for  a  number  of  months,  and  the  cars  had  accumulated  from 
the  grain  belt — one  of  those  periods  which  strikes  the  farmers  and 
which  no  one  as  yet  has  been  able  to  explain,  but  the  farmers  from 
Nebraska  to  Ohio  commence  to  sell  almost  at  the  same  time. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Just  read  the  first  eight  or  ten  of  those  items, 
the  time  that  it  took  from  the  time  that  you  ordered  the  car  from  the 
elevators  to  the  time  that  the  car  was  delivered  to  the  elevator. 

Mr.  Patten.  This  is  the  portion  relating  to  the  Chicago,  Burling- 
ton and  Quincy.  The  car  was  ordered  to  the  elevator  on  October 
30  and  arrived  at  the  elevator  the  5th  of  November;  the  next  car 
was  ordered  to  the  elevator  on  the  3d  of  November,  arrived  on  the 
8th,  and  was  unloaded  on  the  8th.  The  first  car  I  referred  to,  which 
arrived  at  the  elevator  on  the  5th,  was  unloaded  on  the  5th.  The 
next  car  was  ordered  on  the  3d,  arrived  at  the  elevator  on  the  8th, 
and  was  unloaded  on  the  8th.  The  next  was  ordered  on  the  5th, 
arrived  at  the  elevator  on  the  5th,  and  was  unloaded  on  the  5th. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  take  the  next  railroad. 

Mr.  Patten.  The  Chicago  Great  Western. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Take  the  first  four  items. 

Mr.  Patten.  The  order  was  given  to  switch  it  on  the  27th,  the  car 
was  delivered  at  the  elevator  on  the  30th,  and  was  unloaded  on  the 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  457 

30th.  For  the  next  car  the  order  was  given  to  switch  to  the  elevator 
on  the  2Gth,  arrived  at  the  elevator  on  tlie  30th,  and  was  unloaded  on 
the  same  day.  The  next  car,  ordered  to  the  elevator  on  the  27th, 
arrived  at  the  elevator  on  the  30th,  and  was  unloaded  on  the  30th. 

Now  the  Chicago  and  Eastern  Illinois.  Ordered  to  the  elevator 
on  the  7th,  arrived  on  the  14th,  and  was  unloaded  on  the  14th.  Car 
ordered  to  the  elevator  on  the  9th,  arrived  at  the  elevator  on  the  15th, 
and  was  unloaded  on  the  same  day.  The  next  car  ordered  to  the  ele- 
vator on  the  10th,  arrived  on  the  15th,  and  was  unloaded  the  same  day. 
The  next  car  ordered  to  the  elevator  on  the  l*2th,  arrived  at  tlie  eleva- 
tor on  the  IGth  and  was  unloaded  on  the  16th.  The  Chicago  and 
Eastern  Illinois  is  one  of  the  worst.  They  have  a  long  switch,  how- 
ever. 

The  Northwestern's  time  here  nms  about  two  days.  IMie  first  4 
cai^s  were  ordered  on  the  2d,  arrived  on  the  5th,  and  were  unloaded 
on  the  same  day. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  will  file  that  statement  with  your  t&s- 
timony. 

Mr.  Patten.  Yes,  sir. 

(The  same  is  hereto  annexed  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1  to  Mr. 
Patten's  testimony.") 

The  witness  was  excused. 

George  E.  Marcy,  called  as  a  witness,  having  been  duly  sworn,  tes- 
tified as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  Your  name  is  George  E.  Marcy  ? 

Mr.  Marcy.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  manager  of  the  Armour  Grain  Company? 

Mr.  Marcy.  President  of  the  Armour  Grain  Company. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  active  management  of  its  business? 

Mr.  Marcy.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  a  grain  receiving  company  ? 

Mr.  Marcy.  Grain  hancfiing. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  operate  elevators  in  this  city  ? 

Mr.  Marcy.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many  cars  of  grain  per  year  do  you  receive 
and  unload? 

Mr.  Marcy.  I  could  hardly  make  a  guess  at  that ;  it  depends  upon 
crop  conditions.  Sometimes  it  might  run  10.000,000  busnels;  other 
times  it  would  get  up  to  20,000,000  bushels. 

Mr.  Marble.  Twenty  million  bushels  would  be  20,000  cars,  would 
it  not? 

Mr.  Marcy.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marbij:.  Can  you  go  ahead  and  make  a  statement,  or  have  you 
prepared  a  statement  relative  to  the  time  cars  are  held  by  your  com- 
pany in  unloading,  and  delays  in  unloading? 

Mr.  Marcy.  The  request  was  made  by  Mr.  Boyd  that  I  make  up  a 
short  statement.  In  making  it  up  we  took  at  random,  in  October  and 
Noveml>er,  113  care.  We  did  not  pick  out  any  special  cars — we  just 
took  the  books  and  took  the  first  113  cars  we  came  to.  We  picked 
them  out  by  taking  some  cars  from  Octoljer  5  to  October  8,  and  Octo- 
ber 20  to  October  22,  and  November  11  to  13;  November  2G  to  28. 
That  is,  we  took  the  first  113  cars  we  came  to. 


458  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Was  there  any  selecting  ? 

Mr.  Marcy.  No,  sir;  we  just  took  the  car  numbers  and  we  looked 
up  the  report  afterwards,  and  we  have  given  you  the  records.  There 
probably  are  some  cases  that  might  be  a  great  deal  worse,  and  some 
cases  not  so  bad. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  you  have  got  a  summary  of  that 
made  up? 

Mr.  Marcy.  Yes.  We  ordered  76  of  these  113  cars  on  the  same  day 
we  received  the  railroad  notice.  We  ordered  19  of  them  one  day 
afterwards;  17  of  them  two  days  afterwards,  and  1  car  three  days 
afterwards.    That  is,  we  gave  the  road  disposition  to  them. 

We  then  checked  up  the  railroad  records  to  see  the  time  of  delivery 
to  connecting  lines,  after  w^e  had  given  the  orders  on  such  cars  as 
were  sold  to  go  to  other  industries  or  to  other  elevators  than  our  own. 

There  were  58  out  of  113  sold  that  way,  and  we  find  2  of  these  cars 
were  delivered  the  same  day,  9  cai-s  in  one  day,  16  cars  in  two  days, 
10  cars  in  three  days,  3  cars  in  four  days,  10  cars  in  five  days,  1  car 
in  six  days,  6  cars  in  seven  days,  and  1  car  in  fourteen  da3's.  The 
balance  of  the  cars,  55,  were  sent  to  our  own  elevators.  These  eleva- 
tors are  on  the  tracks  of  the  roads  which  brought  the  grain  in.  They 
delivered  9  cars  to  the  elevator  one  day  afterwards ;  19  cars  two  days 
afterwards;  12  cars,  three  days;  1  car,  four  days;  1  car,  five  days;  6 
cars,  nine  days ;  7  cars,  seven  days. 

We  unloaded  them  after  they  had  been  put  in  our  yards  as  follows : 
Thirty-four  cars  the  same  day;  12  cars,  one  day;  7  cars,  two  days; 
2  cars,  three  days. 

In  that  connection  I  might  say  that  I  think  this  sheet,  as  thev  have 
made  it  up,  really  shows  a  better  record  than  they  have  had  for  the' 
last  month  or  so. 

Commissioner  Lane.  A  better  record  so  far  as  the  railroads  are 
concerned  or  you  ? 

Mr.  Marcy.  So  far  as  they  are  concerned,  a  better  record  for  the 
roads  in  their  handling  of  the  traffic.  The  roads  seem  to  be  unable  to 
handle  our  stuff  at  terminals  with  any  degree  of  promptness.  It 
causes  a  very  bad  delay  and  great  injury  to  us  as  well  as  to  people  in 
the  country. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Does  this  react  upon  the  farmer  in  the 
country  to  give  him  any  less  in  the  price  of  his  grain  ? 

Mr.  Marcy.  Not  directly ;  where  the  loss  comes  in  to  the  man  in  the 
country,  he  buys  the  grain  from  the  farmer  and  sells  it,  and  ships  it 
in  here.  He  is  out  his  interest  while  the  grain  is  being  handled  and 
unloaded,  he  is  paid  for  it,  so  that  there  is  a  slight  loss  of  interest. 

Then  in  other  cases  grain  deteriorates  if  it  is  in  a  car  too  long, 
especially  new  grain,  corn  like  we  have  this  year.  Recently  we  had 
one  car,  just  the  other  day,  off  the  Burlington  road.  That  road  had 
neglected  to  deliver  the  car  to  the  Northwestern  road,  and  I  think  it 
was  something  like  twenty  days  before  the  Northwestern  road  got  the 
car.  They  took  about  three  or  four  days  to  put  it  down  to  our  ele- 
vator. When  the  car  got  there  it  was  black  on  account  of  the  delay. 
There  are  some  losses  which  come  along  in  that  way.  Then,  of 
course,  the  country  dealers  lose  by  not  having  these  cars  unloaded  and 
put  back,  so  that  they  can  reship  more  grain. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  the  time  that  it  takes  after  the 
grain  is  taken  out  of  the  car  at  your  elevator  for  the  car  to  get  again 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  459 

in  circulation  in  the  country?  How  long  does  it  take  to  get  out  of 
Chicat^o? 

Mr.  Makcv.  That  is  handled  very  promptly  for  the  reason  that  the 
roads  have  their  freight  houses  so  i)adly  blockaded  with  merchandise 
that  they  keep  engines  waiting  right  at  the  elevator,  and  almost  the 
moment  the  car  is  unloaded  they  grab  it  and  take  it  to  some  coal  yard 
where  it  is  needed  for  coal.  Tne  delay  in  taking  empties  away  Jrom 
the  elevator  is  not  very  great. 

Commissioner  Lane,  u  hy  shouldn't  they  be  as  anxious  to  get  the 
car  to  vou,  inasmuch  as  you  uidoad  it  so  quickly? 

Mr.  IVIarcy.  Thev  are  just  as  anxious,  but  they  do  not  seem  to  be 
physically  able  to  do  it.  Really  the  roads  are  more  anxious  than  the 
grain  people  themselves  are  to  get  the  grain,  or  nearly  as  much  .so. 
Of  course  they  have  a  mutual  interest — both  the  grain  men  and  the 
I  ailroads — in  making  the  work  of  unloading  just  as  quick  as  possible. 
The  last  year  or  two  it  seems  to  be  almost  impossible  for  the  roads  to 
handle  their  terminals. 

They  seem  to  be  handling  more  business  or  else  they  seem  to  have 
worn  out  their  engines.  At  any  rate  they  don't  seem  to  be  able  to  get 
them  fast  enough  so  as  to  take  care  of  the  increase  in  business.  They 
have  not  side  tracks  enough,  and  they  really  seem  to  be  demoralized 
not  only  here  in  Chicago,  but  the  same  thing  applies  to  Milwaukee. 
I  have  had  recently  reports  from  our  people  m  Milwaukee  to  the 
effect  that  they  would  have  15  or  20  or  30  cars  out  that  they  could  not 
^et  into  the  elevator,  and  they  would  be  out  seven  or  nine  days,  right 
m  the  city  of  Milwaukee,  and  our  people  would  have  to  wait  to  get 
the  grain  and  beg  the  road  to  send  cars  down.  It  seems  to  be  abso- 
lutely impossible  for  the  roads  to  turn  themselves  around  so  as  to  set 
the  cars  for  them  to  unload. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  situation  in 
tjralveston? 

Mr.  Marcy.  No,  sir;  nothing. 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  do  not  ship  anything  through  there? 

Mr.  Marcy.  No,  sir 

Commissioner  Lane.  Did  you  mean  that  this  statement  was  not 
(juite  fair  to  the  railroads,  that  their  delays  have  really  been  less  than 
is  shown  here? 

Mr.  Marcy.  No;  I  think  it  is  more  than  fair  to  the  roads.  I 
Ihink  if  you  will  take  all  the  cars  in  October  and  November,  and  say 
»  \('n  in  DecemlHM',  I  tliink  the  records  would  show  a  larger  average  of 
ili'lay  as  far  as  the  road  was  concerned  than  this  statement  shows. 
Of  course  that  is  simply  the  statement  of  an  opinion  in  my  mind,  be- 
(  ause  I  have  had  so  much  trouble  in  getting  our  stuff  into  the  ele- 
vator. Just  at  the  close  of  navigation  we  have  been  very  anxious  to 
get  in  all  the  grain  we  could  so  as  to  ship  it  away  l>efore  the  season 
clost^s,  and  we  have  had  more  or  less  trouble  in  getting  our  stuff  in 
there,  and  I  have  formed  my  opinion  from  that  and  my  general  ex- 
})erience.     This  statement  was  made  just  at  random. 

Commissioner  Laxe.  Will  you  file  that  with  the  Commission? 

Mr.  Marcy.  Yes,  sir. 

(The  same  is  hereto  annexed  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1  to  Mr. 
Marcy's  testimony.) 

Commissioner  Lane.  Are  there  any  other  questions? 

Mr.  Marcy.  I  might  add  that  up  to  two  years  ago,  when  we  bought 


460  CAB   SHOBTAGE. 

grain  or  ordered  grain  to  our  elevators,  we  always  counted  that  the 
next  morning  that  ^ain  would  be  in  our  elevator  yard  and  we  would 
be  ready  to  unload  it,  and  we  could  count  on  it  and  make  our  arrange- 
ments accordingly;  but  last  year  and  this  year  the  reverse  has  been 
true.  Now,  we  always  count  that  it  will  be  two  or  three  or  four  or 
possibly  five  days  before  the  grain  will  get  around,  figuring  that  the 
roads  will  be  very  much  slower. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr,  Marcy,  have  the  roads  carried  more  grain  into 
Chicago  this  year  than  the  previous  year? 

Mr.  Marcy.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then,  this  ^eat  increase  of  business  that  we  hear 
about  is  not  in  the  grain  busmess  ? 

Mr.  Marcy.  No,  sir;  it  is  not. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  what  is  the  average  time  that  you  take  for 
unloading  cars  after  you  get  them  at  the  elevator,  just  to  put  it  in 
one  sentence? 

Mr.  Marcy.  I  do  not  think  to  exceed  twenty-four  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  now,  to  put  it  just  in  one  sentence  again,  what 
is  the  average  time  that  it  takes  you  to  get  grain  to  the  elevator  by 
the  railroads  after  you  give  the  order? 

Mr.  Marcy.  I  should  think  over  the  tracks  of  the  roads  on  which 
our  elevator  is  located,  grain  which  comes  in  on  those  roads,  three 
days ;  coming  over  the  connections,  five  days  to  ten  days, 

Mr.  Marble.  Over  tracks  on  which  your  elevators  are  located, 
three  Jays,  and  over  other  roads,  five  to  ten  daj'S  ? 

Mr.  Marcy.  Five  to  ten  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Patten,  if  the  Commission  desires,  could  you 
testify  as  to  the  conditions  at  New  Orleans? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes;  we  would  like  to  know  what  the  condi- 
tions are  there  and  upon  whom  the  responsibility  re-sts, 

Mr.  Patten.  I  am  not  at  all  familiar  with  Galveston,  but  at  New 
Orleans  we  have  been  doing  business  that  way  for  ten  years,  the  facili- 
ties of  the  Illinois  Central  (the  only  line  with  which  we  do  business) 
are  excedingly  fine.  The  Illinois  Central  terminals  at  New  Orleans 
are  the  finest,  I  think,  in  America.  I  do  not  think  there  can  be  any 
criticism  of  the  Illinois  Central  road  at  New  Orleans,  and  it  is  the 
only  road  we  do  any  business  with  there. 

James  Bradley,  called  as  a  witness,  having  been  duly  sworn,  tes- 
tified as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  the  city  of  Chicago,  and  are  a  member 
of  the  Nye- Jenks  Grain  Company  ? 

Mr,  Bradley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  operate  elevators  here  and  receive  carload  ship- 
ments of  grain  and  unload  them  at  your  elevators? 

Mr.  Bradley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many  cars  a  year  do  you  receive? 

Mr.  Bradley,  Well,  I  could  not  say  exactly. 

Mr,  Marble,  Can  you  approximate  it  for  the  last  year? 

Mr,  Bradley.  I  should  say  between  4,000  and  5.000. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  give  the  average  length  of  time  that  it  has 
taken  you  the  last  year  to  unload  cars  at  your  elevators  after  receiving 
them? 


CAB   SHOBTAGE.  461 

Mr.  Bradley.  We  make  it  a  point  to  unload  on  the  same  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  Do  you  succeod  in  doing  so  ? 

Mr.  Bradley.  Almost  entirely. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^VTiat  proportion  of  the  cars  are  an  exception  to  that? 

Mr.  Bradley.  Well,  where  the  elevator  is  not  in  operation,  and  we 
have  two  or  three  cars  to  put  into  the  yard,  we  will  leave  them  over 
until  the  next  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  Not  longer  than  until  the  next  day? 

Mr.  Bradley.  Not  longer  than  until  the  next  day. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  then  it  is  because  the  supply  of  cars  is  so  small 
that  you  consider  it  does  not  pay  to  start  the  elevator  before  the  next 
day? 

Mr.  Bradley.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all  the  delay  you  make? 

Mr.  Bradley.  That  is  all  the  delay  we  make. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  what  time  is  consumed  after  you  give  the  order 
before  getting  the  cars  to  the  elevator? 

Mr.  Bradley.  I  should  say  from  three  to  seven  days. 

Mr.  Marble.  Three  days  by  what  road  ? 

Mr.  Bradij:y.  Near-by  roads.  Our  elevator  is  located  in  South 
Chicago. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  it  takes  seven  days  from  roads  farther  away  ? 

Mr.  Bradujy.  Yes,  sir. 

Comniisioner  Lane.  You  have  facilities  by  which  you  can  unload 
your  cars  within  forty -eight  hours  always? 

Mr.  Bradley.  Always. 

Commissioner  Lane.  AVhile  the  railroads  have  not  got  facilities  by 
which  they  can  deliver  cars  to  you  in  the  city  short  of  fifty-six  or 
seventy-two  hours? 

Mr.  Bradley.  No  ;  they  don't  seem  to  be  able  to  do  that. 
.     Commissioner  Harlan.  Has  it  been  worse  this  year  than  last  year? 

Mr.  Bradley.  Yes,  sir;  it  has. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  It  is  a  growing  evil? 

Mr.  Bradley.  It  seems  to  be  growing. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  any  trouble  in  getting  grain  into  the  city 
promptly  from  the  country — in  the  movement  from  the  country  ? 

Mr.  Brapley.  No;  our  receipts  at  the  present  time  are  very  late, 
but  we  do  not  hear  any  complamt  from  our  customers  in  regard  to  it. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  any  complaints  this  year  as  to  that? 

Mr.  Bradley.  No;  we  have  not 

(The  witness  was  e.xcused.) 

J.  J.  Stream,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr  Marble.  You  are  manager  of  the  South  Chicago  Elevator  Com- 
pany? 

Mr.  Stream.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  how  many  cars  of  grain  do  you  unload  per 
year  at  your  elevators,  if  you  can  approximate  it? 

Mr.  Stream.  Fifteen  thousand  to  20,000  cars  each  year. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  would  you  say  is  the  average  time  that  you  take 
to  unload  grain  after  receiving  the  car  at  the  elevator  before  you  re- 
lease the  car  i 


462  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Stream.  The  average  time? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  Stream.  I  would  say  twenty- four  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  WHiat  is  the  avera^je  of  the  time  that  it  takes  you  to 
get  a  car  to  your  elevator  after  giving  the  order? 

Mr.  Stream.  To  the  railroad? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes. 

Mr.  Stream.  I  could  not  say  anything  about  the  average  time.  I 
have  got  a  little  memorandum  made  up  from  my  books  that  the  boys 
drew  up  hastily  showing  the  date  the  cars  were  ordered  to  the  ele- 
vator, and  showing  the  number  of  cars  that  arrived  at  the  elevator 
after  the  orders  were  given,  and  showing  the  time. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  summarize  that  ? 

Conmiissioner  Harlan.  TMiat  cars? 

Mr.  Stream.  The  loaded  cars  set  at  the  elevator  to  be  unloaded. 
Those  are  the  cars  that  were  ordered — stuff  that  we  had  bought  in  the 
country. 

Mr.  Marble.  May  I  read  just  a  little  of  this? 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  is  "  J.  C.  Schaffer  &  Co.,  October  1  to  Decem- 
ber 1,  1906." 

Mr.  Stream.  That  covers  cars  that  we  had  bought  in  the  country, 
and  that  we  had  diverted  to  our  own  elevator. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  all  the  business  of  that  particular  class? 

Mr.  Stream.  Of  that  particular  class,  yes. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  did  not  select  these  cars  in  order  to  show  results  ? 

Mr.  Stream.  Not  at  all. 

Mr.  Marble.  This  disposition  was  given  after  inspection.  That 
means  that  after  the  grain  was  inspected  you  gave  orders  to  have  th^ 
car  taken  to  your  elevator? 

Mr.  Stream.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Four  hundred  and  fourteen  cars  the  same  day,  2  one 
dav  after,  and  1  two  days  after? 

Mr.  Stream.  In  other  words,  all  the  cars  were  ordered  to  the  ele- 
vator the  same  day  that  they  were  inspected. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  tell  us  the  time  of  delivery  to  elevator  after 
disposition  and  order  was  given  ? 

Mr.  Stream.  Two  cars  same  day,  80  cars  one  day  after,  78  cars  two 
days  after,  63  cars  three  days  after,  70  cars  four  days  after,  47  cars 
five  days  after,  21  cars  six  days  after,  20  cars  seven  days  after,  3  cars 
eight  days  after,  3  cars  nine  days  after,  10  cars  ten  days  after,  4  cars 
eleven  days  after,  5  cars  twelve  days  after,  4  cars  thirteen  days  after, 
1  car  fifteen  days  after,  1  car  seventeen  days  after,  1  car  nineteen 
days  after,  1  car  twenty-eight  days  after. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  many  miles  did  those  cars  have  to 
travel  ? 

Mr.  Stream.  Well,  that  will  represent  cars  that  came  in  on  the 
Alton  and  on  the  Illinois  Central.  We  usually  order  those  to  be 
delivered  to  the  Lake  Shore,  and  I  think  the  mileage  is  less  than  10 
miles.     I  am  not  speaking  positively  now. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Well,  it  is  within  10  or  12  miles? 

Mr.  Stream.  Possibly  that. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  they  were  unloaded  at  the  elevator  after  receipt — 
the  417  cars — the  same  day  ? 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  463 

Mr.  Stream.  Yes;  every  car  was  unloaded  the  day  it  was  set  out 
there. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Your  experience  in  this  matter  of  delay  is 
that  it  is  not  caused  by  the  grain  men  of  Chicago,  as  I  understand? 

Air.  Stream.  No.  sir;  not  at  all. 

Conmiissioner  1I.\ri.an.  Are  all  their  elevators  suffering  from  about 
the  same  delay  that  you  experience? 

Mr.  Stream.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  the  others  are  also. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  regard  that  as  good  service? 

Mr.  Stream.  I  do  not. 

Commissioner  Harlan,  ^\^lat  financial  effect,  if  any,  does  it  have 
upon  your  business? 

Mr.  Stream.  Well,  if  this  grain  is  already  sold  and  I  have  paid  the 
profits  on  it,  I  am  to  a  certain  extent  at  the  expense  of  the  loss  of 
interest,  and  at  times  we  run  very  slow  on  delivery  of  this  grain  to  the 
elevator  and  sometimes  we  get  caught  with  our  sales  being  cancelled, 
because  the  grain  is  not  delivered  to  us  in  time  for  us  to  make  delivery. 

Mr.  Marble.  Does  the  element  of  deterioration  of  the  grain  enter 
into  it  ? 

Mr.  Stream.  Yes;  that  is  quite  an  element  in  it. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  insurance  ? 

Mr.  Stream.  There  is  no  insurance  until  we  get  the  grain,  but  often- 
times the  grain  deteriorates  in  condition,  and  that  causes  us  to  suffer  a 
very  heavy  loss.  In  the  last  week  I  think  we  have  made  a  claim  on 
the  Lake  Shore  road  aggregating  over  $500  on  corn  that  had  got 
hot  and  burned  up. 

Commissioner  Lane.  After  all,  you  take  it  all  out  on  the  farmer  at 
the  end,  don't  you,  in  the  price  of  the  grain?  It  comes  out  of  his 
pocket,  don't  it? 

Mr.  Stream.  No,  sir;  not  where  we  buy  grain  on  a  particular 
grade.     We  buy  grain  to  be  graded  here  in  Chicago. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  don't  mean  that  particular  shipment,  but 
subsequently  you  have  to  figure  in  this  possible  loss,  and  deduct  it 
from  what  you  can  afford  to  pay  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Stream.  Well,  of  course  we  have  got  to  get  that  back  some 
way;  yes.  , 

The  witness  was  excused. 

E.  B.  Boyd,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  testified  as 
follows: 

Mr.  Marble.  You  reside  in  Chicago,  and  are  traffic  manager  of  the 
board  of  trade? 

Mr.  Boyd.  I  am  manager  of  the  transportation  department  of  the 
board  of  trade. 

Mr.  Marble.  Previous  to  this  employment  you  were  a  railroad 
official ? 

Mr.  BoiT).  I  was. 

Mr.  Marble.  ^Miat  office  did  you  hold? 

Mr.  Boyd.  General  freight  agent  of  the  Rock  Island. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  years  were  you  in  the  railroad  business? 

Mr.  Boyd.  About  twenty-one. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  you  served  in  other  capacities  than  as  general 
freight  agent  ? 


464  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Boyd.  Yes;  I  did. 

Mr.  Marble.  Please  tell  us  what  they  were,  briefly. 

Mr.  Boyd.  As  clerk  and  as  head  of  the  traffic  department,  assist- 
ant general  freight  agent,  and  general  freight  agent. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  tell  us  what  the  reconsignment  privilege  in 
this  territory  is,  in  your  own  way,  giving  the  reasons  for  such  rules, 
the  application  of  the  rules  and  the  effect  thereof  ? 

Mr.  Boyd.  So  far  as  it  pertains  to  the  question  of  grain,  the  recon- 
signment privilege  so  called  is  necessary  to  the  merchandising  of 
grain  at  this  market  or  at  any  other  market  that  is  a  terminal  one. 
Grain  that  arrives  at  a  terminal  market  is  here  for  the  purpose  of 
being  sold.  Those  shippers  who  wish  to  consign  on  the  open  market 
do  so  through  their  commission  house  for  the  purpose  of  realizing 
the  highest  price  that  the  elevator  or  the  local  industry  or  the  ex- 
porter may  wish  to  pay  for  it. 

The  grain  arrives  at  Chicago  and  is  supposed  to  be  promptly 
inspected,  and  indeed  it  is  in  90  per  c6nt  of  the  cases.  Samples  are 
brought  on  'Change,  and  it  is  sold  and  the  disposition  order  is  given. 
That  constitutes  a  reconsignment.  The  car,  of  course,  must  be  con- 
signed to  somebody  when  it  arrives  here  to  notify  for  disposition. 

The  car  at  that  time  has  made  no  extra  movement.  It  is  retained 
in  the  outer  yard  of  the  railroad,  where  they  would,  of  their  own 
motion,  hold  it  after  breaking  up  their  train,  and  from  that  point  it 
goes  to  the  ultimate  destination,  wheher  an  elevator  on  that  particular 
line  or  some  other  line,  or  some  industry  within  the  city.  The  move- 
ment completes  the  original  haul  for  which  the  charge  from  the  coun- 
try point  to  the  city  is  made  and  which  that  charge  is  supposed  to 
cover.     It  is  a  continuation  of  their  initial  haul. 

The  reconsignment  charge  formerly  was  made  on  all  grain  leaving 
the  line  of  the  road  that  brought  it  in.  That  constitutes  a  tax,  and 
it  was  added  back  to  the  country  shipper.  He  frequently  demurred 
and  could  not  see  why  he  should  pay  one  rate  for  transportation  and 
then,  after  the  grain  got  to  Chicago,  pay  another  charge. 

We  succeeded  in  getting  that  taken  off.  To-day  there  is  no  charge 
of  that  kind  assessed  here;  but  in  connection  with  that  I  would  like 
to  say  something  in  reference  to  this  transit  evil.  The  transit  evil, 
of  which  much  has  been  said  in  this  hearing  and  others,  is  largely 
exaggerated,  especially  when  you  come  to  the  question  of  grain,  and 
as  applied  to  terminal  markets.  The  question  of  transit  has  a  much 
broader  meaning  than  the  one  which  is  given  to  it  by  the  so-called 
critics. 

In  this  large  city,  whether  it  be  grain  or  merchandise,  coal,  lumber, 
or  coke,  or  any  of  the  commodities  in  which  a  merchant  may  deal,  if 
it  is  not  allowed  to  come  to  the  center,  and  from  that  center  be  dis- 
tributed, there  is  absolutely  nothing  but  a  restraint  and  a  restriction 
of  trade  that  results,  because  no  producer  of  a  commodity  of  the  soil 
will  ever  reach  the  consumer  otherwise,  and  that  is  almost  an  axiom. 
If  the  public  would  realize  that,  and  some  of  the  railroads,  that  it 
is  impossible  for  the  producer  to  reach  the  consumer 

Commissioner  Lane.  You  mean  directly,  without  the  intervention 
of  a  middleman? 

Mr.  Boyd.  Yes;  directly;  without  the  intervention  of  a  middle- 
man. Take,  for  instance,  the  grain  producer  or  the  farmer.  He 
has  no  concern  as  to  whom  he  sells,  or  who  it  is  that  wants  his  grain 


CAR   SHOBTAOB.  465 

ultimately.  He  does  not  bother  with  that.  His  mind  runs  in  this 
channel:  "  I  have  a  bill  to  pay;  my  harvest  is  over,  and  I  have  got 
certain  expenses.  I  take  my  gi'ain  to  market  and  there  is  someone 
there  to  buy  it.  I  do  not  know  that  the  consumer  is  in  the  market, 
and  I  care  less," 

There  is  a  big  surplus  flowing  to  each  market — the  great  terminal 
markets — and  the  terminal  markets  receive  that  surplus  and  take 
their  chances  with  the  consumer.  There  may  be  no  demand;  there 
is  none  to-day.  The  export  demand  is  practically  nothing,  and  the 
domestic  demand  is  filled.  So  the  large  terminal  markets  are  the 
places  where  the  surplus  of  the  producer  can  be  held,  marketed, 
and  disposed  of  to  the  best  advantage  of  the  purchaser  and  of  tlie 
consumer. 

Now,  the  points  of  location  are  matters  of  very  ^reat  importance. 
Those  points  are  determined  by  geographical  position  and  the  pos- 
session of  ample  facilities.  Now,  unless  tne  rates,  which  are  the  prime 
cause  of  all  the  evils  in  the  transportation  matter  that  we  have  to-day, 
are  so  adjusted  that  in  these  large  centers  grain  arriving,  or  com- 
modities arriving,  in  here  as  surplus  can  be  handled  and  redistrib- 
uted without  paying  a  penalty  (as  against  some  interior  city  that  has 
no  facilities  wliatever)  then  the  through  rate  must  be  made  so  as  to 
give  these  markets  transportation  without  a  lot  of  complicated  rules 
such  as  this  market  to-day  is  laboring  under. 

I  said  once,  in  a  statement  that  I  made,  that  we  are  tied  up  hero 
with  $500,000  to  $700,000  continuously,  upon  which  interest  must 
be  repaid  wlien  the  shipment  goes  through  and  which  it  costs  the 
shipper  10  per  cent  to  collect  back  after  the  transaction  is  all  over, 
as  if  the  shipper  were  to  gay  to  himself,  "  Well,  I  have  paid  10  per 
cent,  but  I  have  got  back  my  dollar." 

These  are  the  rules  which  the  large  market  to-day  (Chicago  and 
all  the  other  markets)  is  subjected  to  by  the  character  of  the  rates 
that  are  made,  and  yet  the  proposition  is  made  that  the  transit  is 
the  cause  of  the  evil.  It  is  impossible  to  handle  the  products  from 
the  producer  to  the  consumer  direct.  You  must  stop  them  at  some 
point.  All  these  evils  that  have  been  charged  against  this  market, 
and  which  ha^'e  been  charged  to  a  great  degree  to  the  shipper,  find 
tlieir  source  in  such  arrangements.  It  is  up  to  the  railroads  to  say 
whether  a  uniform,  modern  method  of  rate  making  shall  prevail 
instead  of  an  antiquated  method  such  as  prevails  to-day;  whether 
the  former  or  the  latter  shall  be  the  rule.  If  the  modern  metiiod  is 
adopted,  that  will  settle  these  problems  and  it  will  also  settle  a  largo 
portion  of  the  delay  which  is  now  charged  to  that  particular  evil 
of  transit. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  WTiat  should  be  your  theory  of  rate  mak- 
ing? 

Mr.  Boyd.  I  believe  it  is  necessary  to  concentrate  your  rate,s  at 
certain  recognized  terminal  points  for  the  distribution  of  goods.  The 
indiscriminate  making  of  through  rates  from  all  territory  to  all  ter- 
ritory would  produr^  a  chaotic  condition  in  which  nothing  but  an 
exjjert — and  I  doubt  if  even  he — would  be  able  to  familiarize  himself 
with  the  rate. 

If  he  can  concentrate  them,  as  at  a  relay  station,  at  certain  large 
centers,  and  then  rebill  your  shipments,  if  the  shipper  desires  to  rebill 
S.  Doc.  33.3, 59-2 30 


466  OAR   SHORTAGE. 

them,  he  is  not  then  barred  from  that  on  the  basis  of  two  rates.  It 
matters  not  whether  you  make  them  local  or  whether  you  make  them 
proportional,  or  whether  you  make  the  through  rate  less  than  the  two 
and  then  divide  it  again.  For  all  practical  purposes  the  division 
becomes  two  rates  after  all. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  would  divide  the  country  into  a  series 
of  zones. 

Mr.  Boyd.  Yes;  and  another  thing  I  want  to  call  attention  to  is 
that  while  it  divides  the  country  into  zones  it  gives  to  each  zone  the 
benefit  of  competing  markets. 

Just  so  long  as  the  rates  are  so  made  that  the  nearest  market  only 
has  access  to  the  trade,  just  so  long  wall  you  have  monopoly,  and  just 
so  long  will  the  producer  suffer.  If  the  rates  from  the  Northwest 
into  Minneapolis  are  so  made  that  the  traffic  must  seek  that  gateway, 
as  it  will,  then  the  market  at  that  point  will  be  benefited  and  will 
retain  all  that  it  possibly  can.  Likewise  it  will  do  the  same  if  the 
rates  were  so  adjusted  in  regard  to  Chicago  or  Kansas  City  or  St. 
Louis.  These  zones  of  terminal  points — if  the  rates  are  so  made — 
they  can  be  so  adjusted  relatively  that  the  entire  structure  will  be 
uniform.  When  you  make  through  rates  by  other  gateways  the 
traffic  is  necessarily  seeking  the  privilege  of  transit  through  those 
points.  The  result  is  you  have  got  delay  to  your  shipments.  It 
starts  in  places  that  have  no  right  to  become  markets,  and  if  you  can 
bring  about  a  change  in  that  situation,  I  believe  that  the  car  situation 
will  largely  solve  itself. 

Commissioner  Harlvn.  Can  you  put  your  views  into  some  forip 
very  succinctly  and  submit  it  to  the  Commission  ?  ' 

Mr.  Boyd.  I  will  be  very  glad  to,  I  have  nothing  more  on  that 
question.  I  want  to  call  particular  attention  to  this  car  shortage 
here  and  especially  to  the  fact  that  the  elevators  have  made  these 
statements,  which  I  have  seen  here,  showing  uniformly  a  record  of, 
I  think,  safely  speaking,  85  to  90  per  cent  of  all  the  grain  received, 
handled  the  same  day  it  is  tendered  to  their  elevators. 

I  have  gone  into  that  carefully,  and  I  have  been  before  superin- 
tendents Avho  seek  to  curtail  the  time,  when  their  ow^n  records  show 
that  the  delays  are  really  not  due  to  the  elevator  people,  but  that  1.6 
days  or,  I  believe,  1.7  days,  the  year  in  and  the  year  out,  constitute 
the  detentions  at  the  elevators  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  have  made  it  your  business  to  seek  to  shorten 
that  time? 

Mr.  Boyd.  We  have  already  said  to  the  railroads  that  we  would 
cut  the  time  for  disposition  orders — that  we  would  cut  it  twenty-four 
hours.  We  told  them  that,  but  we  told  them  that  if  we  had  their 
delays  cut  down  it  would  be  unnecessary. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  is  your  observation  then  that  this  free  time  is  not 
used  by  the  grain  men? 

Mr.  Boyd.  It  is  not.  The  only  reason  we  ask  for  that  is  owing  to 
some  exceptional  cases,  such  as  this:  There  comes  a  period  every 
year  that  no  one,  not  even  the  grain  men  or  the  railroad  men,  can 
control  the  movement  of  traffic  in.  The  farmers  unload  when  it 
suits  them,  and  that  creates  congestion. 

The  business  comes  into  Chicago  in  volumes  that  neither  the  rail- 
roads can  handle  promptly,  nor  the  elevators,  and  that  makes  it 


CAR   SHOBTAOB.  467 

impossible  to  unload  each  day,  and  we  have  had  given  us  five  days 
for  the  privilege  of  holding  cars  to  meet  just  such  situations  as  that, 
as  a  sort  of  reserve  time.  Now  it  is  the  intention  to  cut  out  three  of 
ihose  five  without  making  any  provision  whatever  in  case  of  emer- 
gency, and  with  the  statement  that  they  must  enforce  whatever  they 
do,  and  can  not  vary  it.  That  would  create  a  hardship  here  and 
should  not  be  done  in  my  opinion,  unless  some  provision  is  made  to 
take  care  of  those  emergencies,  because  it  is  beyond  the  power  of  the 
human  mind  to  conceive  what  is  going  to  happen  in  the  future,  and 
railroads  can  not  help  it  as  they  are  constituted,  and  neither  can  the 
gi'ain  people. 

Mr.  Marble.  Did  you  make  any  statement  or  any  estimate  of  the 
importance  of  those  emergencies  and  the  amount  of  them  in  the  past  ? 

Mr.  Boyd.  I  would  not  care  to  just  at  the  moment,  because  it  re- 
quires some  preparation.  I  have  known  a  time  when  hundreds  and 
hundreds  of  cars  of  grain  were  held  on  the  Rock  Island  road  in  the 
city  of  Chicago,  waiting  disposition. 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you,  from  your  experience  as  a  railroad  man. 
make  any  suggestion,  or  offer  any  plan  by  which  the  movement  oi 
freight  cars  could  be  stimulated? 

Mr.  BovD.  I  believe  if  the  railroads  would  move  each  twenty-four 
hours  that  which  has  In'en  given  them  for  transportation  during  that 
twenty-four  hours,  and  do  it  promptly,  without  regard  to  whether 
they  have  a  full  tonnage  or  not,  it  would  certainly  afford  a  great  aid. 
To  this  holding  of  care  at  various  points  waiting  for  tonnage,  for 
the  completion  of  the  maximum  tonnage  for  that  particular  engine, 
is  largely  attributable  these  delays  and  this  congestion  when  it  comes. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  In  other  words,  your  theory  is  to  apply 
the  same  theory  that  is  applied  to  passengers.  The  passenger  train 
goes  at  a  fixed  time,  whether  it  has  500  passengers  or  50  passengers, 
and  your  idea  is  that  the  freight  train  should  go,  whether  it  has  25 
cars  or  10? 

Mr.  Born.  Certainly,  the  channels  of  traffic  should  be  kept  open, 
and  as  fast  as  a  delivery  is  made  by  the  public  it  should  be  taken  care 
of.  Not  nec&jsarily  run  so  many  trains,  but  there  should  be  a  service 
which  would  clean  up  each  day,  if  possible,  that  which  is  given  them 
that  day,  instead  of  holding  it  over  to  the  next  day  in  order  to  make 
a  certain  amount  of  tonnage. 

Mr.  Marble.  It  has  been  said  that  the  very  heavy  loading  of  en- 
gines increases  the  total  movement  of  freight,  and  was  necessary  for 
the  public  good. 

Mr.  BovD.  That  has  been  said,  and  it  is  true  in  a  way,  but  it  all 
depends  on  your  view  point.  You  may  increase  the  tonnage  of  your 
engine,  and  increase  behind  it  your  load,  but  if  you  don't  move  that 
load  what  do  you  accomplish?  You  start  off  with  no  reserve  force, 
and  if  there  should  come  an  accident  to  the  train  and  you  can  not 
overcome  it,  or  make  it  up  by  running  a  little  faster,  you  can  see  how 
constantly  you  will  be  going  downhill.  That  is  the  trouble  with  over- 
loading your  train  or  engine.  If  thev  are  not  given  an  opportunity 
to  make  up  time  in  case  of  an  accicfent  the  result  is  once  delayed, 
always  delayed,  and  there  is  no  chance  of  making  it  up. 

Commissioner  Hari^n.  You  have  not  made  any  statement  as  to 
the  average  delay  of  carriers  in  setting  cars  at  the  elevators,  have 
you? 


468  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  BoTD.  Only  those  which  have  been  offered  here  to-day. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  have  not  made  any  other  statement? 

Mr.  Boyd.  No. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Have  you  any  statement  to  make? 

Mr.  Boyd.  No;  I  would  not  have  unless  I  could  gather  the  infor- 
mation from  each  elevator,  and  that  has  been  done. 

Mr.  Marble.  Is  there  anything  further  that  you  wish  to  offer  in 
regard  to  the  overloading  of  engines,  from  your  previous  experience  ? 

Mr.  Boyd.  I  do  not  know  that  it  has  any  particular  bearing  on  the 
case,  except  that  the  instance  which  I  am  about  to  mention,  was,  in 
my  opinion,  an  illustration  of  the  method  referred  to  of  handling 
business  and  its  results. 

At  one  time  we  were  working  under  the  so-called  Hill  theory  of 
tonnage,  by  which  everything  should  move  in  one  train,  if  possible, 
and  we  had  occasion  to  make  an  investigation  on  the  Rock  Island, 
and  in  jiassing  over  one  division  inquiry  among  the  agents  rasulted 
in  the  discovery  of  the  fact  that  several  cars  had  been  on  the  track 
four  or  five  days  waiting  movement,  waiting  for  full  tonnage;  that 
there  had  been  full  trains  in  one  direction  and  empty  trains  in 
another.  In  some  cases  it  had  resulted  in  the  grain  deteriorating, 
and  we  were  somewhat  at  a  loss  to  know  what  measure  of  relief  could 
be  afforded  to  the  shipper. 

Inquiry  into  the  details  developed  this  fact:  The  train  sheets  were 
made  up  so  as  to  show  a  full  movement  behind  each  engine,  and  where 
a  return  crew  (that  is,  an  engine  and  a  caboose)  went  from  one  tertni- 
nal  back  to  another,  that  was  not  considered  a  train,  but  if  any 
tonnage  in  the  way  of  surplus  was  added  to  that  train  in  order  to 
clean  up,  and  it  was  not  a  full  complement,  that  became  a  train 
of  deficit,  and,  of  course,  an  explanation  was  required. 

I  have  eveiy  reason  to  believe  that  that  condition  prevails  in  a 
great  many  more  places  than  the  one  we  discovered.  An  engine 
passed  the  station  four  days  in  succession,  with  nothing  behind  it, 
and  yet  the  cars  could  not  be  taken  up,  because  it  would  make  a 
short  train.    That,  however,  no  longer  obtains. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  mean  it  no  longer  obtains  on  the  Rock  Island 
road? 

Mr.  Boyd.  No,  I  think  not;  our  reports  show  very  good  service, 
and  I  know  they  went  out  of  their  way  to  bring  cars  mto  the  North- 
west, involving  an  empty  haul,  in  order  to  clean  up  that  condition 
there  which  had  been  reported  to  us,  and  I  know  their  road  is  run- 
ning now  in  very  good  shape. 

Mr.  Marble.  To  your  knowledge  has  that  plan  of  heavy  tonnage, 
in  order  to  get  figures  of  a  great  many  ton  miles  per  train  mile 
traveled,  been  adopted  by  railroads  other  than  the  Hill  roads,  and 
afterwards  abandoned? 

Mr.  Boyd.  I  think  it  was  adopted  by  a  great  many  and  discarded. 
Every  superintendent  seeks  to  get  the  limit  out  of  his  engines.  The 
question  is  where  to  draw  the  line.  It  has  not  been  adopted  in  such 
extreme  measure  as  it  was  in  the  past.  I  am  sure  it  has  been  broken 
away  from,  because  it  is  not  applicable  to  the  present  traffic  condi- 
tion in  this  territory.  That  was  a  case  of  tonnage  gone  mad.  The 
shadow  still  remains. 

Mr.  Marble.  But  the  difference  between  these  roads  and  the  North- 
western road  is  that  these  roads  are  largely  competitive. 


CAR  SHORTAQB.  469 

Mr.  Boyd.  Largely  competitive,  entirely  so. 

Mr.  Marble,  And  you  regard  this  method  of  operation  as  impracti- 
cable in  competitive  territory  ? 

Mr.  Boyd.  I  do. 

Mr.  Marbij:.  Do  you  know  whether  it  still  obtains  on  the  north- 
western roads  in  noncompetitive  territory? 

Mr.  Boyd.  That  is  my  information. 

Mr.  Marbi^.  On  the  Great  Northern  and  Northern  Pacific? 

Mr.  Boyd.  That  is  the  complaint  we  get. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  get  that  complaint? 

Mr.  Boyd.  From  the  shippers,  yes;  they  come  in  and  talk  about  it. 

F.  H.  Harwood,  called  as  a  witness,  being  duly  sworn,  testified  as 
follows : 

Mr.  Marbij:.  You  are  with  the  Illinois  Central  Railway? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  charge  of  the  coal  traffic  on  that  road? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marbij:.  Have  you  had  cars  enough  to  move  your  traffic  this 
year? 

Mr.  Harw<k>d.  No;  I  can  not  say  that  we  have  had  cars  enough  for 
the  amount  of  business  offering. 

Mr.  ISIarbi^.  How  far  behind  would  you  say  that  your  road  is  as  to 
the  number  of  cars? 

Mr.  Harwood.  That  is  a  difficult  matter  for  me  to  say,  for  the 
reason  that  there  are  so  many  shippers  that  have  duplicate  orders,  and 
it  fs  impossible  to  figure  out  just  exactly  how  many  cars  are  needed. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  think  that  really  you  are  so  far  behind  as  the 
figures  would  seem  to  show  ? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  is  your  point? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  had  trouble  with  the  slowness  of  movement 
of  your  cars  after  gettmg  the  coal  into  them  this  year? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Very  little;  our  coal  moves  very  promptly.  The 
maximum  haul  is  from  what  we  term  the  Carterville  district,  320 
miles  from  Chicago,  and  while  there  are  occasional  cases  where  the 
cars  are  delayed  by  reason  of  bad  weather  conditions,  as  a  general 
proposition  the  movement  is  accomplished  in  from  two  to  four  days. 

Air.  Marble.  From  two  to  four  days  for  the  320-mile  haul? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  division  points  do  you  pass  through? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Two. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  much  of  that  time  is  consumed  at  the  division 
points? 

Mr.  Harwood.  So  far  as  I  know — I  am  not  thoroughly  familiar 
with  the  operations  of  those  points — but  I  should  judge  that  the  delay 
at  these  terminal  points  will  not  exceed  twelve  hours. 

Mr.  Marble.  Twelve  hours  in  each  ? 

Mr.  Harwood.  We  only  pass  through  one  division  point. 

Mr.  Marble.  Are  the  cars  handled  by  your  company  in  this  city 
used  for  warehouse  purposes? 

Mr.  Habwood.  We  feel  that  they  are. 


470  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  Marble.  Will  you  express  yourself  on  that  point  as  to  the 
amount  of  that  evil,  and  as  to  the  best  course  to  remedy  it — any 
remedy  you  can  suggest? 

Mr.  Harwood.  As  a  rule,  coal  hauled  into  Chicago  is  under  a 
reconsignment  arrangement.  There  are  very  few  dealers  that  con- 
sign their  coal  direct  to  the  consumer.  There  are  several  reasons  for 
that,  one  being  that  they  want  to  avoid  allowing  the  operator  to  know 
to  whom  the  coal  is  to  go,  for  fear  that  operator  will  sell  the  coal 
direct.  Another  reason  is  that  so  many  of  the  dealers  or  brokers  will 
possibly  overlook  a  contract,  and  in  the  event  of  a  shortage  of  cars, 
they  use  the  reconsigning  for  distributing  their  coal.  I  have  a  list 
showing  that  during  the  month  of  October  we  brought  into  Chicago 
7,528  cars,  and  of  that  number  there  were  5,975  cars  reconsigned, 
showing  that  there  was  only  a  total  of  1,553  cars  billed  direct  from  the 
mines  to  the  consumer. 

During  the  month  of  October  the  average  free-time  limit  in 
Chicago  was  five  days.  That  is,  the  dealer  had  the  privilege  of  hold- 
ing the  car  five  days  on  the  track  before  reconsigning. 

After  he  reconsigned  the  car  it  would  take  from  twenty-four  to 
forty-eight  hours  to  switch  it  out  from  the  yard  and  pick  it  out  from 
1,500  to  2,000  cars,  those  particular  individual  cars,  and  make  a 
delivery  to  the  final  point  or  destination,  whether  for  team  \track 
delivery,  or  whether  for  industries  on  our  line  or  connecting  roads. 
Then  there  was  a  certain  amount  of  delay  or  time  consumed  by  the 
delivering  road  in  placing  those  cars,  and  after  they  were  once  placed 
forty-eight  hours  was  allowed  for  the  unloading.  So  that  in  reality 
on  a  great  portion  of  the  coal  delivered  to  Chicago,  after  it  arrives, 
and  the  cars  are  made  empty,  and  the  empties  delivered  back  to  our 
line,  it  consumes  anywhere  from  six  to  fifteen  days,  and  even  twenty 
days. 

Mr.  Marble.  You  mean  that  free  time  was  used  ? 

Mr.  Harwood.  That  free  time  was  used  in  a  great  many  cases;  I 
think  in  a  majority  of  cases. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  And  that  was  without  any  cost? 

Mr.  Harwood.  And  that  was  without  any  cost.  During  the  last 
thirty  days  the  free  time  on  the  Illinois  Central  has  been  reduced 
from  five  to  three  days,  and,  elfective  on  Monday,  a  reconsigning 
charge  of  $2  per  car  will  be  inaugurated.  We  feel  that  under  that 
arrangement  coal  will  be  billed  direct  from  the  mines  to  the  con- 
sumer, so  that  when  it  arrives  at  Chicago,  instead  of  going  into  the 
"  hold  "  yard,  with  1,500  or  2,000  other  cars,  it  will  go  direct  to  the 
user,  thereby  getting  better  results  from  our  equipment,  and  enabling 
us  to  handle  more  tonnage. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  heard  the  statement  made  this  morn- 
ing that  forty-eight  hours  would  be  sufficient? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Yes ;  and  probably  forty-eight  hours  would  be  suf- 
ficient time. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  If  that  is  so,  and  if  you  believe  that  that  is 
all  the  time  required,  why  should  you  put  the  blame  on  the  con- 
signees for  holding  up  the  cars  ? 

Mr.  Harwood.  For  this  reason :  The  coal  industry  is  not  one  of  com- 
petition between  roads  operating  from  the  same  district,  but  it  is  a  com- 
mercial competition  that  has  one  railroad  operating  from  West  Vir- 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  471 

ginia,  handling  the  West  Virginia  product  or  the  Ohio  coal  into  Chi- 
cago, and  that  coal  comes  into  competition  with  coal  from  Illinois  off 
the  western  roads,  with  a  like  privilege  of  five  days'  reconsigning  time, 
and  if  the  western  roads  would  adopt  the  rule  of  fort^'-eight  hours 
it  would  very  soon  transfer  a  large  volume  of  traffic  to  the  eastern 
mines. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  agree  with  Mr.  Daly  that  it  would 
be  best  to  have  some  power  iujposo  a  uniform  rule  i 

Mr.  Harw(h)d.  I  think  it  would  be  a  good  plan.  Mr.  Daly,  I  be- 
lieve, stated  in  regard  to  the  free  time  at  Chicago,  that  it  would  be 
reduced  if  the  roads  would  get  together  and  form  an  agreement. 
We  can  not  do  that  very  well,  but  we  have  taken  independent  action 
and  some  of  the  other  lines  have  followed  and  reduced  the  time, 
irrespective  of  eastern  competition.  We  have  done  that  to  get  better 
results,  and  believing  that  we  would. 

I  would  like,  however,  to  call  attention  to  one  thing,  and  that  is, 
why  there  should  l)e  a  shortage  at  this  particular  time.  From  my 
personal  knowledge,  the  western  dealers,  all  through  the  western 
country,  wait  until  the  cold  weather  sets  in  before  ordering  coal. 
They  make  no  provision  whatever  to  put  coal  in  storage  during  the 
summer  months,  when  there  is  a  largo  surplus  of  equipment.  The 
same  is  true  as  to  coal  used  for  the  production  of  steam  in  the  large 
centei's.  The  conditions  of  business  have  enabled  them  to  build  up 
their  manufacturing  points,  taking  away  yard  room  that  was  for- 
merly used  for  the  storage  of  fuel,  and  you  will  find  that  in  a  great 
many  cases  the  manufacturer  w-ill  store  six  months'  or  a  year's  supply 
of  raw  material,  but  will  altogether  overlook  the  fact  of  the  necessity 
for  a  fuel  supply. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Isn't  it  quite  necessary  that  they  should 
rely  upon  you  to  accommodate  yourself  to  them  instead  of  accommo- 
dating themselves  to  you?  Why  should  they  tie  up  this  money  from 
July  to  January? 

Mr.  Harwood.  We  tie  up  our  money  in  the  matter  of  storing  coal 
during  the  summer  time  in  order  to  have  that  coal  to  use  in  the 
winter,  a;id  that  would  be  nothing  less  than  reciprocity  on  their  part 
to  also  provide  storage. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  I  do  not  say  that  they  should  not,  but  it 
is  natural  that  they  should  look  to  you  to  supply  the  cars  at  the  time 
when  they  want  them.    That  is  the  way  they  feel  about  it. 

Mr.  Harwood.  Very  true. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Well,  do  they  use  your  cars  as  storehouses? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Practically ;  the  free  time  given  amounts  to  a  storage 
privilege. 

Commissioner  Harl^vn.  How  long  a  time  do  you  give  them  to 
unload  the  cars? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Everyone  has  forty-eight  hours  after  they  are 
placed. 

Mr.  D.  A.  Sage  (a  coal  merchant  residing  in  Chicago).  May  I  ask 
a  qiiestion  ? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes ;  what  is  it  ? 

Mr.  Sage.  Mr.  Harwood  in  his  testimony  refers  to  the  issue  of 
December  18.  I  would  like  to  ask  this  particular  question  in  regard 
to  this  tariff.  (Witness  refers  to  the  Illinois  Central  Railroad  Sup- 
plement No.  3,  to  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  No.  E-624.) 


472  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

Perhaps  I  had  better  read  it.  It  reverses  the  above-described  tarirf 
in  so  far  as  concerns  shipments  of  soft  coal  in  carloads  from  pointe 
in  Illinois  and  Indiana: 

Refer  to  above-described  tariffs,  and  so  far  as  concerns  shipments  of  soft 
coal,  carloads  forwarded  from  points  in  Illinois  and  Indiana,  cancel  reference 
therein  to  Chicago,  111.,  in  list  of  exceptions,  as  orders  reconsigning  soft  coal, 
carloads,  handled  by  the  Illinois  Central  Railroad  into  Chicago,  Grand  Cross- 
ing. Fordhani,  Kensington,  Wildwood,  Riverdale.  Harvey,  West  Pullman,  Blue 
Island,  Windsor  Park,  Cheltenham,  and  South  Chicago,  111.,  from  points  in  Illi- 
nois and  Indiana,  except  from  off  the  Cleveland,  Cincinnati,  Chicago  and  St 
Ix)uis  Railway,  will  not  be  accepted  unless  accompanied  by  a  remittance  cov- 
ering a  reconsigning  charge  of  $2  per  car,  plus  any  and  all  accrued  car  service 
or  demurrage  charges. 

The  question  I  wish  to  put  to  the  witness  is  simply  this : 

AVTiy  is  there  an  exception  in  regard  to  coal  commg  except  by  the 
Three  C's  and  St.  L.  ?  Why  is  there  an  exception,  and  why  is  this 
tariff  not  in  violation  of  the  rules  of  the  Interstate  Commerce  Com- 
mission for  the  reason  that  it  is  discriminatory  as  against  the 
shipper? 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  last  question  will  be  reserved  for  the 
Commission  to  answer.  As  to  the  first  part  of  the  question,  as  to,  the 
reason  for  putting  that  tariff  in,  it  is  all  right. 

Mr.  Harwood.  In  regard  to  eliminating  the  Big  Four  from  that 
arrangement? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Yes. 

Commissioner  Haklan.  I  would  like  to  have  that  rule  translated 
into  plain  English.    AMiat  does  it  all  mean  ? 

Mr.  Harwood.  It  means  that  on  next  Monday  we  establish  a  recon- 
signing charge  of  $2  a  car  on  all  coal  arriving  in  Chicago  over  the 
Illinois  Central  Railroad,  except  on  interstate  traffic  from  Indiana, 
on  which  the  time  is  effective  January  19. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  There  is  a  special  road  mentioned  there. 

Mr.  Harwood.  That  is  the  Big  Four,  operating  into  Chicago  over 
our  tracks  from  Kankakee.  Under  the  terms  of  the  contract,  as  I 
understand,  between  the  Big  Four  and  Illinois  Central  they  have  the 
same  rights  over  our  tracks  and  on  our  terminals  as  we  have,  and  it 
also  provides,  I  think,  that  we  have  no  voice  or  no  right  to  establish 
any  rules  with  regard  to  Big  Four  business  without  their  consent. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Then  it  does  not  result  in  giving  coal  over 
that  road  a  benefit  that  is  not  enjoyed  by  other  coal,  does  it  ? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Just  the  same  as  it  gives  the  benefit  to  the  coal  com- 
ing over  the  Pennsylvania,  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio,  the  Lake  Shore, 
and  all  the  eastern  roads.  They  have  not  adopted  this  rule.  They 
allow  four  days'  free  time  without  any  reconsigning  charge.  The 
Big  Four  handle  exclusively  eastern  coal  into  Chicago  over  our  tracks 
from  Kankakee  to  Chicago,  which  does  not  originate  in  Illinois. 

Commissioner  Harlan  (addressing  Mr.  Sage).  You  can  raise  that 
question  at  any  time  you  wish  before  the  Commission  as  to  the  legal- 
ity of  that  charge. 

Mr.  Sage.  I  have  already  done  so.  One  more  question :  May  I  be 
permitted  to  ask  if  the  Illinois  Central  is  in  any  way  concerned  in 
the  operation  of  coal  mines  as  a  corporation,  or  are  there  individuals 
in  the  employ  of  the  Illinois  Central  who  are  interested,  directly  or 
indirectly,  in  the  operation  of  coal  mines  on  the  Illinois  Central  road  ? 

Mr.  Harwood.  I  handle  the  coal  traffic  on  the  Illinois  Central.    I 


Car  shortage.  473 

am  not  familiar  with  the  question  which  Mr.  Sage  has  asked  and  I 
can  not  answer  it. 

Mr.  Sage.  So  far  as  your  knowledge  goes,  then,  you  have  no  knowl- 
edge of  any  such  situation? 

Mr.  Harwood.  I  have  no  knowledge  of  it. 

Commissioner  Haruin.  You  are  not  yourself  interested  in  any 
coal  mines? 

Mr.  Harwood.  Most  certainly  I  am  not;  not  in  anyway  whatever. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Do  you  know  whether  Mr.  Daly  is? 

Mr.  Harwood.  I  do  not  know,  but  I  do  not  think  he  is. 

Mr.  Daly.  The  answer  to  that  is  that  I  am  not. 

Mr.  Sage.  May  I  be  jx^rmitted  to  say  to  the  Commission  that  it  is 
considered  to  be  a  fact  that  the  Illinois  Central  for  a  numl)er  of 
yeai-s  has  been  engaged  in  the  operation  of  coal  mines  in  competition 
with  these  shippers  and  the  operating  interests  of  their  own  road. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  will  say  on  behalf  of  the  Commission  that 
we  are  to  open  an  investigation  upon  that  matter  probably  in  Janu- 
ary or  February  here,  and  you  can  prestMit  to  us  at  that  time  any 
facts  of  which  you  may  be  aware,  and  we  Avill  be  very  glad  to  have 
them.    They  will  be  in  turn  reported  to  Congress. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  moved  more  coal  into  this  city  this  year 
than  last? 

Mr.  Harwood.  I  think  our  records  will  show  about  the  same  move- 
ment.   I  do  not  think  it  has  increased. 

The  witness  was  excused. 

E.  F.  Rosenbaum,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn  and  testified 
as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  a  memeber  of  the  Rosenbaum  Grain  Com- 
pany ? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  In  charge  of  its  business? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  Acquainted  with  its  business. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  prepared  figures  relating  to  the  time  which 
it  takes  your  firm  to  unload  grain  cars  in  this  city? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  I  have  the  figures ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  What  is  the  average  of  the  time  which  it  takes  to 
unload  grain  after  it  is  placed  at  your  elevator? 

Mr.  ISjsenbaum.  I  have  here  a  list  of  126  cars  taken  at  random,  in 
which  it  has  taken  from  one  day  to  seventeen  days  for  the  road  to 
deliver  after  the  disposition  order  was  given.  The  disposition  order 
was  given  on  the  same  days  that  the  cars  arrived  here  and  these  cars 
were  unloaded  the  same  day  that  they  wore  delivered  to  the  elevator. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  period  does  that  cover? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  It  covers  the  period  principally  of  November  and 
December. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  did  you  select  those  cars — so  as  to  show  extreme 
cases  of  railroad  delay? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  Those  cars  were  selected  without  instructions  in 
the  office.  They  were  told  to  go  to  the  books  and  take  out  a  few  cars 
from  each  week  without  any  reference  to  the  numl)er  of  the  car. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  These  cases  are  typical  of  the  service  you 
have  had  during  these  two  months  2 


474  CA3   SHORTAGE. 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  They  are  not  extreme  cases? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  They  are  not  extreme  cases. 

Commissioner  Lane.  And  there  was  no  delay  on  your  part  in 
unloading  at  the  elevator  ? 

Mr.  HosENBAUM.  The  average  during  the  month  of  July  at  the 
Irondale  Elevator  in  South  Chicago — during  the  month  of  July  we 
handled  about  80  per  cent  of  the  cars  the  day  they  were  delivered. 
During  the  months  of  September  and  October  we  unloaded  about 
90  per  cent  the  day  they  were  delivered.  In  November  and  up  to 
date  we  have  unloaded  about  100  per  cent  the  day  they  were  delivered. 

Mr.  Marble.  And  the  remainmg  percentage  would  stand  simply 
until  the  next  day  ? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  It  might  be  the  next  day,  or  it  might  be  two  days, 
but  practically  all  within  the  five-day  period. 

Mr.  Marble.  Have  you  paid  some  demurrage? 

Mr.  RosEXBAUM.  \Ve  have  paid  demurrage  occasionally. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  many  cars  do  you  unload  in  the  course  of  ^  year  ? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  I  could  not  give  you  that.  * 

Mr.  Marble.  Can  you  approximate  it  ? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  No ;  I  would  not  like  to  approximate  it. 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  Well,  I  should  say  up  to  date  that  we  have  un- 
loaded in  Chicago,  since  the  1st  of  July,  in  all  our  elevators,  possiblv 
8,000  cars. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Mr.  Rosenbaum  do  you  regard  that  service 
by  the  railroads  as  good  service? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  No,  sir. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Has  it  caused  you  any  financial  loss  ? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  The  local  service  has  caused  us  a  very  little  finan- 
cial loss.  It  is  the  service  in  the  country,  and  in  the  Southwest  that 
has  caused  us  financial  loss. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  That  is,  delays  in  transit  ? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  Delays  in  getting  equipment  at  our  country  sta- 
tions. At  the  present  time  we  are  practically  closed  down  in  Okla- 
homa and  Kansas.  Our  elevators  are  full,  and  in  many  instances  we 
have  grain  on  the  ground. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  How  much  grain  do  you  suppose  you  have 
on  the  ground  ? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  I  could  not  give  you  that,  I  expected  to  be  here 
this  afternoon,  and  not  this  morning,  and  consequently  I  have  not  all 
my  figures  with  me,  but  it  is  safe  to  say  that  we  have  grain  on  the 
ground  at  possibly  eight  stations  and  that  it  will  run  very  little  less 
than  several  thousand  bushels. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Are  all  the  elevators  in  Oklahoma  and 
Kansas  practically  filled? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  They  are  all  in  the  same  boat. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Not  only  of  your  own  company,  but  of  the 
other  line  companies? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  Every  line  company  is  practically  in  the  same 
shape. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Can  you  stop  buying  grain  out  there? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  In  Oklahoma  we  have  stopped  buying  grain  to 
a  very  large  extent. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  475 

Commissioner  Harlan,  When  you  buy  grain  and  put  it  on  the 
ground,  you  buy  it  with  a  safe  margin,  having  that  in  view? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  We  don't  buy  it  to  put  it  on  the  ground.  "Wlien 
we  contracted  for  this  grain  we  expected  to  have  room  in  the  ele- 
vators to  take  it  in.  Possibly  we  had  heard  that  there  was  an  empty 
somewhere.  AVhen  the  farmer  brought  it  in  we  had  contracted  it  to 
him.  He  needed  the  money  and  there  was  nothing  else  for  us  to  do 
except  to  pay  him  and  take  the  grain. 

Mr.  Marbi<e.  Does  this  conge^sted  state  rasult  of  necessity  in  your 
paying  a  smaller  price  to  the  farmer  than  you  would  pay  if  you  had 
transportation  facilities? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Marble.  About  what  would  you  say  per  bushel  has  this  year 
been  taken  oflf  of  the  price  to  the  farmer? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  At  least  2  cents  per  bushel. 

Mr.  Marble.  That  would  be  $20  a  car? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  Yes,  sir.  And  after  we  get  the  equipment,  after 
waiting  maybe  thirty  days  at  a  station,  we  wait  another  indefinite 
period  before  it  is  delivered. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  have  to  wait  some  time  before  it  is 
moved  ? 

Mr.  RosEXBAUM.  It  will  stand  on  the  track  sometimes  two,  three, 
or  four,  or  five  days. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  are  not  able  to  get  any  cars  to  move 
grain  with  down  in  Texas  now  at  all,  are  you? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  None  at  all.  There  are  many  embargoes  out. 
Some  of  them  have  been  canceled  during  the  last  week  or  so. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  is  the  reason  for  that  congestion 
down  there? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  Congestion  of  cotton  in  Galveston. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Has  cotton  been  diverted  to  Galveston  this 
year  rather  than  going  to  New  Orleans  or  Port  Arthur,  or  any  of  • 
the  other  points  ? 

Mr.  Rosexbaum.  I  don't  know  whether  there  has  been  any  diver- 
tion,  but  fhe  amount  that  has  been  tributary  to  Galveston  has  been 
such  as  to  swamp  them.  AVe  have  been  attempting  to  move  grain 
that  has  already  arrived  within  the  Galveston  district  to  the  elevator, 
and  it  has  taken  from  three  to  ten  days  to  get  grain  to  the  elevator 
after  it  has  arrived  at  Galveston.  Previous  to  arriving  at  Galveston 
it  might  have  been  in  transit,  a  great  deal  of  it,  as  much  as  thirty 
days  from  the  Indian  Territory,  and  {)revious  to  that  time  we  have 
waited  as  much  as  thirty  days  to  get  a  car.  This,  of  course,  has 
caused  a  large  loss. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Now,  do  you  know  the  Galveston  situation  as 
to  terminals? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  Why,  fairly  well,  but  more  particularly,  how- 
ever, with  reference  to  the  Southern  Pacific  terminals  on  which  our 
elevator  is  located. 

Commis-sioner  Lane.  Are  they  adequate? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  I  think  they  are.  I  think  the  Southern  Pacific 
terminals  are.  We  have  always  found  up  to  this  year  that  we  were 
able  to  unload  more  grain  than  could  be  delivered  to  us,  with  excep- 
tions on  several  occasions,  owing  to  congestion  when  we  would  not 


476  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

receive  any  grain  for  four  or  five  days,  and  then  possibly  300  or  400 
cars  would  be  delivered  in  one  lump. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Whose  cars  .are  those  that  are  tied  up,  these 
4,000  cars?  They  wire  us  that  there  are  4,000  cars  tied  up  in  Galves- 
ton.   On  whose  tracks  are  they  ? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  AVhat  tracks? 

Commissioner  Lane.  Are  all  the  roads  coming  in  there  congested? 

Mr.  RosENBAtJM.  All  the  roads  are  congested.  As  I  say,  we  have 
grain  coming  in  on  all  the  roads  that  are  laying  in  Galveston,  and  we 
get  just  as  prompt  service  from  one  as  from  another. 

Commissioner  Lane.  The  chamber  of  commerce  telegraphs  to  us 
that  their  wharves  are  clear,  and  that  there  are  plenty  of  vessels 
waiting  there,  but  that  freight  is  delayed  in  its  movement  up  to  the 
wharves. 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  That  is  the  trouble,  the  freight  is  not  moved  to 
the  wharf.  , 

Commissioner  Lane.  Why  isn't  it? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  I  don't  know.  Two  weeks  ago  we  had  a  boat 
waiting  there  and  had  the  grain  on  the  outskirts  of  the  town  and 
could  not  get  it  to  the  elevator.     It  was  impossible  to  move  it. 

Mr.  Boyd.  I  would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Rosenbaum  to  state  his  experi- 
ence in  the  way  of  losses  by  demurrage  and  detention  of  vessels  be- 
cause of  inability  to  get  grain  to  the  port  in  order  to  fill  his  contracts. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  You  refer  to  the  port  of  Galveston  ? 

Mr.  RosENBAUM.  We  paid  as  high  as  $10,000  in  one  year  at  Gal- 
veston to  divert  boats  from  Galveston  to  other  ports,  owing  to  the 
inability  of  the  roads  to  deliver  the  grain  there. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  What  year  was  that? 

Mr.  Rosenbaum.  Three  years  ago ;  and  this  year  we  have  already 
spent  $2,000  in  demurrage  for  which,  of  course,  there  is  no  redress 
so  far. 

The  witness  was  excused. 

T.  J.  Hudson,  called  as  a  witness,  was  duly  sworn,  and  testified 
as  follows : 

Mr.  Marble.  You  are  the  general  traffic  manager  of  the  Illinpis 
Central  Railroad  ? 

Mr.  Hudson.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Marble.  Mr.  Hudson  has  prepared  certain  figures  at  my 
"request,  and  he  will  explain  what  those  figures  are,  and  their  purport. 

Mr.  Hudson.  Mr.  Daly  was  before  you  gentlemen  yesterday,  repre- 
senting our  company,  and  he  has  just  handed  me  some  figures  which 
he  wished  me  to  submit  to  you.  Their  purport  is  that  they  go  to 
show  that  we  have  kept  pace  with  the  growth  of  business  in  the  way 
of  building  cars. 

The  years  1903  to  1906,  inclusive,  our  company  has  either  purchased 
or  built  20,254  cars.  We  own  to-day,  in  round  numbers,  about 
62,000  cars,  so  you  see  that  is  about  one-third. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Your  capacity  is  much  larger? 

(The  same  is  admitted  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  1  "  to 
Mr.  Hudson's  testimony.) 

Mr.  Hudson.  I  have  here  also  a  statement,  which  I  will  hand  to 
you,  being  a  comparative  statement  of  the  traffic  facilities  for  fifteen 


CAB  SHORTAGB.  477 

years,  which  enters  into  this  matter  very  extensively,  and  which  I 
think  will  be  of  great  value  to  you,  perhaps,  in  getting  at  what  you 
want. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Are  those  the  figures  that  were  given  by  Mr. 
Fish? 

Mr.  Hudson.  Part  of  them.  I  do  not  understand  that  they  are 
the  identical  figures.  Some  othei-s  have  been  added,  and  some  |)or- 
haps  taken  out,  but  they  are  on  the  same  line.  I  do  not  think  it  will 
be  necessary  to  say  anything  about  that  further  than  to  submit  them 
to  you. 

Commissioner  Lane.  How  about  the  locomotives?  Have  you  got 
the  figures  on  them? 

Mr.  Hudson.  As  to  locomotives,  we  have,  in  the  same  period,  from 
1903  to  190G,  purchased  236  locomotives. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  you  anything  there  showing  your 
appropriations  during  the  same  period  for  roadbed  and  terminal 
facilities  ? 

Mr.  Hudson.  No,  sir;  they  are  not  shown  on  here. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  you  any  idea  now  of  what  that  appro- 
priation has  been  ? 

Mr.  Hudson.  No,  sir ;  I  could  not  say.  That  is  not  in  mv  depart- 
ment, and  consequently  I  would  not  be  able  to  ^ive  any  information 
on  that.  This  shows,  of  course,  the  facilities  in  the  way  of  tracks 
that  have  been  built  during  that  time.  It  don't  go  into  dollars  and 
cents,  but  it  gives  the  percentage  of  increase  in  tjiese  various  matters. 

Commissioner  Harlan.  AVeTl,  will  you  be  kind  enough  to  leave 
those  with  Mr.  Marble,  and  let  him  make  them  a  part  of  the  record. 
Those  are  self-explanatory,  I  Ixjlieve? 

Mr.  Hudson.  Yes,  sir. 

(The  same  are  received  in  evidence  and  marked  "  Exhibit  No.  2  "  to 
Mr.  Hudson's  testimony.) 

Commissioner  Harlan.  Is  there  any  other  matter  you  want  to  state 
to  us,  Mr.  Hudson? 

Mr.  Hudson.  No,  sir ;  I  don't  think  so,  unless  you  desire  to  ask  me 
any  questions.     I  was  subpoenaed  here. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Have  you  a  remedy  to  suggest  for  the  con- 
gestion which  is  now  found,  speaking  now  with  respect  to  your  own 
road  and  others,  as  an  expert  railroad  man? 

Mr.  Hudson.  Well,  I  think  that  advancing  the  per  diem  charge 
would  have  a  very  good  effect  in  a  dual  capacity — that  is,  of  forcing 
the  railroads  who  have  not  got  the  cars  to  build  them,  and  also  of  re- 
turning to  other  roads  their  cars,  because  the  borrowing  roads  could 
not  afford  very  well  to  pay  per  diem,  say,  of  $1.  It  is  now  50  cents, 
as  you  know,  or  most  of  the  roads  have  gone  into  that  50-cent  arrange- 
ment. That  would  have  some  effect,  we  think,  of  getting  the  cars 
back  to  their  owners,  where  they  belong,  and  if  it  is  made  $1  we  think 
it  will  have  a  much  better  effect.  Then,  of  course,  there  is  the  ques- 
tion of  facilities  of  the  consignees  and  shippers.  These  people  nave 
gone  on  building  plants,  but  they  don't  provide  storage  facilities  nor 
trackage  facilities,  and  the  consequence  is  that  the  cars  are  forced 
back  into  our  terminal  yards  here,  and  sometimes  we  have  had  as 
high  as  3,000  or  4,000  cars  standing  there  that  we  could  not  deliver 
to  connections  because  they  could  not  get  them  up  to  the  tracks  of  the 


478  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

different  plants.  They  have  facilities  for  taking  care  of  10  or  15  or 
20  cars,  while  they  will  have  50  or  60  cars  waiting  to  go  onto  their 
tracks. 

We  do  not  know  of  any  way  to  obviate  that,  except  to  keep  after 
them  all  the  time  and  try  to  get  them  to  increase  their  facilities. 
Some  of  these  plants  have  been  forced  out  of  the  large  centers  and 
have  moved  ont  to  the  suburbs.  Some  of  them  have  gone  into  smaller 
cities,  like  Kankakee,  absolutely  forced  to  do  so — forced  out  of  their 
places  here  in  order  to  get  those  facilities  which  they  can  not  get 
here.  They  can  not  get  those  facilities  here  on  account  of  the  in- 
creased size  of  their  plants  and  the  cost  incident  to  obtaining  ground. 

Mr.  Marble.  I  have  heard  the  statement  made  that  the  change  from 
the  old  mileage  charge  on  cars  to  the  20  cents  per  diem  increased  the 
movement  of  freight  cars  very  materially.  Do  you  know  whether 
that  is  true  or  not?  ^ 

Mr.  Hudson.  Increased  the  movement? 

Mr.  Marble.  Yes.  Stimulated  the  movement.  That  the  cars 
actually  moved  more  miles,  whether  on  the  home  route  or  a  foreign 
one. 

Mr.  Hudson.  I  will  ask  Mr.  Daly  to  answer  that,  as  he  is  more 
conversant  with  such  matters. 

Mr.  Marble.  How  about  that,  Mr.  Daly — did  the  change  from  the 
mileage  rate  to  the  per  diem  materially  stimulate  the  movement  of 
freight  cars  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  Yes,  sir.:  it  did.  The  20  cents  per  diem  verj*  materially 
improved  the  movement  of  cars,  especially  during  the  dull  months. 
It  kept  the  cars  at  home  in  the  summer,  so  that  we  could  repair  them 
and  put  them  in  good  condition,  and  it  also  resulted  in  giving  us 
more  of  our  cars  during  all  seasons  of  the  year,  and  20  cents  is  only 
about  one-fourth  or  one-fifth  of  what  the  value  of  the  car  is.  It 
should  be  much  higher. 

Mr  Marble.  Do  you  know  what  the  percentage  of  increase  of 
movement  resultant  from  that  per  diem  was  ? 

Mr.  Daly.  It  went  from  about  19  to  20  miles  per  day  up  to  about  25. 

Mr.  Marble.  Then  you  would  say  there  is  warrant  for  the  hope 
that  the  imposition  of  a  per  diem  that  would  be  in  the  nature  of  a 
penalty  rather  than  a  rental  for  a  car  would  have  still  more  beneficial 
results? 

Mr.  Daly.  It  certainly  would. 

Mr.  Hudson.  There  is  one  other  feature  with  reference  to  which 
the  railroads  are  all  moving  in  one  direction,  and  that  is,  the  cutting 
down  of  the  unloading  time  for  cars,  so  as  to  force  shippers  to  send 
their  shipments  direct  to  the  consignees  rather  than  send  them  for 
reconsignment.  In  the  latter  case  they  have  had  to  be  switched  and 
rehandled,  and  we  have  been  doing  that  service  for  nothing.  Now, 
the  railroads  are  thinking  of  arranging  to  put  in  a  $2  charge  or  some- 
thing of  that  kind  for  reconsigning,  which  we  think  will  have  a  good 
effect.  We  do  not  do  that  to  punish  the  consignees  at  all ;  on  the  con- 
trary, it  will  be  to  their  advantage,  because  it  will  enable  us  to  handle 
their  business  more  promptly. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  any  way  by  which  the  consignee  can 
put  some  charge  on  you  so  you  will  deliver  the  cars  promptly? 

IVIr.  Hudson.  I  do  not  know,  sir.    So  far  as  we  are  concerned  to-day, 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  479 

>     I  want  to  say  that  we  are  in  a  normal  condition.    We  have  got  more 

f     power  than  we  have  cai-s  to  move,  and  there  is  no  trouble  in  the 

handling  of  cars  on  the  Illinois  Central  Railroad  that  I  have  been 

advised  of  after  we  get  the  disposition  of  them.    While  I  have  a  great 

many  complaints  on  account  of  shortage  of  cars,  it  is  very  rarely  that  I 

have  a  complaint  as  to  their  movement;  in  fact,  I  have  not  had  one 

[     for  several  weeks.    It  shows  a  very  good  condition  in  that  respect  on 

'     our  line  of  road. 

Commissioner  Lane.  I  think,  with  profit,  you  might  very  well  be 
transferred  to  some  other  lines  of  which  we  have  heard. 

Mr.  Marble.  Now,  while  there  are  many  other  witnesses  in  Chi- 
cago, whom  perhaps  you  would  like  to  hear,  their  testimony  would  be 
largely  cumulative. 

Commissioner  Lane.  We  have  no  more  subpcenas  out,  have  we? 

Mr.  Marble.  No,  your  honor.  The  figures  from  Bartlett,  Frazier, 
and  Carrington  I  will  put  in  the  record,  and  the  figures  referred  to 
by  Mr.  Marcy,  showing  the  unloading  time. 

Commissioner  Lane.  Is  there  any  gentleman  representing  either 
the  shippers  or  the  railroads  who  desires  to  be  further  heard? 

(No  response.) 

Commissioner  Lane.  This  hearing  is  adjourned. 

Thereupon,  at  1  p.  m.,  the  Commission  adjourned. 


STATEMENT  OF  PAPERS  FILED  IN  CONNECTION 
WITH  TESTIMONY  TAKEN  IN  CAR-SHORTAGE  IN- 
VESTIGATION AT  MINNEAPOLIS,  MINN.,  DECEM- 
BER 17, 18,  AND  19,  1906,  AND  AT  CHICAGO,  ILL., 
DECEMBER  20  AND  21, 1906. 


S.  Doc.  333, 59-2 31 


STATEMENT  OF  PAPERS  FILED  IN  CONNECTION  WITH  TESTI- 
MONY TAKEN  IN  CAR-SHORTAGE  INVESTIGATION  AT  MINNE- 
APOLIS, MINN.,  AND  CHICAGO,  ILL. 


Record  file  No,  1. — Jamme,  L.  T..  secretary  Chamber  of  Commerce  of  Minne- 
apolis, Minn. 

Comparative  statement  of  receipts  of  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  s€  Paul 
Railway  Company,  Chicago,  St.  Paul,  Minneapolis  and  Omaha  Railway  Com- 
pany, Minneapolis  and  St.  Louis  Railway  Company,  Wisconsin  Central  Rail- 
way Company,  Great  Northern  Railway  Company,  Northern  Pacific  Railway 
Company,  Chicago  Great  Western  Railway  Company,  Chicago,  Burlington  and 
Quincy  Railway  Company,  Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  and  Sault  Ste.  Marie  Railway 
Company,  and  the  Chicago,  Rock  Island  and  Pacific  Railway  Company,  for  the 
years  1903,  1904,  1905,  and  1906.     (Exhibit  1.) 

Record  file  No.  2. — Moore,  H.  B.,  secretary  Duluth  Board  of  Trade,  Dtihith, 

Minn. 

2.  Letter  dated  November  20,  1906,  from  H.  B.  Moore,  to  the  Great  Northern 
Railway  Company,  Northern  Pacific  Railway  Company,  and  the  Chicago.  St. 
Paul,  Minneapolis  and  Omaha  Railway  Company,  complaining  of  delay  in  move- 
ment of  grain  destined  to  ix)ints  at  the  head  of  the  Lakes.     (Exhibit  1.) 

2-1.  Copy  of  reply  of  E.  C.  Blanchard,  superintendent.  Northern  Pacific  Rail- 
way Company,  dated  November  21,  1906,  to  Mr.  Moore's  letter  giving  assurance 
that  everything  possible  would  be  done  to  relieve  the  condition  complained  of. 
(Exhibit  No.  2.) 

2-2.  Copy  of  letter  of  D.  M.  Philbin,  assistant  general  superintendent  Great 
Northern  Railway  Company,  dated  November  22,  190G,  in  answer  to  Mr.  Moore's 
letter,  stating  that  Great  Northern  Railway  will  use  every  effort  to  provide 
necessary  transportation  facilities,  and  that  delay  had  been  due  to  congestion 
at  Superior  and  Duluth  caused  by  increase  of  business  and  difficulty  in  securing 
trainmen  to  handle  yard  traffic.     (Exhibit  No.  3.) 

2-3.  Letter,  dated  December  15,  1906,  to  H.  B.  Moore,  from  McKindley  & 
Nicholls,  of  Duluth,  Minn.,  in  regard  to  delay  in  movement  of  grain  shipped 
by  them,  and  inclosing  statement  showing  the  date  they  were  advised  of  ship- 
ment, date  of  inspection,  car  initials,  and  car  number.     (Exhibit  No.  4.) 

2-4.  Statement  of  Minnesota  Grain  Company,  giving  instances  of  delay  and 
complaining  of  insufficient  transportation  facilities.     (Exhibit  No.  5.) 

2-5.  Letter,  dated  December  15,  1906,  from  William  Dalrymple,  of  Duluth, 
Minn.,  to  H.  B.  Moore,  inclosing  list  of  cars  shipped  to  him  over  various  lines, 
and  giving  dates  of  shipment,  shipping  points,  car  number,  date  unloaded  at 
elevator,  and  number  of  days  such  shipments  were  in  transit.     (Exhibit  No.  6.) 

2-6.  Letter,  dated  December  15,  1906,  from  Grain  Producers'  Elevator  Com- 
pany, of  Duluth.  Minn.,  to  H.  B.  Moore,  stating  the  number  of  cars  shipped  to 
them  which  were  twenty  days  or  more  in  transit.     (Exhibit  No.  7.) 

2-7.  Letter,  dated  December  15,  1906,  from  Randall-Gee  &  Mitchell,  of 
Duluth,  Minn.,  to  H.  B.  ^loore,  inclosing  statement  of  cars  which  were  not  less 
than  fourteen  days  in  transit,  and  giving  car  initials,  car  number,  point  of 
shipment,  date  advised  of  shipment,  and  date  of  arrival  in  Duluth.  (Exhibit 
No.  8.) 

2-8.  Letter  dated  December  15,  1906,  from  H.  Poehler  Company  to  H.  B. 
Moore,  giving  statement  of  shipment  to  Duluth,  showing  date  of  shipment,  car 
Initials,  car  number,  point  of  shipment,  and  date  unloaded.     (Exhibit  No.  9.) 

2-9.  Letter  dated  December  15,  1906,  from  the  Atwood-Larson  Company,  of 
Duluth,  Minn.,  to  H.  B,  Moore,  inclosing  list  of  cars  considered  to  have  been  an 
unreasonable  length  of  time  in  transit     (Exhibit  No.  10.) 

480 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  481 

2-10.  Letter  dated  December  15,  1906,  from  the  John  Miller  Ctompauy,  Duluth, 
Minn.,  to  H.  B.  Moore,  giving  statement  covering  r>80  cars,  and  giving  the 
number  of  days  same  were  in  transit.     (Exhibit  No.  11.) 

2-11.  I^etter  dated  December  15,  IfKMJ,  from  Freemire,  Remund  &  Ck).,  of 
Duluth,  Minn.,  to  H.  B.  Moore,  giving  statement  of  cars  shipi)ed  from  points 
in  North  Dakota,  giving  date  of  shipment,  point  of  shipment,  car  initials, 
car  numlnT.  date  of  manifest,  and  date  unloade<l.     (Exhil)it  No.  12.) 

2-12.  Ix>tter  dateil  IX>ceml)er  15.  lOOT..  from  Arbogast  &  Hall,  Duluth,  Minn., 
to  II.  B.  Moore,  inclosing  list  of  cars  wlilch  they  regard  as  having  been  an 
unreasonable  length  of  time  In  transit.     (Kxhlbit  No.  13.) 

2-13.  Ixjtter  dated  December  18,  1906,  from  II.  B.  Moore  to  the  Interstate 
Commerce  Commission,  correcting  his  testimony  in  regard  to  amount  of  grain 
in  elevators  at  Duluth  and  Sui>erior  on  December  13. 

Record  file  No.  S. — Blanchard,  E.  C,  superiHtciKlcnt,  Ik'urtlurn  Paclflc  Railtcay 

Company. 

3.  .Map  of  Superior,  Wis.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

3-1.  Map  of  railway  systems  in  Duluth  and  Superior.     (Exhibit  No.  2.) 

3-2.  Map  showing  the  Northern  Pacific  yard  at  Rice's  I'oint,  Duluth,  MIdq 

(Exhibit  No.  .3.) 
3-.3.  Letter  from  E.  C.  Blanchard  addresswl  to  .John  H.  Marble,  attorney  for 

the  Connnission.  datetl  December  10,   1!HM!.   Inclosing,  as  recpiested.  statement 

showing  the  time  on  road  of  through  freiglit  trains  in  the  month  of  November, 

1906;  Ijike  Sui>erior  division,  second  and  third  districts. 

Record  file   No.   ^.—^Hehncr,    E.   E..   northwestern    salca   agent,   St.   Paul   and 
Western  Coal  Company,  8t.  Paul,  Minn. 

4.  lyctter  of  Messrs.  Gartlaud  &  Dunlevy  dated  December  13,  1906,  addressed 
to  .7.  II.  Marble,  inclosing  card  showing  that  a  car  of  Hocking  Valley  coal  was 
shipped  from  Northwest(M-n  Fuel  Company  on  November  13  and  stating  that 
this  car  had  not  been  rix-eivetl. 

4-1.  letter  dateil  DtH-ember  10,  1906.  addressed  to  Messrs.  Gartland  &  Dun- 
levy.  Yale.  S.  Dak.,  by  Mr.  Ileimer,  stating  that  they  can  not  entertain  his  order 
for  two  cars  of  Hocking  lump  coal  via  the  Great  Northern,  as  they  are  re- 
ceiving practically  no  cars  over  that  line.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

Record  file  No.  5. — Dieson,  A.  O.,  chief  clerk,  M.  A.  II anna  Coal  Company. 

5.  Memorandum  showing  that  the  M.  A.  Ilanna  Coal  Company  shipi»e<l  from 
Su|)erior  Dock  on  November  3,  car  of  hard  coal.  consigne<l  to  .Tos.  Salley,  Red 
Lake  Falls,  Minn.,  and  that  the  car  arrived  at  destination  December  15;  letter 
to  the  Great  Northern  Railway  asking  them  to  trace  this  shipment;  statement 
of  the  shipments  of  the  Ilanna  Coal  Company  from  November  1  to  December 
15,  1906,  inclusive.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

Record  /We  No.  6. — Cockey,  W.  P.,  manufacturer  of  lime,  etc. 

6.  Correspondence  between  the  Superior  Manufacturing  Company  and  officials 
of  the  Minneapolis.  St.  Paul  and  Sault  Ste.  Marie  Railway  Company  and  various 
<*ojisignoes  relative  to  delay  In  the  delivery  of  shipments  of  lime,  plaster,  and 
sMlt.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

Record  file  No.  7. — Kassebamn,  A.  B.,  employee  of  Superior  Manufacturing  Com- 
pany. MtnneapoUs,  Minn. 

7.  Statement  of  delayed  shipments  of  the  Superior  Manufacturing  Company, 
of  Minneapolis.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

Record  file  No.  8. — Sicanson,  A.  E.,  president  Securities  State  Bank,  Barlow, 

N.  Dak. 

8.  Photograph  showing  wheat  piled  on  ground  at  Barlow,  N.  Dak.  (Exhibit 
No.   1.) 

8-1.  Memorandum  in  regard  to  cars  received  at  and  shipped  from  Barlow, 
N.  Dak.,  and  the  time  in  transit     (Exhibit  No.  2.) 


482  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Record  file  No.  9. — Grover,  H.  8.,  cashier  State  Bank,  of  Lisbon,  N.  Dak. 

9.  Statement,  dated  December  15,  390f),  showing  number  of  cars  received  by 
him  for  loading  since  September  1,  1905,  and  time  shipments  were  in  transit. 
(Exhibit  No.  1.) 

9-1.  Memorandum  regarding  the  car  situation  at  Elliot  Station,  N.  Dak.  (Ex- 
hibit No.  2.) 

9-2.  Statement  of  Sorenson  Milling  Company,  dated  December  15,  1906,  in 
regard  to  supply  of  cars  at  Lisbon,  N.  Dak.  State  they  have  had  to  close  down 
their  mill  as  they  could  got  no  coal,  owing  to  the  shortage  of  cars,  and  giving 
instances  of  delay  in  movement  of  coal  consigned  to  the  milling  company. 
(Exhibit  No.  3.) 

9-3.  Statement  of  the  cars  received  and  loaded  at  the  Lisbon  elevator,  Lisbon, 
N.  Dak.,  from  September  1  to  December  15,  1906,  as  compared  with  1905. 
(Exhibit  No.  4.) 

9-4.  Letter,  dated  November  23,  1906,  from  McCarthy  Brothers  Company  to 
\V.  Rawson,  Lisbon,  N.  Dak.,  stating  that  car  destined  for  his  elevator  was 
inspected  on  the  7th  and  ordered  to  the  elevator,  but  has  not  as  yet  arrived ;  has 
made  numerous  complaints  to  the  railroads,  but  without  avail.  Letter  dated 
November  26,  1906,  fi'om  McCarthy  Brothers  Company  inclosing  memorandum 
of  the  grade  and  dockage  of  his  car  of  durum  wheat,  and  complaining  of 
service  of  railway  company.  Letter  dated  December  1,  1906,  to  W.  Kawson  by 
the  John  Miller  Company  regarding  the  underweight  of  car  of  grain  delivered 
to  the  Miller  Company  and  comi)laining  of  railway  facilities.     (Exhibit  No.  5.) 

Record  file  No.  10. — Billings,  Earnest,  director,  Farmers'  Elevator  Company, 

Lisbon,  N.  Dak. 

10.  Letter  dated  December  14,  1906,  to  the  board  of  directors  of  Farmers' 
Elevator  and  Mercantile  Company,  Lisbon.  N.  Dak.,  giving  a  statement  of 
the  number  of  cars  received  by  him  from  the  Northern  Pacific  Railway  and 
loaded  from  September  1,  lOOtj.  to  December  14.  lOOU.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

10-1.  Letter  from  F.  A.  Rector,  agent,  to  E.  Billings,  dated  December  17, 
giving  a  statement  of  the  number  of  cars  received  by  the  above  elevator  for  the 
months  of  September  to  December,  1906,  inclusive.     (Exhibit  No.  2.) 

Record  file  No.  11. — Marble,  J.  H.,  attorney.  Interstate  Commerce  Commission. 

11.  Photograph  showing  blockade  of  wagons  of  grain  at  elevator  at  Anamoose, 
N.  Dak.,  on  the  Minneapolis,  St.  Paul  and  Sault  Ste.  Marie  Railway  Company, 
on  October  25,  1906.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

11-1.  Photograph  showing  60.000  bushels  of  wheat  in  the  open  at  New  Rock- 
ford,  N.  Dak.,  on  November  7,  1906,  all  elevators  being  full.     (Exhibit  No.  2.) 

11-2.  Photograph  showing  wagons  of  grain  waiting  at  the  elevator  at  Shey- 
enne,  N.  Dak.,  on  the  Northern  Pacific  Railway.     (Exhibit  No.  3.) 

11-3.  Photograph  of  the  Royal  elevator  at  Courtenay,  N.  Dak.,  and  grain 
piled  on  the  ground.     (Exhibit  No.  4.) 

11-^.  Photograph  showing  112,000  bushels  of  wheat  in  a  bin  in  the  open  air 
at  New  Rockford,  N.  Dak.     (Exhibit  No.  5.) 

11-5.  Copy  of  the  report  of  the  committee  on  the  grain  blockade  at  Wilton, 
N.  Dak.,  to  the  Commercial  Club  at  Wilton.     (Exhibit  No.  6.) 

11-6.  Photograph  showing  60,000  bushels  of  wheat  in  the  open  air  and  snowed 
under  at  New  Rockford,  N.  Dak.,  December  13,  1906.     (Exhibit  No.  7.) 

11-7.  Letter  dated  December  15,  1906.  from  Senator  Hansbrough,  to  the 
Commission,  inclosing  two  newspaper  clippings  and  suggesting  that  certain 
persons  be  subpoinaed.     (Exhibit  No.  8.) 

11-8.  Letter  of  Senator  Hansbrough.  dated  December  3,  1906.  to  the  Chair- 
man of  the  Commission,  asking  whether  the  Commission  has  authority  under 
the  present  law  to  compel  an  interstate  carrier  to  furnish  adequate  amount  of 
equipment  to  conduct  the  traffic  along  its  line,  and  reply  of  the  Chairman 
thereto.     (Exhibit  No.  9.) 

11-9.  Letter  of  Hon.  A.  J,  Gronna,  M.  C,  regarding  car  shortage  in  North 
Dakota. 

11-10.  Various  letters  addressed  to  Hon.  Thomas  F.  Marshall,  M.  C.  and  to 
the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  from  points  in  North  Dakota  regarding  the 
car  situation,  showing  shortage  of  cars  and  insufficient  transportation  facilities. 
(Exhibit  No.  10.) 

11-11.  Extracts  from  the  minutes  of  the  meeting  of  the  Pacific  Coast  Lumber 
Manufacturers'  Association  held  at  Seattle,  Wash.,  November  26,  1906.  relative 
to  car  shortage  and  statement  of  the  Pacific  Coast  Manufacturers'  Association 
showing  the  car  situation.     (Exhibit  No.  11.) 


•CAB   SHORTAGE.  483 

Record  file  No.  12. — Blade,  George  T.,  general  superintendent.  Great  Vorthem 

Railway  Company. 

12.  Statement  showing  the  nunil)er  of  Great  Nortliern  cars  on  foreign  roads 
and  the  nuinbor  of  foreign  cars  on  the  Great  Northern  Uallway  from  September 
6,  1900,  to  Dei-ember  7,  190G,  inclusive,  by  weeks.     (E.Khibit  No.  1.) 

Record  file  No.  IS. — Horn,  H.  J.,  general  manager.  Northern  Pacific  Railway 

Company. 

13.  Statement  showing  the  number  of  foreign  cars  on  the  Northern  Pacific 
Railway  and  the  number  of  Northern  Pacific  cars  on  foreign  lines.  (Exhibit 
No.  1.) 

Record  file  No.  H. — Pennington,  Edmund,  vice-president  and  general  manager, 
Minneapolis,  8t.  Paul  and  Sault  8te.  Marie  Raihray. 

14.  Statement  showing  the  car  balance  on  the  Minneapolis.  St  Paul  and  Sault 
Ste.  Marie  Itailway  on  l>eoeniber  12,  190C;  showing  the  number  of  foreign  cars 
on  Soo  line  and  the  number  of  Soo  cars  on  foreign  roads.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

Record  file  No.   15. — Loftus,   Oeorge   8.,  'manager,   Loftua-Hubbard   Elevator 

Company. 

15.  CorresiJondence  relating  to  delay  in  delivery  of  carload  of  oats  ordered 
shlpiKMl  to  Deer  Ulver.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

15-1.  Shii)plng  Instructions  on  carload  of  oats  from  Rolla,  N,  Dak.,  to  l)e 
shl|)iKHl  to  Deer  River.     (Exhibit  No.  2.) 

15-2.  letter  from  Geo.  S.  Loftus  to  the  Railroad  and  Warehouse  Commission 
of  Minnesota  In  regard  to  the  n\iml)er  of  cars  now  In  the  railroad  yards  at 
Dulnth  ready  to  be  unloaded ;  states  that  if  cars  arc  not  immediately  set  for 
unloading  large  loss  will  be  Incurred  from  decline  In  market  and  demurrage 
charges ;  asks  that  the  connnisslon  endejivor  to  secure  prompt  movement  of 
cars.     (Exhll)lt  No.  4.) 

15-3.  Freight  bills  showing  delay  In  delivery  of  shiinnents  via  various  lines. 
(Exhibit  No.  7.) 

15-4.  r>etters  from  K.  N.  Bragestad,  of  Gary,  Minn.,  dated  November  14,  190G, 
to  Ix)ftus-Hu1»l>ard  Elevator  Compan/",  stating  that  he  Is  unable  to  get  any  cars 
for  hay  shipments.     (F]xhiblt  No.  9.) 

15-5.  I.«tter  from  W.  1'.  Chase,  dated  NovemlK'r  30.  1900,  to  the  Loftus-IIub- 
bard  Elevator  Company,  regarding  their  inability  to  get  sutticlent  cars  for  hay 
shipments.     (Exhibit  No.   10.) 

15-G.  CorresiH)ndence  between  the  Railroad  and  Warehouse  Commission  of 
Minnesota  and  the  Ix)ftus-nul)bard  Elevator  Company  regarding  delay  in 
movement  of  various  cars  on  different  lines.     (Exhibit  No.  11.) 

15-7.  Staten)ent  of  cars  shlpi)ed  between  October  1  and  December  1,  showing 
the  delay  in  transit  or  In  placing  the  cars  where  delivery  could  be  effecteil. 
Also  various  freight  bills  and  letters  relating  thereto.     (Exhibit  No.  12.) 

16-8.  letter  from  Wlemer  &  Rich,  dated  October  13  and  17  and  November  2 
and  9,  1900,  to  the  Ixjftus-Mubbard  Elevator  Company,  in  regard  to  their 
inability  to  secure  cars  for  hay  shipments.     (Exhibit  No.  13.) 

15-9.  I>etter  from  S.  C.  Moore,  dated  December  18.  1900,  to  Ijoftus-IIubbard 
Elevator  Comi^any.  on  the  same  subject.     (Exhibit  No.  14.) 

15-10.  Various  paiters  relating  to  shipment  of  car  of  oats  purchased  from 
the  Imperial  F^levator  Company.     (Exhibit  No.  15.) 

15-11.  Agreement  of  II.  A.  I'eck,  datetl  September  12.  1900,  with  the  Ix)ftU8- 
Huhbard  Elevator  Company  to  deliver  710  tons  of  hay  to  be  loaded  l>efore 
No%emlH'r  15,  1900. 

1.5-12.  I^etters  from  the  Ulen  Mercantile  Ck)mpany  to  Tx)ftU8-Hubbard  Ele- 
vator Company,  relating  to  the  car  shortage  at  t^len,  Minn.     (PLxhlblt  No.  17.) 

1.5-1.3.  C«)rr€»siM)nden<-e  between  the  Minnesota  Shippers  and  Receivers'  Asso- 
ciation and  a.  II.  Cunningham,  regarding  the  Inadequate  numl>er  of  cars  fur- 
nished Mr.  Cunningham,  of  Sturgeon  Lake,  Minn. 

Record  file  No.  16. — Hawley,  A.  H.,  safety-appliance  inspector.  Interstate  Com- 
merce Commission,  Davenport,  Iowa. 

10.  Statement  showing  the  em|)ty  cars  on  the  tracks  of  the  Great  Northern 
Railway  Company  noted  by  him  while  en  route  from  Spokane,  Wash.,  to 
Minneapolis. 


484  CAB  SHORTAGE.- 

Record  file  No.  17. — Winter,  O.  B.,  safety-appUattce  inspector.  Interstate  Com- 
merce Commission,  Salt  Lake  City,  Utah. 

17.  Statements  showing  empty  cars  on  the  tracks  of  the  Northern  Pacific  be- 
tween Spokane,  Wash.,  and  Minneapolis,  Minn.,  noted  by  personal  observation. 

Record  file  No.  18. — Richards,  I.  B.,  car  accountant.  Northern  Pacific  Railway 

Company. 

IS.  Statement  showing  the  fuel  situation  on  the  Dakota  division  of  the 
Northern  Pacific  Railway  Company  on  December  16,  1906.  ^ 

18-1.  Statement  showing  the  fuel  situation  on  the  Minnosota  division  of  the 
Northern  Pacific  Railway  on  December  16,  1906. 

Record  file  No.  19. — De  Veau,  James,  grain  mercliant,  Minneapolis  and  Duluth. 

Minn. 

19.  Statement  showing  the  delay  in  movement  of  freight,  the  name  of  railroad 
on  which  said  delays  occurred,  date  of  shipment,  car  number,  point  of  shipment, 
date  of  inspection,  and  date  of  unloading  at  Duluth. 

Record  file  No.  iO. — Hill,  James  J.,  president.  Great  Northern  Railway  Company. 

20.  Statement  showing  the  number  of  tons  of  revenue  freight  carried  over  the 
Great  Northern  Railway  Line  for  the  years  1902  to  1906.  inclusive;  also  the 
number  of  tons  of  revenue  freight  hauled  1  mile  from  June  30,  1883,  to  date. 

20-1.  Statement  of  the  locomotives  on  the  Great  Noi-thern  system  and  the 
traction  power  employed  from  June  30,  1901,  to  December  1,  1906. 

20-1.  Statement  showing  number  of  cars  and  tonnage  capacity  of  revenue- 
freight  equipment,  June  1,  1901,  to  December  1,  1906. 

20-3.  Comparative  statement  of  tons  moved  1  mile  and  density  of  traffic  for 
year  ended  June  30,  1906. 

20-4.  Density  of  traflic  of  Lake  Shore  and  Michigan  Southern  Railroad,  New 
York  Central  and  Hudson  River  Railroad,  and  Pennsylvania  division  of  Penn- 
sylvania Railroad  for  1905. 

20-5.  Statement  of  various  divisions  showing  tons  moved  1  mile,  average  tons 
per  train  mile  and  per  loaded  car  mile,  mileage,  and  ton-miles  per  mile  of 
main  track  for  the  mouths  of  July,  August,  September,  and  October,  1905  and 
1906. 

20-6.  Statement  of  railway  mileage  in  the  United  States  for  1870,  1880,  1890, 
1904,  and  1906. 

20-7.  List  of  unfilled  orders  calling  for  immediate  shipment  on  December  15, 

i9oa 

Record  file  No.  21. — Marble,  J.  If.,  attorney.  Interstate  Commerce  Commission. 

21.  Letter  from  G.  H.  Reeves,  secretary  and  treasurer  of  the  Northwestern 
Retail  Coal  Dealers'  Association,  to  J.  H.  Marble,  inclosing  letter  from  Fred  J. 
Kruse,  of  La  Moure,  N.  Dak.,  regarding  delay  in  shipments  from  Superior  and 
also  eastern  points.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

21-1.  Letter  from  E.  E.  Heiner,  to  the  Commission,  with  reference  to  two 
specified  cases  of  delay  in  shipments  of  fuel  and  inclosing  letters  in  r^ard 
thereto  from  Harry  T.  Alsop.  of  Fargo,  N.  Dak.,  and  W.  F.  Hanks  &  Co.,  of 
Pleasant  Lake,  N.  Dak.     (Exhibit  No.  2.) 

21-2.  Letter  complaining  of  the  delay  in  furnishing  cars  for  cattle  shipments 
at  McClusky,  N.  Dak.,  and  delay  in  movement  of  same  when  loaded :  also 
complaining*  of  lade  of  cars  for  grain  and  cattle  shipments  at  New  Rockford, 
N.  Dak.,  and  inclosing  photograph  of  cattle  kept  in  open  pen  at  McClusky  from 
December  7  to  12  because  of  failure  of  railway  to  furnish  cars;  at  this  time 
the  mercury  ranged  as  low  as  26°  below  zero.     (Exhibit  No.  3.) 

21-3.  Letter  from  the  Sorenson  Milling  Company,  dated  Deceml)er  14,  1906, 
to  editor,  Minneapolis.  Minn.,  regarding  their  inability  to  secure  an  adequate 
supply  of  cars  for  shipment  of  wheat  on  hand;  also  referring  to  small  fuel 
8UW>iy.     (Exhibit  No.  4.) 

21-4.  Letter  to  the  Minneapolis  Journal,  dated  November  30,  1906,  from  Soren- 
son's  elevator  at  iledbery,  N.  Dak.,  complaining  of  car  shortage  and  discrimi- 
nation against  Medl)ery  in  distribution  of  cars.     (Exhibit  No.  5.) 

21-5.  Letter  dated  Decembo-  14,  1906,  from  the  Farmers'  Cooperative  Ele- 
vator Company,  of  Oriska,  N.  Dak.,  to  J.  H.  Marble  giving  the  number  of  cars 


CAB   SHOBTAGE.  485 

received  and  shipped  last  year  as  ttunpared  with  the  present  year,  and  stating 
tliat  owing  to  the  inal)iiity  to  sci'ure  cars  they  had  been  «><»ni|)elletl  to  close 
tlieir  elevator.     (Exhibit  No.  6.) 

21-6.  Letter  dated  I>eceuiber  27.  1906,  from  Thomas  Gauf;Iian,  of  Verona, 
N.  Dak.,  to  the  State  Banlc  of  Lisbon.  N.  l>ak..  statinjr  that  lie  is  unable  to  get 
any  cars  in  whifh  to  ship  jrrain :  letter  of  cashier  of  State  Rank,  Lisl>on,  trans- 
mitting said  letter  to  the  Minneapolis  Journal.     (FIxhibit  No.  7.) 

21-7.  Letter  from  F.  M.  Sniitli.  (liito<l  I>cceml>er  1.  IIMMJ.  to  the  editor  of  the 
M!nneai)olis  Journal,  statins  that  Clifford,  N.  Dak.,  has^  lost  at  least  $2r>.(>U0 
worth  of  business  on  act-ount  of  the  present  car  shortaKe.     (Kxlill»it  No.  8.) 

21-8.  Letter  dated  Det-ember  11,  190<).  from  George  A.  Wells,  secretary  of  the 
Iowa  Grain  Dealers'  As.»<ociation.  to  tlie  Interstate  Commerce  Connnission.  in 
regard  to  the  car  shortage,  and  inclosing  blank  forms  of  report  of  ear  supply 
by  grain  dealers.   (Exhibit  No.  9.) 

21-9.  Letter  dated  I>ecenilH>r  12.  190(>.  from  A,  D.  Tomlinson,  of  New  Rock- 
ford,  N.  Dak.,  to  J.  II.  Marltle,  stating  that  they  are  unable  to  get  adequate  car 
facilities  to  handle  their  grain.     (Exhibit  No.  10.) 

Record  file  No.  22. — McKenna,  -E.  IF.,  second  vice-president,  Chicago,  ililtcaiikee 
and  8t.  Paul  Railicay  Company. 

22.  Statement  showing  the  car  situation  of  the  Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  St 
Paul  Railway,  the  Increase  In  ton  mileage,  car  efliclency,  car  shortage,  etc. 

22-1.  letter  dated  Deceml>er  24,  1906,  to  Commissioner  Lane,  inclosing  the 
following  statements : 

Inventorj*  of  locomotive  and  freight-car  equipment  for  the  fiscal  years  ending 
June  30,  1901  to  1900,  Inclusive;  tons  revenue  freight  carried  one  mile  for  the 
same  i)erlod. 

Statement  of  car  balance  l)Otween  the  Chicago,  ^Iihvauk(H»  and  St.  Paul 
Rallwaiv  Companj*  and  various  roads  at  different  dates  lictween  July  1  to  De- 
cember"20,  1906. 

Record  file  No.  2S. — Sanford,  C.  If'.,  manager,  Chicago  Car  Service  Association. 

23.  letter  dated  Deceml>er  30,  190<l.  from  C.  W.  Sanford  to  the  Commission, 
tran.smlttlng.  as  re<iueste<l.  certsvin  stntenients  reljitive  to  the  Chicago  Car  Serv- 
ice Association,  the  territory  of  same,  the  cars  hiindled  in  said  territory  under 
car-demurrage  rules,  the  time  allowed  conunodltles  for  unloading,  etc. 

Record  file  No.  ?.J. — Daly,  John  M.,  car  accountant,  7/Knofo  Central  Railroad. 

24.  Rejiort  showing  Illinois  Central  equipment  on  foreign  railroads  and  for- 
eign railroad  and  private  line  cars  on  the  Illinois  Central  Railroad  and  the  Yazoo 
and  Mississippi  Valley  Railroad. 

Record  file  No.  25. — Midgley,  J.  W.,  Chicago,  III. 

2J5.  List  of  railroad  companies  which  have  signed  the  car-hire  agreement  to 
and  Inclu'lliig  I)c(cnil)er  12,  1!KK»;  basis  of  Interchange,  50  cents  i)er  car  iHjr  day, 
effective  Deceml>er  1,  1906, 

Record  file  No.  2ti.— Anderson,  M.  C,  Franksville,  Wis. 

26.  I/etter  dated  Decen)f>er  17,  1906,  from  M.  C.  Anderson,  addressed  to  the 
Commission,  explaining  dlttlculty  In  securing  cars  for  shipment  of  cabbage. 

26-1.  Two  photograpiis  siiowlng  caltbage  piled  on  vacant  lot  at  Franksville, 
Wis. 

Record  file  No.  27. — Kruttschnitt,  Julius,  director  of  maintenance  and  operation, 

I'nion  Pacific  Railiray. 

27.  Comparison  of  freight  tratflc  handled  and  capacity  of  available  equipment 
for  fiscal  years  ending  June  .30.  1902  to  1906,  inclusive,  and  estimate  for  1907. 

27-1.  Chart  showing  the  above. 

27-2.  Statement  showing  mileage  and  miles  of  sidings  and  double  track  for 
each  1.000  miles  of  main  track. 
27-3.  Chart  showing  the  above. 


486  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

Record  file  No.  28. — Willard,  D.,  second  vice-president,  Chicago,  Burlington 
and  Quincy  Railway  Company. 

28.  Transportation  report  for  the  20th  of  December,  190G,  showing  the 
movement  of  the  loaded  and  empties  for  the  entire  system. 

28-1.  Letter  from  D.  Willard,  dated  December  29,  1906,  addressed  to  Com- 
missioner Lane,  transmitting,  as  reijuested,  the  following:  Statement  showing 
amounts  expended  by  the  company  for  additional  equipment,  tracks,  terminal 
facilities,  etc.,  for  the  past  five  years ;  and  car  balance  report  from  September 
5,  1906,  to  December  18,  1906,  showing  the  number  of  Chicago,  Burlington  and 
Quincy  cars  on  foreign  lines  and  the  number  of  foreign  Gai"s  on  the  Chicago, 
Burlington  and  Quincy  lines. 

Record  file  No.  29. — Marble,  J.  H.,  attorney  Interstate  Commerce  Commission. 

29.  Letter  dated  December  12,  190(5,  to  Hon.  Thomas  F.  Marshall,  M,  C,  from 
the  Farmers'  Elevator  Company,  of  Maza,  N.  Dak.,  regarding  their  inability  to 
secure  cars  to  move  their  grain. 

20-1.  Similar  letter  dated  December  8,  1906,  from  the  Commercial  Club  of 
Minot,  N.  Dak. 

29-2.  Letter  dated  December  8,  1906,  from  C.  B.  Hughes,  of  Rugby,  N.  Dak., 
to  the  Minneapolis  Journal  as  to  insufficient  transportation  facilities  at  Rugby, 
N.  Dak.,  and  Tunbridge,  and  reporting  shortage  of  cars  at  Rugby  and  Pleasant 
Lake  and  Tunbridge,  N.  Dak. 

29-3.  Ijetter  dated  November  30,  1906,  from  Judd  Williams,  manager  of 
Kensal  Farmers'  Elevator,  Kensal,  N.  Dak.,  to  the  Minneapolis  Journal  as  to 
car  shortage  at  Kensal,  N.  Dak. 

20-4.  Cartoon  prepared  by  the  manager  of  the  Illinois  and  Iowa  Car  Service 
Association  favoring  demurrage  rate  of  $3  a  day  and  a  reconsignment  charge 
of  $5  per  car. 

Record  file  No.  SO. — Stickney,  W.  M.,  of  Lowell,  Hoit  d  Co.,  grain  merchants, 

Chicago,  III. 

30.  Copy  of  circular  letter  addressed  to  the  grain  merchants  in  Iowa  and 
Illinois,  regarding  the  shortage  of  cars,  loss  thus  sustained,  etc.,  and  replies 
thereto.     ( Exhibit  No.  1. ) 

30-1.  Reply  of  C.  G.  Messerole,  secretary  of  the  Farmers'  Grain  Dealers'  As- 
sociation of  Iowa,  dated  December  14,  1906,  to  the  circular  above  referred  to. 
(Exhibit  No.  2.) 

30-2.  Letter  from  the  Seneca  Grain,  Lumber  and  Supply  Company,  dated  De- 
cember 14,  1900,  in  answer  to  the  circular.     (Exhibit  No.  3.) 

30-3.  Statement  showing  shipments  of  grain  from  Iowa  during  January,  1906, 
to  Lowell,  Hoit  &  Co.     (Exhibit  No.  4.) 

Record  file  No.  SI. — Defebaugh,  J.  E.,  editor  of  the  American  Lumberman. 

31.  Statement  prepared  for  the  Commission  regarding  the  car-shortage  ques- 
tion and  the  effect  of  same  as  related  to  the  lumber  trade,  and  suggesting  rem- 
edy for  present  unsatisfactory  conditions. 

31-1.  Reprint  from  the  American  Lumberman — "  Call  for  a  national  recipro- 
cal demurrage  convention." 

31-2.  Extracts  from  the  American  Lumberman  (December  15,  1906)  ;  out- 
line of  the  existing  unsatisfactory  transportation  conditions  and  suggested 
remedy  for  improvement ;    lumber  trade  difficulties  leading  up  to  the  call. 

31-3.  Various  letters  addressed  to  the  American  Lumberman,  containing  in- 
dorsements of  reciprocal  demurrage  and  the  call  for  a  convention. 

31-4.  Various  letters  addressed  to  the  American  Lumberman  as  to  the  gen- 
eral situation. 

31-5.  Various  letters  addressed  to  the  American  Lumberman,  containing  spe- 
cific complaints  of  car  shortage  and  alleged  discrimination  in  furnishing  cars. 

31-6.  Various  letters  addressed  to  the  American  Lumberman  making  sugges- 
tions as  to  remedies  for  car  shortage  and  insufficient  transportation  facilities. 

Record  file  No.  32. — Hostler,  8.  P.,  president.  Hostler  Coal  and  Coke  Company. 

32.  Letter  from  S.  P.  Hostler,  dated  December  20,  1906,  addressed  to  editor 
Black  Diamond,  Chicago,  111.,  giving  his  views  with  regard  to  the  need  of 
national  and  State  reciprocal-dmnurrage  laws.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

32-1.  Statements  showing  shipments  of  coal  to  Chicago  from  three  different 
mines  in  the  Kanawha  district,  giving  the  date  of  shipment,  date  of  arrival,  aad 
the  number  of  days  in  transit. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  487 

Record  file  No.  SS. — Thompson,  81(Uon,  manager.  Bureau  of  Railroad  \eics,  of 
the  General  Managers'  Association,  Chicago,  III. 

33.  Letter  addressed  to  Commissioner  Hnrlnu,  dated  Docemlwr  24,  190G,  trans- 
mitting following  statements : 

Statement  sliowing  tlie  ton  mileage  of  309  roads  for  the  year  1900  up  to  date, 
increase  in  freiglit  e«|uii>nient.  and  total  car  and  engine  capacity. 

Statement  showing  the  numlK'r  and  tractive  iwwer  of  freight  engines  on 
certain  railways  for  1900  and  190(5,  and  statement  showing  the  number  of 
freight  cars  on  certain  roads  In  1900  and  1906. 

Record  file  No.  54. — Patten,  George  ir..  of   the  firm  of  Bartlett,  Frazier  d 

Carrington. 

34.  Statement  showing  the  delay  In  delivery  of  ears  to  elevator  after  the  dis- 
position order  was  given  and  time  required  to  unload  ears  when  placed. 

Record  file  A'o.  35. — Marcy,  George  E.,  manager,  Armour  Grain  Company. 

35.  Statement  showing  the  time  required  to  raalce  delivery  of  cars  to  elevator 
after  di8i)08ition  order  had  been  given  and  time  witliin  which  such  cars  were 
unloaded  when  placed.     (E.\hibit  No.  1.) 

Record  file  No.  S6. — Stream,  J.  J.,  manager.  South  Chicago  Elevator  Company. 

3G.  Statement  showing  tiie  time  required  to  make  delivery  of  cars  to  the  ele- 
vator after  disiHJsltlon  order  had  been  given  and  time  consumetl  In  unloading 
after  such  cars  were  placed. 

Record  file  No.  37. — Rosenbaum,  E.  P.,  Rosenbaum  Grain  Company. 

37.  Statement  showing  the  number  of  days  taken  by  railroad  in  which  to 
deliver  cars  after  the  dlsi>ositlon  order  was  given  and  time  consumed  in  unload- 
ing after  such  cars  were  placed. 

Record  file  No.  38. — Hudson,  T.  J.,  general  traffic  manager,  lUinols  Central 

Railroad. 

38.  Statement  showing  the  number  of  cars  tiie  Illinois  Central  Railroad  has 
eitlier  built  or  purchastnl  during  the  years  lJ)03-190<j.     (Exhibit  No.  1.) 

38-1.  Comparative  statement  of  traffic  and  facilities  for  June  30,  1890,  and 
June  30,  1905.     (Exhibit  No.  2.) 

Record  file  No.  39. — Postmasters,  North  Dakota  stations. 

39.  Telegrams  from  the  postmasters  of  various  stations  in  North  Dakota, 
regarding  the  fuel  supply  at  said  stations. 

Record  file  No.  40. — Weiscr,  E.  J.,  president.  First  National  Bank  of  Fargo, 

N.  Dak. 

40.  Postal  cards  from  their  corresixHidents  in  North  Dakota,  giving  an  esti- 
mate of  the  i)er  cent  of  the  IJXKJ  crop  still  In  the  farmers'  hands,  the  per  cent  in 
local  elevators,  and  the  per  cent  sblpiied. 

Record  file  No.  41.— Sage,  D.  A.,  Chicago,  III. 

41.  Illinois  Central  Hallroad  Company  tariff  supplement  to  rules  governing 
the  reconslgnment  of  hard  coal,  coke,  and  soft  coal,  carloads,  supplement  No.  3 
to  coal  tarlflf  No.  839. 

Record  file  No.  ^2. — Elliott,  Howard,  president.  Northern  Pacific  Railway  Com- 

pany. 

42.  Telegrams  dated  December  20,  1900,  from  Mr.  Elliott  to  Commissioner 
Lane,  in  regard  to  the  fuel  and  coal  supply  at  North  Dakota  stations. 

Record  file  No.  43. — Kempncr.  I.  H.,  president,  Galveston  Cotton  Exchange  and 
Hoard  of  Trade,  Calveston,  Tex. 

43.  letter  dated  Januarj'  30,  1907.  from  I.  H.  Kempner  to  the  Commission, 
trnnsinlttlng  answers  to  ln<iulrles  submltttnl  by  the  Commission  January  18, 
1907,  as  to  the  handling  of  cotton  at  the  |Kirt  of  Galveston,  and  the  facilities  of 
railroads  and  of  the  Galveston  Wharf  Company  at  Galveston. 


IN  THE  MATTER  OF  CAR  SHORTAGE  AND  OTHER 

INSUFFICIENT  TRANSPORTATION 

FACILITIES 


REPORTS  OF  COMMISSIONERS  LANE  AND  HARLAN 


TESTIMONY  TAKEN  AT  MINNEAPOLIS 

MINN.,  DECEMBER  17,  18,  AND   19,  1906 

AND  AT  CHICAGO,  ILL.,  DECEMBER  20 

AND  21,  1906 


IK  THE  MATTER  OF  CAR  SHORTAGE  AND  OTHER  INSTTFFICIENT 
TRANSPORTATION  FACILITIES. 


Reports  of  Commissioners  Lane  and  Harlan. 

Lane,  Commissioner : 

The  Commission  opened  its  inquiry  into  the  general  subject  of  car 
shortage  in  Minneapolis  on  the  17th  of  December,  1906,  and  con- 
tinued on  the  18th  and  19th  in  that  city  and  on  the  20th  and  21st  in 
Chicago. 

COAL  SHORTAGE  IN  NORTH  DAKOTA. 

Reports  having  reached  the  Commission  of  what  was  termed  a 
"  coal  famine  "  in  North  Dakota,  telegrams  were  sent  prior  to  the 
opening  of  the  hearing  at  Alinneapolis  to  the  postmasters  in  a  large 
number  of  North  Dakota  towns  asking  a  prompt  statement  as  to 
the  need  for  fuel.  The  replies  (which  came  chiefly  from  points  on 
the  Great  Northern  Railway)  were  almost  without  exception  appeals 
for  help.  The  State  was  being  swept  by  a  blizzard  and  no  coal  was 
to  be  had.  There  had  been  some  suifering,  much  was  immediately 
threatened  unless  relief  promptly  came,  and  the  people  were  gravely 
alarmed. 

These  replies  were  read  in  open  session  to  the  managing  officials 
of  the  Great  Northern  and  Northern  Pacific  railways,  who  had  been 
summoned  before  the  Commission,  and  specific  promise  was  received 
that  immediate  relief  would  be  given.  Thereupon  telegrams  were 
again  sent  to  the  towns  interested  stating  the  pledge  made  by  the 
railroad  officials  that  relief  would  be  immediately  forthcoming. 
Throughout  the  sessions  in  Minneapolis  and  Chicago  the  Commis- 
sion kept  in  touch  with  the  situation,  and  from  the  latest  informa- 
tion it  appears  that  all  immediate  danger  of  suffering  from  lack  of 
fuel  has  passed  and  that  the  railroads  have  with  energy  and  prompt- 
ness kept  the  obligation  into  which  they  entered  with  the  people  of 
the  threatened  district  through  the  medium  of  the  Commission. 
With  all  the  effort  that  has  been  made,  however,  there  is  probable 
danger  of  a  recurrence  of  the  distress  if  the  present  policy  of  help- 
fulness is  not  continued  throughout  the  winter. 

For  this  serious  condition  the  railroads  largely  lay  the  blame  upon 
the  country  coal  dealer,  who  was  urged  early  in  the  summer,  they 
claim,  to  forthwith  lay  in  his  winter's  coal  supply.  But  this  advice 
the  coal  dealer  did  not  heed.  He  allowed  the  summer  months  to  pass 
without  ordering  from  the  great  depot  at  Duluth.  Then  came  the 
fall  months,  during  which  an  unusual  and  unexpected  volume  of 
merchandise  moving  westward  filled  the  cars,  which,  emptying  their 
loads  of  grain  at  Duluth  and  Superior,  would  ordinarily  have  car- 
lied  coal  westward  to  the  gi'ain  belt.  Thus  winter  came  upon  an 
unprepared  people. 
488 


CAR   SHOBTAGB.  489 

To  this  charge  the  country  coal  dealer  made  answer  that  neither 
law  nor  custom  required  him  to  order  his  coal  six  months  in  advance 
of  his  needs;  that  it  was  the  duty  of  the  railroad  to  meet  his  demand 
for  cars,  rather  than  the  duty  of  the  coal  dealer  to  accommodate  his 
business  to  the  convenience  of  the  railroad;  that  the  coal  dealers 
were  justified  in  assuming  that  the  railroads  would  be  able  to  trans- 
port, coal  in  the  fall  months  because  in  other  yeai*s  they  had  done  so; 
that  the  small  percentage  of  cars  for  coal  loading  which  the  com- 
panies did  supply,  lay  loaded  upon  side  tracks  or  in  terminals  so 
great  a  percentage  of  the  time  that  they  moved  toward  their  desti- 
nation at  an  average  of  less  than  1  mile  an  hour,  and  often  at  an 
even  lower  rate  of  speed;  that  those  who  did  onler  coal  in  the  sum- 
mer months  were  as  pcmrly  supplied  as  those  who  did  not;  that  the 
railroad  companies  themselves  ilid  not  follow  their  own  counsel,  for 
their  own  reports  reveal  st^rious  shortage  of  company  coal  at  almost 
every  point :  that  pn»ference  over  coal  was  given  to  general  merchan- 
dise and  other  freight  destined  farther  west,  and  that  in  the  mouths 
when  coal  would  ordinarily  have  been  hauled  to  North  Dakota  the 
railroads  were  engaged  in  supplying  coal  from  the  head  of  the  Lakes 
to  the  Montana  smelters  whose  customary  supply  had  been  cut  off  by 
a  strike  in  British  Columbia  mines. 

In  a  telegram  to  the  Commission  dated  December  17,  1906,  Mr. 
Hill,  president  of  the  Great  Northern,  said: 

The  coal  scarcity  In  North  Dakota  is  not  clue  to  want  of  cars.  Thousjinds 
of  empty  cars  have  t>een  moving  from  the  bead  of  Lake  Superior  to  the  grain 
fleids  during  the  fali. 

Mr.  Philbin,  superintendent  of  the  Great  Northern  at  the  head 
of  Lake  Superior,  testified  before  the  Coinmission: 

A  year  ago  we  took  back  to  the  grain  fields  a  good  many  empty  cars,  and 
still  had  enough  cars  for  the  outbound  loading.  The  case  was  different  this 
year.  We  took  back  very  few  enii)ty  cars.  A  very  small  percentage  of  the  cars 
have  gone  west  empty  this  fall. 

It  is  a  fair  inference  from  all  the  testimony  that  the  real  cause  of 
the  coal  .scarcity  in  North  Dakota  was  such  an  abundance  of  west- 
bound traffic  at  the  head  of  the  Lakes  that  cars  were  not  available  in 
the  congested  state  of  that  terminal  for  the  carrying  of  coal  to  North 
Dakota — a  comparatively  short  haul  for  a  low-class  commodity. 

It  was  suggested  that  the  coal  shortage  was  due,  in  part  at  least, 
to  the  presence  of  a  tru.st  or  combination  between  dealers  in  coal,  who 
fixed  prices  in  the  Northwest  and  refu.sed  to  sell  to  "outsiders"  and 
"  irregulars.'-  That  such  a  combination  exists  can  not  be  doubted. 
The  Conunission  has  gained  indisputable  proof  of  an  agreement  be- 
tween coal  dealers  to  maintain  prices  and  to  Iwycitt  all  who  do  not 
so  agree;  but  there  is  no  evidence  at  all  justifying  the  contention  that 
this  combination  is  chargeable  with  the  coal  shortage  prevailing  nor 
that  the  railroads  were  party  in  any  way  to  such  a  conspiracy. 

GRAIN    SITUATION    IN    THE    NORTHWEST. 

The  railroads  tapping  the  great  grain  belt  of  the  Northwest  seem 
to  have  l)een  overwhelmed  by  this  year's  crop,  although,  in  fact,  the 
crop  scarcely  exceeded  that  of  the  year  1005  in  volume,  nor  did  it 
equal  that  oi  at  least  one  other  preceding  year. 


490  CAB  SHORTAGE.  — 

Fifty  million  bushels  of  grain,  as  nearly  as  can  be  estimated,  re- 
main on  the  farms  or  in  the  country  elevators  of  North  Dakota.  But 
38  per  cent  of  the  crop  has  been  shipped.  The  country  or  line  eleva- 
tors at  a  large  number  of  country  stations  are  full.  Some  of  these 
reached  their  capacity  as  early  as  September  and  still  contain  the 
gi'ain  they  then  held.  Thousands  of  bushels  of  wheat  are  lying  at 
this  time  covered  with  snow  in  open  bins  built  beside  the  railroad 
track.  The  farmer  can  not  sell  because  the  country  dealer  can  not 
buy.  The  country  dealer  can  not  buy  because  the  country  elevator 
is  already  full.  The  country  elevator  remains  full  because  the  rail- 
road has  not  moved  the  grain  from  the  country  elevator  to  the  termi- 
nal elevator.  The  terminal  elevators  at  Duluth,  Superior,  and  Min- 
neapolis, which  act  as  great  reservoirs  for  the  line  elevators,  are 
almost  empty,  and  at  no  time  during  the  season  have  they  been  filled 
to  more  than  one-third  of  their  capacity. 

This  unfortunate  chain  of  conditions  has  involved  financial  loss  to 
a  not  inconsiderable  percentage  of  the  population  of  the  Northwest. 
It  is  a  loss  which  begins  with  the  farmer,  but  includes  the  merchant, 
the  grain  dealer,  the  elevator  man,  the  miller,  and  the  railroad.  And 
such  loss  is  to  be  reckoned  in  figures  computed  on  a  basis  of  the  re- 
duced price  upon  millions  of  bushels  of  grain,  for  every  bushel  of 
which  there  is  demand.  The  farmer  has  been  compelled  to  ask  the 
merchant  to  extend  his  credit.  The  merchant,  the  elevator  man,  and 
the  country  dealer  have  been  forced  to  secure  new  and  unusual  loans 
at  the  banks.  The  dealer  who  sold  grain  for  November  deliver}'  has 
failed  to  keep  his  contract  and  "  made  a  loss."  Interest  and  insur- 
ance have  eaten  away  the  profit  of  the  dealei*s,  and  the  price  of  grain 
has  fallen  from  2  to  6  cents  per  bushel  at  a  large  number  of  country 
points. 

No  clearer  evidence  could  be  given  of  the  wealth  of  this  most 
favored  section  of  the  country  and  the  economic  independence  of  its 
population  than  the  simple  fact  that  the  conditions  obtaining  in  the 
Dakotas  and  Minnesota  have  not  amounted  to  a  calamity. 

It  was  the  testimony  of  the  president  of  the  Fii-st  National  Bank  of 
Fargo,  N.  Dak.,  who  presented  to  the  Commission  letters  from  350 
banks  in  that  State  showing  the  extent  to  which  grain  still  remained 
in  the  farmers'  hands,  that  whereas  he  should  not  be  loaning  the 
country  banks  a  single  dollar  at  this  time  of  the  year,  he  had  within 
the  last  sixty  days  extended  his  credits  to  his  correspondents  to  the 
extent  of  $600,000.  The  failure  of  the  carriers  to  move  wheat  has 
had  a  widespread  effect  financially,  causing  a  loss  of  interest,  storage 
charges,  and  insurance,  besides  the  loss  of  wheat  on  the  ground  and 
the  loss  through  depreciation  in  price.  Local  jobbers  are  unable  to 
pay  because  they  are  unable  to  collect,  and  the  farmers  are  unable  to 
find  a  market. 

If  this  condition  was  brought  about  by  an  actual  shortage  of  cars, 
such  defense  was  not  presented  by  the  railroad  officials  who  appeared 
and  testified,  nor  was  it  contended  that  the  crop  of  this  year  ex- 
ceeded expectations  or  was  in  anv  way  abnormal.  All  the  railroads 
of  the  Northwest  (and  some  hauled  more  than  ever  before)  actually 
moved  less  of  this  year's  crop  up  to  the  time  of  the  hearing  than  of 
the  crop  of  1905  during  the  corresponding  months.  These  are  the 
figures:  1905,  116.424,490  bushels;  1906,  97,104,031  bushels,  a  deficit 
in  1906  of  19,000  carloads. 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  491 

The  situation  last  year,  while  not  satisfactory  to  the  shippers,  did 
not  present  the  distressing  features  that  developed  in  1906.  Yet 
in  the  year  1906  both  the  (Jreat  Northern  and  the  Northern  Pacific 
largely  increased  thoir  tK|uipment.  Notwithstanding  this  increased 
equipment,  they  hauled  less  grain,  they  furnished  fewer  cars  to  the 
line  elevators,  and  delivered  fewer  at  the  terminals. 

Neither  Provident  Ilill,  of  the  Great  Northern,  nor  President  Elli- 
ott, of  the  Northern  Pacific,  urged  shortage  of  cars  or  locomotives 
as  an  excuse  for  their  inability  to  handle  the  grain  crop,  but  con- 
fessed with  frankness  that  they  were  using  all  the  cars  that  they 
could  handle.  Thus  what  appeared  to  the  farmer  as  a  car  shortage 
was  not  such  to  the  railroad  man.  To  him  there  was  a  shortage  m 
adequate  terminals,  double  tracks,  side  tracks,  yards,  and  low  grades. 
The  problem,  as  stated  by  him,  was  not  that  of  securing  more  cars, 
but  of  securing  facilities  adequate  to  meet  the  volume  of  business 
which  had  so  greatly  increased  as  to  have  exhausted  the  capacity  of 
the  entire  facilities  of  the  road. 

President  Elliott  said  that  in  attempting  to  handle  the  freight 
oflfered  thev  were  trying  to  force  a  3-inch  stream  through  a  1-inch 
nozzle.  "  The  railroads  have  more  business  than  they  can  handle." 
President  Hill  declared  that  the  railroads  of  the  country,  as  a  whole, 
"  have  not  kept  in  sight  of  the  country's  growth;  "  that  his  road,  as 
well  as  many  others,  was  endeavoring  to  bore  a  1-inch  hole  with  a 
half-inch  auger. 

The  Government  of  this  country  [said  President  Hill]  and  its  growth  and  its 
business  is  against  a  stone  wall  so  high  that  it  can  not  see  the  top  of  it.  No 
man  can  see  the  top  of  it  to-day.  I  have  looked  everywhere,  turned  everywhere, 
to  see  what  can  be  done.  During  the  time  from  1895  to  1905  the  business  of 
the  country,  the  tons  moved  1  mile,  increased  110  per  cent,"  and  the  facilities, 
the  increase  of  facilities  for  doing  the  business  and  handling  the  miles,  in- 
creased 20  per  cent  in  ten  years,  or  2  per  cent  per  annum.  But  of  that  20  per 
cent  three-fourths  of  it  was  new  mileage  that  was  built  In  sections  of  the 
country  that  added  to  the  congestion  of  the  old. 

Now  I  think,  and  I  have  discussed  this  question  with  a  numl)er  of  the  most 
Intelligent  railroad  men  that  I  know — I  have  asked  them  how  much  additional 
mileage  should  bo  built  to  absolutely  relieve  the  country  from  the  situation 
and  difficulty  It  is  laboring  under,  the  unreasonable  delay  of  freight  There 
has  always  to  be  some  delay,  but  not  an  unreasonalile  delay.  They  put  the 
ne<'essary  mileage,  some  as  high  as  50  per  cent  Well,  that  is  out  of  the  ques- 
tion. But  men  who  have  taken  up  the  question  and  thought  about  it  and  tried 
to  work  it  out  win  say  anywhere  from  25  to  33  per  cent  Now,  25  per  cent 
of  new  mileage  would  be  55.000  miles,  and  If  that  is  to  be  built  In  five  years 
It  would  take  11,000  miles  a  year.  But  you  would  have  to  add  one-third  of 
the  mileage  for  terminal  and  passing  tracks.  Add  33  per  cent  to  55.000  and 
it  makes  7.3.333  miles.  Now,  73,000  miles  additional  would  not  be  any  more 
than  is  actually  necessary,  because  I  have  distriltuted  it  over  five  years,  and 
in  five  years,  if  we  are  to  have  crops  at  all  and  if  we  don't  stand  still,  the 
allowance  is  altogether  too  small.  I  do  not  think  the  new  mileage,  the  new 
equipment  and  terminal  facilities  could  be  produced  for  less  than  $75,000  a 
mile  of  main  track,  which  would  amount  to  $5,500,000,000,  or  a  yearly  average 
of  $1,100,000,000. 

Now  that  Is  what  Is  necesssary  to  move  this  stuff,  to  move  the  busineas  of 
this  cout^try,  and  It  Is  not  any  more  than  Is  necessary,  but  it  is  .30  per  cent  or 
40  per  cent  of  the  cost  of  the  civil  war.  and  it  Is  more  money  than  the  T'nited 
States  can  raise.  That  is  the  stone  wall  we  are  up  against  and  foresight  does 
not  look  forward  far  enough  to  get  a  glance  of  It  We  are  up  against  It  until 
it  is  solved. 

The  testimony  of  all  the  railroad  officials  of  the  two  great  trans- 
continental lines  from  the  Lakes  to  the  Pacific  given  in  explanation 
of  the  nonmovement  of  grain  and  of  coal  was  that  they  were  not  so 


492  CAR   SHORTAGE.  '^ 

much  unable  to  furnish  cars  and  locomotives  as  they  were  unable  to 
handle  the  volume  of  traffic  which  was  offered  them,  and  in  this 
respect  they  did  not  regard  their  condition  as  unique.  Theirs  was 
a  plea  in  confession  and  avoidance.  They  were  engaged  in  great 
enterprises  of  improvement  which  would  do  much  toward  relieving 
the  situation  another  season.  They  could  suggest  no  remedy  for  the 
conditions  prevailing  save  such  a  scheme  of  multiplying  tracks  and 
enlarging  terminals  as  would  permit  a  freer  movement  of  trains. 

Many  credible  witnesses  who  appeared  at  both  Minneapolis  and 
Chicago  gave  testimony  that  a  great  and  immediate  improvement 
in  transportation  service  in  the  Northwest  might  be  effected  by  a 
change  in  the  methods  of  use  of  pr&sent  equipment  without  waiting 
for  the  enormously  costly  and  practically  unattainable  improvements 
suggested  by  railway  officials.  The  Commission  was  told  of  loaded 
cars  standing  from  two  to  twenty  days  at  the  points  of  origin;  of 
empty  cars  lost  in  congested  terminals  or  lying  unused,  sometimes 
in  solid  trains,  for  equal  lengths  of  time;  of  engines  broken  down 
from  overwork;  of  trains  torn  in  two  by  heavy  loads;  and  of  train 
crews  working  extremely  long  houi^s  without  rest  although  making 
only  ordinary  mileage.  Grain  receivers  at  Minneapolis  and  Duluth 
presented  long  lists  of  loaded  cars  that  had  been  twenty  or  more 
days  in  moving  250  miles,  and  that  at  Duluth  had  again  been  delayed 
days  and  even  weeks  in  switching  after  arrival. 

All  the  officials  and  employees  of  the  Great  Northern  and  Northern 
Pacific  roads  giving  testimony  agreed  in  saying  that  engines  were  not 
loaded  too  heavily  and  that  a  lightening  of  train  loads  would  not  aid 
them  to  give  better  service.  Yet  one  of  these  same  officials  also  tes- 
tified that  any  increase  in  train  tonnage  would  be  likely  to  be  fol- 
lowed by  the  breaking  of  trains,  and  another  added  strength  to  the 
conclusion  that  tonnage  rather  than  speed  is  the  result  sought  by  tes- 
tifying that  from  ten  to  fifteen  days  is  a  reasonable  time  for  a  car  of 
dead  freight  to  move  350  miles  passing  though  two  division  points. 

Vice-President  Pennington,  of  the  "  Soo  "  road,  took  direct  issue 
with  this  theory  of  railroading,  saj-ing  that  in  periods  of  congestion 
he  found  the  wise  plan  to  be  to  reduce  train  tonnage,  thus  making 
better  speed,  increasing  engine  mileage,  and  actually  moving  more 
tons  of  freight  in  a  month  without  increasing  the  equipment.  Sim- 
ilar testimony  was  given  by  a  number  of  experienced  railroad  men  at 
the  Chicago  hearing.  Two  theories  of  railroad  operation  were  thus 
brought  into  opposition. 

To  many  witnesses  at  both  Minneapolis  and  Chicago  it  was  ob- 
vious that  if  cars  were  made  to  move  faster  and  were  kept  moving 
their  efficiency  would  be  greatly  increased.  Car  shortage,  in  other 
words,  may  result  as  much  from  lack  of  wise  methods  in  handling 
the  cars  which  a  company  possesses  as  from  a  deficiency  in  the  num- 
ber of  cars  or  a  lack  of  tractive  power.  If  engines  are  made  to  haul 
their  maximum,  it  is  manifest  that  their  capacity  is  limited  to  the 
highest  grade  over  which  they  are  compelled  to  pass.  If  trains  are 
made  up  of  so  large  a  number  of  loaded  cars  that  the  engine  is  re- 
duced to  its  minimum  speed,  these  cars  during  their  time  of  transit 
are  withdrawn  from  the  general  car  supply.  From  the  statistics  pre- 
sented it  would  appear  that  the  policy  of  hauling  maximum  loads  on 
long  hauls  is  one  that  produces  dazzling  figures  of  ton  mileage 


CAR   SHORTAGE.  493 

which  should  greatly  gratify  the  railroad  stockholder  did  not  the 
troublesome  problem  arise  of  the  carrier's  duty  to  render  prompt 
service  and  make  the  fullest  possible  use  of  the  railway  and  its  facili- 
ties. Maximum  tonnage  and  maximum  service  are  not  necessarily 
equivalejits.  A  railroad  which  lives  by  virtue  of  a  public  grant  and 
the  exercise  of  quasi  public  powers  is  primarily  obligated  to  discharge 
its  functions  with  an  eye  to  the  welfare  of  the  public  which  it  serves 
and  to  avoid  anv  policy  of  operation  which,  no  matter  how  profit- 
able to  the  stocknplder,  may  result  injuriously  to  its  dependent  com- 
munities. 

The  inquiry  into  car  shortage,  so  far  as  it  affected  the  movement  of 
grain  in  the  Northwest,  justihes  these  conclusions: 

1.  The  Great  Northern  and  Northern  Pacific  roads  did  not  suffer 
by  reason  of  diversion  of  their  cars  to  other  roads;  the  balance  be- 
tween these  and  other  railroads  was  in  favor  of  the  Great  Northern 
to  the  extent  of  2,000  cars  and  of  the  Northern  Pacific  to  the  extent 
of  6,000  CATS. 

2.  Both  roads  had  more  equipment  than  they  had  last  year,  when 
cars  were  furnished  more  promptly,  better  time  was  made,  and  less 
complaint  was  made  by  shippers. 

3.  There  was  less  evidence  of  inability  to  supply  cars  for  loading 
at  comj>etitive  points  than  at  noncompetitive  points. 

4.  Preference  was  shown  to  classes  of  freight  calling  for  a  long 
haul. 

5.  The  elevators  at  terminals  made  no  delays  in  freeing  equipment. 

6.  From  the  standpoint  of  public  service  the  best  possible  use  of 
equipment  is  not  secured  by  a  policy  of  operation  which  subordinates 
time  of  transportation  to  tonnage  transported. 

7.  Improvements  under  way  and  contemplated  will  greatly  enlarge 
the  capacity  of  the  roads  to  handle  their  growing  volume  of  freight, 
but  such  improvements  will  not  relieve  the  needs  of  the  Northwest 
unless  the  roads  pursue  a  policy  of  operation  aimed  specifically  to 
meet  the  needs  of  the  grain  raiser. 

CHICAGO   HEARING. 

The  evidence  taken  at  Chicago  related  to  conditions  at  such  widely 
separated  points  as  San  Francisco,  Galveston,  New  Orleans,  Chicago, 
the  West  Virginia  coal  fields,  the  grain  fields  of  Iowa,  Nebraska, 
Kansas,  and  Oklahoma,  and  the  lumber-producing  regions  of  Oregon, 
Washington,  and  the  various  Southern  States.  Dealers  in  coal, 
grain,  and  luml)er,  whose  operations  extend  throughout  the  country, 
were  present  to  testify,  and  all  told  the  same  story  of  failure  of 
transportation  facilities  and  resulting  commercial  embarrassment 
and  loss. 

It  was  shown  that  mines  in  several  States  have  been  closed  or 
have  operated  to  only  a  portion  of  their  capacity. for  lack  of  car 
service  to  carry  away  the  coal,  just  as  elevators  in  North  Dakota 
have  been  closed  for  lack  of  cars  to  take  away  their  wheat  and  bring 
in  coal. 

Testimony  as  to  conditions  in  the  Southwest  showed  that  in 
Indian  Territory  and  Oklahoma  wheat  and  cotton  are  lying  on  the 
ground  at  the  railway  stations  exposed  to  the  elements,  while  the 
S.  Doc.  333. 5»-2 32 


494  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

terminal  at  Galveston,  to  which  this  ^ain  and  cotton  should  go, 
is  so  congested  Avith  loaded  cars  that  ships  in  the  harbor  are  greatly 
delayed  in  securing  cargoes. 

Immediately  prior  to  the  hearing  at  Chicago  inquiries  were  ad- 
dressed on  behalf  of  the  Commission  to  grain  dealers  at  175  Iowa 
towns,  asking  for  a  st^atement  of  conditions  during  the  present  crop 
year  and  the  eifect  of  failure  of  car  service,  if  any,  upon  financial 
returns  to  grain  buyers  and  farmers.  At  the  hearing  replies  to  these 
inquiries  were  received  from  150  towns.  These  replies  were  prac- 
tically imanimous  in  saying  that  the  car  supply  is  fair  at  competi- 
tive points.  At  noncompetitive  points,  however,  much  complaint 
of  failure  of  car  service  is  made,  the  estimates  of  losses  from  these 
causes  made  by  the  dealers  running  from  $500  to  $5,000  each  for  the 
present  crop  year.  It  is  of  course  evident  that  these  losses  must 
finally  be  borne  by  the  farmers,  as  in  bidding  for  grain  the  dealer=5 
necessarily  take  into  account  all  difficulties  and  expenses  of  storing 
and  marketing  the  grain.  The  inference  raised  by  these  replies, 
that  the  railroads  discriminated  in  favor  of  competitive  points,  is 
strengthened  by  direct  testimony  to  that  effect  from  witnesses  whose 
duties  require  that  they  shall  know  the  conditions  throughout  the 
State  of  Iowa. 

Slowness  of  movement  of  cars  after  being  loaded  is  also  cause  of 
complaint  from  many  of  these  Iowa  points.  Time  of  movement  of 
loaded  grain  cars  from  Iowa  points  to  Chicago  was  shown  to  be  from 
two  to  twenty-five  days.  Very  few  cars  reached  Chicago  in  so  short 
a  time  as  two  days,  and  very  few  consumed  as  much  as  twenty-five 
days.  The  bulk  of  the  movement  seems  to  take  from  four  to  eight 
days,  yet  many  cars  were  from  ten  to  eighteen  days  from  Iowa  to 
Chicago.  Complaint  is  made  that  much  damage  to  grain  is  caused 
by  slow  movement,  especially  to  corn,  which  heats  and  spoils.  A 
few  replies  from  points  in  Illinois  to  the  same  questions  sent  to  Iowa 
were  also  received.  These  shoAv  that  conditions  are  much  alike  in 
the  two  States. 

The  great  grain  dealers  of  Chicago  repeated  this  complaint  of 
slowness  of  movement  of  grain  to  their  elevators,  both  in  the  jour- 
ney to  the  city  and  in  the  switching  operations  after  reaching  the 
city.  To  this  complaint  these  grain  merchants  added  that  shipments 
of  grain  from  Chicago  to  Atlantic  ports  are  greatly  delayed  in  start- 
ing for  lack  of  car  service,  and  are  again  subject  to  such  unprece- 
dented delays  before  reaching  the  ship's  side  that  the  selling  of  gram 
on  contract  for  delivery  at  the  seaboard  is  greatly  interfered  with. 

Representatives  of  the  lumber  mills  of  the  entire  country  as  well 
as  of  the  retail  lumber  dealers  told  the  same  story.  This  industry, 
which  pays  to  the  railroads  a  total  of  over  $170,000,000  a  year  in 
freights,  seems  to  be  an  especial  sufferer  from  the  prevailing  lack  of 
car  service.  At  every  point  mills  find  it  impossible  to  run  to  ca- 
pacity for  the  reason  that  they  are  unable  to  move  their  products. 
Mills  of  the  Southern  States,  as  well  as  of  Oregon  and  Washington, 
are  working  short  time  or  closed  down  entirely,  while  building  op- 
erations in  many  States  are  delayed  for  lack  of  lumber.  All  this  is 
a  serious  loss  to  owners  and  employees,  and  in  some  cases  the  testi- 
mony went  so  far  as  to  show  that  failure  to  secure  needed  transporta- 
tion facilities  has  placed  substantial  concerns  of  fair  financial  strength 
in  danger  of  bankruptcy. 


CAB   SHORTAGE.  495 

Testimony  received  at  Chicago  and  at  Minneapolis,  as  well  as  re- 
ports reaching  this  Commission  from  various  other  points,  gives  rea- 
sonable basis  for  the  statement  that  the  competition  for  cars  between 
shippers  is  being  used  by  minor  employees  of  many  railroads  as  a 
means  of  petty  gi'aft. 

At  the  Minneapolis  hearing  the  notable  feature  was  the  fact  that 
railway  managers  and  shippers  were  in  substantial  agreement  in  their 
testimony  as  to  the  failure  of  the  railways  to  measure  up  to  the  de- 
mands of  the  communities  dependent  upon  them.  Such  conflict  as 
api)ears  in  the  testimony  relatas  to  the  responsibility  for  an  ad- 
mittedly insufficient  service  on  the  part  of  the  railroads  reaching  Min- 
neapolis and  Duluth  from  the  Northwest. 

At  Chicago  no  such  agreement  appears  in  the  testimony  as  to  the 
service  rencliered  by  the  railways  reaching  that  city.  Tne  railway 
managers  were  generally  of  the  opinion  that  their  roads  were  measur- 
ing up  to  the  requirements  of  the  shippers  with  reasonable  succe.ss. 
The  testimony  of  shippers  of  grain,  coal,  lumber,  and  other  commodi- 
ties, however,  told  oi  failure  to  secure  cars  when  needed  and  of  slow- 
ness of  movement  of  cars  when  once  secured  and  loaded,  A  fair 
conclusion  from  this  conflict  in  the  testimony  appears  to  be  that 
railroad  managers  and  shippers  have  widely  varying  ideas  as  to  what 
constitutes  satisfactory  service  by  a  common  carrier. 

The  testimony  showed  such  delays  to  loaded  cars  in  being  switched 
to  points  of  unloading  in  Chicago  and  in  passing  through  Chicago, 
for  shipment  out  to  otlier  cities,  as  would  explain  much  oi  the  failure 
of  car  service  in  that  territory.  Figiires  submitted  by  the  largest 
receivers  of  grain  at  Chicago  show  that  the  average  length  of  time 
required  for  switching  loaded  cars  to  the  elevator  after  notice  of  des- 
tination is  received  by  the  railroad  is  from  three  and  one-half  to  five 
days,  and  for  carload  freight  to  ha  switched  through  Chicago  takes 
from  eight  to  fifteen  days. 

While  several  of  the  railroads  offering  testimony  at  Chicago  and 
Minneapolis  showed  that  they  had  been  unable  to  secure  cars  and 
locomotives  from  builders  as  rapidly  as  they  desired,  only  one  road 
of  those  testifying  had  undertaken  to  build  its  own  equipment.  The 
Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  St.  Paul  Railway  during  the  current  calen- 
dar year  to  Deceml)er  1  built  for  itself  ad  locomotives,  representing 
an  increase  in  its  equipment  of  5^  per  cent,  and  4,000  freight  cars, 
representing  a  net  increase  in  its  equipment  of  8.04  per  cent.  And 
this  was  done  with  a  plant  costing  $1,500,000. 

PROPOSED    REMEDIES. 

Shippers  generally  demand  that  some  remedy  shall  he  found  for 
the  unfortunate  condition  which  prevails.  Those  proposed  vary 
from  the  all-inclusive  proposition  of  Mr.  Hill  that  the  railroads  of 
the  country  must  invest  over  $5,000,000,000  for  the  enlargement  of 
facilities  upon  roads  now  existing  to  the  enactment  of  a  law  by  Con- 
gress which  shall  compel  the  payment  by  railroads  of  a  jjenalty  for 
each  day's  delay  in  furnishing  cars  and  in  transporting  cars  after 
loading. 

Between  the^^^e  two  extremes  are  various  propositions  involving 
either  concerted   action   by   the  railroads,   new    legislation,  or   the 


496  CAB  SHORTAGE. 

expenditure  of  large  amounts  of  money  in  betterments  and  equip- 
ment. There  is  no  division  among  railroad  men,  so  far  as  appears, 
as  to  the  necessity  for  greatly  increasing  terminal  facilities  and  for 
adopting  new  methods  of  handling  freight  at  the  larger  terminals. 
The  congestion  of  traffic  arises  not  at  points  of  origin,  but  either  at 
points  or  destination  or  at  the  terminals  where  freight  is  transferred 
from  one  line  to  another.  This  congestion  has  its  effect  upon  all  lines 
of  railroad  reaching  such  terminals,  for  once  a  terminal  contains 
more  traffic  than  it  can  promptly  handle  and  deliver,  it  acts  as  a  dam 
which  floods  a  constantly  increasing  area  behind  it. 

Reconsianment. — One  of  the  causes  of  congestion  at  terminals  is 
the  reconsignment  privilege  granted  on  many  of  the  principal  articles 
of  freight.  This  is  of  great  vahie  to  shij)pers;  and  what  is  here  said 
is  not  intended  to  in  any  sense  lessen  the  extent  to  which  such  privi- 
lege is  granted  in  necessary  cases;  but  it  is  manifestly  unjust  that 
the  consignee  at  the  terminal  should  be  unable  promptly  to  receive 
his  freight  because  traffic  that  is  destined  elsewhere  encumbers  yards 
and  tracks.  This  is  not  a  slight  nor  an  insignificant  cause  for  the 
slow  movement  of  freight  and  shortage  in  car  service,  and  it  appears 
readily  possible  for  the  railroads  and  shippers  to  remedy  this  condi- 
tion it  they  will. 

A  considerable  body  of  this  traffic  never  should  require  reconsign- 
ment. It  has  become  a  practice  on  the  part  of  many  shippers  to  bill 
their  freight  to  a  reconsigning  point  as  a  matter  of  convenience 
to  themselves  without  respect  to  its  necessity.  This  may  be  checked 
by  the  shipper  of  his  own  motion,  or  where  the  shipper  desires  recon- 
signment, and  the  law  does  not  interfere  therewith,  the  railroads 
may  discourage  it  by  the  imposition  of  a  reasonable  reconsignment 
charge  or  by  limiting  drastically  the  time  allowed  on  reconsignment. 
Or  the  railroads  may — and  the  reason  for  such  a  plan  is  becoming  em- 
phasized more  strongly  every  day  at  all  of  the  larger  terminals — pro- 
vide separate  terminals  outside  cities  at  which  freight  may  be  held 
pending  determination  by  the  shipper  as  to  destination. 

It  was  the  opinion  of  the  leading  operating  official  of  a  western 
road  that  it  is  impossible  to  put  into  effect  a  general  rule  limiting  the 
time  allowed  for  reconsignment,  because  competition  for  traffic  be- 
tween carriers  would  prevent  its  common  adoption  and  enforcement. 
It  was  his  opinion  that  some  superior  authority  should  make  the  rule 
fixing  such  time  limit,  which  should  be  imposed  universally  and 
which  it  should  be  an  infringement  of  law  to  disregard. 

Warehousing  in  cars. — There  are  other  questions  affecting  opera- 
tion upon  which  it  would  be  advisable  that  a  uniform  policy  should 
be  adopted  between  the  railroads,  notably  as  to  the  time  granted 
for  the  unloading  of  cars  by  consignees.  This  privilege,  it  has  been 
contended,  is  one  of  the  most  fruitful  causes  of  car  shortage.  Such 
contention,  wherever  examined  into  in  this  inquiry,  has  been  found 
to  be  without  support.  The  demurrage  accounts  of  the  railroads 
show  that  to  a  very  limited  extent  do  consignees  avail  themselves  of 
the  right  to  hold  cars  as  warehouses  and  pay  demurrage  thereon. 
The  railroads  themselves,  from  lack  of  facilities,  warehouses,  plat- 
forms, and  the  like,  are,  however,  compelled  to  make  far  too  exten- 
sive use  of  cars  for  storage  purposes.  In  one  port  terminal  a  daily 
average  of  10,000  cars  were  so  held  during  several  months  of  last 
year. 


OAR  SHORTAGE.  497 

There  is,  it  would  appear,  little  necessity  for  so  extensive  a  time 
limit  for  unloading  as  is  often  granted.  The  grain  elevators  at  Chi- 
cago promptly  met  the  charge  tnat  they  were  to  blame  for  car  short- 
age by  reason  of  delays  in  unloading  by  showing  from  their  books 
that  over  90  per  cent  of  the  cars  delivered  to  tnem  were  emptied 
the  day  of  delivery,  and  that  all  their  cai-s  were  unloaded  within 
forty -eight  hours,  thus  indicating  that  an  allowance  of  greater  time 
than  two  days  was  unnecessary.  The  coal  men,  who  were  allowed 
five  davs  free  time,  conceded  that  an  allowance  of  forty-eight  hours 
would  be  reasonable. 

If  it  be  true  that  any  considerable  part  of  the  shortage  of  car 
service  from  which  the  country  is  suffering  is  due  to  the  excessive 
and  unneceasary  time  allowed  by  railroads,  it  is  manifestly  within 
the  power  of  the  railroads  themselves  to  correct  such  abuse.  If  the 
railroads,  either  through  fear  of  losing  traffic  to  each  other  or  through 
indifference  or  inability,  to  not  enact  and  enforce  the  needed  rules, 
they  will  not  be  able  to  reasonably  object  should  power  to  make  such 
rules  be  vested  elsewhere.  It  is  to  be  preferred  that  the  railroad 
managements  should  regulate  themselves  in  such  matters  rather  than 
impose  the  taslc  upon  the  Government,  and  it  is  to  be  hoped  that  they 
will  promptly  fina  a  way  to  do  so. 

Proposed  car  clearing  hotcse. — While  it  has  been  found  that  per- 
haps all  of  the  railroads  whose  representatives  appeared  at  this  hear- 
ing are  suffering  from  an  inability  to  supply  cars  promptly,  it  has 
not  been  demonstrated  that,  taking  all  roads  together,  there  is  an 
actual  shortage  of  cars  for  the  service  required.  It  is  the  contention 
of  men  most  conversant  with  existing  equipment  that  there  is  a  suffi- 
cient supply  of  both  cars  and  locomotives  to  meet  present  demands 
were  such  a  plan  adopted  as  would  permit  a  free  interchange  of  cars 
between  railroads  ana  an  arbitrary  and  common  control  of  all  equip- 
ment in  its  handling  and  distribution.  This  is  the  plan  suggested  by 
Mr.  John  W.  Midgley,  of  Chicago,  and  is  commonly  known  as  the 
car  pooling  scheme,  or  more  properly  the  car  clearing  house.  It  has 
the  indorsement  of  such  men  as  Mr.  Stuyvesant  Fish  and  Mr.  E.  H. 
Harriman  and  is  in  use  upon  the  various  lines  comprising  the  Penn- 
sylvania Railroad  System,  the  New  York  Central  lines,  and  the 
Southern  Pacific  System,  but  as  yet  no  two  systems  have  seen  fit  to 
adopt  it  and  subject  the  control  of  their  equipment  to  a  common 
directing  official. 

A  plan  that  works  well  for  a  single  large  system  should  be  found 
practicable  if  extended  ^nerally.  Its  successful  operation  involves 
difficult  problems,  but  with  a  realization  of  the  imperative  need  for 
some  system  by  which  the  activity  of  cars  can  be  stimulated  it  is 
idle  to  say  that  the  proposed  plan  could  not  be  made  effective.  Such 
a  plan,  beneficial  as  it  would  be  if  carried  out  efficiently,  must  depend 
upon  the  agreement  and  coopei-ation  of  the  railroads,  and  the  time  is 
at  hand  when  some  such  modem  and  progressive  method  of  further- 
ing railroad  service  must  be  adopted. 

Car  per  diem. — In  connection  with  the  question  last  treated  it  is 
to  be  noted,  and  that  with  some  emphasis,  that  one  of  the  problems 
which  the  railroad  that  desires  to  deal  honestly  by  the  public  has  to 
meet  is  the  dishonesty  of  its  fellow-camers.  "  Car  appropriation  " 
between  carriers  does  not  seem  to  be  regarded  as  disnonorable  nor 
even  looked  upon  with  great  disfavor. 


498  CAR   SHORTAGE. 

It  is  not  many  years  since  the  railroad  Avhich  originated  freight 
transferred  at  its  junctions  to  the  cars  of  the  connecting  road. 
Each  railroad  was  thus  made  to  supply  its  own  equipment.  This 
was  an  uneconomical  and  time-wasting  method,  and  so  out  of  their 
own  necessities  and  to  give  a  prompter  service  the  railroads  devel- 
oped the  practice  which  generally  obtains  to-day  of  permitting  cars 
to  pass  onto  the  tracks  of  their  connecting  roads  and  making  a  per 
diem  charge  therefor.  Under  this  system  the  present  method  of 
hauling  freight  over  several  connecting  lines  has  made  possible  that 
great  body  of  through  transportation  which  is  perhaps  the  most 
distinctive  feature  of  American  railroading.  Experience  has  proved, 
however,  that  the  rules  governing  the  return  of  ears  were  evaded  to 
such  an  extent  that  not  a  few  railroads  relied  upon  foreign  equip- 
ment for  their  own  needs. 

Realizing  that  a  charge  of  20  cents  per  day  was  insufficient  penalty, 
over  100  railroads  within  this  month  have  raised  the  per  diem  to  50 
cents.  That  this  will  be  effective  in  securing  return  of  cars  to  the 
owning  railroads  during  the  few  months  of  the  year  when  traffic  is 
light  may  be  conceded,  but  that  it  will  insure  return  during  times  of 
great  need  is  not  likely,  for  in  such  times  the  holder  could  earn  per- 
haps ten  times  the  amount  that  he  would  be  compelled  to  pay  by 
using  the  foreign  car. 

A  rule  might  be  adopted  fixing  a  minimum  of  50  cents  per  day 
during  those  months  of  the  year  when  traffic  is  light,  and  increasing 
this  possibly  fourfold  during  the  latter  half  of  the  year,  when  cars 
are  most  needed. 

"While  the  railroads  may  fix  the  price  that  shall  be  charged  for  the 
use  of  their  cars  by  other  roads,  it  may  become  advisable  for  the  pro- 
tection of  those  roads  which,  realizing  their  duties  as  common  car- 
riers, furnish  themselves  with  adequate  equipment  that  power  be 
vested  in  this  Commission  to  make  rules  governing  the  interchange 
of  cars  and  that  Congress  also  enact  a  penal  law  under  which  rail- 
roads may  be  punished  for  confiscation  of  foreign  equipment.  It  is 
submitted  that  the  carriers  themselves  can  not  deal  with  this  problem 
by  raising  the  per  diem  charge  without  seriously  limiting  the  extent 
and  utility  of  through  transportation,  a  contingency  that  would  de- 
moralize the  business  of  the  country.  That  this  matter  of  securing 
the  return  of  cars  to  their  owners  is  not  one  to  be  regarded  indiffer- 
ently is  made  evident  by  the  fact  that  railroads  having  10  per  cent  of 
the  total  mileage  in  one  of  the  States  rely  "  entirely  for  equipment 
upon  foreign  cars. 

Reciprocal  car  demurrage. — The  most  generally  advocated  remedy 
for  the  failure  on  the  part  of  carriers  to  furnish  cars  when  demanded 
is  that  now  generally  .known  as  "  reciprocal  car  demurrage."  This 
phrase  means,  in  a  word,  that  carriers  shall  be  penalized  upon  failure 
to  furnish  cars  demanded,  and  the  phrase  arises  out  of  the  universal 
railroad  practice  of  imposing  a  per  diem  penalty  when  a  car  is  held 
for  unloading  beyond  a  certain  fixed  number  of  days. 

"  It  is  but  equitable,"  the  shipper  urges,  "  that  if  the  railroad  may 
charge  me  for  holding  his  car  because  that  car  is  needed  by  it  in  the 
conduct  of  its  business  that  I  should  be  permitted  to  charge  it  a  stated 
sum  per  day  when  it  fails  to  deliver  to  me  a  car  which  is  necessary 
to  the  conduct  of  my  business." 


CAR   SHORTAfiR.  499 

The  carrier  disavows  any  intentitui  u>  profit  bv  the  delay  of  the 
consignee  in  unloading  his  freight,  l)ut  justifies  its  demurrage  rule 
upon  the  ground  that  only  by  such  charge  can  the  consignee  be  led 
l)roniptly  to  free  equipment.  The  shipper  in  turn  urges  that  such 
reciprocal  demurrage  as  might  l)e  exacted  would  not  compensate  for 
the  loss  of  the  car  at  the  time  needed,  but  is  intended  rather  to  stimu- 
late the  railroad  into  more  promptly  providing  the  car  which  it  is 
its  legal  duty  to  furnish. 

Some  commercial  bodies,  advocating  this  general  principle,  favor 
the  enactment  of  a  law  by  Congress  dealing  directly  with  the  sub- 
ject, while  others  favor  an  enlargement  of  uie  powers  of  the  Inter- 
state Commerce  Conunission  under  which  this  Dody  shall  have  au- 
thority to  make  proper  anil  necessary  rides,  which  may  be  enforced 
through  the  courts  under  penal  provisions  similar  to  those  now  incor- 
porated in  the  act  to  regulate  interstate  commerce.  Each  method  of 
j>rocedure  has  been  followed  in  the  legislation  of  the  States.  The 
statute  of  Texas  is  an  illustration  of  one  method,  and  the  rules 
framed  by  the  conunissions  of  I^uisiana,  Florida,  Mississippi,  North 
Carolina,  and  Vivginia  are  illustrations  of  the  other. 

It  is  to  us  evident  and  beyond  all  controversv  that  the  difficulties 
with  which  the  business  of  transportation  is  anected  in  this  country 
at  the  present  time  would  not  be  overcome  by  the  enactment  of  a 
reciprocal  demurrage  bill  alone  if  such  measure  merely  provided  for 
punishing  the  railroad  for  nonplacing  of  cars  or  nonmovement 
thereof.  The  problem  is  one  much  deeper  and  much  broader  than  a 
mere  lack  of  cai*s  and  engines.  No  doubt  an  inadequate  supply  of 
these  facilities  is  the  cause  of  all  the  troubles  which  beset  the  ship- 
ping public  on  certain  lines.  But  these  instances  are  few.  The 
problem  of  car  shortage  is  one  in  which  is  involved  every  factor  in 
railroading — the  construction,  the  operation,  the  maintenance,  and 
the  financing  of  the  railroads.  The  inability  of  the  shipper  to  secure 
a  car  may  be  but  a  symptom  of  a  deep-seated  and  organic  trouble. 

The  real  cause  of  car  shortage  may  lie  in  the  too  conservative  char- 
acter of  the  management  of  the  road  or  in  the  unfitness  and  incom- 
petency of  its  operating  officials.  It  may  flow  from  an  incompre- 
hension on  the  part  of  trie  directors  of  the  full  duty  imposed  by  law 
upon  a  common  carrier.  It  may  arise  out  of  a  policy  in  railroad 
operation  which  gives  primary  consideration  to  speculative  stock 
operations.  It  may  come  from  an  inability  to  secure  funds  to  so  fit 
itself  that  it  can  discharge  its  duty.  It  may  follow  in  a  time  of 
exceptional  prosi)erity  from  an  increase  in  traffic  which  could  not 
reasonably  have  been  anticipated.  Or  it  may  result  from  an  inability 
to  secure  lalK)r  and  materials  necessary  to  the  j)roper  enlarging  of  the 
railroad's  facilities.  This  enumeration  of  causes  is  not  exhaustive. 
It  could  not  well  be  complete  without  giving  consideration  to  many 
industrial  and  economic  factors  which  at  first  glance  would  appear 
remote  and  unrelated.  Clearlv  the  problem  of  transportation  is  so 
closely  interwoven  with  the  fabric  or  our  conmiercial  system,  and  so 
closely  related  and  so  interdependent  are  the  various  activities  of  our 
industrial  life  that  one  may  not  lightly  say  what  are  the  multitudi- 
nous considerations  which  necessarily  enter  into  so  simple  a  question 
'as  the  reason  why  a  railroad  car  is  not  at  once  forthcoming  when 
ordered. 


500  CAE   SHORTAGE. 

The  enactment  of  a  reciprocal  demurrage  bill  will  not  build  rail- 
road track,  equipment,  enlarge  and  simplify  terminals,  nor  transform 
incompetent  operating  officials  into  first-class  railroad  men,  but  it 
might  stimulate,  energize,  and  in  some  cases  revolutionize  the  methods 
of  delinquent  railroads  so  that  they  would  render  the  service  which 
they  were  created  to  render.  This  is  the  theory  of  reciprocal  demur- 
rage. But  that  of  itself  it  will  enable  the  railroads  to  render  ade- 
quate service  is  not  demonstrated  by  experience. 

Perhaps  the  most  serious  congestion  that  exists  at  any  terminal  in 
the  United  States  to-day  is  to  be  found  in  Galveston — in  a  State 
suffering  seriously  from  car  shortage,  but  in  which  there  is  on  the 
statute  books  one  of  the  simplest  reciprocal  demurrage  laws  to  be 
found  in  the  United  States.  In  a  statement  by  Hon.  O.  B.  Colquitt, 
of  the  railroad  commission  of  Texas,  is  found  this  pregnant  passage : 

We  have  a  law  in  Texas  which  provides  that  shippers  may  malie  statutory 
requisition  for  cai-s,  depositing  one-fourth  of  the  freight  charge  from  point  of 
origin  of  the  freight  to  its  destination,  and  when  such  requisition  is  made  the 
car  must  be  furnished  within  a  specified  time  or  else  the  railroad  company  must 
pay  to  the  party  making  the  requisition  denmrrage  at  the  rate  of  $25  per  day. 
This  demurrage  is  reciprocal,  and  where  the  shipper  or  the  consignee  does  not 
unload  such  car  within  forty-eight  hours  after  same  is  delivered  demurrage  at 
the  rate  of  $25  a  day  runs  against  the  consignee. 

Our  court  of  civil  appeals  in  suits  brought  by  individuals  for  damages  has 
held  that  under  this  law  the  railroad  company  can  not  be  compelled  to  furnish 
cars  for  loading  where  the  destination  of  shipment  is  beyond  the  line  of  the 
originating  road.  Acting  under  this  construction  of  the  law,  the  Texas  rail- 
roads are  refusing  to  furnish  cars  to  be  loaded  when  the  destination  of  the  ship- 
ment is  beyond  their  line.  When  shipments  are  accepted,  the  cars  are  held 
at  junction  points,  where  the  originating  line  requires  loads  to  be  transferred 
or  their  connecting  line  to  furnish  them  with  an  empty  car  for  every  loaded 
car  so  tendered  at  such  junction  points.  The  result  is  that  at  junction  points 
there  are  many  cars  tied  up  with  loads  waiting  for  transfer  or  exchange  of  an 
empty. 

The  great  quantity  of  commerce  going  to  the  port  of  Galveston  from  the 
interior  of  Texas,  as  well  as  from  Oklahoma,  Kansas,  and  Nebraska,  much  of 
which  is  originated  on  railroads  that  terminate  in  the  interior  and  have  to 
depend  on  their  connections  reaching  Galveston  to  make  port  of  delivery,  and 
the  originating  lines  refusing  to  let  their  loaded  cars  go  to  port  destinations, 
thus  forcing  the  unloading  of  such  cars  at  interior  junction  points,  first  pro- 
duced a  blockade  of  cars  at  such  points,  and  so  tied  up  several  thousand  cars 
on  side  tracks  in  enforced  idleness  beyond  the  length  of  time  which  it  would 
have  required  such  cars  to  be  transported  to  destination  and  returned. 

This  congestion  at  jimction  points  soon  extended  to  Galveston, 
where  it  was  aided  greatly  by  a  new  policy  which  the  Texas  roads 
had  adopted  of  shipping  cotton  to  the  port  in  mixed  consignments, 
thus  necessitating  the  unloading  and  sorting  of  such  shipments  be- 
fore delivery  could  be  made. 

Manifestly  it  is  of  little  value  to  a  shipper  to  be  given  a  car  if  that 
car,  when  loaded,  is  not  moved  promptly  to  destination.  Therefore 
the  conclusion  is  inevitable  that  reciprocal  demurrage  alone  will  not 
insure  better  railroad  service  when  the  movement  is  over  more  tlian 
one  system  of  railroad.  Such  a  law  or  rule  must  be  supplemented  by 
some  other  rule  or  law  under  which  the  originating  carrier  may  be 
insured  of  prompt  return  of  the  cars  which  it  delivers  to  its  connec- 
tions. 

The  traffic  of  this  country  can  not  be  moved  in  the  fashion  which* 
obtained  in  the  early   days  of  railroading,  when  transfers  were 


GAB   SHOBTAQE.  501 

universal  at  junction  points.  "\Mien  the  railroad  is  penalized  for  not 
placing  a  car  at  a  snipper's  warehouse  or  elevator  it  will  protect 
itself  against  the  loss  oi  that  car  by  refusal  to  permit  it  to  pass 
beyond  its  control  unless  it  can  be  given  another  car  in  its  steaa,  or 
unless  some  svstem  is  devised  similar  to  that  of  the  car  pool  under 
which  its  needs  for  cars  may  be  promptly  met. 

It  will  profit  those  who  are  seeking  to  remedy  the  shortage  in  car 
service  by  means  of  the  imposition  of  reciprocal  demurrage  to  con- 
sider well  the  decision  of  the  United  States  Supreme  Court  in 
Houston  and  Texas  Central  Railroad  Company  v.  Mayes  (200  U.  S., 
321).  This  case  involved  the  applicability  of  the  Texas  law  to  inter- 
state commerce.  Mr.  Justice  Brown,  in  delivering  the  opinion  of  the 
court,  said : 

While  there  Is  much  to  be  said  in  favor  of  laws  oonii)elling  railroads  to  fur- 
nish ade*iuate  facilities  for  the  trans|K)rtation  of  both  freight  and  paRsengers 
and  to  reuulate  the  jreneral  subject  of  si)ee<l.  length,  and  fretiueney  of  stops,  for 
the  heating,  lighting,  and  ventilation  of  passenger  cars,  the  furnishing  of  food 
and  water  to  cattle  and  other  live  stock,  we  think  an  absolute  re<iuiren>ent  that 
a  railroad  shall  furnish  a  certain  nunil>er  of  cars  at  a  specified  day,  regardless 
of  every  other  consideratlbn  except  strikes  and  other  public  calamities,  tran- 
scends the  police  power  of  the  State,  and  amounts  to  a  !)urden  uix)n  Interstate 
commerce.  It  makes  no  exceptions  in  cases  of  a  sudden  congestion  of  traffic 
and  actual  inability  to  furnish  cars  by  reason  of  their  temiK)rary  and  un- 
avoidable detention  in  otlier  States  or  in  other  places  within  the  same  State. 
It  makes  no  allowance  for  interference  of  traffic  occasioned  by  wreck  or  other 
ac<'ldent  upon  the  same  or  other  roads.  Involving  a  detention  of  traffic,  the 
breaking  of  bridges,  accidental  fires,  washouts,  or  other  unavoidable  conse- 
lueuce  of  heavy  weather. 

♦  •  •  •'•  •  * 

While  railroad  companies  may  be  bound  to  furnish  sufficient  cars  for  their 
usual  and  ordinary  traffic,  cases  will  inevitably  arise  where,  by  reason  of  an 
unexi)ecte<l  turn  in  the  market,  a  great  public  gathering,  or  an  unforeseen  rush 
of  travel,  a  pressure  uixju  the  road  for  transjiortatlon  facilities  may  arise 
which  good  management  and  a  desire  to  fulfill  all  its  legal  requirements  can 
not  provide  for  and  against  which  the  statute  in  question  makes  no  allowance. 

Although  it  may  be  admitttHl  that  the  statute  Is  not  far  from  the  line  of 
proper  iwlice  regulation,  we  think  that  sufficient  allowance  is  not  made  for  the 
practical  difficulties  In  the  administration  of  the  law  and  that,  as  applied  to 
Interstate  commerce.  It  transcends  the  legitimate  |K)wers  of  the  legislature. 

(Mr.  Justice  "NMiite  not  participating:  the  Chief  Justice,  Mr.  Jus- 
tice Harlan  and  Mr.  Justice  McKenna  dissented.) 

There  is  nothing  in  this  decision  which  justifies  the  conclusion  that 
a  reciprocal  demurrage  bill  or  rule  governing  interstate  commerce 
can  not  Ije  so  drawn  as  to  come  within  the  ruling  of  the  court  and  the 
principles  declared  in  the  opinion  of  the  learned  justice.  Clearly, 
nowever,  in  justice  to  the  carriers  and  in  conservation  of  all  the  in- 
dustrial interests  of  the  country  which  use  the  railroads,  whatever 
plan  may  be  adopted  to  penalize  the  railroads  for  the  nonfurnishing 
of  cars  must  be  supplemented  by  some  provision  of  law  or  plan  of 
cooperative  operation  by  which  the  railroads  may  be  secure  in, permit- 
ting cars  to  pass  to  the  tracks  of  connecting  lines.  If  thfs  be  not 
done,  each  carrier  will  live  unto  itself  and  will  find  it  to  its  own  inter- 
est to  confine  its  cars  to  its  own  tracks. 

If  the  Interstate  Commerce  Commission  is  to  be  vested  with  power 
to  make  rules  under  which  railroads  shall  be  required  upon  penalty 
to  furnish  cars  to  shippers,  this  Commission  .should  also  be  empow- 
ered to  make  rules  under  which  free  interchange  of  cars  shall  be 


502  CAB   SHORTAGE. 

effii^ted  or  to  require  railroads  engaging  in  interstate  commerce  to 
make  such  rules  for  their  own  protection  and  provide  for  their  en- 
forcement. 

Throughout  this  inquiry  the  thought  has  repeatedly  suggested 
itself  that  many  of  the  problems  presented  must  rest  for  their  solu- 
tion in  the  character  and  intelligence  of  the  railroad  managers — 
their  foresight,  initiative,  adaptability,  and  public  spirit.  If  it  be 
true,  as  railroad  men  have  said,  that  the  railroads  have  not  kept 
pace  with  the  ^owth  of  the  country,  it  must  be  remembered  that  it 
IS  within  the  right  of  a  private  enterprise  to  restrict  its  obligations 
to  its  known  capacity  without  becoming  subject  to  the  slightest 
criticism,  whereas  the  measure  of  a  common  carrier's  obligations  is 
undetermined  and  without  limitation  save  in  the  demand  of  the 
public  for  transportation.  "NMiatever  of  criticism,  therefore,  is  to  be 
expressed  should  in  justice  be  tempered  by  a  consciousness  of  the 
novel  and  perhaps  unparalleled  difficulties  which  the  problem  of 
American  railroad  transportation  to-day  presents. 

This  demand,  however,  the  shipping  and  producing  public  is  cer- 
tainly justified  in  making — that  every  railroad  shall  do  its  utmost, 
not  alone  in  and  of  itself,  but  by  community  of  action  with  other 
roads,  to  render  the  service  which  is  imperatively  needed,  and  shall 
act  in  supreme  good  faith  in  endeavoring  to  organize  and  equip  itself 
for  such  service.  Methods  which  were  sufficient  to  fully  meet  the 
needs  of  the  largely  localized  traffic  of  a  few  years  since  are  at  this 
time  properly  subject  to  reexamination.  Policies  which  hitherto 
have  sufficed,  if  found  satisfactory  to  the  most  exacting  of  stock- 
holders, should  now  be  reconsidered  with  respect  to  the  requirements 
of  new  conditions  and  much  broader  considerations.  The  most  con- 
servative critic  must  hold  that  proper  coordination  of  departments 
within  individual  roads  and  intelligent  cooperation  between  inde- 
pendent roads,  within  entirely  lawful  lines,  would  leave  far  less 
foundation  for  criticism  of  car  service  than  may  at  present  be  justly 
made. 

Harl A  N ,  Com  missianer : 

Little  need  be  added  to  what  is  said  by  Commissioner  Lane  in  his 
report  on  the  car-shortage  investigation.  The  evidence  adduced  be- 
fore us  at  Minneapolis  and  Chicago  clearly  established  these  facts: 

1.  The  inability  of  the  carriers  in  the  Northwest  and  in  some 
other  parts  of  the  country  to  move  the  traffic  ready  for  shipment  not 
only  results  in  financial  loss  to  the  particular  shipper,  but  is  reflected 
back  in  some  cases  to  the  business  and  prosperity  of  entire  communi- 
ties. In  individual  cases  the  loss  thus  suffered  is  substantial  and 
often  severe  and  the  aggregate  must  be  very  large. 

2.  The  railroad  companies  in  order  to  meet  the  demands  of  in- 
creased traffic  are  making  huge  expenditures  of  money  for  additions 
to  their  car  and  locomotive  equipment,  the  enlargement  of  their  ter- 
minal facilities,  and  the  extension  of  their  trackage. 

3.  The  evidence  seems  to  amount  to  a  demonstration  that  there  can 
and  ought  to  be  improvement  in  the  car  service  and  in  the  operation 
of  terminals.  It  was  conceded  both  by  the  railroad  men  and  by  the 
shippers  who  came  before  us  that  cars  are  constantly  used  by  shippers 
as  warehouses,  and  that  the  time  allowed  to  shippers  for  loading  and 


CAR    SHORTAGE.  503 

unloading  is  in  excess  of  real  necessity  and  to  some  extent  is  respon- 
sible for  the  congestion  at  terminals  and  the  consequent  car  shortage 
at  points  on  the  line.  There  was  evidence  offered  at  Chicago  tending 
to  show  that  the  reconsignment  privilege  granted  by  the  carriers  to 
coal  dealers  is  often  abused.  It  was  agreed  by  the  shippers  as  well 
as  by  the  railroad  men  that  these  privileges  should  be  curtailed. 

4.  It  is  reasonably  clear  that  there  can  be  immediate  improvement 
in  the  switching  of  cars  in  and  out  of  terminals.  The  delay  of  many 
days  in  setting  a  cju"  at  the  unloading  point  and  in  getting  the  loaded 
car  out  of  the  switching  district  and  on  its  way  to  destination  is  often 
not  only  unexplained,  but  apparently  inexcusable. 

Refoiin  in  most  of  thest»  matte»-s  lies  wliolly  in  the  hands  of  the 
railroad  companies  and  the  shippers  themselves.  Possibly  if  more 
extensive  powers  were  lodged  in  the  Commission  in  dealing  with  ter- 
minal conditions  it  might  result  advantageously. 

The  efficacy  of  the  proposed  recii)rocal  demurragi^  legislation  was 
not  satisfactorily  demonstrated  by  the  witnesses  who  appeared  before 
us.  In  my  jud<>:ment,  such  a  measure  ought  to  have  very  full  consid- 
eration before  being  enacted.  It  seems  not  improbable  that  if  the 
railroads  are  ixMjalized  by  Federal  legislation  for  failing  to  supply 
cars  for  intei*state  conmierce,  the  local  commerce  of  the  States  in 
times  of  stress  may  be  wholly  neglected  by  the  carriers  in  order  to 
avoid  such  penalties,  unless  the  Federal  legislation  is  promptly  fol- 
lowed by  State  legislation  of  the  same  nature.  Such  legislation  with- 
out providing  also  for  the  compulsory  interchange  of  cars  would  tend 
to  compel  carriei*s  to  keep  all  their  cars- on  their  own  tracks  in  order 
to  avoid  demurrage  peiuilties,  and  thus  break  up  the  advantages  now 
enjoyed  by  shifvpers  of  throu|!:h  transportation.  Some  railroad  men 
of  prominence  appearing  berore  us  seemed  to  think  that  the  more 
effective  regulation  of  the  interchange  of  cars  by  carriers  would  of 
itself  go  far  toward  remedying  the  present  car  shortage.  There 
seem  to  l)e  strong  reasons  for  thinking  that  the  pro])osed  car  pool  or 
car  clearing  house  would  result  in  a  more  effective  car  service.  If 
some  such  adjustment  can  not  be  reached  by  the  companies  them- 
selves, it  may  be  that  legislation  will  become  desirable  and  necessary. 


INDEX. 


VOLUME  I. 
Testimony  taken  at —  T*m^ 

Minneapolis,  Minn.,  Dooember  17,  inOG 6-02 

Minneapolis,  Minn..  I)<H-ember  18,  1906. 9a-lft4 

Minneapolis,  Minn..  I>e<-eml>or  19,  1906. 1»4-:M)7 

Chicago,  111.,  Docemlwr  20,  190G 308-4:{6 

Chicago,  HI.,  December  21,  1906 436-479 


Anderson,  M.  C 376 

Barr,  W.  B __ 449 

Bell,  F - 147 

Berrv,  A.  L 444 

Biddle.  W.  B 311 

Billings,  E 173 

Blair.  M.  S ._ -^ 98 

Blanchard.  E.  C 43 

Bowen,  L.  W ^^ !___  155 

Boyd,  E.  B J li 463 

Bradley.   James 460 

Carlblom.  A.  M ' 175 

Cockey,  W.  P 105 

Costello,  W.  J 94 

Curry.  H.  M 279 

Daly.  John  M 349 

Defebaujih.  .T.  E 423 

De  Veau.  James 280 

Dickinson.   F.   H 126 

Dieson.  A.  O '. Z- 68 

Dooley,   M.  J — - Z .  130 

Earl,   H.   G 412 

Egeland,  A.  E .'_ 129,135 

Elliott  Howard 281 

Emerson.  G.  H 278 

Grover,   H.   S 166 

Harris.  I.  H 121 

Harwood.  F.  H ^ 469 

Hawley,  A.  H ^ 257 

Heiner,   E.   E &i 

Hill,  J.  J 2»l 

Holland.  W.  G 31 

Horn,  H.  J 216,271 

Hostler,  S.  P 430 

Hotchkl8.s.  G.  W 441 

Hudson,  T.  J . 476 

Jamme.  L.  T 6,276 

Kassebaum.   A.    S —— ...  Ill 

Kelley.  F.  A 197 

Krutschnitt,   J_ 882 

Larson,  D 143 

605 


506  INDEX. 

Lavalley.  J.  L 198 

Ix)ftus,  G.  S 253 

McCanna,  C.  D 125 

McKenna,  E.  W 321 

Major,  O.  G 26 

Marcy,  G.  E 457 

Midgley,  J.  W 336 

Moore,  H.  B 12 

Patten,  George  W- ^ 452 

Pennington.    E 244 

Phelan,  J.  E i 179 

Philbln,  D.  M 03,81 

Powers.  J 177 

Richards,  I.  B 271 

Rosenbaum,  E.  F . 473 

Sanford,  C.  W 331 

Saunders,  E.  N 76 

Slade,  G.  T 200 

Silencer,  George 24 

Stickney,  W.  M 415 

Stream,  J.  J 461 

Swanson,  A.  E 112 

Thompson,  Slason 436 

Thornton,  C.  H 193 

Vigness,  R.  M 132 

Warner,  J.  M 407 

Weiser,  E.  J 118 

White,  C.  P 72 

Willard,  D 396 

Winter,  G.  B 267 


u 


